Author Topic: The 3.7 m dish antenna of Voyager  (Read 1955 times)

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Offline prabhatkarpe4Topic starter

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The 3.7 m dish antenna of Voyager
« on: September 08, 2024, 12:40:28 pm »
I need to know how Voyager-I was able to communicate with the base station on earth using the 3.7m dish antenna? Usually any dish antenna needs to be pointed towards the receiver and Voyager must be in random direction.

 

Offline Andy Chee

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Re: The 3.7 m dish antenna of Voyager
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2024, 01:11:38 pm »
As of today, Voyager still has just enough electricity for dish pointing, so not random direction.

But power is definitely low, and is expected to run out after 2025.
 

Offline BrokenYugo

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Re: The 3.7 m dish antenna of Voyager
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2024, 02:24:29 pm »
IIRC they use two big dishes, one right on target, one slightly off, because both receive about the same noise the data can be picked out by looking at the difference between the two signals. Bitrate is also kept very low, google seems to indicate they run no more than 160bps.
 

Online PA0PBZ

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Re: The 3.7 m dish antenna of Voyager
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2024, 03:41:03 pm »
https://eyes.nasa.gov/dsn/dsn.html

At the moment 40 bits/second, signal strength -160 dBm

This may interest you too:
« Last Edit: September 08, 2024, 03:43:16 pm by PA0PBZ »
Keyboard error: Press F1 to continue.
 
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Offline joeqsmith

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Re: The 3.7 m dish antenna of Voyager
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2024, 05:00:20 pm »
This could be total BS.  As we age, these memories become faint.   

I thought maybe in the 80s that Texas Instruments collaborated with Toshiba (or some other Japanese company) to develop new receivers based on quantum well technology to get the sensitivity they needed to push the spacecraft out further.   

Again, could be a total memory failure on my part.   It seems that I had read about it in EDN or some other trade magazine.   

Offline KE5FX

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Re: The 3.7 m dish antenna of Voyager
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2024, 06:54:58 pm »
Thinking of ruby masers, maybe?
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: The 3.7 m dish antenna of Voyager
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2024, 07:50:12 pm »
I don't think so.  At the time it seems there was a lot being published about how the quantum well transistor was going to change the world.  Giving us better CCD imaging, higher density storage, LASER density that we could tune the frequency, and super sensitive transistors that we could buy from Radio Shack within 10 years....   Seems they talked about the entire library of congress fitting into a walnut sized storage device.   They wanted to push the probes out and seemed they were at the limit of what the current technology could offer.   I think this was the first paper I had read where the technology had been developed for actual use.   

Again, based on total memory and the shriveled up brain doesn't function like it used to.

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: The 3.7 m dish antenna of Voyager
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2024, 11:15:22 pm »
Searching the internet, I came up with nothing. 

Before the internet and Google, I would save interesting articles.   This binder is about 2" thick of nothing but clippings, newest to oldest.  Top article is dated 1991 dating back to the early 80s.   

I found several articles on quantum well transistors.  Including the one talking about storing the entire library of congress.   The last image 6 talks about GE making the quantum sensors for the NASA  Voyager.    So not TI, not the receivers, no involvement with Toshiba.  But hey, one sentence from an article I read several decades ago, a few cylinders are still firing. 

Offline KE5FX

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Re: The 3.7 m dish antenna of Voyager
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2024, 12:27:58 am »
That is fascinating. Tunnel diodes had a real cult following for a while, composed of true believers who swore they would dominate the market one day.  The 'quantum well transistor' sounds like something the tunnel-diode cult might have pivoted to fixate upon before dying out altogether (or moving on to memristors, I guess.)
 

Offline Andy Chee

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Re: The 3.7 m dish antenna of Voyager
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2024, 03:52:10 am »
I thought maybe in the 80s that Texas Instruments collaborated with Toshiba (or some other Japanese company) to develop new receivers based on quantum well technology to get the sensitivity they needed to push the spacecraft out further.   
Voyager was launched in '77, so are you talking about the ground station receivers?

 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: The 3.7 m dish antenna of Voyager
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2024, 09:41:52 pm »
I thought maybe in the 80s that Texas Instruments collaborated with Toshiba (or some other Japanese company) to develop new receivers based on quantum well technology to get the sensitivity they needed to push the spacecraft out further.   
Voyager was launched in '77, so are you talking about the ground station receivers?
:-DD

Online coppercone2

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Re: The 3.7 m dish antenna of Voyager
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2024, 02:20:23 am »
I thought they used high Q maser preselectors essentially so they can get more gain

It says most ruby masers have a narrow bandwidth,usually under 50MHz when they operate in the multi GHz band. One maser ( RWM) says it has a bandwidth of 300MHz, but it does operate in the Ku band. They appear to give around 20-50 dB gain


« Last Edit: September 15, 2024, 02:29:13 am by coppercone2 »
 

Online coppercone2

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Re: The 3.7 m dish antenna of Voyager
« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2024, 02:35:00 am »
It looks like basically anything needed to replace that maser has a priority of being low noise, with a second priority of being a preselector and to have low IMD. I am guessing that 'in band' the voyager itself is still the most powerful signal by miles. I wonder how low a noise temperature you would need before the problem becomes discriminating the signal from in-band interference..  it seems like its down to luck of what is infront of voyager.

If I am understanding it, the DSN relay has a 80 meter antenna reflector (diameter) that it uses to communicate with voyager at a low microwave frequency.


you could probobly send out more relays to boost the signal behind voyager if you don't wait too long............

The Voyager mission plans were for the two spacecraft to encounter Saturn
in November 1980 and in August 1981, and for Voyager 2 to encounter Uranus
in January 1986 and Neptune in August 1989. The distances from Earth would
be 10 A.U. at Saturn, 19 A.U. at Uranus, and 30 A.U. at Neptune. The
115,200 bps data rate at a 5 A.U. from Jupiter translates into data rates of about
28,800 bps from Saturn, 8000 bps from Uranus, and 3200 bps from Neptune
due to the square-of-the-distance penalty. Many enhancements were needed and
implemented to enable the data rates of 44,800 bps from Saturn, 29,900 bps
from Uranus, and 21,600 bps from Neptune that were achieved. One of the
enhancements was a reduction in the system operating noise temperature of the
DSN 64-m, and later 70-m, antennas. The Block II X-band masers were
developed between 1976 and 1980 to contribute to this noise reduction.

In 1980 D. L. Trowbridge reported, “Four X-band traveling-wave maser
(TWM) systems with effective input noise temperatures of 3.5 K and
bandwidths varying from 65 to 108 MHz have been supplied to the Deep Space
Network [23]. These TWMs are used on the 64-m antennas at Deep Space
Stations 14, 43, and 63 at 8420 MHz to meet the requirements of the Voyager
Saturn encounter. The TWMs use shortened and cooled signal input waveguide
to reduce noise and are equipped with superconducting magnets and solid state
pump sources to provide the required stability performance.”

https://descanso.jpl.nasa.gov/monograph/series10/03_Reid_chapt3.pdf



I think that the next step would be to build a orbital deep space antenna satellite, send it out near jupiter, and then you can track voyager for way longer at higher bitrate. I don't know if we actually have deep space relays yet, the deep space network is terrestrial despite its name :(

https://descanso.jpl.nasa.gov/monograph/series4/Mono4_Ch10.pdf

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square_Kilometre_Array


So I guess if you think about it, voyager with its proximity to us, is still pretty damn strong, compared to distant stars (light years), as weak as its little transmitter is, on a cosmic scale it has not gotten out of bed yet
« Last Edit: September 15, 2024, 02:53:20 am by coppercone2 »
 

Offline Andy Chee

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Re: The 3.7 m dish antenna of Voyager
« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2024, 03:16:20 am »
you could probobly send out more relays to boost the signal behind voyager if you don't wait too long............
It's already too late.  Voyager is due to run out of power in the next few years.  It would take that long just for a relay station to arrive in position, let alone design a relay station and organise a suitable launch window.

That said, several Mars orbiters have the capability of acting as a relay for the surface rovers.  And the surface rovers also have the capability to communicate directly with earth.
 

Online coppercone2

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Re: The 3.7 m dish antenna of Voyager
« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2024, 03:24:47 am »
you could probobly send out more relays to boost the signal behind voyager if you don't wait too long............
It's already too late.  Voyager is due to run out of power in the next few years.  It would take that long just for a relay station to arrive in position, let alone design a relay station and organise a suitable launch window.

That said, several Mars orbiters have the capability of acting as a relay for the surface rovers.  And the surface rovers also have the capability to communicate directly with earth.

thats just faith in life time models :p
 

Offline Andy Chee

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Re: The 3.7 m dish antenna of Voyager
« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2024, 04:16:39 am »
you could probobly send out more relays to boost the signal behind voyager if you don't wait too long............
It's already too late.  Voyager is due to run out of power in the next few years.  It would take that long just for a relay station to arrive in position, let alone design a relay station and organise a suitable launch window.

That said, several Mars orbiters have the capability of acting as a relay for the surface rovers.  And the surface rovers also have the capability to communicate directly with earth.

thats just faith in life time models :p
What would make better sense is to launch a probe to Uranus, where it can do scientific study of the Uranian system, AND act as a potential relay for deep space probes.
 

Online coppercone2

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Re: The 3.7 m dish antenna of Voyager
« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2024, 04:21:21 am »
its annoying that you need to piggy back things to con politicians rather then missions specific projects. every space project is like a over loaded pack horse

i wonder if you could have sold a VCR with a bottle opener on it in the 80's

" im gonna change the tape "

they should have put a bottle of wine on voyager there would already be a recovery mission planned for 2035
« Last Edit: September 15, 2024, 04:25:37 am by coppercone2 »
 
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Offline Andy Chee

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Re: The 3.7 m dish antenna of Voyager
« Reply #17 on: September 15, 2024, 06:34:06 am »
they should have put a bottle of wine on voyager there would already be a recovery mission planned for 2035
well they did include a phonograph stylus for aliens to playback the golden record, does that count?
 

Offline JimboJack

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Re: The 3.7 m dish antenna of Voyager
« Reply #18 on: September 15, 2024, 10:20:02 pm »
electrical power is split between the anything left of instruments of and keep the pointy directional fuel warm from freezeing up and that is using more and more
A documentary on the Voyager team, is like the movie office space, they keep moving further and further away, from HQ, there operational place, was next to a fast food chain, down town some were looked like a motel, the lead in charge is the grad that started on the project, everyone else has since long gone.

 

Online coppercone2

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Re: The 3.7 m dish antenna of Voyager
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2024, 02:10:01 am »
i wonder if they took away some handy old HP power supply with red knobs too because its not regulation
 

Offline tatel

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Re: The 3.7 m dish antenna of Voyager
« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2024, 05:49:54 am »
Don't know if what is said on this YT video is accurate but here's the link. It speaks about -among other things- communications. It seems that antenna is still oriented towards the Earth

 

Online radiolistener

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Re: The 3.7 m dish antenna of Voyager
« Reply #21 on: September 18, 2024, 08:00:35 am »
It is possible because Earth antenna is very large and has high gain due to high directivity.

Some years ago I done some calc about it and if I remember correctly, the free space signal attenuation is about 220 dB.
 


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