Author Topic: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters  (Read 183455 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online joeqsmithTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 11736
  • Country: us
Re: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters
« Reply #1500 on: November 27, 2023, 03:07:47 am »
Probing from the copper side to the adhesive, if I touch off on the glue it is not conductive.  The black material is suspended in the adhesive.  If you move the glue around, the black material moves with it.  Maybe just a sprinkle of course carbon mixed in.  Can't add too much or the adhesive won't have enough surface area to stick. 

Quote
No really I don't make mistakes any more.
The only people I know who don't make mistakes don't do anything.  If you're not making mistakes, you're not learning. 

Online xrunner

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7516
  • Country: us
  • hp>Agilent>Keysight>???
Re: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters
« Reply #1501 on: November 28, 2023, 01:36:29 am »
The only people I know who don't make mistakes don't do anything.  If you're not making mistakes, you're not learning.

Does that apply to brain surgeons and airline pilots?  :-DD
I told my friends I could teach them to be funny, but they all just laughed at me.
 

Offline metrologist

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2199
  • Country: 00
Re: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters
« Reply #1502 on: November 28, 2023, 03:28:30 am »
The only people I know who don't make mistakes don't do anything.  If you're not making mistakes, you're not learning.

Does that apply to brain surgeons and airline pilots?  :-DD

Did it apply to the Bud Light marketing person?  :-DD
 

Online joeqsmithTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 11736
  • Country: us
Re: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters
« Reply #1503 on: November 28, 2023, 04:22:55 am »
When I think of brain surgeons, I would normally think of Rose Kennedy.   Now that I am older, I have a few friend's doctors I also think of.

First hit from Google:  Oops, we worked on the wrong side... 
https://pa4law.com/neurosurgery-malpractice-when-surgeons-operate-on-the-wrong-area-of-the-brain/

Quote
There are different reasons why wrong-side craniotomies are performed. Reversed X-rays, procedural errors, and a surgeon failing to review a patient’s medical records are just a few factors that can come into play. Wrong-site surgeries are considered sentinel events, which are the worst kinds of medical errors. It’s hard to believe, but a  2007 study found that one out of four neurosurgeons has performed wrong-site surgeries.

Online joeqsmithTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 11736
  • Country: us
Re: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters
« Reply #1504 on: November 28, 2023, 12:30:26 pm »
If you had flipped the lower components so the coupler was towards the front and detectors toward the rear, rather than the loops you could have used 90ish degree bends. 

Online xrunner

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7516
  • Country: us
  • hp>Agilent>Keysight>???
Re: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters
« Reply #1505 on: November 28, 2023, 12:43:23 pm »
If you had flipped the lower components so the coupler was towards the front and detectors toward the rear, rather than the loops you could have used 90ish degree bends.

Yep several things could be improved. I will post pics of the finished input / output cable installation later. It ended up being tighter than I wanted but it will suffice for now. I may end up putting it in a larger metal case. I want to finish it as it stands and perhaps make an enclosure improvement as another step. Call this one an initial prototype. What else do I have to do?

 :-DD
« Last Edit: November 28, 2023, 01:12:54 pm by xrunner »
I told my friends I could teach them to be funny, but they all just laughed at me.
 

Offline A.Z.

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 881
  • Country: it
Re: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters
« Reply #1506 on: November 28, 2023, 05:01:45 pm »
Probing from the copper side to the adhesive, if I touch off on the glue it is not conductive.  The black material is suspended in the adhesive.  If you move the glue around, the black material moves with it.  Maybe just a sprinkle of course carbon mixed in.  Can't add too much or the adhesive won't have enough surface area to stick. 

I wonder if the "copper tape" presents some capacitance at RF due to the adhesive layer, I mean if one sticks some "tape" over another layer ...


« Last Edit: November 28, 2023, 06:45:25 pm by A.Z. »
 

Online xrunner

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7516
  • Country: us
  • hp>Agilent>Keysight>???
Re: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters
« Reply #1507 on: November 29, 2023, 12:46:38 pm »
Probing from the copper side to the adhesive, if I touch off on the glue it is not conductive.  The black material is suspended in the adhesive.  If you move the glue around, the black material moves with it.  Maybe just a sprinkle of course carbon mixed in.  Can't add too much or the adhesive won't have enough surface area to stick. 

My image is attached. It also shows black specks of an unknown substance on the sticky side. The pic shows the adhesive side on the left and the uncoated side of the tape on the right.

I wonder if the "copper tape" presents some capacitance at RF due to the adhesive layer, I mean if one sticks some "tape" over another layer ...

Well you know how it goes. Most electronic components have properties of other types of components. Resistors have some inductance and capacitance, capacitors have some resistance and inductance ... and so on. So of course it will exhibit some capacitance.

But I don't understand what you want to do. Do you mean stick the adhesive side of one piece of tape to the copper side of another? Or do you mean stick two pieces of tape together adhesive to adhesive? But the adhesive is conductive. The dielectric material in a capacitor is not. It will mainly create a resistor with probably between 0 and 1 ohms.

Remember you guys are way smarter than me so please take that into account.  :-\

I told my friends I could teach them to be funny, but they all just laughed at me.
 

Offline kj7e

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 911
  • Country: us
  • Damon Stewart
Re: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters
« Reply #1508 on: November 29, 2023, 02:20:50 pm »
Not sure how I ever missed this thread.  The Bird 43 is good for a second opinion, IMO.  I much prefer my LP-100 for accuracy and LP-500 station monitor for everything else.  That said, I did a few videos for the fun of it over the years.  LP-500 vs Bird 43.

https://youtu.be/3FhwtYpVrqQ?si=kGshY90QjBBg5d16


Of course, what would this be without modifications.  Here I added a custom modification to prevent exceeding the FCC power limit;

https://youtu.be/FYLvDVBtUi0?si=MpU6AskIPWmjiV5k
« Last Edit: November 29, 2023, 02:27:56 pm by kj7e »
 

Online joeqsmithTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 11736
  • Country: us
Re: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters
« Reply #1509 on: November 29, 2023, 02:37:29 pm »
Thanks for checking your tape.  At least we know that they use basically the same technique.   

Probing from the copper side to the adhesive, if I touch off on the glue it is not conductive.  The black material is suspended in the adhesive.  If you move the glue around, the black material moves with it.  Maybe just a sprinkle of course carbon mixed in.  Can't add too much or the adhesive won't have enough surface area to stick. 

I wonder if the "copper tape" presents some capacitance at RF due to the adhesive layer, I mean if one sticks some "tape" over another layer ...

The tape I normally use from 3M which does not use the conductive filler certainly would act like a capacitor.   

Well you know how it goes. Most electronic components have properties of other types of components. Resistors have some inductance and capacitance, capacitors have some resistance and inductance ... and so on. So of course it will exhibit some capacitance.

True.  A few years back we had a little contest where the goal was to construct an oscillator using a breadboard.  Highest frequency wins.  The whole point I tried to make with that little experiment was to show everything has parasitics and how to take advantage of them.  In the end I was using a bit of wire attached to some plastic with a mechanical stage to adjust the capacitance.   

Reading that thread, you had the typical hams who wanted to be spoon fed.  My troll returned for some added drama.  Ignoring that, you like playing with RF.  You should revive that thread and topple my last attempt.  Guessing there are parts available today that would easily do the job.  Even back then, I had some others in my hip pocket in case someone stepped up.  I would have needed some better test equipment.   I did write Signal Hound to see if they had any interest in a little promotion but they didn't want to play, or at least, never responded. 

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/challenge-thread-the-fastest-breadboard-oscillator-on-the-mudball/

Online joeqsmithTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 11736
  • Country: us
Re: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters
« Reply #1510 on: November 29, 2023, 02:44:43 pm »
Not sure how I ever missed this thread.

Welcome aboard.  I like your calibrated paper approach to measuring power.  Looks like you play with some RC planes and bicycles as well.  I'll check out your channel. 

Online xrunner

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7516
  • Country: us
  • hp>Agilent>Keysight>???
Re: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters
« Reply #1511 on: November 29, 2023, 03:07:48 pm »
Not sure how I ever missed this thread.

It was pretty active at the start what with the Bird defenders and antagonists going toe-to-toe. Mostly calmed down now but since "Bird" was mentioned again it might get hot.  :-DD
I told my friends I could teach them to be funny, but they all just laughed at me.
 

Online xrunner

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7516
  • Country: us
  • hp>Agilent>Keysight>???
Re: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters
« Reply #1512 on: December 01, 2023, 01:32:59 am »
Gathering parts for wiring & final assembly.
I told my friends I could teach them to be funny, but they all just laughed at me.
 

Online joeqsmithTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 11736
  • Country: us
Re: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters
« Reply #1513 on: December 01, 2023, 08:07:30 pm »

Online xrunner

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7516
  • Country: us
  • hp>Agilent>Keysight>???
Re: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters
« Reply #1514 on: December 02, 2023, 12:40:55 pm »
The coax jumpers are tight and I will probably try another case later but for now it's "Full Speed Ahead!".  :-+
I told my friends I could teach them to be funny, but they all just laughed at me.
 

Online xrunner

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7516
  • Country: us
  • hp>Agilent>Keysight>???
Re: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters
« Reply #1515 on: December 04, 2023, 01:16:50 am »
Wiring progress for today. I made up female dupont connectors on the ends of some wiring so I will be able to unplug power to the log amps and also unplug the output voltage from either one of them, if needed for testing purposes.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2023, 01:56:20 am by xrunner »
I told my friends I could teach them to be funny, but they all just laughed at me.
 
The following users thanked this post: joeqsmith

Online joeqsmithTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 11736
  • Country: us
Re: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters
« Reply #1516 on: December 04, 2023, 01:54:01 am »
Bends don't look near as bad in this photo.   

Online xrunner

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7516
  • Country: us
  • hp>Agilent>Keysight>???
Re: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters
« Reply #1517 on: December 04, 2023, 02:08:13 am »
Yea I got them to sit a bit better. The bends coming off the coupler are about as tight as I'm comfortable with but I think it's OK.

I think I found the couplers on Ebay in June and started it all from that point, so if I can get this project finished by Dec 31 it'll be seven months.  :phew:
I told my friends I could teach them to be funny, but they all just laughed at me.
 

Online xrunner

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7516
  • Country: us
  • hp>Agilent>Keysight>???
Re: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters
« Reply #1518 on: December 08, 2023, 01:32:11 am »
Breadboard eliminated, just a few more components and wires to connect.
I told my friends I could teach them to be funny, but they all just laughed at me.
 

Online xrunner

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7516
  • Country: us
  • hp>Agilent>Keysight>???
Re: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters
« Reply #1519 on: December 11, 2023, 12:27:38 am »
I finished the wiring and decided to have headers for all the inputs and outputs so they are removable. However, this decision to use headers made my case now not have enough inside height so I'll have to go back and re-do some 3D printed case parts. Not a large deal but that's how things roll.

The meter seemed to work at first glance. However, upon testing with an rf input of several watts it was obvious that there was a problem with the indicated rf power. I didn't find anything wrong with the wiring I did on the Due proto board. I was certain I didn't muck up the program testing things last time I ran it, but I checked and downloaded the software again to be sure. I proceeded to move down to the log amps because I didn't see any Vout from either one at the A0 or A1 inputs. In fact, the voltage input to analog channel A0 and A1 seemed to be floating though I wasn't sure how that issue could have arisen. Oh no please don't tell me ... no it can't be they're zapped?  :palm:

I opened up the case on the channel one log amp and observed that the center conductor of the Vout cable had pulled away from the solder pad. I then opened up the other log amp and saw that the same thing had happened. Obviously there was a lot more twisting force on the cable than I had anticipated.

I shorted the center conductor to the Vout pad on the log amp with a pin and re-transmitted my test signal. At 146 MHz, the FWD power registered a decent reading, off a bit due to changes needed in all the cal factors, so I'm confident the project will be good to go after I repair the current problem.

What I think I'll do is split the shield into a left and right conductor, and that will anchor it better. It won't be tugged on anymore.

But the bright side is that it appears to be a functional meter from what few tests I've done.
I told my friends I could teach them to be funny, but they all just laughed at me.
 

Online joeqsmithTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 11736
  • Country: us
Re: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters
« Reply #1520 on: December 11, 2023, 01:10:59 am »
I made an attempt to add the ground strap to the coax to the Nissei RS-70. 


Online xrunner

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7516
  • Country: us
  • hp>Agilent>Keysight>???
Re: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters
« Reply #1521 on: December 12, 2023, 01:55:06 am »
Good work on the meter, might help somebody out there.

I reworked the Vout cables and now the center conductor should be held tight. I changed the cal factor for the 2 meter band a few times to get it closer.  I didn't spend a whole lot of time on it yet because the case isn't completely closed. I have to work on the new case parts now.

But the power is reading pretty close to what I last measured the output of the Baofeng to be in the 2 meter ham band. On high it was 4.6 W (depending on the charge of the battery) as measured with my hp 437B power meter. The project meter indicates 4.8 W. On low power the project meter also measures about 1.8 W which is only a few tenths of a watt from what it should be. So for now I'm happy with that.

Now to work on re-dimensioning the front, back, and side risers. There also won't be so many vent slots on the back panel because it's too much trouble to get them cut out after applying copper tape.  :scared:
I told my friends I could teach them to be funny, but they all just laughed at me.
 
The following users thanked this post: joeqsmith

Online joeqsmithTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 11736
  • Country: us
Re: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters
« Reply #1522 on: December 12, 2023, 06:57:40 pm »
Video demonstrating using attenuators for a load.  Rather than a VNA, he uses a scope with TDR.  Warning,  I cringed a lot during the video.....


Offline vk6zgo

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7586
  • Country: au
Re: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters
« Reply #1523 on: December 12, 2023, 11:33:41 pm »
Video demonstrating using attenuators for a load.  Rather than a VNA, he uses a scope with TDR.  Warning,  I cringed a lot during the video.....



Yes, he does rather like screwing them on the wrong way---that's why I like "N" connectors---you have to be pretty brutal to hurt them.
The information is good, but he "waffles on a lot" to get it over.

In the field it is often necessary to present the test equipment or DUT with a reasonably correct load, so if someone forgot to return the load to the equipment box or "cooked" it, & you are several thousand km from home, it is nice to be able to get quite close to a calibration load accuracy with two 40dB pads in cascade.

Another scenario is if you are working at a company which is quite poor (or miserly) where you may not have a calibration load & need something to "Second think" the Bird test load specs.
 

Offline metrologist

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2199
  • Country: 00
Re: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters
« Reply #1524 on: December 15, 2023, 06:09:59 pm »
Yes, he does rather like screwing them on the wrong way---that's why I like "N" connectors---you have to be pretty brutal to hurt them.

You are not supposed to rotate the body, doing it that way wears out the center conductors, rotate the nut instead.
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf