Author Topic: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters  (Read 182468 times)

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Offline xrunner

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Re: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters
« Reply #1025 on: February 01, 2023, 06:23:39 pm »
I took the time to watch four of his videos "The RF Field Tech" here -

https://www.youtube.com/@rffieldtechke5adx

Up front I will say I don't know him and he might be an RF genius. However; I saw very little of him touching the equipment in the cell sites he was in. I saw one about generators, one was all about safety and 5G emissions, another seemed to be about maintaining cables - but even in the cell site he showed the microphone cable from a Yaesu mobile radio and how frayed it was. Never saw him touch a single piece of RF test equipment. Yea it was in the one video I didn't watch - perhaps.

So I don't know ...  ::)
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Offline vk6zgo

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Re: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters
« Reply #1026 on: February 02, 2023, 12:14:19 am »
Someone was asking me something about using the NanoVNA to measure antennas.  I figured I would try a search for the person to show them a proper setup but instead came across this gem.  Linked to the 9:00 in.  Watch carefully. 

https://youtu.be/tCHAa-sjgcQ?t=535

Wait WTF? He transmitted into the port from the handheld?  :palm:

It certainly looked like he did.

I couldn't quite work out what he was maundering on about with the "through function", as he didn't seem to have S21 set on the screen.
In any case, he didn't kill the nanoVNA, as it worked normally afterwards.
That model of very small Icom handhelds has very low output power as standard, so maybe he "dodged a bullet" without knowing he had.

There are a number of good videos on how to test antennas with a nanoVNA, so I hope the original "person" was directed to one of them instead.

He talks about measuring two different SWRs, the antenna's and the transmitters.   I did not see where he shows the VNA working after the deed was done and after watching, I'm not sure they would even know. 
I was wrong, being misled by the fairly normal looking spike when he connected the antenna to CH0 at around 12:05
Quote

I did not point the OP to any videos, nor did I attempt to correct the person who put out this video.   I understood the OP's comment was about people are making false claims on their handheld radio antenna reviews.
You didn't make that point, this is what you said-
 "Someone was asking me something about using the NanoVNA to measure antennas.  I figured I would try a search for the person to show them a proper setup but instead came across this gem"
Quote
   They claimed reviewers use these low cost VNAs to make their measurements.  If you are aware of a decent video showing how it's done, feel free to post a link and I will sent the OP here.
Apart from your own stuff on nanoVNAs, the only videos I would trust would be W2AEW's ones, but he sticks to full size antennas, as well as other associated stuff.
 https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL4ZSD4omd_AzGK02MwlAWtK3H1N59QTrD

I am very dubious about testing handheld radio antennas with simple equipment, as the body of the handheld (& the user) make up an important part of the actual antenna system.
Quote

I'm actually working on a fairly large test on some antennas now where I am comparing the radiation patterns... for several 3D printed microwave horns.  Doing this in my home office rather than getting into a chamber as its more of a relative comparison.
 

Online joeqsmithTopic starter

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Re: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters
« Reply #1027 on: February 02, 2023, 01:41:59 am »
I did not point the OP to any videos, nor did I attempt to correct the person who put out this video.   I understood the OP's comment was about people are making false claims on their handheld radio antenna reviews.
You didn't make that point, this is what you said-
 "Someone was asking me something about using the NanoVNA to measure antennas.  I figured I would try a search for the person to show them a proper setup but instead came across this gem"

It's common that  people will start a discussion and as the conversation progresses, they provide more detail.   My posts here reflect the changes during the discussion.  In this case the OP had decided to remove their comment for some reason or another that talks about the reviews.  YT of course archives them.   See attached.   

I have never seen a professional test for the HT radios the OP asks about.  I would assume the follow some standard but it's nothing I know anything about.   I did go back and search again but didn't find anything worth posting.  Most were talking head ham videos.  One was pretty funny as the ham was jamming wire into their connectors.   

Offline Kosmic

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Re: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters
« Reply #1028 on: February 03, 2023, 12:02:27 am »
I wonder if those HT antennas are monopole. If it's the case then the ground plane would be in the device and thus not included in the test when connected to a NanoVNA. Might explain the bad results when testing the antenna alone.

Now is the ground plane really useful for transmission ? i'm not sure.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2023, 12:06:17 am by Kosmic »
 

Online joeqsmithTopic starter

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Re: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters
« Reply #1029 on: February 03, 2023, 06:48:24 pm »
Ham using "science" to compare some antennas.  At first, I thought oh no, here we go again.  Then he surprised me by actually taking  them on a road trip and puts them to use at  2 & 4miles.   He talks about the few who live in their scientific bathtub with their NanoVNA toward the end and cries BS.   

I think if I were reviewing hand held radio antennas, this is exactly what I would do or at least it would be a big part of the evaluation.   

If I were trying to show someone how to construct antennas and trim them,  most likely I would have some sort of bridge in my bathtub as a starting point.       

https://youtu.be/k-fkcgpGuOM?t=837

Offline vk6zgo

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Re: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters
« Reply #1030 on: February 04, 2023, 03:24:25 am »
Ham using "science" to compare some antennas.  At first, I thought oh no, here we go again.  Then he surprised me by actually taking  them on a road trip and puts them to use at  2 & 4miles.   He talks about the few who live in their scientific bathtub with their NanoVNA toward the end and cries BS.   

I think if I were reviewing hand held radio antennas, this is exactly what I would do or at least it would be a big part of the evaluation.   

If I were trying to show someone how to construct antennas and trim them,  most likely I would have some sort of bridge in my bathtub as a starting point.       

https://youtu.be/k-fkcgpGuOM?t=837

Certainly a nanoVNA, or some sort of bridge is something I like to include in my "bathtub", to at least know what the antenna "looks like" to the source.

Other characteristics are dependent on a whole raft of other things, so measuring the received signal level at a "remote" point is definitely a good idea, at least for VHF/UHF stuff, especially antennas on handheld radios.

It gets a bit messy with HF, where the desired angle of elevation of the radiated signal might mean that much of the signal is not well received at a relatively close "remote" point, & the azimuth pattern is also different at ground level.

I was initially surprised that his signal drops out at around 4 miles, but looking at the topography around his station, I can see why.
I have definitely done better with handhelds where I live, but, although looking down from the Darling Escarpment, the coastal plain
looks "as flat as a pancake", up close, there are many high points which help a lot.
 

Offline xrunner

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Re: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters
« Reply #1031 on: March 04, 2023, 01:52:09 am »
Bird 43 rackmount. If you want Big Iron here it is. Carrier / Sideband using two slugs.

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Offline Chat GPT

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Re: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters
« Reply #1032 on: March 10, 2023, 10:46:09 am »
Bird watt meters have been a trusted and reliable tool for measuring RF power for many decades, particularly in the CB and ham radio communities. They are known for their accuracy, durability, and ease of use. While there are now many other brands of watt meters available, Bird remains a popular choice among many RF professionals and enthusiasts.
 

Offline xrunner

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Re: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters
« Reply #1033 on: March 10, 2023, 11:58:23 am »
Bird watt meters have been a trusted and reliable tool for measuring RF power for many decades, particularly in the CB and ham radio communities. They are known for their accuracy, durability, and ease of use. While there are now many other brands of watt meters available, Bird remains a popular choice among many RF professionals and enthusiasts.

You say they are known for their accuracy, but you didn't say what the accuracy was, or which Bird wattmeter you were claiming was known for this accuracy. Can you tell us these figures if you know them?
I told my friends I could teach them to be funny, but they all just laughed at me.
 

Online joeqsmithTopic starter

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Re: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters
« Reply #1034 on: March 11, 2023, 06:44:59 pm »
Bird watt meters have been a trusted and reliable tool for measuring RF power for many decades, particularly in the CB and ham radio communities. They are known for their accuracy, durability, and ease of use. While there are now many other brands of watt meters available, Bird remains a popular choice among many RF professionals and enthusiasts.

You say they are known for their accuracy, but you didn't say what the accuracy was, or which Bird wattmeter you were claiming was known for this accuracy. Can you tell us these figures if you know them?

 :-DD :-DD  No ones going to touch that one!

Offline metrologist

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Re: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters
« Reply #1035 on: March 15, 2023, 03:03:04 pm »
The Bird 43 wattmeter was released more than 70 years ago. What else were you going to use back then?

Power Range: 100 mW to 10 kW (using Bird® Plug-in Elements)
Frequency Range: 450 kHz to 2.7 GHz (depending on element)
Insertion VSWR: 1.05 max. to 1000 MHz (with N Connectors)
Accuracy: ±5% of full scale

https://birdrf.com/Products/Test%20and%20Measurement.aspx
 

Offline xrunner

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Re: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters
« Reply #1036 on: March 15, 2023, 10:05:25 pm »
The Bird 43 wattmeter was released more than 70 years ago. What else were you going to use back then?

70 years ago? That's exactly what I would use ... 70 years ago.  ::)

Quote
Power Range: 100 mW to 10 kW (using Bird® Plug-in Elements)
Frequency Range: 450 kHz to 2.7 GHz (depending on element)
Insertion VSWR: 1.05 max. to 1000 MHz (with N Connectors)
Accuracy: ±5% of full scale

https://birdrf.com/Products/Test%20and%20Measurement.aspx

Yea I am very aware of those specs - what I wanted to know was if the entity posting, now known as Chat GPT, (and banned) knew it. That account was another name until the mods found out and renamed it to Chat GPT because that's where the text came from (unattributed to ChatGPT). But of course they never responded because they were too lazy to even ask ChatGPT for the specs. The account also made other posts on this forum that came from ChatGPT. That's the point of me asking them what the accuracy was. There are accounts being made here that are simply making posts that come out of ChatGPT and it's going to become an increasing issue in the months and years ahead.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2023, 11:44:15 pm by xrunner »
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Offline vk6zgo

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Re: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters
« Reply #1037 on: March 16, 2023, 12:24:48 am »
The big feature of Bird Wattmeters is not absolute accuracy, but rather repeatability.

In commercial use, I have mainly seen them in use as in-line indicators in installations where the original tests would have been done with much more accurate (& expensive) equipment.
The Bird Wattmeter was then placed permanently in line, & its readings recorded.
If it is reading high or low by a particular amount, it is very likely to still have the very same error in 20/30 years' time.

A Tech can visit a site, quickly check the reading on the "Bird", & if it hasn't changed, be reasonably confident that there is nothing amiss.
if it reads differently, it is time to "bring out the big guns".

Ultimately, some of these Wattmeters reach the Amateur Radio market, where they are prized because of repeatability.
Although some of the similar devices built for that market, & indeed, the CB one, offer similar accuracy, they are "built down to a price point" & due to poor mechanical design & bad soldering may fail in a relatively few years.

Of course, you know all this, but no matter how many times you tell it, Chat GPT will never know, as it treats every question as if it was the first time it was asked, & does not learn from interactions.
 

Online joeqsmithTopic starter

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Re: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters
« Reply #1038 on: March 21, 2023, 01:22:53 pm »
Saw what appears to be a vintage Bird for sale.   

https://chambana.craigslist.org/ele/d/georgetown-watt-meter/7600931469.html

Offline xrunner

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Re: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters
« Reply #1039 on: March 21, 2023, 09:11:10 pm »
Yea may be vintage.

But wait ... I see a Coaxial Dynamics slug in that thing. Isn't that considered blasphemy?  :-DD
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Offline vk6zgo

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Re: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters
« Reply #1040 on: March 22, 2023, 02:05:33 am »
Yea may be vintage.

But wait ... I see a Coaxial Dynamics slug in that thing. Isn't that considered blasphemy?  :-DD

Nope! They are totally compatible, so it is done regularly.
I wonder which is the "clone"?
 

Offline pienari

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Re: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters
« Reply #1041 on: May 16, 2023, 08:27:52 pm »
Meters and meters.
When i started to build rf amplifiers i used several different brand instruments because all was showing different results.

But after i bought digital oscilloscope i made 10:1 sample att to 50ohm ant line.

Today i can make 100% accurate measurements.

Just check voltage and go to
https://www.random-science-tools.com/electronics/dBm-Watts-volts.htm

You will get Average power.
 

Offline xrunner

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Re: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters
« Reply #1042 on: May 16, 2023, 08:38:37 pm »

Today i can make 100% accurate measurements.


Really?   ::)
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Online joeqsmithTopic starter

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Re: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters
« Reply #1043 on: May 17, 2023, 12:09:05 am »
You're such a doubter.    :-DD
 
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Offline xrunner

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Re: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters
« Reply #1044 on: May 19, 2023, 11:30:24 pm »
Was speaking with a local ham a few days ago about his effort to calibrate a Daiwa cross-needle power/SWR meter. If you don't already know, this type of meter reads forward and reflected power and SWR. By observing where the needles cross, and the markings behind this crossing point on the faceplate, you can read the SWR (approximately).

I said I have one also - a CN-103 (his was a different model) and I'd calibrated it before. We got to talking and he wondered if they could be "converted" to a digital read-out. I said I didn't see why not, but it sounds interesting and I'd think about it as a project.

So I'm thinking about it. I got the schematic and I want to make some measurements of the voltage range that the meter movement is receiving from the detected RF in this Daiwa design. I don't think I'll even need to be worried about the range switch - that is in there because they are using mechanical meter movements.

Also, if I do it, I'd want it to be 100% accurate too.  :-DD
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Online joeqsmithTopic starter

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Re: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters
« Reply #1045 on: May 20, 2023, 03:53:38 pm »
Is Daiwa in Japanese spittoon?


Offline xrunner

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Re: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters
« Reply #1046 on: May 20, 2023, 04:50:31 pm »
They're into sport fishing now it seems -

https://daiwa.us/
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Online joeqsmithTopic starter

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Re: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters
« Reply #1047 on: May 20, 2023, 06:22:00 pm »
Looks more like chewing tobacco than lake water.


Offline xrunner

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Re: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters
« Reply #1048 on: May 20, 2023, 06:41:15 pm »
Any and all dried fluids and scratches will be attributed to my cat.  :-DD
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Online joeqsmithTopic starter

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Re: CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters
« Reply #1049 on: May 20, 2023, 09:01:42 pm »
Fish, pussies and dribble.   Are we back on BD139's floozies or Watt meters?


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