CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters

[bd139]

If it's like the UK one, a one eyed monkey could pass it.

[joeqsmith]

Afraid you can't pass the test to get an actual license?

A friend of mine and I spent some time reading the question pool for the extra class.  There is no way I would pass that test without memorizing a bunch of useless information.   

If Father Guido Sarducci decides to offer a license, I may take him up on it.

[joeqsmith]

If it's like the UK one, a one eyed monkey could pass it.

You're a ham, what exactly do you do?  I heard that as the hobby moved away from a technical role, much of the focus is on running contests.  Who can blab with the most people in the shortest time?   Like when I am stuck in a room with my wife and her friends??      There's very little wasted time. They will overlap so there's seldom a pause.  Then they ask why I don't join.    Rather it's "You're being quiet"     My guess is they could dominate in such a contest...

[bd139]

If it's like the UK one, a one eyed monkey could pass it.

You're a ham, what exactly do you do?  I heard that as the hobby moved away from a technical role, much of the focus is on running contests.  Who can blab with the most people in the shortest time?   Like when I am stuck in a room with my wife and her friends??      There's very little wasted time. They will overlap so there's seldom a pause.  Then they ask why I don't join.    Rather it's "You're being quiet"     My guess is they could dominate in such a contest...

I think you got it wrong there. It's still super technical and not at all sociable. Instead of having to understand radio principles and building your own gear, it's all about working out how to resolve windows audio and USB driver issues so you can get WSJT-X talking to your IC7300 so you can sit behind a keyboard at home and entirely miss the point of the mode and blast FT8 out at 100W without talking to anyone at all! Contests are all older hams I think, mostly Italians blasting from their home country, running enough power to get S9+50 on a hip implant in the UK.

As for the female of the species, as a parent of three girls, I can say that they can hold three separate conversations at the same time on a very narrow bandwidth with permanent overlap. Perhaps they are using a form of FT8

[joeqsmith]

I think you got it wrong there. It's still super technical and not at all sociable. Instead of having to understand radio principles and building your own gear, it's all about working out how to resolve windows audio and USB driver issues so you can get WSJT-X talking to your IC7300 so you can sit behind a keyboard at home and entirely miss the point of the mode and blast FT8 out at 100W without talking to anyone at all! Contests are all older hams I think, mostly Italians blasting from their home country, running enough power to get S9+50 on a hip implant in the UK.

As for the female of the species, as a parent of three girls, I can say that they can hold three separate conversations at the same time on a very narrow bandwidth with permanent overlap. Perhaps they are using a form of FT8

Best post of this thread!   Appreciate the insight.   

Tried to doing a search and it does appear that it's not just about Bird meters.   The following article starts out about "makers"and the history of amateur radio.   Then they change to what they believe the hobby is about today.   
 
https://owenduffy.net/blog/?p=122

But as information and communications technologies advanced at an explosive rate through the 1980s, ham radio shifted focus from ‘home brewed’ equipment to commercial off the shelf equipment designed specifically for the ham market. In this era, newer digital techniques were being applied to generation of oscillator signals within otherwise fairly traditional receivers, transmitters, and transceivers, and equipment was evolving to fully solid state at the low to medium power level. Some might say that hams were seduced by advanced technology of off the shelf equipment, buying it and to a large extent foregoing knowledge of how it worked. Instead of being interested in how it worked, hams tended to concentrate on operating the radio. Certainly many hams would not entertain the thought of modifying the radio, it may void warranty. The transceiver was now an ‘appliance’ which was used to make on-air contact with other hams and the content of on-air discussions changed away from the technical tests and discussions.

A sizeable proportion of the ham population had evolved into principally operators, and since their interest in the technology was diminishing and had little to share in conversation with remaining technically interested hams, they focused on contests and awards. Contests and awards had their origins in recognising the skills of hams, but the contests and awards were dominated by those recognising operating skills and to some extent collecting, collecting contacts to different places, mostly distant places. A lot of contest or awards activity can be seen as like train spotting in many ways.

Contests grew and evolved, they became more frequent but specialised contests grew, and contacts transformed from a minimal duration traditional contact to mass production like contacts where in pursuit of the contest goal, the contacts did not even observe the regulatory requirements for identification of the stations. Overall, the ham community through its associations and societies rewarded this type of activity and grew the contest regime. Contesters grew to think of contests as the true ham radio activity and that it had priority over other ad-hoc contacts, that it deserved priority access to the bands and that a contest dispensed with the regulations on interference avoidance, all in the pursuit of an award.

[bd139]

I think that actually nails it pretty well. The final nail in the coffin is FT8 I suppose which allows contacts to be made incredibly rapidly with the worst kit you can throw together and it still works. From a communications and technology perspective it's pretty cool but it misses that undefinable quality of something that feels like it's worth doing. There was some dude running an FT8 station while he was at work from a python script which suggests how much skill there is involved. I would hire that guy because he's the right kind of lazy for my line of work.

To be 100% frank and honest, without the facetious side of things, I was probably the maker / ham intersection. I did rather did enjoy operating CW only. There was something nice about being able to throw a few components together and chuck a few watts up some wire in the garden and make a contact with someone. It felt like you were wobbling fundamental bits of the universe around rather than buying a golf club just to show people.

But being honest the main excuse was so I could piss around with a larger variety of test gear. But not any of that Bird stuff 

[joeqsmith]

Spent some time today looking at detector ICs on Digi-key.  Not something I have ever had a use for.   Some of them have some really nice features.   

I was reading some of the Watt/SWR meter reviews on the link Xrunner provided.   I like that MJF 891.  Comments like "Not as accurate as the Bird, but close." with nothing to back them up leads me to believe that again, the Bird is the gold standard.  Sure the product did not read the same as their gold standard.  Of course the gold standard is the final word.   

https://www.eham.net/reviews/view-product?id=11017

Like the large cross needle movement and bigger case.  Used prices are a bit high to scrap one.    Maybe something like this:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/334356777418?hash=item4dd93789ca:g:NvkAAOSwP0NiJ4VZ

Maybe I could salvage the keypad.   Plenty of room to work with and lots of holes... 

[xrunner]

I've noticed these little boards on Ebay -

eBay auction: #402653782431

They have an AD 8310

https://www.analog.com/en/products/ad8310.html#product-overview

which accepts a range of -77dBm to +18 dBm (95 dB). It outputs a voltage as the power changes. You could write up a little microcontroller program to read the output, do some conversion, and use a small display. Wouldn't be too awful hard. Heck I might play with that idea this summer. Looks like they are all in China though. Be interesting to see what it would do as far as accuracy.

 

[joeqsmith]

See, you're starting to think about a Watt meter contest....    

I've made some couplers before.  I think if the power were limited and the upper/lower frequency were constrained to the 160-10 Meter bands, it wouldn't be too bad to come up with something.    Of course, the CB guys think 50kW is limited power.       If we stayed with CW and a simple diode detector...... no too boring..

My first VSWR meter was home made.  Wish I still had it as the construction was very impressive. 

[CaptDon]

As idiotic and weird as AudioPhools are, it would be interesting if Bird made an audio wattmeter and if the Audiophools though elevating the meter on little wooden blocks made it more accurate or maybe the color of the paint would make the meter more accurate to 'the sound stage' making the 'red' meters the actual 'gold' standard, or putting the meter in line with the speakers 'Awoke a new transparency' never before heard even with amplifiers costing tens of thousands of dollars? Audiophools will buy or believe anything if the price is 100X the actual quality!!!

[joeqsmith]

I believe that the key to making the old analog Bird meter highly accurate is to mount the slugs in wood.   Once you see the labor involved, you will understand why I charge $10,000.00 USD each.  Anything else, it's just a Bird...

https://www.dhtrob.com/projecten/elna1.php

[TheSteve]

See, now I had to dig it out of the archives. There are more slugs in some other box.

[xrunner]

I believe that the key to making the old analog Bird meter highly accurate is to mount the slugs in wood ...

Ah yes but what kind of wood? That is the importent part. 

Amazon has the AD8310 boards in stock (they seem to have anything and everything these days). I added one to my cart so will get it along with my next order. I'll put it on the bench and give it a good checkout. Proceed from there.

If it works I can measure higher power levels with the right attenuator in front. Are attenuators bad or do the CBer's frown on them when measuring power?

(No, attenuators are not "bad" neither are they "good". They are components. If used improperly, then they would be bad. If used properly then they are good. They are simply components to be used as needed just like any other component in a design.)

[TheSteve]

If I want to measure an amplifier I also have this:

[xrunner]

Oh yea, now that's my kind of Bird! 

[TheSteve]

I'd rather use this unless I'm measuring over 120 watts or want to see VSWR.

[joeqsmith]

Very nice home lab.   Puts mine to shame.   

[vk6zgo]

I saw videos where they are modifying these old meters to add peak detection.  Battery powered, op-amp.  What these remotes sites are that people keep talking about.   They must have simple modulation, able to break into the transmission line (shutting down the station), no need for precision or accuracy.   Anytime I see them, they are on a desk with three or more attached in series with them.   

Back when I used to frequent "remote sites", Birds were often left in line in the various Comms sites, (which weren't a big part of my concern for that period) as part of the installation.
Such devices were very much rarer in TV installations, where it was more common to rely on the power meters on the Tx.
Birds were good for a "quick check" by the "first in " maintenance people, who were supposed to be "jacks of all trades".

Techs called out to a proper fault, or on annual or so, "spec checks" would commonly use more sophisticated devices, probably lugging
a Spectrum Analyser along, with perhaps a HP power meter, or, as we did, a HP410C, Model 1I036A AC Probe,  a  Model 1I042A Probe "T" Connector, & a known accurate test load.

The advantage of the 410C setup for TV checks was that the "peak & hold" detector in the probe had a time constant quite a bit longer than a TV line interval, so the displayed reading was to a very close approximation, the peak voltage at sync tips.

The "spec" was for the Sound carrier to be 10 dB lower in amplitude than the Vision carrier,  "sync tip power".

Take the readings  with just Vision Carrier, note it down, then just Sound Carrier, note it down, calculate (HP10C calculator), & there you were!

Yes, we could have used the Spec An, & did so for "quick checks", but the 410C method  was simple, repeatable, & had good accuracy.

Of course, that was in the days when Engineering companies were run by Engineers, not "Pencil Necked Beancounters", so your 410C had an up to date calibration!

[vk6zgo]

I believe that the key to making the old analog Bird meter highly accurate is to mount the slugs in wood.   Once you see the labor involved, you will understand why I charge $10,000.00 USD each.  Anything else, it's just a Bird...

https://www.dhtrob.com/projecten/elna1.php

I have seen a device for holding unused Bird slugs, which was made out of wood, covered with green felt.
The idea was to stop idiots dropping them!

[vk6zgo]

Do you get more smoke at the antenna if you measure it three times? Or are they taking an average to remove measurement uncertainty? 

It appears that, when CBers have one of their "shootouts", they don't poke the output of the "multi-pill" amplifier into any sort of power meter, they just use a Field Strength Meter situated some distance away!

I am always surprised by the following of AM CB in the USA---in Oz, it was regarded as the "beginner's mode", with most CBers drooling to buy SSB rigs.
The Tiny "rump" of HF CB in this country mainly seem to use CH35 LSB.

SSB doesn't quite lend itself to "shootouts" like AM!

[vk6zgo]

I put together more pricing options such as used Bird vs used Coaxial Dynamics and hp. Problem was I couldn't locate any used 2 - 30 MHz, 100W Bird elements. They are all either being hoarded, or the extra ones have been burned to a crisp by mis-use.

There is another option, which takes into account market realities during the years when most of the secondhand ones were made.

2-30MHz 100W was never their target market, so they were never available in the quantities that higher power & higher frequency units were.
Hams were too poor to buy them, the Military & Industry weren't but, again, few wanted HF 100W slugs.
Low & high Band VHF 100W slugs would be more common.

[CJay]

I believe that the key to making the old analog Bird meter highly accurate is to mount the slugs in wood.   Once you see the labor involved, you will understand why I charge $10,000.00 USD each.  Anything else, it's just a Bird...

https://www.dhtrob.com/projecten/elna1.php

If you use teak then you'll find it opens up the dynamic range of the power reading to give a wider signalscape but you do need the oxygen free crystalline structure coax to have been tempered in liquid nitrogen for at least 24 hours and then brought back to operating temperature over 48 hours before being burned in using an RF signal from an HP M9484C modulated at the frequencies of interest to get the best experience

[xrunner]

Here's the two meters I've mentioned before - hp 437B & 436A (I also have a second 437B). Both models have internal 0.00 dBm (1 mW) references and these references have been checked with multiple instruments and found to be accurate. The internal power reference design seems to be a rock-solid one, as all three are 30 year old designs.

As I mentioned before, if you want a 1 mW power reference just buy a used 437B or 436A and you can use the internal reference even if you don't have the power sensor. On top is a 100W 40 dB attenuator (DC to 3 GHz), so I can measure transmitters up to 100W (+50 dBm). The hp power sensors have a max +20 dBm power input, so anything larger has to be attenuated. 100 W = +50 dBm +50 - 40 = +10 dBm well inside the range of the sensor.

I don't see any need for hams or CBers to keep expensive meters like Bird 43s in-line all the time to monitor output power even if they say you can, unless you just like the bling factor. Why risk damaging expensive instruments more than you have to (think lightning strikes)? Once the transmitter is calibrated it's sorta supposed to stay that way anyway ... 

All you really need is a simple SWR/PWR meter to see if any strange changes occur over time. If there are odd changes in output power/SWR large enough for you to see on an inexpensive in-line meter, just investigate your antenna or coax connections. 95% of the time it isn't a problem with the transceiver. If the output power goes to zero or nearly so, then you will know what to do in that case.

[joeqsmith]

Do you get more smoke at the antenna if you measure it three times? Or are they taking an average to remove measurement uncertainty? 

It appears that, when CBers have one of their "shootouts", they don't poke the output of the "multi-pill" amplifier into any sort of power meter, they just use a Field Strength Meter situated some distance away!

I am always surprised by the following of AM CB in the USA---in Oz, it was regarded as the "beginner's mode", with most CBers drooling to buy SSB rigs.
The Tiny "rump" of HF CB in this country mainly seem to use CH35 LSB.

SSB doesn't quite lend itself to "shootouts" like AM!

Makes sense. Do they use some common antenna or pull up with their vehicle?  If a non-standard setup,  do they use a quad copter to map the radiation pattern and pick the peak?   

Picture showing the backside radiation pattern off my two bean can waveguide at 2.52GHz measured with the LiteVNA.   Maybe difficult to rotate a semi in a sphere but a quad with GPS could certainly make a basic sweep of it. 

[xrunner]

Picture showing the backside radiation pattern off my two bean can waveguide at 2.52GHz measured with the LiteVNA.   Maybe difficult to rotate a semi in a sphere but a quad with GPS could certainly make a basic sweep of it.

That pic looks like something from the Non linear plasma reactor debacle -

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/the-non-linear-plasma-reactor/