NanoVNA Custom Software

[hendorog]

The maths is an inverse FFT.

rhb is a guru in that subject. I'm not, I just use a library. That makes it a one line operation. Example here:
https://github.com/hendorog/nanovna_test/blob/master/NanoVNA%20TDR.ipynb

One line at a time:

Code: [Select]

#Convert from freq domain to time domain
s11_gated = s11.time_gate(center=0, span=100)


Is this python? Unfortunately I don't familiar with this language. 
Could you please give me the link to the source of that s11.time_gate() function?

I don't know much python either. Its pretty simple to get started, and the few lines of code you see on my repository is all that you need.

That function is built into the scikit-rf package, so its free and the source is on github if you really want to go there.

Just install the latest Python (3.7) and tick the box to add to your PATH. That will also install pip.
Then install Jupyter notebook, which is a nice GUI and just makes it easy.
https://jupyter.readthedocs.io/en/latest/install.html

I think it is simpler to use pip instead of conda as it is one less thing to wrangle.

So something like this should get you started:

Code: [Select]

pip3 install --upgrade pip
pip3 install jupyter
pip3 install scikit-rf

# Now start it up, this will run it and display it in a browser.
jupyter notebook

There are other options, e.g. Matlab, or Octave or Labview, but this is as flexible, or more flexible and not really any more difficult.

[radiolistener]

Google for "mismatch uncertainty".

I found this article: https://www.microwavejournal.com/articles/6166-calculating-mismatch-uncertainty

But I'm not sure... If I understand correctly, mismatch uncertainty depends on VSWR source and VSWR load.

Does it means that when any of these VSWR is 1, then mismatch uncertainty also will be zero?

For exampel:

Source VSWR=1,
Load VSWR=1.32 (this is what NanoVNA CH1 have at 900 MHz).

ρload = 0.1379
ρsource = 0

Does it means that mismatch uncertainty is zero?

[hendorog]

Google for "mismatch uncertainty".

I found this article: https://www.microwavejournal.com/articles/6166-calculating-mismatch-uncertainty

But I'm not sure... If I understand correctly, mismatch uncertainty depends on VSWR source and VSWR load.

Does it means that when any of these VSWR is 1, then mismatch uncertainty also will be zero?

For exampel:

Source VSWR=1,
Load VSWR=1.32 (this is what NanoVNA CH1 have at 900 MHz).

ρload = 0.1379
ρsource = 0

Does it means that mismatch uncertainty is zero?

Mismatch uncertainty can be corrected in a VNA - the exact details depend upon the calibration and that is documented in the AN 1287-3 I referenced.
That is one of the advantages of a Vector Network Analyser as opposed to a Scalar Network Analyser - such as a Spec An + TG + Bridge.

The VNA is able to correct for its own inadequacies. The SNA cannot, and so the SNA's analog performance must be much better to get the same performance.

Hence this device we are talking about - a very cheap VNA - actually has quite respectable performance - particularly if you extract the data to a PC - because of the error corrections which can be applied.

[Flynt]

joeqsmith, I apologize, for what you call "SPAM", but I didn't get any of your Rejection messages, and as I wrote you, I don't read English well and I can't program ... I just needed your software, to work and I was even willing to give you a donation.

I can't use a Translator to convert 10 pages of trhead ...

Okay it does nothing, I will use the original software.

Thanks anyway, even if it didn't cost you anything send it to me ...

I just assumed from your acknowledgment to _Wim_ that you understood what they wrote and did not require any further response from me.

Hello Flynt, for the moment this software is not available for download. It was developed by joeqsmith to show what is possible with the Nanovna, to make some educational youtube video's about the NanoVNA and to inspire others to make apps of their own (which has worked already, thanks to 5q5r)

I do not ask for donations, do not enable ads,  have no Pateron's, nor do I beg people to join my channel.   

Suggesting that my making the software available to you wouldn't cost me anything is a naive view.   Considering that you required a personal response from me even though someone else had provided you with an answer, I doubt that by handing you the software that your questions would subside.   Even if I made it free, with no support implied, I suspect you and others would request support.   I would hope you are not suggesting that my time is worth nothing.     

Again, I suggest you support the people who are willing to invest their time to to create an open source platform.

Joeqsmith, you didn't understand anything ...
I HAVE NEVER THOUGHT THAT YOUR TIME DOES NOT APPLY, I ONLY REQUEST THE INSTALLER OF A PROGRAM YOU DEVELOPED ...

I think you didn't understand my intentions, and I'm not able to program.
However, not but nothing, the Gentile helped me
Radioman ...

On the other hand, these are the Americans ... We in Italy, among radio amateurs, help each other.

Bye Bye

[joeqsmith]

Joeqsmith, you didn't understand anything ...
I HAVE NEVER THOUGHT THAT YOUR TIME DOES NOT APPLY, I ONLY REQUEST THE INSTALLER OF A PROGRAM YOU DEVELOPED ...

I think you didn't understand my intentions, and I'm not able to program.
However, not but nothing, the Gentile helped me
Radioman ...

On the other hand, these are the Americans ... We in Italy, among radio amateurs, help each other.

Bye Bye

I'm glad we finally understand one another.    It's too bad that your not getting my work for free upsets you to the point you feel the need to make such ignorant comment about an entire country but it speaks of your character.     

You do bring up a valid point that what I have been doing is of no help to you.  Others have posted similar comments,  which is something I can live with. 

Take care. 

[KD0CAC John]

joeqsmith ,
I may have missed it , but do you provide a PAID service .
I have not picked up any computer language / and no programing .
So would be interested in paying for programing .
If I understand normal , similar to this , a one time fee for a program to run the nanoVNA , and then any future service is separate fees , or a package of services & fees ? 
Or your not interested in any of the above

I'm a free-market / libertarian type , kinda [ I have not found answers to all questions from the libertarian perspective , but agree with lots ] .

I can not work for free either , picking up electronic repair as [ maybe ] the last trade at 65 disabled from pervious trades construction , auto repair , welding , machining / gun-smithing , and now electronics repair / ham radio , most trades started as hobbies & can not seem to just buy off the shelf
A tool-jones forces me into building , repairing everything I own .
Even if I occasionally buy something new - I have to open it up and look under the hood , more fun .

[rhb]

I have no connection with @joeqsmith.  I've never even watched his YouTube videos.  I just wandered in here because I bought a nanoVNA and have been sucked into a black hole.  I have 20+ years of software support experience.

Badgering him like this is completely unreasonable. 

If you want the sort of software that @joeqsmith is playing around with, buy a VNWA or learn to program.  Tom Baier spends a *lot* of time providing support for his software.  You only need to read the VNWA mailing list to see how much work it is.  A staggering amount of the traffic on the VNWA list is trying to help people who did not read the manual, do not know anything about using a VNA and often very little about RF.  Yes, it is 10x the price, but it's also more capable.  However, very little of that is the hardware.  It's mostly the cost of the software support.

There are plenty of people working on open source programs for the nanoVNA.  As @joeqsmith suggested, give them some money.  Or learn to program and help out.  Join  nanovna-users@groups.io.

In any case, @joeqsmith is not responsible for your lack of ability.  He chose to invest his time and money in learning how to do something.  Those who are able are not the slaves of those who are not able.

Reg

[tautech]

I have no connection with @joeqsmith.  I've never even watched his YouTube videos.  I just wandered in here because I bought a nanoVNA and have been sucked into a black hole.  I have 20+ years of software support experience.

Badgering him like this is completely unreasonable. 

If you want the sort of software that @joeqsmith is playing around with, buy a VNWA or learn to program.  Tom Baier spends a *lot* of time providing support for his software.  You only need to read the VNWA mailing list to see how much work it is.  A staggering amount of the traffic on the VNWA list is trying to help people who did not read the manual, do not know anything about using a VNA and often very little about RF.  Yes, it is 10x the price, but it's also more capable.  However, very little of that is the hardware.  It's mostly the cost of the software support.

There are plenty of people working on open source programs for the nanoVNA.  As @joeqsmith suggested, give them some money.  Or learn to program and help out.  Join  nanovna-users@groups.io.

In any case, @joeqsmith is not responsible for your lack of ability.  He chose to invest his time and money in learning how to do something.  Those who are able are not the slaves of those who are not able.

Reg

Well put Reg. 

Joe's IP is his to do with as he pleases and if he chooses not to share it, tough titty.
He's developed these skills over many years and presumably his bike console is not shared either so to not give competitors an even footing when Joe races.
Nothing at all wrong with that.

[hendorog]

I have no connection with @joeqsmith.  I've never even watched his YouTube videos.  I just wandered in here because I bought a nanoVNA and have been sucked into a black hole.  I have 20+ years of software support experience.

Badgering him like this is completely unreasonable. 

If you want the sort of software that @joeqsmith is playing around with, buy a VNWA or learn to program.  Tom Baier spends a *lot* of time providing support for his software.  You only need to read the VNWA mailing list to see how much work it is.  A staggering amount of the traffic on the VNWA list is trying to help people who did not read the manual, do not know anything about using a VNA and often very little about RF.  Yes, it is 10x the price, but it's also more capable.  However, very little of that is the hardware.  It's mostly the cost of the software support.

There are plenty of people working on open source programs for the nanoVNA.  As @joeqsmith suggested, give them some money.  Or learn to program and help out.  Join  nanovna-users@groups.io.

In any case, @joeqsmith is not responsible for your lack of ability.  He chose to invest his time and money in learning how to do something.  Those who are able are not the slaves of those who are not able.

Reg

Well put Reg. 

Joe's IP is his to do with as he pleases and if he chooses not to share it, tough titty.
He's developed these skills over many years and presumably his bike console is not shared either so to not give competitors an even footing when Joe races.
Nothing at all wrong with that.

Seconded. Motion carried. 

There is a heap of free and/or open software and lots of information  for the nano and vna's in general.

All the info is out there now, whereas only a few years ago it was not.

[KD0CAC John]

Are you saying asking to pay for service is " Badgering " ?

[N2CUA]

Are you saying asking to pay for service is " Badgering " ?

More importantly, its a waste of your time to even try .. lol
 

[rhb]

I'm quite in awe of the nanoVNA.  @erik on the groups.io list has added an arbitrary scan function that will return a series of samples of arbitrary length and sampling via the console.  So a piece of cake to write a simple script to pull data off the nanoVNA, correct it and plot it with gnuplot.  Gnuplot will produce publication quality figures, so that's not shabby even if it's not the instant gratification that so many demand today.

A GUI such a @joeqsmith wrote is a *lot* of work.  Just designing the window layout takes weeks of work. But reading a bunch of numbers from the serial port and graphing them is not much trouble.  If someone is not willing to learn to do that I don't have much sympathy.

The audio codec chip has a unique 96 bit ID.  So it would be easy to sell 3rd party software for the nanoVNA which was locked to a particular device.  Of course, if your device dies, then so does your software license.  And realistically, such SW would cost more than the HW.  Is it likely that a $200 software package for a $35 device is a viable commercial venture?  I very much doubt it.  But once you have sold *one* copy you're stuck with the support problem or a lot of bad mouthing for not working for pennies per hour.

After putting $100K in labor into developing a seismic processing program I abandoned attempting to sell it because it because it quickly became apparent I was going to have to do $10K in free consulting to do an on site demo.  No guarantee of a sale and no way to get paid for configuring a Beowulf cluster for the demo  in 1999 when not many people knew how.

Personally, I think that the nanoVNA should be pure OSSW/OSHW.  If I were to develop the sort of software @joeqsmith has, I'd design HW with more dynamic range once I had the software done.  If you do the HW first, you risk it being obsolete before you finish the SW.  Over 90% of the software is completely HW agnostic.

Reg

[Bud]

I have no connection with @joeqsmith.  I've never even watched his YouTube videos.  I just wandered in here because I bought a nanoVNA and have been sucked into a black hole.  I have 20+ years of software support experience.

Badgering him like this is completely unreasonable. 

If you want the sort of software that @joeqsmith is playing around with, buy a VNWA or learn to program.  Tom Baier spends a *lot* of time providing support for his software.  You only need to read the VNWA mailing list to see how much work it is.  A staggering amount of the traffic on the VNWA list is trying to help people who did not read the manual, do not know anything about using a VNA and often very little about RF.  Yes, it is 10x the price, but it's also more capable.  However, very little of that is the hardware.  It's mostly the cost of the software support.

There are plenty of people working on open source programs for the nanoVNA.  As @joeqsmith suggested, give them some money.  Or learn to program and help out.  Join  nanovna-users@groups.io.

In any case, @joeqsmith is not responsible for your lack of ability.  He chose to invest his time and money in learning how to do something.  Those who are able are not the slaves of those who are not able.

Reg

Sorry what is the point of posting about a software but not making it available? I genuinely do not understand, can someone explain.

[amspire]

Sorry what is the point of posting about a software but not making it available? I genuinely do not understand, can someone explain.

Have I been following a different thread? I have never done much RF and I did get myself a nanoVNA and I have been finding joeqsmith's posts absolutely brilliant.

The graphics stuff is the glitzy fluff. The principal thing is the nanoVNA is a measurement device that outputs a list of measurements via USB serial interface. joeqsmith has shown us what you can do with the measurements that the nanoVNA is capable of. An incredible series of posts.

You do not even need to build your own graphical program - you can do anything joeqsmith did with fairly simple python scripts and you could output to a csv file or similar. Perhaps then number crunch in a spreadsheet if you want.

[radioactive]

Just another option for those that might prefer Java to hack on.  It is a hack job, but it works on Linux for me.  It should also work on Windows, Mac.
https://github.com/tvelliott/jNanoVNA

[joeqsmith]

Sorry about the drama.   

With a lack of torque wrench data and it being fairly common for me to see suggestions that torquing is not required, I thought I would have some fun.   My goal was to see how repeatable I could hand tighten an SMA.    As it turns out, I just don't have the knack and was unable to fool the $50 Nano.   Well, not at 4.75 to 5.0GHz anyway.   

The first 1200 or so sweeps where I am not moving anything,  it seems to be fairly stable. 

If you look at the second set of data, this is 2X 1206 resistors, of course the cal was done with the home made standards that use 1206 parts.  There are a slew of other problems.  So, just to be clear, I am not even remotely suggesting that the data has any meaning or that there is any point to what I am doing beyond my own amusement.

While sorting out some of my junk to put this test together, I came across my old transfer relay I mentioned.   I'm fairly certain that this came from the test set for my old HP VNA.   

[OwO]

There is a good open source VNA GUI here that I will be porting to the NanoVNA (most likely only NanoVNA V2 which will have a more capable command interface): https://github.com/xaxaxa-dev/vna/tree/master/vna_qt

I have also fed back the tip about the STM32F303 and most likely V2 will come with a F303CCT6 by default (most likely a GD32).

EDIT: fix typo

[joeqsmith]

joeqsmith ,
I may have missed it , but do you provide a PAID service .

I do not.   Anything I offer in the way of videos, test data and other information is for free as my way of giving back to the community and promoting the hobby.   

If you were serious about hiring me, in all honestly I would suggest you pick out what ever top of the line Keysight, RS or any other brand you like.  Don't hold back.   The sky's the limit.  In the end you will have a very nice system, and be much further ahead.   

[5q5r]

Just to reiterate, for those who might not have seen it: Myself and others have made a Python program for doing a number of the same things as Joe's software, fully open source and available to use and modify. It's available here: https://github.com/mihtjel/nanovna-saver

There are pre-built releases for Windows - for other platforms, download the code and run it using Python.

All potential contributors are very welcome to contact me directly, and requested features are pushed onto the project TODO list, from which I grab items to work on.

I hope this provides some use for members of the community.

[radiolistener]

if I understand correctly, TDR can be obtained by make IFFT applied to S1P. Is it correct?

It seems that it works, but the most confusing thing here is how to calculate proper time for points. 

Here is 0.5 meters RG316 with open end, measured with NanoVNA (it's real back and forth delay is about 0.495 ns):


Here is 10 meters RG316 with open end, measured with NanoVNA (don't know it's real delay, but 98.4 ns looks very close to velocity factor 0.66):


It shows signal magnitude after IFFT. Don't take attention to ST/ED/BW values on screenshot, these are rudiments from debugging

Is it correct way? 

Is it possible to calculate impedance instead of this unknown unit magnitude?

[radiolistener]

Here is more interesting measurement

SMA => 0.5 meters RG316 => SMA to PL adaptor => 1 meter LMR195 => PL to BNC adaptor => 1 meter RG58 => BNC to SMA adaptor => OPEN:

Red = magnitude
Green = re
Blue = im



The same with 50 Ohm load at the end:



It seems that these Chinese SMA-PL and PL-BNC adapters are crap 


Any idea on how to convert this magnitude into impedance value?

[Bicurico]

Hi,

Yesterday I had a bit time and started my "VMA NanoVNA Tool".

At this point it does not much and is of little use, except that it allows to export the data to Excel as a *.CSV file.

It may have bugs and does not look nice at all, but you can just run the executable and get your CSV file. No installation, no garbage files and no garbage on the Registry.

The reason I am uploading it here is to get some feedback on this eternal question of mine: "What is wrong with the supplied NanoVNASharp software?"

To me that software looks just fine and implements all graphs (mine does not do it correctly at this moment). The only thing it does not do, is to export data in CSV format for further Excel work. Would adding this feature solve the demand for alternative software (at least for most people)?

I understand that joeqsmith did his software because he did not like the graphics and refresh rate of NanoVNASharp. Plus he is free to do whatever he likes!

But what I really would like to understand and I have asked and got no reply (I know, I am dumb): what other functionalities do you guys want/need?

Also, the issue I have in further developing my software is that I simply have not understood VNA measurements: what do you read out of the charts and why and what else you would want to calculate based on the data. I only figured out the tuning of antennas. Reading the posts leaves me with many questions and, shame on me, I have not fully watched/rewatched joeqsmith great videos, due to total lack of time (I have been busy implementing a full error map compensation algorithm to my "VMA Simple Spectrum Analyzer" software).

Regarding the much discussed open source, freeware, shareware, what so ever:

1) If I was to develop my software further up to a level where no doubts you would prefer it over NanoVNASharp, then I would apply the same kind of licensing scheme as I have currently on my "VMA Simple Spectrum Analyzer" software. It will never be open source and not freeware, either. Except these initial versions which really don't add much to what already exists.
2) I don't believe in giving away work for free. Work done for free is, in my opinion and as the name implies, worthless. My work has a value, at least to me.
3) There is a lot of work and time involved in any of these developments. Based on my "VMA Simple Spectrum Analyzer", I can confirm that there are literally hundreds if not thousands of hours spent in development. Note that development is not only time spent typing code, but countless hours thinking on how to solve a particular problem. Add to this the years spent learning how to program, how to use (in this example) spectrum analyzers, development of actually new measurements and functionality. On top of this the money spent in equipment: in order for me to develop a spectrum analyzer software, I have actually purchased different spectrum analyzers (SSA3021X, R&S CMU200, R&S CRTU, HP8594E, HackRF One, ADALM Pluto, SMA, D6, LTDZ, ...)! So, indeed, there is a lot of investment involved, even if this is a non-profit hobby. Other than Flynt said "It would have cost you nothing" - it DID COST A LOT!!! Of course, replicating an executable on a computer does not cost much. But then, why doesn't Microsoft give free copies of their software? THAT would not cost anything, right: just making the software available for download? Or, wait a moment: it would cost them all the ROY and profit! Not being able to recognize the COST of software development is indeed a problem and I fully support joeqsmith's decision.
4) The much discussed software of joeqsmith has a problem (to those asking for it - certainly not for him), by the way: It was developed with the HOME version of LabVIEW. This version, while affordable for hobby use, does explicitly not allow to use the resulting applications for any commercial use. Independently if joeqsmith is worried about this or not: if it was me, I would not make the software public, for the following reasons:
a) I could not prevent any organisation to download and use the software for commercial purposes, thus not complying with the LabVIEW terms. I *think* it would not be a problem for me, but anyhow, why risk something when there is no personal gain at all?
b) I could not sell or accept donations for the software, as this is against the LabVIEW terms. It means that I would have to give out the software for free.
c) This would mean that I would get no return for my work, but instead, Chinese sellers of cloned NanoVNA would include my software (without even asking) and make profit, while I would be left as the dummy handling all support issues - for free.

Kind regards,
Vitor

[Bicurico]

Here is an example CSV file, generated with my software.

Regards,
Vitor

[Bicurico]

Here two pictures:

One of the software and one of Excel showing the graphs (not formatted, just a quick test).

Vitor

[radiolistener]

Bicurico, S1P file already compatible with Excel. Just copy-paste.