Author Topic: 5G will kill us all? Seriously??  (Read 1859 times)

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Offline Mecanix

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5G will kill us all? Seriously??
« on: May 19, 2020, 05:42:18 pm »
haha sorry for the click bait title ;)

Just got bumped by YT's recommendation(?!) over to some pretty wicked and disturbing conspiracies about 60Ghz attacking molecular structures, having the potential to suffocate and even kill remotely.... among other nasties being unofficially discussed and broadcast all over that platform. I am a bit shattered(lol), not much by the fud attempt but by the sort of YT content regular folks (and kids) are being exposed too.

Seriously though, just want to ask our "real industry experts" (you, Sir) what is the official version. Any views on that subject? Worries? testaments being drafted?!

Thanks for sharing guys
« Last Edit: May 19, 2020, 05:44:51 pm by Mecanix »
 

Online madires

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Re: 5G will kill us all? Seriously??
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2020, 06:05:08 pm »
Many years ago I worked for a WLL carrier with base stations in the 3.5 and 26 (could be also 24 or 28) GHz bands. If the current nonsense would be true we would have been extinct back then. >:D
« Last Edit: May 19, 2020, 06:07:47 pm by madires »
 

Offline Gyro

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Chris

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Offline jjoonathan

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Re: 5G will kill us all? Seriously??
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2020, 06:26:55 pm »
Tomorrow's RF technology always concentrates in today's shit bands, because dealing with said shit is easier than fighting Big Co or Big Gov knuckleheads for access to prime spectrum. 60GHz is the next shit band on the list. That's all there is too it.

Shortwave radio: these bands were initially considered shit because they didn't travel as far as the long ones. Then people figured it out and they became wildly popular.

2.4GHz: designated shit band for microwaves & such to barf noise into. It's no mistake that wifi happened here.

60GHz: shit for long distance communication because oxygen absorbs here. The next logical home for innovation.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2020, 06:31:45 pm by jjoonathan »
 
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Offline Mecanix

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Re: 5G will kill us all? Seriously??
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2020, 06:33:49 pm »
@madires - glad you made it to tell ;)

@Chris thanks for linking up. Missed it. Although I'm not comfortable with the two top videos in that thread being now offline for "Rule Violations". What's going on what's going on man!!!
Let's see how long it takes for the Aliens to land in my backyard and take me away for raising up that subject lol

Any one of you who've done lab research on the bio-vs-high freq at the molecular level please let us know, share, I'd really like to see some genuine test data... out of curiosity of course, not planning some freak weapon or anything like that
 

Offline Mecanix

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Re: 5G will kill us all? Seriously??
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2020, 06:39:03 pm »
60GHz: shit for long distance communication because oxygen absorbs here.

That is exactly what the conspiracy was about "1st ever 5G launched was in Wuhan China, folks seen literally collapsing not long after (total lack of oxygen), scientists/expert claim inconsistency with pneumonia symptoms, yadayada, a new virus is born". Pretty worrying stuff... obviously can't be taken seriously unless "DATA" is made available which I've struggled to find, if any at all. Seems like a secret...

When alien abduction? just need to know so I can stop eating 24hrs before
« Last Edit: May 19, 2020, 06:43:59 pm by Mecanix »
 

Offline Gyro

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Re: 5G will kill us all? Seriously??
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2020, 06:40:15 pm »
@Chris thanks for linking up. Missed it. Although I'm not comfortable with the two top videos in that thread being now offline for "Rule Violations". What's going on what's going on man!!!
Let's see how long it takes for the Aliens to land in my backyard and take me away for raising up that subject lol

Ah, yes, oops. Irrc, they were by Covid conspiracy phone mast burning morons (hoping that bag of worms stays back below the radar). They weren't of any value anyway.
Chris

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Offline Mecanix

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Re: 5G will kill us all? Seriously??
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2020, 06:58:56 pm »
A n y w a y, here more of the same you've already seen I'm sure. That's the one I've been pushed (by YT?) to watch... dummies, can't sleep now lol

Not too involved in radio myself, thought I'd ask the pro or see if anyone had any 'half-genuine' looking data to share. That'd be cool.
Thanks guys

{vid removed} or shall I say {unofficial bs removed} instead


« Last Edit: May 19, 2020, 07:17:44 pm by Mecanix »
 

Offline Gyro

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Re: 5G will kill us all? Seriously??
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2020, 07:05:05 pm »
Please, no. Just no. Totally discredited. :palm:

I don't see this thread lasting.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2020, 07:06:52 pm by Gyro »
Chris

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Offline jjoonathan

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Re: 5G will kill us all? Seriously??
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2020, 07:11:04 pm »
60GHz: shit for long distance communication because oxygen absorbs here.

That is exactly what the conspiracy was about "1st ever 5G launched was in Wuhan China, folks seen literally collapsing not long after (total lack of oxygen)

My RF skills are home grown but by molecular physics expertise is formal and professional.

What the hell do they think 60GHz photons are doing to the oxygen? Transmuting it? If it were this easy to transmute elements, fusion would be trivial, and this little event of theirs would have released or absorbed enough energy to melt Earth's crust and blow the flaming pieces into space. 60GHz photons are orders of magnitude too weak even to upset the electrons, let alone the nucleus. This is going to be, at most, a rovibrational absorption. The photon hits the oxygen molecule and... wait for it... it spins. Or wiggles. Or both. But it probably just spins.

Since the oxygen molecule is already swimming in an ocean of spinning and wiggling molecules, because that's what it means for a gas to have a temperature above zero, the slight increase in spin and wiggle of the struck oxygen molecule quickly get transferred to its neighbors ("thermalized"), raising the ambient temperature by approximately nothing -- an equal "approximately nothing" to the original energy content of the photon divided by the specific heat of air.
 
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Offline Mecanix

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Re: 5G will kill us all? Seriously??
« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2020, 07:19:56 pm »
Please, no. Just no. Totally discredited. :palm:

I don't see this thread lasting.

oh I see... that bad huh lol. Wiped out that nonsense, let see how it goes.
If indeed true what they say then it was a pleasure talking to you here, Chris, see you in another life  ;D
« Last Edit: May 19, 2020, 07:24:59 pm by Mecanix »
 

Offline Mecanix

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Re: 5G will kill us all? Seriously??
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2020, 07:24:32 pm »
"approximately nothing" to the original energy content of the photon divided by the specific heat of air.

Appreciate the time you took to respond, extremely informative and good pointers already. I'll try to find one or two hours tomorrow (when home) and look into this deeper, I'll possibly snip some of the keywords you've kindly put up for us and see where this bring.  :-+
 

Offline Gyro

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Re: 5G will kill us all? Seriously??
« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2020, 07:35:38 pm »
Please, no. Just no. Totally discredited. :palm:

I don't see this thread lasting.

oh I see... that bad huh lol. Wiped out that nonsense, let see how it goes.
If indeed true what they say then it was a pleasure talking to you here, Chris, see you in another life  ;D

Sorry for the short answer, I watched as much of the video as I could bear, same old stuff. Please take the time to read through the other thread I linked, it been has pretty much done to death there already.
Chris

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Offline Mecanix

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Re: 5G will kill us all? Seriously??
« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2020, 07:49:42 pm »
Sorry for the short answer, I watched as much of the video as I could bear, same old stuff. Please take the time to read through the other thread I linked, it been has pretty much done to death there already.

No worries, my bad after all.

Watched up to until he start using reversed psychology, 2.5min mark or something and moved onto the next on the list (again, pushed by YT as recommended-for-you, wtf) and nearly fell to sleep. That's what brought me here instantly... where better place to find that "genuine engineer" to ask than here. Long story short that's about it...

I've peeked in the other thread, yet seen scientific evidence(s) nor data so that's going to be a hard nut to crack.

Grateful to Jonathan for the pointers so far. Surprise... you have a physician on your forum!  :-+ :-+
 

Offline Gyro

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Re: 5G will kill us all? Seriously??
« Reply #14 on: May 19, 2020, 08:03:39 pm »
That's the problem, there is no scientific evidence of a link, only non or pseudo-scientific conspiracy theory. There is plenty of scientific evidence to the contrary as jjoonathan has intimated.

Added to which, 5G uses the same frequency bands as terestrial TV (some of the spectrum cleared out for it) and wifi, and at similar or lower power levels.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2020, 08:06:16 pm by Gyro »
Chris

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Offline Mecanix

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Re: 5G will kill us all? Seriously??
« Reply #15 on: May 19, 2020, 08:18:06 pm »
Sensitive subject I'm feeling. Apologies if I've offended anyone or bored others. This is rather new to me and was simply concerned, didn't know where to start my research and looking for views or pointers.

Thank you for your patience, you've been great and supportive. Wish you guys a wonderful day
 
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Offline ogden

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Re: 5G will kill us all? Seriously??
« Reply #16 on: May 19, 2020, 08:28:20 pm »
What the hell do they think 60GHz photons are doing to the oxygen? Transmuting it?
FYI there are no photons in 60GHz EM transmissions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_spectrum
 

Offline jjoonathan

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Re: 5G will kill us all? Seriously??
« Reply #17 on: May 19, 2020, 08:56:42 pm »
Quote from: ogden
FYI there are no photons in 60GHz EM transmissions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_spectrum
Oh? You just linked to a page that not only discusses at length the reasoning and history behind why you're wrong, it even explicitly plugs relevant values into Planck-Einstein (E=hf) to calculate that a 30GHz photon has about 124 micro electron volts of energy and lists that in a table at the top!


Besides, we are talking about *these*. Look at this spectrum and tell me why this interaction isn't quantized:
 

Offline jjoonathan

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Re: 5G will kill us all? Seriously??
« Reply #18 on: May 19, 2020, 09:36:59 pm »
Sorry, that was needlessly harsh. I imagine you're thinking about the distinction between ionizing and non-ionizing radiation, and that's an important one. If a photon has ~electron-volts of energy (4000 times the energy of a 60GHz photon), it can bump electrons between orbitals and do chemistry. It's no mistake that our eyes are good at detecting photons of these energies / wavelengths, because our eyes work using chemistry.
 
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Offline jjoonathan

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Re: 5G will kill us all? Seriously??
« Reply #19 on: May 19, 2020, 09:46:45 pm »
Also, it leads into the funniest part of this all: the world around us is bathed in a high-intensity 1000 watt per m^2 flux of far-terahertz radiation that has proven beyond a doubt its high chemical activity and ability to cause cancer! People intentionally expose themselves to it with the goal of making their skin a slightly darker shade of beige. Remember your sunscreen, folks.

I bet we could come up with a pretty gnarly description of the visible light emitted by phone screens, too. Just think: it penetrates your skull and focuses onto the surface of your nervous system where it does chemistry to alter your thoughts using patterns under government control. Oh, the humanity  :scared:
« Last Edit: May 19, 2020, 09:49:49 pm by jjoonathan »
 
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Offline ogden

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Re: 5G will kill us all? Seriously??
« Reply #20 on: May 19, 2020, 09:56:33 pm »
Sorry, that was needlessly harsh.
Yes, thank you for pointing out. My statement was wrong indeed.

Quote
If a photon has ~electron-volts of energy (4000 times the energy of a 60GHz photon), it can bump electrons between orbitals and do chemistry.
Exactly. What's the point of talking about 5G /60GHz "photons" if they have much less energy compared to IR radiation coming out of your own body!
 

Offline jjoonathan

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Re: 5G will kill us all? Seriously??
« Reply #21 on: May 19, 2020, 10:43:23 pm »
Quote
What's the point of talking about 5G /60GHz "photons" if they have much less energy compared to IR radiation coming out of your own body!

They still interact with matter in a way that we can precisely describe and which leads to those distinctive spiky spectra (the spectrum I posted earlier was CO). The spectra themselves are useful for identifying chemicals, both on Earth and in space, and they serve as evidence that quantum mechanics is a correct description of how atoms and molecules behave.

That's important because classical physics from Newton and Maxwell doesn't predict atoms or molecules. They have nothing to say about chemistry, and by extension biology, life, and most of the "stuff" around us. They're incomplete. If you were to "turn off" quantum physics for a moment and run the universe just using Newton's laws and Maxwell's equations, all of the air, water, people, etc around you would dissolve into a swirling toilet bowl of particles. Quantum mechanics describes why particles snap together to form atoms, why atoms snap together to form molecules, and (to a lesser extent) why molecules stick together to form all of the wonderful solids, liquids, and gasses around us. Quantum mechanics is the physics of chemistry. It's important for us to know how it works, and since the simplest theory we have that matches our observations is certifiably nuts we need to confirm it somehow.

Atomic and molecular gasses are simple enough to describe using quantum mechanics yet macroscopic enough to experimentally probe. Their distinctive spiky spectra cannot be explained by Newton's laws or Maxwell's equations, but they can be computed using quantum mechanics. Quantum mechanics not only predicts the correct frequencies and amplitudes for the spikes, it assigns a physical interpretation to each spike (e.g. the molecule absorbs a photon and begins to spin one quanta faster around its major axis), and the physical interpretation has second-order effects that can also be observed.

Lots of non-trivial correct predictions make the "quantized particles interacting under the laws of quantum mechanics" story compelling, while lots of trivial, incorrect predictions make the "Newton and Maxwell are enough to describe the universe" story not compelling. Obviously one should use the simplest theory suited for any given purpose, but Maxwell's equations aren't suited for a first-principles description of the interaction between 60GHz radiation and oxygen molecules. We need to use quantum mechanics for that purpose, and with quantum mechanics comes a description of EM radiation not as a continuum but as a collection of photons.

Fields make a comeback if you dig one level deeper down the rabbit hole, but we don't need to do that in order to describe the interaction between molecular oxygen and 60GHz radiation. Quantum mechanics is good enough for that.
 

Offline Miti

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Re: 5G will kill us all? Seriously??
« Reply #22 on: May 20, 2020, 01:07:43 am »
Also, it leads into the funniest part of this all: the world around us is bathed in a high-intensity 1000 watt per m^2 flux of far-terahertz radiation that has proven beyond a doubt its high chemical activity and ability to cause cancer! People intentionally expose themselves to it with the goal of making their skin a slightly darker shade of beige. Remember your sunscreen, folks.

You mean this sunscreen https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/banana-baby-boat-sunscreen-1.4136851 ? Pick your cancer...
I agree that 5G danger may be BS but more and more serious scientists link cancers and other modern diseases to vitamin D deficiency.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2020, 02:36:36 am by Miti »
That big spark at power up was by design!
 

Offline profdc9

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Re: 5G will kill us all? Seriously??
« Reply #23 on: May 20, 2020, 03:03:33 am »
What do microwaves do to you?

Source: I am an electrical engineer that has worked with in both laser spectroscopy and microwave radar.

They can heat you.  There are several mechanisms for this.  The main mechanism is ohmic losses, where free carriers are vibrated at the same frequency as the incoming radiation and due to interactions with the carrier's environment, give up its motion as heat. 

In some cases, there can be resonances, especially in the gas phase.  These are rotational resonances.  For a rigid rotor with a moment of interia I, the energy levels are given by E=J(J+1) hbar^2 / 2I, where J is the total angular momentum quantum number.  Because of decoherence, this ends up as heat as well.  This is probably not an important mechanism in liquid and solid media like the human body, but there are absorption bands in the microwave region in the atmosphere for water vapor, for example.

One thing you can get are dimensional resonances.  That is, the shape of a particular structure might be resonant at a particular frequency and enhance the absorption.  Veritasium made a cool video about this I recommend:



At any rate, the dielectric constant of human tissue is quite high, on the order of 20-80 depending on the tissue type, and also very lossy, so the wavelength is much smaller in human tissue so that dimensional effects can potentially become important even for structures much smaller than the free space wavelength.

The power used in modern handsets is on the order of 10 to 300 mW, that is 10 to 24 dBm.  This is a very small amount of power.  Now it is true that with a short wavelength more of this will be absorbed near the surface.  For example, the military has constructed a 94 GHz microwave area denial system that is intended to disperse crowds by heating skin.  You can definitely feel this.  It is unlikely that even if a handset was placed next to you and transmitting at 300 mW you would be able to tell.  Since it takes 4.2 J to raise 1 g of water by 1 C, 300 mW would raise 1 g of water by 0.07 C/sec.  A person weights a lot more than a gram, and heat conduction and convection would probably prevent any significant heat build up anyways.

Now if you had really strong fields, like those in a microwave oven, you can get dielectric breakdown.  You can get effects like ionic and avalanche conduction in plasmas.  For example, placing a candle in a microwave oven:



But the fields radiated by handsets are nowhere near the field strength needed to do this.  But it's cool to watch in the microwave.

Real Engineering did a great video about 5G as well recently:



I don't think I will convince anyone using facts and stuff, but you gotta try.
 

Online TheUnnamedNewbie

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Re: 5G will kill us all? Seriously??
« Reply #24 on: May 20, 2020, 09:08:37 am »
Regardless of how stupid it may seem to us, it is important that we avoid mocking/laughing at conspiracy theorists and people who are genuinly scared.
Nobody wakes up in the morning and goes "I'm gonna start throwing out my sanity and believe conspiracies instead today!".

Yes, many of these people might suffer from what we like to colloquially call 'Dunning-Kruger'. It sucks, and it can be frustrating to deal with. But if we start mocking them, you will only push them further away from the truth and create a larger divide. Patience and tolerance is the only way I think we can help these people come to understand the errors in their reasoning. If you mock someone who is scared, even if their rational self agrees with the reasoning, they are unlikely to trust/believe you. And why would they, you were just an asshole to them.

Elitism/mocking of people by those with deep understanding and education is in part what enables this kind of thing in the first place.
The best part about magic is when it stops being magic and becomes science instead

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