Good morning Mr. Smith,
Thank you for the reply and comments!
FYI OWO had posted firmware for the V2Plus4 which may allow it to make these measurements. It was not an official release and I have no plans to try it.
Are you referring to this post?
https://groups.io/g/NanoVNAV2/message/2133Actually, I had included the reference but no matter.
Well, I think it matters. Because if I had found such a reference, I would not have asked. It is also possible that it was not too obvious and then I did not notice it, in which case I apologize.
I've posted I had problems when using that version with my software but you are certainly free to run any firmware you like.
Probably somewhere in the posts starting from the page 20 of this topic
.
I didn't have time to read and digest all those posts, but I'll look over them after I return from vacation.
You will notice that the post was edited by myself. Often I will post a series of * followed by the reason for the change. In this case, my poor grammar made it difficult for even me, the person who wrote it, follow.
Well, see? A matter of interpreting expressions and practicing English fluently. My apologies!
Now did the manual at any point in the section they refer to talk about turning off the sweeps. Nope. I wonder if other software requires you to turn them off [...]
Mr. Smith, in other software it is not stipulated directly, but it can be seen from their use. As an example, NanoVNA-Saver or VNWA-3 software. When you calibrate the device, the sweep is turned on automatically only when the calibration standards are applied and when the user presses the corresponding buttons. After completing the calibration operations, the sweep is inactive and can be turned on by the user when needed.
I also used other older analyzers, such as the HP8714B, where things are pretty much the same: you calibrate it and start the sweep manually, when you want.
Now I hope you understand that once I used other systems that behaved relatively identically, I couldn't guess that your software is based on a slightly different philosophy
Again, I would expect the reader to follow along in the manual. In section 12.5, Displaying Data it states "Select the Sweep button and the software will begin collecting data from the V2+. " . After this the manual never states to turn it off. [...]
Again, the software is not for the beginner.
I have noticed that you often mention that your software is not for beginners. It's very good that you say this, but it depends on what you mean by beginners. Personally, I have nothing to do with the RF pro area, but I have a basic understanding of the principles of operation of a VNA, and since 2012 and until now I have had access and used several types on the amateur market (eg: miniVNA series, N2PK VNA, DG8SAQ VNWA-3E, MetroVNA Deluxe) and with some older professional VNAs (such as HP8714B) or slightly newer stuff, such as Agilent N9912A (portable), Anritsu MS46322A.
However, the particularities of design and use (including menus, functions, names) may differ from one example to another.
The same happened with your software, and it will probably happen again and the learning curve will be quite steep.
Too funny. It's as if you are not wanting to understand what these buttons do and want to just press them at random. 12.6 Normalization Example, covers using Chn-Ref rather than running a full calibration. By the time the reader gets to to 12.8 SOLT Calibration, the CHn-Ref is still active and the second sentence is to turn it off. Random button pressing is never going to work. You need to learn what each button does to leverage its use. [...]
Additionally, there have been ongoing efforts to create other software for the NanoVNAs. I have not been following their development but understand these programs have been largely adopted by the radio community. My software was not written for this group. It was designed as an engineering tool for the RF experimenter.
Mr. Smith, again - it is clear that you designed the software first for your personal use (maybe some friends) and probably without the intention of giving it in that form to others. Therefore, its use is less intuitive.
In the case of the series products, most manufacturers have implemented similar functions and modes of operation, to reduce the learning curve and to ensure that the potential buyer (user) will not be discouraged.
I encountered a different situation with Rohde & Schwarz products, which have different and less intuitive menus than those from HP, for example. However, for each device, there are very clearly stated procedures that leave no room for interpretations based on previous experiences.
In your case, you have a software that you offer for free and as in the case of Linux, people should expect that you will not have the time (and probably not the disposition) to document each element. So the RTFM is the best for every potential user, *but* the direct advice from the author is essential.
I already understood you, it remains to be seen how you will want to treat what you started, if you want to help amateurs with items from the pro area and if observations such as those made by me can cause you to add details to the user manual which you may not have thought of.
Obviously, it's up to you first
The manual is clear that the software was not written for the amateurs. It's not a matter of liking or disliking but rather the amount of support many from this group will require.
Mr. Smith, you are not alone, believe me
As I exemplified above, it is not a matter of amateur or professional to deduce that the sweep must be active when you do the calibration. And also, although you posted pictures in the manual, the fact that you have to use ChnRef ON to calibrate and OFF after that, is less visible (although you are right that you wrote about it).
Believe me, I also turned to a friend with experience in the field, who did not "catch" the trick of using your software, even after 15 minutes of remote session on my PC.
It's like switching from HP/Anritsu to R&S.
Your software seems very cool and elaborate, but it still needs some additional documentation.
But once here, the contributions of those who will want to post (as I am willing to do) may help and eventually convince you to include additional explanations in your future revisions of the user manual
Later, you can also do something else, if you like: extra paid support. You can get an advanced edition of the manual, which includes more examples and detailed explanations, for a fee. If it has an affordable price, people will definitely buy it.
I doubt it actually makes sense. Read the manual on normalization and run some experiments until you understand what that button actually does.
Be sure I will
Now, the nanoVNA is with my father, so that he can get used to it a little, and I go on vacation. When I return, I will resume the experiments and digging ;-)
But don't be so sure that what I saw and what I already read about your software, it didn't make sense.
Regarding normalization, if it has the same meaning as the one I used for the old HP8714B, then you may have already understood ;-)
There, the procedure has been named "Normalization Calibration".
The analyzer stores measured data taken ( DUT not connected) into memory, and divides subsequent measured data by the stored data in order to remove frequency response errors. On that device, the normalization calibration could be used either for transmission or for a reflection measurement. At the end of the procedure, the DUT is inserted and when starting sweep, the data displayed is the transmission coefficient for the DUT (including all the connectors and cables) divided by the transmission coefficient for the connectors and cables alone.
So, do you think that in the case of your software, the normalization process does the same thing?
I would guess that I spent 10 hours this week answering questions from the amateur group. Most with the need to write me directly about their own personal problems. I suspect they don't want to ask questions in a public forum as they feel they are experts and it looks bad in front of their peers (ego).
With all due respect, but honestly, I think it's exactly the opposite.
In general, a beginner is intimidated when dealing with more experienced people, or even worse, with professionals who "take them up" or throw them a dry and harsh "RTFM"
But this is not my case, as I said and as you noticed.
After all, that's the purpose of forums: to provide quick support to those in need. Not to send them to read volumes of technical literature (if not). It is true that in the case of your software, both variants can be applied: both the short one, but also RTFM, without which the use cannot be deepened.
Even though you had problems with turning on the light switch so to speak, at least you put it out there on a public forum so others could learn. For that, you have my respect.
Thank you for your understanding and I assure you that the feeling of respect is mutual !
Chapeau bas, Mr. Smith!
I also assure you that I have always enjoyed to share with those around me some of the experience I have gained, as much as it is.
In engineering its learning to use the materials to solve other problems. That learning starts with a higher education and takes a life time.
Believe me I know and understand this aspect. I am also an engineer, but not in the RF field.
It's not that the amateurs could not learn these skills, I just suspect most have little interest in such things.
Many of the radio amateurs are also engineers (and even in the area of RF or telecommunications), a good part of them are even involved in complex projects (for example, space communications, satellites, etc.). Some of them are even employees of companies that produce equipment for amateur radio (Icom, Kenwood, Yaesu, etc.) or for the professional area.
Many of the special software used by radio amateurs were designed by their colleagues in the professional field.
However, the hams who do not work in the professional area, have minimal needs to learn radio engineering and should not be treated "from above". On the contrary, they need a help to overcome some barriers and to be able to use some cheap devices (such as NanoVNA) with the help of specialized software (such as the one you released) to achieve their small hobby goals - those that produce them joy.
I was always happy when I was able to produce a smile of joy on the face of an amateur radio colleague whom I helped to build a project, to tune an antenna, or to understand something specific. And I am convinced that you know this feeling too!
I'm ending here my reply and the plea for the amateurs, thanking you for your understanding and congratulating you for the work you've done when making this software. I also express my hope that by understanding the above, especially from the perspective of a former ham, you will treat amateurs with more understanding ;-)
Best regards,
Bob
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