Author Topic: NanoVNA Custom Software  (Read 533524 times)

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Offline joabel1971

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Re: NanoVNA Custom Software
« Reply #2425 on: July 19, 2024, 02:49:31 pm »

 I'm trying to analyze patent#512,340 for an interleaved coil.   I think the question becomes - why are you here - besides slandering things you don't appear to understand?

There was no slander, simply asking why are you here ???

Go after those grants, you are obviously well positioned to acquire such!!

BTW we're here because we know what we are doing (backed up by 32 granted US Patents) and appreciate the quality of some folks that are also here :-+

So again, why are you here :-//
Best,

Answer already given.  I'm trying to analyze patent 512,340.   If you "know what you are doing", then you would have given your educated answers to how that can be done.   But, you weren't even willing to look through patent - so never mind.   
 
 

Online mawyatt

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Re: NanoVNA Custom Software
« Reply #2426 on: July 19, 2024, 03:55:16 pm »
We have read the patent and at first glance don't buy the discussion & claims.

First off, the incremental inductance is proportional to conductor length, and then the outer turns contribute more inductance than the inner turns. The coil supports the applied voltage (assumed AC here), thus the outer turns with have a larger voltage drop than the inner turns with the sum equal to the applied voltage. This will cause the voltage difference between turns to be non-uniform and larger on the outer turns and smaller on the inner turns, this alone seems to violate the patent discussion starting at ~85.

Secondly, hopefully the coil isn't an "Over Unity Device", so storing more than "250,000" times as much energy would imply that a simple 1H coil with applied 100VAC, assuming 60Hz, would conduct 265ma and store 0.035 Joules, so this "specially wound" coil would store 250,000 times as much energy as a conventional coil, or 8,795 Joules!!!

We must remember that inductive coil energy is E = (L*I^2)/2, and this implies a coil inductance of 250,000 times increase, or 250,000H that's just not going to happen!!!

Applying EM analysis to the coil described in patent 512,340 and one should find some interesting characteristics, one of which it doesn't store 250,000 times as much energy as a conventional coil!! For simplicity think of the incremental inductance per coil turn and calculate the incremental stored energy per turn, as the sum total should be equal to (Leff I^2)/2 where Leff is the total incremental inductances summed over the whole coil.

Also from First off above, the incremental inductance concept is utilized in special wide-band RF coils commonly used a chokes where the coil is wound in a cone shaped spiral. This unique shape gives a much wider inductance range over frequency than a simple solenoid or flat spiral type coil. A little EM analysis will show such.

You could easily construct a small coil for physical measurements. Please be careful as if we are wrong one could easily kill themselves!!

Good luck on your intellectual endeavors!!

Best,



Curiosity killed the cat, also depleted my wallet!
~Wyatt Labs by Mike~
 
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Offline joabel1971

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Re: NanoVNA Custom Software
« Reply #2427 on: July 19, 2024, 04:30:04 pm »
We have read the patent and at first glance don't buy the discussion & claims.

First off, the incremental inductance is proportional to conductor length, and then the outer turns contribute more inductance than the inner turns. The coil supports the applied voltage (assumed AC here), thus the outer turns with have a larger voltage drop than the inner turns with the sum equal to the applied voltage. This will cause the voltage difference between turns to be non-uniform and larger on the outer turns and smaller on the inner turns, this alone seems to violate the patent discussion starting at ~85.

Secondly, hopefully the coil isn't an "Over Unity Device", so storing more than "250,000" times as much energy would imply that a simple 1H coil with applied 100VAC, assuming 60Hz, would conduct 265ma and store 0.035 Joules, so this "specially wound" coil would store 250,000 times as much energy as a conventional coil, or 8,795 Joules!!!

We must remember that inductive coil energy is E = (L*I^2)/2, and this implies a coil inductance of 250,000 times increase, or 250,000H that's just not going to happen!!!

Applying EM analysis to the coil described in patent 512,340 and one should find some interesting characteristics, one of which it doesn't store 250,000 times as much energy as a conventional coil!! For simplicity think of the incremental inductance per coil turn and calculate the incremental stored energy per turn, as the sum total should be equal to (Leff I^2)/2 where Leff is the total incremental inductances summed over the whole coil.

Also from First off above, the incremental inductance concept is utilized in special wide-band RF coils commonly used a chokes where the coil is wound in a cone shaped spiral. This unique shape gives a much wider inductance range over frequency than a simple solenoid or flat spiral type coil. A little EM analysis will show such.

You could easily construct a small coil for physical measurements. Please be careful as if we are wrong one could easily kill themselves!!

Good luck on your intellectual endeavors!!

Best,

That's great.   And, yes, cone shaped templates have also been fabricated for this project - for better testing options.   However, the reason I went to the NanoVNA Custom Software Thread - was to get opinions on how this coil could be measured and interpreted correctly with a VNA.   I will offer the questions & information I posed on another forum below:

This information & set of questions is for anyone who might be able to consider this scenario. 
 
I am attempting to measure & understand the S11 and S12 characteristics of an interleaved, self-resonant, helical coil (not an antenna).
The wire will be wrapped on a 1-inch diameter tube. 
 
An interleaved coil is also considered expired patent #512,340 - which claims self-resonance, inductance AND capacitance, and 250,000x the energy storage capability of a 1-wire coil.
https://patents.google.com/patent/US512340A/en
 
I know the frequency that I want to put through the coil.   Specifically, it is 1.387,114 Mhz - which translates to a wirelength of 216.2762 meters and real resistance of 73.231 ohms.   
 
So, the coil will be made from 2 series-coupled lengths of 30 AWG copper magnet wire (each being 108.1381 meters long).
I can probably get close to the correct wirelength - since the coil length calculates to about 33 inches long. 

1.  The coil is made from 2 pieces of interleaved wire (not twisted pair)- meaning 2 wires that are adjacent to each other.   Then the end of one wire is coupled at the opposite end of the other wire.    It allows a signal to pass through the coil twice - but also creates a coaxial wire-type structure (which is what my questions relate to.)
The adjacent insulated pairs/windings will be snug up against (touching) the prior turns.
I am wrapping a helical version (and potentially a cone version) of patent 512,340 - not a pancake shape.
 
2.  The copper wire is Essex brand 30 AWG copper magnet wire, with a 200 degree dual-poly enamel of some type.
Relative permittivity & velocity factor are currently unknown.  I've contacted Essex to try to get velocity factor & relative permittivity information of the enamel, but have not heard back.   

    Insulation: Polyester w/ Polyamideimide Overcoat
    NEMA Description: MW-35-C
    Build: Heavy Min-Nom
    Temperature Rating: 200°C (392°F)
 
3.  AllAboutCircuits.com gives formulas for characteristic impedance & velocity factor - of both adjacent conductors and equivalent coax setups .
https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/textbook/alternating-current/chpt-14/characteristic-impedance/
 
4.  I have not yet equalized these 2 formulas - to find the relationship between 50 ohm coax & the impedance of the adjacent wire conductors. 
It will also be useful to measure the actual length of wire ahead of time.

The bottom line is, however - I am trying to measure an interleaved coil - not a straight cable.
 
5.  To make it easier - I could also test shorter 1/4-wave coils - such as an 8.3 inch wirelength (1.42 Ghz), or a 33 inch wirelength (355 Mhz).
 
6.  Finally, my questions:   
a.  Firstly, does the NanoVNA normally show a resonant peak for coaxial cable - based on it's cable length resonance formula?   (wirelength = 300 / frequency in Mhz).
Whether wound as coil or straight 2-wires - would the resonant point remain the same based on the wirelength?   
 
b.  Specifically, will the the results of the NanoVNA measurements distinguish the coil as a type of coaxial cable - since interleaved wires are defined as 2 adjacent wires separated by a dielectric?    Or not? 
I'm assuming the characteristic impedance of the interleaved coil won't be 50 ohms. 
 
c.  Conversely, would the measurement results from the NanoVNA be able to distinguish that the device is a coil?   Or would the results look like a length of coaxial?
 
d.  Would the NanoVNA also be able to give an accurate wirelength measurements for the interleaved coil - if the coil DOES somewhat behave as a coax cable?
 

Online mawyatt

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Re: NanoVNA Custom Software
« Reply #2428 on: July 19, 2024, 04:45:40 pm »
Best to get a NanoVNA to help with your questions, they aren't expensive :-+

Must remember the NanoVNA just makes measurements and can't interpret if the measurements are from a coil, resistor, or capacitor. The user decides what the VNA displays which can be equivalent parameters for R, L and C, and then user can interpret how these represent the actual DUT.

Effective Coaxial Cable length can be measured by using reflectometry or TDR, the NanoVNA supports this measurement as well.

Best,
Curiosity killed the cat, also depleted my wallet!
~Wyatt Labs by Mike~
 

Offline joabel1971

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Re: NanoVNA Custom Software
« Reply #2429 on: July 19, 2024, 04:50:25 pm »
Best to get a NanoVNA to help with your questions, they aren't expensive :-+

Must remember the NanoVNA just makes measurements and can't interpret if the measurements are from a coil, resistor, or capacitor. The user decides what the VNA displays which can be equivalent parameters for R, L and C, and then user can interpret how these represent the actual DUT.

Effective Coaxial Cable length can be measured by using reflectometry or TDR, the NanoVNA supports this measurement as well.

Best,

That's right, but patent 512,340 claims that capacitive & inductive reactance cancels out - at the resonant frequency.   How should I consider that different - from from a 1-wire coil?   
 

Online mawyatt

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Re: NanoVNA Custom Software
« Reply #2430 on: July 19, 2024, 04:54:35 pm »
Suspect all coils have a Self Resonance, as they all have Inductance and Capacitance, this is not unique to Patent 512,340 coil. When the inductive reactance cancels the capacitive reactance you have resonance.

Best,
Curiosity killed the cat, also depleted my wallet!
~Wyatt Labs by Mike~
 

Offline joabel1971

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Re: NanoVNA Custom Software
« Reply #2431 on: July 19, 2024, 05:05:17 pm »
Suspect all coils have a Self Resonance, as they all have Inductance and Capacitance, this is not unique to Patent 512,340 coil. When the inductive reactance cancels the capacitive reactance you have resonance.

Best,

Gotcha.   So, if Inductance & Capacitance cancels out - it appears all I will have is a resistor (and a current-driven Inductively-Coupled Plasma jet).   
To fully analyze & understand such a DUT - I knew I would need to build a 1-wire & 2-wire coil of the same length - to figure out if there are differences.
But it doesn't hurt to ask - if someone might have an educated guess. 
 

Online mawyatt

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Re: NanoVNA Custom Software
« Reply #2432 on: July 19, 2024, 05:18:13 pm »
Since these are flat spirals they won't follow N^2 like Solenoid types, probably something less than N^2 for the flat coil.

Stacking a pair of flat identical spirals should increase the overall inductance of a single isolated flat spiral and if they are closely coupled (one on top the other) the current flows in the same direction on the top and bottom spirals. Then one would suspect that the result would yield ~ 4 times that of a single flat spiral, thinking of this a a Two Turn (N=2) Solenoid equivalent where a Turn in this case is the flat spiral.

Anyway, an EM simulation should yield more insight.

Best,
Curiosity killed the cat, also depleted my wallet!
~Wyatt Labs by Mike~
 

Offline joabel1971

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Re: NanoVNA Custom Software
« Reply #2433 on: July 19, 2024, 05:27:05 pm »
Since these are flat spirals they won't follow N^2 like Solenoid types, probably something less than N^2 for the flat coil.

Stacking a pair of flat identical spirals should increase the overall inductance of a single isolated flat spiral and if they are closely coupled (one on top the other) the current flows in the same direction on the top and bottom spirals. Then one would suspect that the result would yield ~ 4 times that of a single flat spiral, thinking of this a a Two Turn (N=2) Solenoid equivalent where a Turn in this case is the flat spiral.

Anyway, an EM simulation should yield more insight.

Best,

Here's a valid question.   What if the patent implies a bird's eye view of a cone shape - not a pancake?   I mean - there's lots of spelling mistakes in the patent (probably through OCP scanning errors over the years) - so maybe a side-view of the coil is also, somehow missing.     It says directly on the diagram that there is "No Model.", so maybe something is missing?   

Since I have no use for the pancake shape - I will be concentrating on helical & cone shapes, anyway.
You can't really build an ICP jet with a pancake coil.     
 

Offline joeqsmithTopic starter

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Re: NanoVNA Custom Software
« Reply #2434 on: July 19, 2024, 06:47:36 pm »
You could easily construct a small coil for physical measurements.

Agree, a few minutes of work..  I was surprised they had not tried anything. 

Quote
Suspect all coils have a Self Resonance, as they all have Inductance and Capacitance, this is not unique to Patent 512,340 coil. When the inductive reactance cancels the capacitive reactance you have resonance.
Nothing like stating the obvious.   :-DD 


Quote
Stacking a pair of flat identical spirals should increase the overall inductance of a single isolated flat spiral and if they are closely coupled (one on top the other) the current flows in the same direction on the top and bottom spirals. Then one would suspect that the result would yield ~ 4 times that of a single flat spiral, thinking of this a a Two Turn (N=2) Solenoid equivalent where a Turn in this case is the flat spiral.
Agree, 4X for Tesla patent, or we could make a non-inductive coil if the two are connected at the same end.  I've never seen a non-inductive WW resistor made that way but, maybe we could get some free energy from it...   Again, just stating the obvious.

Seems like it would be easy enough to work the math and build up a coil.  Measure it with the cheap VNA and RLC meter.  I may spend a few minutes tonight and see if they will award me some of that warp drive grant money for my efforts.   :-DD

***
Forgot to say, I was impressed you actually got him to drop the delusional BS and somewhat focus on something real for a change.  Good job with that!   


Offline joeqsmithTopic starter

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Re: NanoVNA Custom Software
« Reply #2435 on: July 19, 2024, 08:50:59 pm »
Seems like it would be easy enough to work the math and build up a coil.  Measure it with the cheap VNA and RLC meter.  I may spend a few minutes tonight and see if they will award me some of that warp drive grant money for my efforts.   :-DD

1.  Joe, it looks like you are one changing your tune - since you said you had no use for the patent.
However, it took the patience of other people here - to break through that barrier. 

It's the entertainment value.

Offline joabel1971

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Re: NanoVNA Custom Software
« Reply #2436 on: July 19, 2024, 08:59:39 pm »
Seems like it would be easy enough to work the math and build up a coil.  Measure it with the cheap VNA and RLC meter.  I may spend a few minutes tonight and see if they will award me some of that warp drive grant money for my efforts.   :-DD

1.  Joe, it looks like you are one changing your tune - since you said you had no use for the patent.
However, it took the patience of other people here - to break through that barrier. 

It's the entertainment value.

Well, it's nice that the scientific method keeps giving me opportunities to rethink your sincerity - and your distractions.
 
 

Offline joeqsmithTopic starter

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Re: NanoVNA Custom Software
« Reply #2437 on: July 19, 2024, 09:07:28 pm »
When it comes to scammers and free energy warp drives, you can pretty much always bank on my sincerity. 

I have requested Dave to move the posts related your topic into:   
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/solving-teslas-patent-512-340-for-free-energy-warp-drives-and-religious-uses

I will use that location for any experiments I run relating to it.


Offline joabel1971

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Re: NanoVNA Custom Software
« Reply #2438 on: July 19, 2024, 09:13:45 pm »
When it comes to scammers and free energy warp drives, you can pretty much always bank on my sincerity. 

I have requested Dave to move the posts related your topic into:   
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/solving-teslas-patent-512-340-for-free-energy-warp-drives-and-religious-uses

I will use that location for any experiments I run relating to it.

Again, that is slander.   At no point did I ever say the words "Free Energy or Religious Uses".   You've tried to attach me to your own wording.       

But, I'll certainly let Applied Physics know that you aren't sincere about requests for such a grant.   
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: NanoVNA Custom Software
« Reply #2439 on: July 20, 2024, 01:43:52 am »
joable1971, your welcome in his thread has run out, do not post in this thread again. Post in here again and your posts will be deleted, we will not tolerate oyu polluting this 100 page software support thread for own amusement.
Use this instead of polluting here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/rf-microwave/re-nanovna-custom-software/

EDIT: 2 additional posts now deleted. Keep it up and you get banned.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2024, 03:26:56 am by EEVblog »
 
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Offline joabel1971

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Re: NanoVNA Custom Software
« Reply #2440 on: July 20, 2024, 04:32:24 am »
Best to get a NanoVNA to help with your questions, they aren't expensive :-+

Must remember the NanoVNA just makes measurements and can't interpret if the measurements are from a coil, resistor, or capacitor. The user decides what the VNA displays which can be equivalent parameters for R, L and C, and then user can interpret how these represent the actual DUT.

Effective Coaxial Cable length can be measured by using reflectometry or TDR, the NanoVNA supports this measurement as well.

Best,

Thanks, I own 2 of them.   
 

Offline joeqsmithTopic starter

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Re: NanoVNA Custom Software
« Reply #2441 on: July 22, 2024, 05:36:51 pm »
This was my last update to the software.  The original post was buried within the rantings of a madman and with no way to clean things up, I decided to repost get a clean start.   Also, the last experiment that I had used the software for was to construct a working EPR spectrometer, also linked below.   


Solver64 5.04 is now live.  This version adds support for my EPR spectrometer.  I'm sure that is not useful, but it also enables the magnification feature for the Smith chart in the main menu.   Two additional gains were added.   This feature was added in an  attempt to repeat member pdenisowski cable impedance measurements.  Because the Smith chart is an overlay,  the scaling is still fixed.  It does however make moving the cursors easier if you are trying to zoom into the noise like I was.   

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/rf-microwave/vna-for-cable-characterization/msg5565895/#msg5565895


Offline joeqsmithTopic starter

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Re: NanoVNA Custom Software
« Reply #2442 on: August 05, 2024, 03:33:35 pm »
Solver64 5.05, 07/31/2024
Add TDR attributes to Plot events
Trigger plot event if TDR memory has changed
Change from LIFO to running average and open the limits to 1000

Offline Melt-O-Tronic

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Re: NanoVNA Custom Software
« Reply #2443 on: August 22, 2024, 01:28:23 am »
Is it just me or is the Dropbox folder empty?
 

Offline joeqsmithTopic starter

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Re: NanoVNA Custom Software
« Reply #2444 on: August 22, 2024, 01:54:29 am »
Is it just me or is the Dropbox folder empty?

Thanks for letting me know.  It's not you as I just tried it.   Doing a search:

Quote
Dropbox doesn't, and can't, delete files on its own. If files are being deleted, either you or some other process on your computer is doing it. The only time Dropbox can delete your data is if your account is left idle for more than a year, at which point your entire account would be deleted.

The PC that I use for the release has not been turned on since the last update.   Odd the root directory is still there.   I'll check into it this weekend. 

Offline Melt-O-Tronic

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Re: NanoVNA Custom Software
« Reply #2445 on: August 22, 2024, 01:56:33 am »
Good to know I'm not crazy.  Well, I may still be crazy, but at least this doesn't prove it.   ;D

Thanks!
 

Offline joeqsmithTopic starter

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Re: NanoVNA Custom Software
« Reply #2446 on: August 22, 2024, 01:58:59 am »
Quote
I know there’s a lot of frustration about how ‘Dropbox deleted all my files’. I accept it’s hard to lose files, especially if they’re vital for your business, precious family or baby pictures, or even your favorite cryptocurrency digital wallet.
 
We’ve received emails, calls, and forum threads stating the same as the title. Users are insistent that we did the deletions. However, as other Dropboxers have posted here have said, and while it makes me seem robotic to repeat the same answer, this is the truth:
 
Dropbox does not delete your files, without any user interaction on them.
 
The latter part of that sentence is paramount. If you, or someone else with access to those files, deletes them, then Dropbox does what it’s supposed to do, and syncs the deletion to all devices and users.

Maybe the account was hacked. 

***
A quick check, looks like the defaults allowed people to edit rather than view.  I can see where one person then decided to wipe it.  Sadly, I didn't spend much time reading their documents and just assumed their default settings would be secure.   :-DD  The  linked video mentions the defaults.  I'm surprised it survived almost a year before someone blew it away.   

https://youtu.be/lq36LR6RO4g?t=4

***
I have updated the link in my signature.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2024, 02:27:38 pm by joeqsmith »
 

Offline joeqsmithTopic starter

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Re: NanoVNA Custom Software
« Reply #2447 on: September 02, 2024, 12:26:43 am »
Latest release is now available with minor changes.

5.06, 09/01/2024
Add horizontal autoscale disable to main XY  graph
Change TDR integral from trapezoidal to Simpson's
« Last Edit: September 02, 2024, 12:39:47 am by joeqsmith »
 
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Offline joeqsmithTopic starter

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Re: NanoVNA Custom Software
« Reply #2448 on: September 26, 2024, 04:48:27 pm »
There was some recent discussion about using the T-check to validate the VNA's calibration. 
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/rf-microwave/vna-for-cable-characterization/msg5642907/#msg5642907

I had tried making a few standards.  Even after purchasing the V2Plus4 and using a production transfer relay rather than my homemade ones, the results were never very good. 
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/rf-microwave/nanovna-custom-software/msg2638257/#msg2638257

I have started to try and improve my VNA measurements and ended up buying a few ecals and loaning out some standards.  After some repairs,  the mechanical standards were transferred to the ecals. 
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/agilent-pna-e835xa-with-85092-ecal-problems/msg5592015/#msg5592015

A local member had helped me the last time I had tried to derive the coefficients for some unknown mechanical standards. 
https://www.mariohellmich.de/projects/sma-cal-kit/sma-cal-kit.html
Recently I spent some time playing with METAS to try and derive them.   
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/rf-microwave/calculating-correction-data-for-an-unknown-vna-calibration-kit/

Measuring one of the T-checks built up on FR4 behaved much better with the calibrated Agilent than it ever did using the ideal models with the low cost VNA, I want a better standard.  Rather than using anything homemade,  the plan is to use a coaxial Tee and load to form the T-Check.   

I plan to characterize the low cost standards and measure the new T-Check with the Agilent and METAS.  Once I have all that data,  calibrate the LiteVNA 64 and measure the T-Check to see if there is any improvement.  I also want to see the difference between using the ideal model, which I have always used, and my attempt to characterize the same standards.

***
My VNA is setup for 3.5mm and I don't plan to mix it with low grade components.  I have been using some sacrificial adapters when this has come up.   Pasternak offers some adapters:
https://www.pasternack.com/standard-polarity-3.5mm-to-sma-standard-polarity-adapters-category.aspx   

For these measurements, I plan to used two adapters in series.   The E-Cal will be used to characterize a brand new set.  After, they too become sacrificial.   

https://rfi-drawings.s3-us-west-1.amazonaws.com/adapters/rf35m-35f-00000-draw.pdf
https://www.minicircuits.com/pdfs/35F-35M50+.pdf
https://www.fairviewmicrowave.com/content/dam/infinite-electronics/product-assets/fairview-microwave/product-datasheets/SM7565.pdf
« Last Edit: September 28, 2024, 12:22:49 am by joeqsmith »
 
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Offline joeqsmithTopic starter

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Re: NanoVNA Custom Software
« Reply #2449 on: September 29, 2024, 03:12:07 pm »
A new release of Solver64 is now available that forces the use of the period for the decimal point when working with Touchstone files.   This apparently has been a problem for a long time but was recently brought to my attention.  See the following for details:
 
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/rf-microwave/vna-for-cable-characterization/msg5657425/#msg5657425


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