Author Topic: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters  (Read 177490 times)

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Online xrunner

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Re: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters
« Reply #50 on: June 05, 2022, 08:59:11 pm »

23 minutes in, a dab of Loctite, proceeds to use a tea spoon of it....   :-DD

Oh dear ...  :palm:

In case any guests are reading and don't know, only the very tiny bit of loctite he got inside the threads between the screw and bolt away from the air will do any good. All that other mess is a waste, even if it covered the outside of the metal. It will do nothing while exposed to the air, it isn't like a "glue" in that respect.
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Offline bd139

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Re: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters
« Reply #51 on: June 05, 2022, 09:05:18 pm »

23 minutes in, a dab of Loctite, proceeds to use a tea spoon of it....   :-DD

Oh dear ...  :palm:

In case any guests are reading and don't know, only the very tiny bit of loctite he got inside the threads between the screw and bolt away from the air will do any good. All that other mess is a waste, even if it covered the outside of the metal. It will do nothing while exposed to the air, it isn't like a "glue" in that respect.

I disagree with this. It will be a short mystery for the archaeologists who discover it in 2000 years and conclude that “ah yes they had morons back then too”
 
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Offline joeqsmithTopic starter

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Re: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters
« Reply #52 on: June 05, 2022, 10:05:49 pm »
Nice that he uses RG316. 35kW... hmmmm. Does he show the service panel of his home?

I picked up a pristine Bird APM-16 watt meter for free recently. I've also got a Bird 200W 30 dB attenuator that I bought on eBay years ago when I started doing some HF work. I had no idea how big and heavy it was till it arrived. I guess I should unload these things while certain individuals realize how incredibly valuable they are.

Not that I have seen.  I thought in this video he talked about pulling 250A off the mains.   It appears most of the amplifiers he makes are for mobile use.   He appears to use a stack of batteries and super caps for some of his testing.   


Offline vk6zgo

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Re: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters
« Reply #53 on: June 06, 2022, 05:19:46 am »
buy a real rf power meter from HP / agilent.

When i was working in the fab we had a Bird meter and a huge dummy load to check the 13.56MHz RF amplifiers for the plasma etchers. there was procedure to align those , check that the automatic matching network was doing its thing. Those things cranked out 1500 to 2000 watts. The control voltage was 0 to 10 volts and you needed to do a gain setting so the etcher could commandeer the right power. it also had an on-board power meter so you had to align that as well.
We had issues getting the etchers aligned to each other. Throw out the Bird crap and get a real power meter. You can't read that analog meter properly. is it 1.5 ? 1.6 ? 1.55 ? with a digital power meter you know what you are looking at.

Are figures power, or VSWR?  if the former, they are all less than 0.5 dB different, if the latter, they represent 1.33% difference in reflected power, or 1.24 dB difference in Return loss.

Digital meters? Bird makes one, too, but it all depends on the resolution of the ADC.

A better solution would be a Spectrum analyser, & a cable probe.

Some Transmitters used in an ISM had a bunch of amplifiers all paralleled through combiners, with the resulting higher powered output in turn combined with another similar group of amplifiers.

The designers (in the PRC) had "scrimped" a bit on the "imbalance loads", which which would "cook up" if there was sufficient imbalance between the amps, this in turn, would increase the imbalance between the groups, probably cooking more loads, & often, the LDMOS devices.

The power output control would try to make for the drop in power, by increasing the drive to all of them, ultimately destroying  at least one LDMOS device.

Turns out, the "rent an EEs" in the dear old People's Republic had made no attempt to match the freq response ofthe individual amps, so it was left to us.
With a SA, a tracking generator, a directional coupler saved from landfill at my previous work, & a nice big test load, we got them tuned to within 0.5dB---no more blown up devices!
« Last Edit: June 07, 2022, 12:13:40 am by vk6zgo »
 

Offline A.Z.

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Re: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters
« Reply #54 on: June 06, 2022, 08:19:15 am »
Folks, I don't know what all this babbling about Bird meters is; as I see it, the Bird meter was designed to withstand some given specifications and to be rugged enough for field use, so it's a tool designed to do its job according to the given specs, then if one pretends that it's something else, well...
 

Offline joeqsmithTopic starter

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Re: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters
« Reply #55 on: June 06, 2022, 12:26:11 pm »
Quote
With a SA, a tracking generator, a directional coupler saved from landfill at my previous work, & a nice big test load, we got them tuned to within 0.5dB

Relative vs absolute.   If wanted to measure absolute power at home, I'm not sure what I would do.   None of my equipment is in cal and I don't have a Bird gold standard.   

I know we bitch about the CBers but the hams are just as bad.

The dude at the local club destroyed a nice Kenwood rig using Jesus’ soldering iron  :palm:

I attempted to solder some surface mount parts using a 100 YO blow torch.   

Online xrunner

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Re: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters
« Reply #56 on: June 06, 2022, 12:31:31 pm »
Folks, I don't know what all this babbling about Bird meters is; as I see it, the Bird meter was designed to withstand some given specifications and to be rugged enough for field use, so it's a tool designed to do its job according to the given specs, then if one pretends that it's something else, well...

Because people rave about it due to the name. Other than the famous name, there is nothing special about it. Nothing at all. It's Old School technology. In fact, there are other choices out there that are better if that's the technology you want.

Back in 2013 when I got back into ham radio I got a Coaxial Dynamics RF power meter instead of a Bird. It can use Coaxial Dynamics elements and can use Bird elements too. Has the same +/- 5% accuracy. Built just as rugged. But look at the meter. The meter is a lot bigger and easier to read than the Bird meter. Oh and by the way it costs less ...  ::)

So yea, the Bird meter does a job, but not any better than other offerings out there. Will the Bird fanboys buy a Coaxial Dynamics meter. No, because they are obsessed with a name.



Coaxial Dynamics, Coaxial Dynamics, Coaxial Dynamics, is the Word.

Hmm I guess it doesn't have the same ring in that song, but don't worry about it.  :-DD
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Offline vk6zgo

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Re: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters
« Reply #57 on: June 07, 2022, 01:17:46 am »
Quote
With a SA, a tracking generator, a directional coupler saved from landfill at my previous work, & a nice big test load, we got them tuned to within 0.5dB

Relative vs absolute.   If wanted to measure absolute power at home, I'm not sure what I would do.   None of my equipment is in cal and I don't have a Bird gold standard. 

Nor me!

I think repeatability is the dear old "Birdies" strength----it may be a "bit out" in absolute terms, but it will probably be "near as dammit" that same "bit out" in 20-30 years time!

Most of the RF power readings I have had occasion to do "for a quid", either used the Transmitter's inbuilt power meter  (the bloody thing cost around a million bucks, so they surely could spring for a decent power meter), a 410C with  a coaxial probe adaptor, a SA with an "RF sniff" of known attenuation, with an oil cooled load, with a power meter on it (NEC), or the mother of them all, a water cooled load.

These have thermometers at the water input & output, & a flow meter.
By setting the water flow to the  mark on the glass, then reading the temperatures to get the temp rise, you can calculate average power----good old 19th Century technology!
If you have pretty accurate AC measurement equipment, you can calibrate those things from the 50Hz Mains using a transformer with a switched, tapped secondary.
Quote

I know we bitch about the CBers but the hams are just as bad.

The dude at the local club destroyed a nice Kenwood rig using Jesus’ soldering iron  :palm:

I attempted to solder some surface mount parts using a 100 YO blow torch.   

I was going to make a comment along these lines,"I personally think that's what should happen to all of them!-----I would use an oxy cutting torch, instead!", but decided to watch the video.

You actually produced a viable iron ----with its "human intelligence" temperature control, several steps better than the horrible little "pretend irons" cheaply available using repurposed "lamp dimmers"----Bravo!
 

Offline joeqsmithTopic starter

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Re: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters
« Reply #58 on: June 07, 2022, 01:33:15 am »
80MHz QAM 16.   My spectrum analyzer shows -40.42dBm or 2.13mVrms.   My scope shows 2.18mVrms.   This is behind a 30dB attenuator.   My little class A power amplifier uses an MRF453 and we don't get much signal through at these frequencies.  It's more an active attenator with very poor specs.   :-DD

Setting my old RF generator to -20dBm (22.36mVrms) and no modulation.  Connecting it directly to the scope, it reads 21.8mV.   This is using the scope's internal 50ohm termination.  The spectrum analyzer reads -20.01dBm. 

I have checked my attenuators but again, all of my equipment is not in cal. 
 
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Offline joeqsmithTopic starter

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Re: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters
« Reply #59 on: June 07, 2022, 01:52:10 am »
I think repeatability is the dear old "Birdies" strength----it may be a "bit out" in absolute terms, but it will probably be "near as dammit" that same "bit out" in 20-30 years time!

...

You actually produced a viable iron ----with its "human intelligence" temperature control, several steps better than the horrible little "pretend irons" cheaply available using repurposed "lamp dimmers"----Bravo!

I would imagine with the analog meter, there's a bit of operator error involved.  Two people may not get the same exact value when the meter is at the same location.  I changed to using a DMM decades ago but there are people who still swear by them.   Same arguments, they do what they were designed to .....

So many things went wrong when making that video.  Camera setup, rain, missed a joint...  Then there was the lack of a microscope and not the best surface to be working on.   BD139's post of a ham mucking up the clubs radio when soldering puts things into perspective!  :-DD 
 
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Online xrunner

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Re: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters
« Reply #60 on: June 07, 2022, 01:55:12 am »
Where does one get an accurate power reference?

You can buy used hp 437B power meters for less than $50 without a power sensor. Well what good is that you might ask me? The internal 50 MHz 0.00 dBm reference works and it's 0.00 dBm +/- 0.7%. So this is a good power reference to have on hand if you need one.

Edited: I meant 0 dBm (1 mW)
« Last Edit: June 07, 2022, 02:08:26 am by xrunner »
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Offline joeqsmithTopic starter

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Re: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters
« Reply #61 on: June 07, 2022, 02:06:24 am »
Can the Bird read down to 1dBm?  Then how do you cal that 50kW CB radio slug?   :-DD

I think the calorimeter would be the ticket.  Looks like there's a complete 25kW Bird calorimeter on eBay.   

https://www.ebay.com/itm/325145090103?hash=item4bb4285837:g:ygMAAOSwyfNiTb00

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Re: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters
« Reply #62 on: June 07, 2022, 02:09:47 am »
Can the Bird read down to 1dBm?  Then how do you cal that 50kW CB radio slug?   :-DD

You don't. You are a True Believer in Bird!  :-DD
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Offline joeqsmithTopic starter

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Re: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters
« Reply #63 on: June 07, 2022, 10:57:43 am »
Where does one get an accurate power reference?

You can buy used hp 437B power meters for less than $50 without a power sensor. Well what good is that you might ask me? The internal 50 MHz 0.00 dBm reference works and it's 0.00 dBm +/- 0.7%. So this is a good power reference to have on hand if you need one.

Edited: I meant 0 dBm (1 mW)

You forgot to include the cost of having it calibrated, or do you just believe in VintageHP?   

Basically +/-0.03dBm.   Compare that with my vintage Marconi @ +/-0.8dBm.  My old HP3589A isn't much better.

Maybe add another metric to your study and send around a reference standard.   Oh wait, there are a few videos that give us some idea what will happen.   Here's a Bird along with several others.       


Online xrunner

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Re: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters
« Reply #64 on: June 07, 2022, 11:11:52 am »

You forgot to include the cost of having it calibrated, or do you just believe in VintageHP?   

Basically +/-0.03dBm.   Compare that with my vintage Marconi @ +/-0.8dBm.  My old HP3589A isn't much better.

Are those of yours calibrated? I have a calibrated hp 8481A sensor with the paperwork. I can compare other power readings from several instruments to that. Remember this is a hobby and I don't send everything to cal do you? No I don't think so.

You do the same thing I do I expect, which is compare instruments and tell if something is not measuring correctly. The average CBer or ham will not do that. The just accept what they see as accurate. Well perhaps if it puts out Zero power, Mmmm ... that might cause them some concern.  :-DD


Oh and for a reference frequency standard I have a GPSDO, and for general DMM measurement checks I have a DMM Check with paperwork.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2022, 11:39:27 am by xrunner »
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Offline joeqsmithTopic starter

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Re: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters
« Reply #65 on: June 07, 2022, 12:46:23 pm »
None of my home equipment is in cal.  The Marconi arrived dead and after repairs was calibrated.  No adjustments were made.  I have also sent out my HP DMMs and had reports for them.   That's been many years ago.   I have a very old DCV transfer standard but again, it isn't in cal.   Any equipment I have that supports GPS, uses it.   

I picked up an old VNA to replace my historical museum grade VNA.  The newer VNA required repairs.  I also upgraded to a solid state drive along with installing the latest firmware.  The new firmware has some features that requires a few files that do not exist.  There is a new alignment procedure that is done to create these files.   In simple terms, that system reads off.  I thought about having it cal'ed and would have shipped it in for service but the talking with the person doing that work at Keysight, they were retiring at that same time.   So I never sent it in and just live with that error.  I use home made cal standards with it, so really,  I'm not trying to fool myself.   :-DD     

If I start doing CB radio tune up videos, calibration paperwork is a must, even if it's out of date!   The key to this is make sure that you refer to the certs often and wave them in front of the camera from time to time.   :-DD
 
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Offline CJay

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Re: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters
« Reply #66 on: June 07, 2022, 05:13:10 pm »

If I start doing CB radio tune up videos, calibration paperwork is a must, even if it's out of date!   The key to this is make sure that you refer to the certs often and wave them in front of the camera from time to time.   :-DD
"If they don't have a calibration it don't mean shit"  :-DD
 

Offline joeqsmithTopic starter

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Re: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters
« Reply #67 on: June 07, 2022, 05:42:37 pm »
Then you have the outlier like Fine Tune CB.


Offline El Rubio

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Re: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters
« Reply #68 on: June 07, 2022, 05:48:25 pm »
I've no doubt that the Bird watt meters are calibrated at the plant, and when they are purchased new they are within +/- 5%. However, years after that purchase my question was how does the CB or Ham user know the readings are within spec? The answer I got was "It's a Bird ...".

The abuse that I've seen hams give equipment and the stories related to me would give me no confidence that any Bird meter I bought used with the slugs wasn't hit with too high power, lightening strikes, slamming and banging against hard objects, or any other abusive use you can possibly imagine. I don't care what name is on the thing, it's no match for the abuse some Hams can dole out (or CBers too). They can turn a Bird into a Turd in seconds. Even if you were the only owner and very careful with it, how do you know 8 years later if the readings are within spec?

So, I would first have to test the meter and each slug and compare it to a trusted power reading such as I could get from any one of three hp power meters I have (2 437Bs and a 436A), a Rigol DSA 815, or a Boonton 4220). All these are verified accurate against multiple power references.

Do I expect every ham or CBer to have these instruments (or know how to properly use them)? No, I certainly do not. Hence my question again: How do (most) of them know the readings are within the rated specification?

Answer: They don't.

I added "most" because I'm a ham and I can do these tests, and there are other hams that can. However most hams cannot.

"It's a Bird!" Bird, Bird, Bird is the word (there's that damn song again ...)

You do realize my reply “It’s a Bird” was facetious, right? Seriously though, you check your Bird meter just like you check all of the other gear you mentioned. If a CB tech doesn’t check or have his gear calibrated, it doesn’t matter what he is using. Most Bird slugs have a trimpot that can be tweaked. When calibrating, the lab will remove the cover on the slug, make any adjustments, then replace the cover.

When I used mine, it was mostly for checking reflected power quick and easily, and accurate enough to see if there is a problem. The youtube CB guys misuse a lot of gear, scopes, spec analyzers, multimeters., etc. it shouldn’t discount the usefulness of those tools in the right hands.

The biggest plus for a Bird 43 in my opinion is the durability. I’ve seen many of these take abuse that would absolutely obliterate most other comparable gear. There’s a reason I have one that is 30 years old and functionally as good as it ever was. Of all the test gear I own, it is the most physically overbuilt piece and the least likely to break if I drop it. What might happen to that Rigol if it fell from the tabletop to the floor? Sure, the Bird isn’t unbreakable, but it is almost certainly going to survive being dropped from a ladder or down a flight of stairs. I have always considered it a field tool and not necessarily a bench meter.
My point is that just because a few nitwits use the Bird 43 ( mostly improperly), doesn’t make the 43 less of an effective tool.

Some here are saying power measurement is not important because it will require a large increase to effect a noticeable change at the receive end. When you operate a licensed and regulated transmission, power measurement is very important , if you want to keep your license.
 

Offline bd139

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Re: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters
« Reply #69 on: June 07, 2022, 06:28:32 pm »
Got to say I don’t have a Rigol but I do have a habit of throwing my Siglent on the floor and my power meter. Usually happens when I am leaning on the feed line with one hand and poking the anode cap on the 6146 with the other hand.

Jokes aside, what the Bird does is not really very impressive especially for the price. You can bag a cheap SA and a directional coupler for less than a new one. Probably won’t last 30 years but at least in 30 years someone won’t have screwed a lightbulb to the top and used it as an ornament. And you probably don’t have to scrape off the yellow film if it’s a second hand one.

If you stick a 40dB power tap on the business end of a tinySA you have something far better for the price of a bird slug.

Also yes a licensed ham here. Ashamedly.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2022, 06:31:08 pm by bd139 »
 

Online xrunner

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Re: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters
« Reply #70 on: June 07, 2022, 10:12:04 pm »
Costs of a Bird vs an hp power measurement system

Bird model 43 wattmeter: $429

One element: Bird APM-100H 100W, 2 to 30 MHz $341

Total price $770 for one frequency range and power level

Prices from Martin RF Supply

https://www.martinrfsupply.com/

*** or ***

Complete hp power measurement system including hp 437B power meter, hp 8481A sensor, (10 MHz to 10 GHz, -30 to +20 dBm), sensor cable, case, fresh calibration certificate

$599.95

eBay auction: #284818702747

If you want to measure any power over the max safe level of the sensor +20 dBm (100 mW) just obtain the appropriate attenuator from various sources. For example, you want to measure 100W (+50 dBm), you just need a 100W 40 dB attenuator to put you in a safe zone of +10 dB into the sensor. Enter the atten. value in the power meter menu and it takes care of the math for you. Reads watts or dBm.

For example, you can get a 100W 40 dB atten. for $89 here -

eBay auction: #132631969717

Total price for system + one attenuator $688 for a much more capable system

You want to measure more power? Get more attenuators which are going to be less expensive than Bird elements (way less expensive).
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Offline joeqsmithTopic starter

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Re: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters
« Reply #71 on: June 07, 2022, 11:47:35 pm »
Don't the hams and CB hobbyist like watching the meters move while they transmit over the air?   With the Bird, you just plug it in-line with another short section of coax and buy the slug you need and you're good to put it on the shelf to admire.    With the HP, wouldn't it be a bit more complex to put in-line?   Then wouldn't it require some level of technical education to run it?  :-DD

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You could have your cake and eat it too!   Buy a sample tap for the Bird and plug the HP into it.   
https://www.ebay.com/itm/332838140665?epid=1762935428&hash=item4d7eb2faf9:g:qLUAAOSwJ2pbwLO1

If that's a bit over the top, how about a stand alone Bird tap?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/154607760813?hash=item23ff5735ad:g:4R8AAOSwC5thPgES
« Last Edit: June 08, 2022, 02:35:00 am by joeqsmith »
 

Online xrunner

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Re: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters
« Reply #72 on: June 07, 2022, 11:52:26 pm »
...  Then wouldn't it require some level of technical education to run it?  :-DD

Damn you Joe, you found the flaw!  :palm:
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Offline El Rubio

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Re: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters
« Reply #73 on: June 08, 2022, 01:55:26 am »
Costs of a Bird vs an hp power measurement system

Bird model 43 wattmeter: $429

One element: Bird APM-100H 100W, 2 to 30 MHz $341

Total price $770 for one frequency range and power level

Prices from Martin RF Supply

https://www.martinrfsupply.com/

*** or ***

Complete hp power measurement system including hp 437B power meter, hp 8481A sensor, (10 MHz to 10 GHz, -30 to +20 dBm), sensor cable, case, fresh calibration certificate

$599.95

eBay auction: #284818702747

If you want to measure any power over the max safe level of the sensor +20 dBm (100 mW) just obtain the appropriate attenuator from various sources. For example, you want to measure 100W (+50 dBm), you just need a 100W 40 dB attenuator to put you in a safe zone of +10 dB into the sensor. Enter the atten. value in the power meter menu and it takes care of the math for you. Reads watts or dBm.

For example, you can get a 100W 40 dB atten. for $89 here -

eBay auction: #132631969717

Total price for system + one attenuator $688 for a much more capable system

You want to measure more power? Get more attenuators which are going to be less expensive than Bird elements (way less expensive).

So, you compare the price of a brand new Bird & element to a used ebay auctioned power meter. Wouldn’t it more fair to price it against a new Keysight power meter and sensor?
 

Online xrunner

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Re: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters
« Reply #74 on: June 08, 2022, 02:05:34 am »
So, you compare the price of a brand new Bird & element to a used ebay auctioned power meter. Wouldn’t it more fair to price it against a new Keysight power meter and sensor?

Do the used Bird meters/elements come with a calibration certificate?
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