Author Topic: The new tinySA "Ultra+"  (Read 3407 times)

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Offline mehdiTopic starter

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The new tinySA "Ultra+"
« on: January 17, 2025, 09:20:17 am »
I got this yesterday. Apparently it's the successor to "Ultra"
Comes in 2 variants: ZS406 and ZS407. The former goes up to 5.3GHZ (as the Ultra) and the latter goes to 7.3GHZ.
Here's the official comparison page: https://tinysa.org/wiki/pmwiki.php?n=TinySA4.Comparison
The 4 main differences are:
1. Bigger battery (5000mAh)
2. Normal mode up to 900 vs 800MHZ
3. On the ZS407 version: Ultra mode up to 7.3 vs 5.3GHZ
4. Better phase noise

I haven't had time to test it properly (especially on the phase noise improvements)
Physically, the device is identical to "Ultra" (30g heavier, due to the bigger battery) and uses the same firmware as Ultra.
Price for the 5.3GHZ version (ZS406) is the same as Ultra.
HW version is "V0.5.4" while my Ultra is "V0.4.5.1"

Let me know if you need specific comparisons between the two (I have the regular Ultra and also the Ultra+ ZS407)
 
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Offline mehdiTopic starter

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Re: The new tinySA "Ultra+"
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2025, 09:34:26 am »
Early teardown pictures: I can only see minor changes on the PCB without opening the RF shields (there are some components removed/added)
Obviously the battery is the biggest visible change.
Pictured: tinySA Ultra, and tinySA Ultra+ ZS407
 

Offline mehdiTopic starter

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Re: The new tinySA "Ultra+"
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2025, 04:39:36 pm »
Still testing and comparing the Ultra+ to Ultra.
One difference I missed, is the display: the LCD on Ultra+ is new (new connector, new part number, and even different colors! Colors are warmer on Ultra+. Also, a dot matrix is visible. Not sure what it is: touchscreen grid?)
 

Offline W4PJB

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Re: The new tinySA "Ultra+"
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2025, 12:38:08 am »
I love mine. It's obviously somewhat limited compared to a bench instrument, but it's certainly easier to carry than an 8566 :D I also like the idea of having a $139 S/A to plug "questionable" loads into, before I plug it into something MUCH more expensive and difficult to repair.

One thing I do wish for is the menu to be full-screen (like the frequency entry keypad), and not a tiny little bar on the side. It would be SO much easier to operate if the menu items were closer to thumb-sized, not to mention easier to read. I don't like using the included guitar pick or scrolling up/down the menu with the 3 way switch on the top. But those are minor gripes. Considering what it can do, it's an amazing instrument.
 
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Offline mehdiTopic starter

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Re: The new tinySA "Ultra+"
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2025, 09:51:07 am »
Same here. It even has the potential to sell upgraded versions and features (e.g. I'd buy one with a bigger display)
At this price point (and even higher), there's no competition.
In my lab, I always use either a SignalHound or a benchtop SA, but when travelling, I usually take the tinySA.
 
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Offline silly sausage

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Re: The new tinySA "Ultra+"
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2025, 10:50:01 pm »
What size screen are they,is is like the nanovna ie 2.8" and 4 inch?.
 

Offline wasedadoc

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Re: The new tinySA "Ultra+"
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2025, 11:01:50 pm »
What size screen are they,is is like the nanovna ie 2.8" and 4 inch?.
Yes.  Why don't you read more at https://tinysa.org/wiki/pmwiki.php?n=Main.HomePage ?
 

Online LM21

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Re: The new tinySA "Ultra+"
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2025, 11:06:35 pm »
How close to a carrier you can see? It would be nice to see AM or FM modulation side bands of a 1kHz tone. Besides, schools could use these spectrum analyser in teaching radio basics.
 

Online unicornio

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Re: The new tinySA "Ultra+"
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2025, 02:16:58 am »
really tinysa and nanovna are the gamechangers of pedagogy and the democratization of radio technology!...
I am very impressed by the great precision and usefulness of both toys...
- the worst time of my life was when the measuring instruments run with Windows, and they had a floppy drive -
electronic and microwave radio engineer for 40 years, radioamateur, and now work in #solarenergy, #water #depuration with #ozone #UV
 

Offline Solder_Junkie

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Re: The new tinySA "Ultra+"
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2025, 11:24:20 am »
How close to a carrier you can see? It would be nice to see AM or FM modulation side bands of a 1kHz tone. Besides, schools could use these spectrum analyser in teaching radio basics.
The resolution bandwidth and video bandwidth are sufficiently narrow that you can conduct 2 tone tests on SSB transmitters with one, although the span needs to be quite narrow as the sweep speed becomes very slow at narrow bandwidths (the same with an ordinary SA).

For the money they are an incredible instrument. The only downside is the user interface, but if you want to spend upwards of 10 times the price for a "professional" hand held instrument, go ahead  :-DD

SJ
 

Offline mehdiTopic starter

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Re: The new tinySA "Ultra+"
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2025, 12:02:12 pm »
How close to a carrier you can see? It would be nice to see AM or FM modulation side bands of a 1kHz tone. Besides, schools could use these spectrum analyser in teaching radio basics.
Yes
2487225-0
« Last Edit: January 22, 2025, 12:19:13 pm by mehdi »
 
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Offline mehdiTopic starter

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Re: The new tinySA "Ultra+"
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2025, 12:18:37 pm »
Just for comparison, same signal, same setup, on a professional spectrum analzyer (>20x the cost)
 
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Offline tchicago

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Re: The new tinySA "Ultra+"
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2025, 09:43:03 pm »
Just for comparison, same signal, same setup, on a professional spectrum analzyer (>20x the cost)

The noise floor is 10dB better. Which is not that much a big deal at this dynamic range. But this is at 1GHz frequency.

Could you please repeat the same comparison test around 5GHz?
 
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Offline mehdiTopic starter

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Re: The new tinySA "Ultra+"
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2025, 10:12:43 pm »
Just for comparison, same signal, same setup, on a professional spectrum analzyer (>20x the cost)

The noise floor is 10dB better. Which is not that much a big deal at this dynamic range. But this is at 1GHz frequency.

Could you please repeat the same comparison test around 5GHz?

Here's 2 screenshots, one from tinySA Ultra+, and one from Signal Hound BB60D.
Settings:
Center freq: 5GHZ
Span: 10KHZ
RBW: 200HZ (minimum for tinySA Ultra)

RF Signal generator: Signal Hound VSG60A
Signal: AM modulated (1KHZ), -20dBm

Sweep time for BB60D: 45ms
Sweep time for tinySA Ultra: 20 seconds


« Last Edit: January 22, 2025, 10:14:52 pm by mehdi »
 
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Offline aimc

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Re: The new tinySA "Ultra+"
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2025, 03:13:46 pm »
Mehdi, could you please show us the noise floor from 0-12GHz (open input) on the new Ultra+? I am just wondering because on my older Ultra it goes up to only -40dBm. I understand that the second half of the spectrum after 6GHz is just using harmonic mixing. May not be relevant in most application cases but I am also interested to see how bumpy the noise floor generally is...

Thanks
Lutz
 

Offline mehdiTopic starter

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Re: The new tinySA "Ultra+"
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2025, 07:40:21 pm »
Mehdi, could you please show us the noise floor from 0-12GHz (open input) on the new Ultra+? I am just wondering because on my older Ultra it goes up to only -40dBm. I understand that the second half of the spectrum after 6GHz is just using harmonic mixing. May not be relevant in most application cases but I am also interested to see how bumpy the noise floor generally is...

Thanks
Lutz

Sure. Here is a comparison between the original Ultra and the Ultra+ ZS-407.
It's better to connect the input to a 50 ohm load, rather than keeping it open (which would pick up strong signals)
Here's the settings I used on both Ultra and Ultra+ :
RBW: 100KHZ (the lower the RBW, the better the noise floor, but also sweep would be very slow)
Attenuation: 0
LNA (pre-amp) : ON
Span: 100KHZ - 12GHZ

Scan time with the above settings was almost 100 seconds.
Keep in mind that some settings (like RBW and LNA) impact the noise floor.

Let me know if you'd like to see more tests/comparisons.
 

Offline rteodor

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Re: The new tinySA "Ultra+"
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2025, 08:59:29 pm »
If your sig gen can hold a stable signal let's say at 500MHz and 2GHz and see what is the drift of the marker (in frequency and amplitude) from the cold start to lets say 30 or 60 minutes of running.
It would be nice to see the effect of outdoor winter temperature too if its not too much to ask.
 

Offline mehdiTopic starter

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Re: The new tinySA "Ultra+"
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2025, 10:50:18 pm »
If your sig gen can hold a stable signal let's say at 500MHz and 2GHz and see what is the drift of the marker (in frequency and amplitude) from the cold start to lets say 30 or 60 minutes of running.
It would be nice to see the effect of outdoor winter temperature too if its not too much to ask.

I need to find some time to do this, but for now did one: a 30-minute test from cold start in room temperature (22C).
Used Signal Hound VSG60A signal generator using an external ultra low phase noise OCXO as reference.
Signal: CW 2GHZ -20dBm
tinySA settings: RBW 200Hz, span 10Khz, Center freq: 2GHZ
Used a tracking marker set to search for peak.

Here is the readings:

TimeMarker frequency Amplitude
Cold start1.999999GHZ-22.1dBm
5 Minutes1.999999GHZ-22.3dBm
10 Minutes1.999999GHZ-22.3dBm
15 Minutes1.999999GHZ-22.3dBm
20 Minutes1.999999GHZ-23.2dBm
25 Minutes1.999999GHZ-23.1dBm
30 Minutes1.999999GHZ-23.6dBm

At the end, I also measured the output of the signal generator, using a power meter, to compare against the last reading from tinySA:
1.9999998MHZ , -21.5dBm
 
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Offline rteodor

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Re: The new tinySA "Ultra+"
« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2025, 04:52:45 am »
I was thinking more of taking max hold captures at the beginning and at the end to make it more simple but thanks for extra measurements. Its nice to know that is so stable in frequency and not bad either in amplitude.
 

Offline markus_jlrb

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Re: The new tinySA "Ultra+"
« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2025, 11:49:32 am »
HI TinySA experts,

I'm observed an issue comparing the Ultra+ (ZS-407, V0.5.4) vers the old ULTRA (HW V0.4.5.1.1).
I purchased two devices of both HW Versions, so my tests were run on four devices.

The ULTRA+ device shows independent of used FW Ver. -193- and -196- and independent of remote
control or direct screen operation the attached spectrum (center 500MHz, span 10kHz, RBW 1kHz)


The Input is terminated with 50Ohm.

Any ideas what is the reason for the spectral shoulder located to the center frequency?
 

Thanks in advance

Markus





 

Offline Solder_Junkie

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Re: The new tinySA "Ultra+"
« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2025, 12:01:49 pm »
Marcus, are you aware that a dedicated TinySA group exists? There are a lot of active users including the designer.

https://groups.io/g/tinysa

SJ
 

Offline markus_jlrb

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Re: The new tinySA "Ultra+"
« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2025, 12:25:25 pm »
@SJ,

thanks to point me to the groups.io link.

BTW I now try the old FW Ver. -175- and the
spectrum is now flat as expected.
Could by a FW issue and not a HW one as
I thought.
Was not able to find any issue comments in
github for the -196- FW version.

To complete my observation I attached the
-175- FW spectra for the ULTRA+ that now
looks ok.

Sorry for raising this issue at these thread.
 
I will direct my questions as recommended
by you in the groups.io forum.

Markus
 


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