Author Topic: NanoVNA Custom Software  (Read 458111 times)

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Offline joeqsmithTopic starter

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Re: NanoVNA Custom Software
« Reply #925 on: April 17, 2021, 10:58:04 pm »
What I find interesting is the feel for needing higher resolution when looking at SWR.  As I mentioned, I came up with the idea of sweeping in segments after trying to collect S-parameters for a crystal to make a model for SPICE.   There you are working with a very narrow band.  An antenna, not so much.  Seems like it's just going to take longer to collect the data with little or any gains.    That said, the V2Plus4 I bought can scan over a 1000 points without segmentation and the performance in this frequency range is much better than the old hardware.   You may want to consider getting one.

Here's my antenna simulator at the standard 101 data points,  using a 2MHz Span for 3001 data points and a Span of 500KHz for 12002 data points.   I've heard that it's important to get that 3 places beyond the decimal as well...   :-DD

If you really feel you need this feature, let me correct the problems I noted and try to improve the sweep times.

Offline gardner

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Re: NanoVNA Custom Software
« Reply #926 on: April 18, 2021, 12:31:27 am »
Did you calibrate it for the 420-470 range, 420-480 range, some other range?  Want me to guess?

The calibration was over 384MHz-484MHz -- 434+/-50MHz

I did the sweep (6) because after the (5) segment, the graph never seemed to update.  I stopped the sweep at the start because it seemed like the right thing to do.  The manual doesn't say it should be sweeping or not prior to steps (2) (3) (4).  I took a guess.  Since the sweep seems to turn off after the segmented sweep and the graph gets updated/displays the final results, it seemed reasonable to guess that it should be off to start.

For grins I set up https://github.com/NanoVNA-Saver/nanovna-saver.  Their approach to segmented sweeps seems more what I would have assumed.  It is easy to configure and works alright with my unit.  It can't do as much as your LabVIEW software, but what it does do, I find easier to figure out and more stable with an old original NanoVNA.
--- Gardner
 

Offline joeqsmithTopic starter

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Re: NanoVNA Custom Software
« Reply #927 on: April 18, 2021, 12:33:12 am »
It's now available if you want to try getting your 12000 points of antenna data.    You should find it to be a bit faster.  Running from 1 to 300MHz with a 50MHz span required 1min 40 seconds with 1.08.   This new version requires about 17 seconds.   Other communications are faster as well and you may notice some commands are processed much faster.   

I have corrected the polar transmission mode.  Not sure how I missed that.   When using segments, the software always sweeps to or past the stop frequency.  It then truncates the data.   Greater than or equal bug.... 

Because it seems you want to run multiple segmented sweeps back to back, the software now shows you a popup telling you to press the Sweep to reset the VNAs ranges and enable sweeps.   It just saves you having to do this manually.  For me, it was no big deal as I was only collecting a single sweep. 

Not being able to replicate your problem with the firmware/hardware I have, I am not sure if this new version will have any effect on what you are seeing. 

Offline gardner

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Re: NanoVNA Custom Software
« Reply #928 on: April 18, 2021, 12:45:18 am »
What I find interesting is the feel for needing higher resolution when looking at SWR.

Well I don't, really.  Where I want more points is when I want to sweep from 100MHz to 500MHz and have the smith chart or the return loss chart look like something.  With too few points, the curve shapes wind up with large aliasing artefacts and aren't useful.  Once the bent wire, make-shift balun or section of twisted pair is in the ball park and I'm looking for tuning around the last 5MHz, the small number of points is fine.

With the nanovna-saver calibrations may be performed with a segmented sweep and have 1000 or more points to cover a large range of frequencies with enough points to keep artefacts somewhat at bay.  It also lets me do single port calibration, which is what I want at this stage of the game.
--- Gardner
 

Offline joeqsmithTopic starter

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Re: NanoVNA Custom Software
« Reply #929 on: April 18, 2021, 02:21:26 am »
What I find interesting is the feel for needing higher resolution when looking at SWR.

Well I don't, really.  Where I want more points is when I want to sweep from 100MHz to 500MHz and have the smith chart or the return loss chart look like something.  With too few points, the curve shapes wind up with large aliasing artefacts and aren't useful.  Once the bent wire, make-shift balun or section of twisted pair is in the ball park and I'm looking for tuning around the last 5MHz, the small number of points is fine.

With the nanovna-saver calibrations may be performed with a segmented sweep and have 1000 or more points to cover a large range of frequencies with enough points to keep artefacts somewhat at bay.  It also lets me do single port calibration, which is what I want at this stage of the game.

Not having ever tried it, I still have little doubt that the open source software would be much better suited for the radio hobbyist and general user.  It was written for the public which is why I continue to suggest people use it.   

I can understand the time required to measure the thru causes a loss in productivity over just performing the SOL.  Of course, one could always press the OK button without the thru inserted to save those few seconds.   

Here we have the simulated antenna being swept from 200MHz to 900MHz with 101 data points.   The one thing to notice that there isn't enough data to see the range crossover noise but the area I would expect we are interested in is clearly visible.   

******
Oh now I see the need. Those extra 34900 points made a huge difference.   :-DD   

 

Offline joeqsmithTopic starter

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Re: NanoVNA Custom Software
« Reply #930 on: April 18, 2021, 04:59:32 am »
Had to power cycle the old Nano again after the new firmware hung again.   The noise at the transition was much worse than the old firmware.  There have been some random glitches as well.  Not to mention, I can speed things back up with it.     The plan is to go back to the old firmware from RadioListener.   It's archived somewhere in this thread if anyone is interested. 

Offline joeqsmithTopic starter

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Re: NanoVNA Custom Software
« Reply #931 on: April 18, 2021, 02:13:47 pm »
Quote
I am a little puzzled by segmented sweeps.  With so few points in the built in frequency sweeps on the original NanoVNA, it seems that it would be useful to allow segmentation of sweeps for the "Main" tab -- SWR. Smith chart and so forth.  But when I tried that, it looks like I get a sequence of charts, updating once for each segment, rather than a single chart with all the segments on it.

After reading this comment a second time, I wonder if there was an expectation that when using segmented sweeps that you get a concatenated view of the data while it is being captured.  So the software would display all of the data captured up to the point of each segment.   Easy enough to add but a pure guess on my part if adding it would be useful to anyone.   
 
***
I tried it and personally like it, so it's in there. 
« Last Edit: April 18, 2021, 04:30:00 pm by joeqsmith »
 

Offline gardner

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Re: NanoVNA Custom Software
« Reply #932 on: April 18, 2021, 05:41:52 pm »
I wonder if there was an expectation that when using segmented sweeps that you get a concatenated view of the data while it is being captured.

Yes, that was how I imagined it would work, before I first tried it.  As I mentioned before, the appearance of the subcharts for different segments was not really how I pictured it working, but seemed to be according to design.

As it happens, NanoVNA-saver shows the same chart continuously during the sweep.  You can see the effect directly on the chart as additional sweeps are made and averaged, and as additional segments are swept in succession.  It's pretty well how I imagined it would work.
--- Gardner
 

Offline purpose

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Re: NanoVNA Custom Software
« Reply #933 on: April 18, 2021, 07:05:06 pm »
Mr. Smith,
Quick note to say that v1.10 will not work at 401 data points. v1.08 worked well and displayed the correct points value.
Switching the vna to 101 resolved the issue.

Peter

 

Offline joeqsmithTopic starter

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Re: NanoVNA Custom Software
« Reply #934 on: April 18, 2021, 07:19:23 pm »
That new version my be more to your liking then if you wanted to try it.  Still, I wouldn't spend too more time with it.     

I had not given much thought how the segmented sweep should work when I wrote it over a year ago.   I just knew I needed more data to run that particular demo.   
https://youtu.be/v01lSgWo904?list=PLZSS2ajxhiQD2gftdurGQoyGpUM_HobNI&t=989

It's not a big deal to change the code.  The problem is defining what it should do.  For this particular software, that hasn't been a problem as I wrote it for my own use.    Now that it is in the wild, I am open to making changes that would make it more useful to the general user.   

Recently someone posted that Labview is crap and the serial ports don't work.  Now that's some top notch feedback.   

Offline joeqsmithTopic starter

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Re: NanoVNA Custom Software
« Reply #935 on: April 18, 2021, 07:26:00 pm »
Mr. Smith,
Quick note to say that v1.10 will not work at 401 data points. v1.08 worked well and displayed the correct points value.
Switching the vna to 101 resolved the issue.

Peter

 :-DD :-DD  Yeah, this is what happens when I do a quick and simple change. 

It's like my previous post.   What are the exact settings you are using? Span, Start, Stop, Function?
When you say it does not work, what does it do?   

Should be simple enough to fix if you can explain how to replicate it.   If you can't, then I am left to guess.. 

Offline purpose

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Re: NanoVNA Custom Software
« Reply #936 on: April 18, 2021, 07:37:06 pm »
Yeah.... I like shiny things.

Standard defaults..
10M centre
2M span
Start 1M
Stop 300M

Crystal fixture as usual. Bridge, ref, chn ref and throw in the crystal.
Waveform not visible, just noise.
Points box showing 101, but with v1.08 it would show 401.
The auto sensing of data points seems kaput.

Peter
 

Offline purpose

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Re: NanoVNA Custom Software
« Reply #937 on: April 18, 2021, 07:47:06 pm »
What I see


What I expected to see
 

Offline joeqsmithTopic starter

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Re: NanoVNA Custom Software
« Reply #938 on: April 18, 2021, 07:58:04 pm »
Yeah.... I like shiny things.

Standard defaults..
10M centre
2M span
Start 1M
Stop 300M

Crystal fixture as usual. Bridge, ref, chn ref and throw in the crystal.
Waveform not visible, just noise.
Points box showing 101, but with v1.08 it would show 401.
The auto sensing of data points seems kaput.

Peter

Because you did not say, I am going to guess you are using the transmission function then.   

I am sure I am missing something.   

Are you using segmented mode?  What steps did you perform with the old versus new software?   You would need to made sure you detail this as the manual suggests, the order is important.   

****
Ok transmission then.

Forget the new software for now.  In 1.08, what exact steps did you take to get the 401 displayed?   
« Last Edit: April 18, 2021, 08:05:35 pm by joeqsmith »
 

Offline purpose

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Re: NanoVNA Custom Software
« Reply #939 on: April 18, 2021, 08:08:25 pm »
Forget the new software for now.  In 1.08, what exact steps did you take to get the 401 displayed?  

Not a single thing. It auto detected it and worked flawlessly from the start.
 

Offline joeqsmithTopic starter

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Re: NanoVNA Custom Software
« Reply #940 on: April 18, 2021, 08:24:35 pm »
Forget the new software for now.  In 1.08, what exact steps did you take to get the 401 displayed?  

Not a single thing. It auto detected it and worked flawlessly from the start.

Not a single thing?  Really?  Its not magic and certainly requires the human to do things.     Guessing your steps will make it much more difficult.       

You turned on the Nano with the fixture inserted and a crystal install.  You started the software, selected your defaults file. You then selected link.  Next you selected sweep.   You are using normalize which I doubt magically was enabled so, you may have removed the crystal, installed the short, stored the reference then selected the CHn-Ref.  Next you reinserted the crystal.   

Of course I don't see what you have included because I am only guessing at what you have done.   

Offline joeqsmithTopic starter

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Re: NanoVNA Custom Software
« Reply #941 on: April 18, 2021, 08:35:57 pm »
Let me guess, you are playing with some new version of firmware which supports 401 data points and I was supposed to just know this.   

Offline purpose

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Re: NanoVNA Custom Software
« Reply #942 on: April 18, 2021, 08:44:26 pm »
Not a single thing?  Really?
Really.
Same exact procedure with the different versions of software gives me different results.

No fixture, turn on the vna, then start the software and select defaults. Hit link and 1.08 will automatically update the data points to 401. Even if I use the 1.10 defaults. 1.10 just remains at 101.

And I am not pulling your plonker.

Peter

Same firmware that I informed you of a week ago. You even gave me an attaboy for documenting the firmware version.
 

Offline purpose

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Re: NanoVNA Custom Software
« Reply #943 on: April 18, 2021, 09:04:06 pm »
Just a quick note.
My NanoVNA H4 arrived, I then loaded the latest Dislord firmware (1.0.53 with 401 data points) into it.
Lo and behold it behaves itself very nicely with Mr. Smith's software, which eats up the extra data with ease.
3D charts take a little longer to display, but that would be expected.
Good to know.  Also smart idea to document the firmware. 

 

Offline purpose

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Re: NanoVNA Custom Software
« Reply #944 on: April 18, 2021, 09:07:25 pm »
Just saying that something has changed between 1.08 and 1.10.
 

Offline joeqsmithTopic starter

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Re: NanoVNA Custom Software
« Reply #945 on: April 18, 2021, 10:06:29 pm »
Not a single thing?  Really?
Really.
Same exact procedure with the different versions of software gives me different results.

No fixture, turn on the vna, then start the software and select defaults. Hit link and 1.08 will automatically update the data points to 401. Even if I use the 1.10 defaults. 1.10 just remains at 101.

And I am not pulling your plonker.

Peter

Same firmware that I informed you of a week ago. You even gave me an attaboy for documenting the firmware version.

So you have gone back to the problematic firmware that I gave you an attaboy for telling us what not to use?    Last I knew:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/rf-microwave/nanovna-custom-software/msg3525476/#msg3525476

Which is why all your earlier screen shots show 101 data points up until now.   At least we now know what has happened. 

Just saying that something has changed between 1.08 and 1.10.

Of course it did.  Did you think I roll the version for the fun of it?     


The way the Nano works, there is a command to request the frequencies that it uses.  In my early versions of the software, I would request the frequency, then the two data sets.  To speed things up, I would request only the first data set if I was using S11.   Later I only requested the frequencies when I changed one of the setting that would effect it.  Again, to increase the speed.   

When the V2+ came out, they were smart enough to do away with all that.  It's up to the software to calculate the table.   When I went to a common code base, I had left the frequency request in there.   The number of elements the Nano returns is the number of data points I used.   

Now we want to sweep / zoom faster.  Simple solution, ditch that frequency command.  The Nano has always used 101 data points, so lock it down and calculate the tables like how the V2+ works.  This is much faster as we don't have to wait for the Nano to send us that data.   

This works fine with the 1.08 firmware which at least defaults to 101 data points.  Of course, if you use firmware that has a different number of data points, its not going to magically use them.  It's not just the number of data points that are a problem,  the frequencies the software calculates would be wrong as well.   

They may have added similar commands as the V2+ that allows you to program in the data points.  You can imagine the nightmare this firmware mess can cause.  This is why the manual provides a link to the version I tested with. 

Quote
The software was tested with the following firmware.

https://github.com/ttrftech/NanoVNA/releases/tag/0.8.0

An attempt was made to test hugen79 1.0.45 NanoVNA-H_20210130.dfu which caused random errors in the data.  This was something that was found early on when I first started to look at the NanoVNA.  Sadly, a year has passed and the firmware is still unstable.   

The fact you have gone back to that version tells me there is some feature it has that is worth having bad data. 

Offline purpose

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Re: NanoVNA Custom Software
« Reply #946 on: April 18, 2021, 10:38:14 pm »
So you have gone back to the problematic firmware that I gave you an attaboy for telling us what not to use?

No, this is my new Nanovna H4 with firmware that gives up to 401 data points.
It worked fine with 1.08. It was nice to have a well rounded Smith Chart.

Of course it did.  Did you think I roll the version for the fun of it?   

OK... I left myself open to that one.

Of course, if you use firmware that has a different number of data points, its not going to magically use them.  It's not just the number of data points that are a problem,  the frequencies the software calculates would be wrong as well.

I've certainly seen a few Hz difference from 101 to 401 testing crystals, but v1.08 does appear to be crunching the greater numbers. Whether accurate ... only you would know.

The fact you have gone back to that version tells me there is some feature it has that is worth having bad data. 


Different beastie altogether.



 

Offline joeqsmithTopic starter

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Re: NanoVNA Custom Software
« Reply #947 on: April 18, 2021, 11:20:14 pm »
There are a few things that could be done.   
1) Obviously, do nothing requires the least effort.  Just stay with the old software.     

2) Add the frequency command so the table is scanned upon connecting.   It would need to be done before the Span and Center  are set.   It would work for a while but someone would have the bright idea to remove the command and break the software again. 

3)The software for the V2+ is user settable.   I have no idea if your new firmware supports a command like that or not.   The problem with this approach is people are not going to be smart enough to know how many points they need to set it to.   

4)It's easy enough to stay with the old method, but it's too slow if you want to use the segments and like the first approach, may brake in the future.   

5)Another option would be to lock the software to a version of firmware. 

Maybe there are other options.  I get the feeling that the firmware will continue to cause problems.   I'm thinking option 3.  If they remove the command in the future, I don't care as I no longer use it.  It is just that closer to the V2+ software.   It could be saved in the defaults file for both flavors of software.   And again, lets not forget the reason I ditched that frequency command was for the speed.   

The other problem with option 3, people will think they can set the Points to what ever number they want.  They may think it has something to do with segmented sweeps.  Option 2 is looking better....   
« Last Edit: April 18, 2021, 11:40:06 pm by joeqsmith »
 

Offline purpose

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Re: NanoVNA Custom Software
« Reply #948 on: April 18, 2021, 11:41:12 pm »
There are a few things that could be done.   
1) Obviously, do nothing requires the least effort.  Just stay with the old software. 


That sounds right up my street.

2) Add the frequency command so the table is scanned upon connecting.   It would need to be done before the Span and Center  are set.   It would work for a while but someone would have the bright idea to remove the command and break the software again. 

I wouldn't have a clue where to begin.

3)The software for the V2+ is user settable.   I have no idea if your new firmware supports a command like that or not.   The problem with this approach is people are not going to be smart enough to know how many points they need to set it to.   

I would have to include myself in the not smart enough group.

4)It's easy enough to stay with the old method, but it's too slow if you want to use the segments and like the first approach, may brake in the future.

I spent the best part of the day re-reading this thread in search of radiolistener's elusive firmware. I think he has deleted most of his links, but think I found his github (https://github.com/qrp73/NanoVNA-Q), as the dates seem to be about right.
I'm willing try it out in my first little nano, in the hope of replicating your setup.

5)Another option would be to lock the software to a version of firmware.

Firmware takes moments to change. I wouldn't mind that in the slightest.

Maybe there are other options.  I get the feeling that the firmware will continue to cause problems.   I'm thinking option 3.  If they remove the command in the future, I don't care as I no longer use it.  It is just that closer to the V2+ software.   It could be saved in the defaults file for both flavors of software.   And again, lets not forget the reason I ditched that frequency command was for the speed.   

Speed is nice, accuracy even better, but I wouldn't know what to do with either.

Peter
 

Offline joeqsmithTopic starter

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Re: NanoVNA Custom Software
« Reply #949 on: April 19, 2021, 12:24:00 am »
If we go with option 3 and save it to the defaults, it certainly makes the code cleaner.   It could be a pull down menu to force 101 or 401.   Then again, the firmware will then break it in the future.   So keeping it flexible would make more sense.   Use the default of 101, but just allow you you change it.   

Of course, in cases where people have a Nano fetish, they may want one default file for their entire collection.    :-DD   There was a person who had bought five of them and I think they wrote they had damaged three. 

Yes, that looks like their code.  A shame that the people doing the large releases didn't follow suit.   That code has problems as well but I am not having to power cycle the Nano with it, no random jumps in the data, it's faster and the range change transitions are cleaner.   

If you want to try it with a programmable points setting like the V2+, let me know.  A few minutes and we could have it in there. 

****
Because the V2+ has a programmable number of data points, I store this with each calibration.  When you load a calibration, it sets up the VNA's defaults. 

I do the same thing with the original Nano.  I don't think this would be a problem as I doubt you would try and use the same calibration files from one version of the firmware to the next.   

 
« Last Edit: April 19, 2021, 12:34:00 am by joeqsmith »
 


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