Author Topic: VNA recommendation  (Read 10056 times)

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Offline rfclown

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Re: VNA recommendation
« Reply #25 on: February 01, 2022, 02:15:24 pm »
Dr. Joel, I had never seen the HP8714ES mentioned in this thread. I'm most familiar with the HP8753 (used A-E). What's different with the 8714?
 

Online tautech

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Re: VNA recommendation
« Reply #26 on: February 01, 2022, 07:20:12 pm »
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Offline xmo

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Re: VNA recommendation
« Reply #27 on: February 01, 2022, 10:57:12 pm »
Here is an Agilent network analyzer selection guide that gives some overview of the different models.
 

Offline Joel_Dunsmore

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Re: VNA recommendation
« Reply #28 on: February 02, 2022, 02:21:59 am »
Dr. Joel, I had never seen the HP8714ES mentioned in this thread. I'm most familiar with the HP8753 (used A-E). What's different with the 8714?
The 8711 was a version of very low cost VNAs (scalar) with frequency up to 1.3 GHz, the 8712 was a vector version.  Later we came out with an 8713/8714 which were 3 GHz versions.  These were designed for cable TV manufacturing applications. And the 3 GHz were used (in the hundreds and thousands) for tuning filters for cell phones ( before SAW filter technology was common, all the cellphones used hand-tuned filters which required thousands of filter-tuners; SAW filter technology turned that job into the same class as buggy-whip wrappers).  The were the first VNAs over 1 GHz to use only PCB technology, which is  how the cost was kept down. 
 

Offline ssturges

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Re: VNA recommendation
« Reply #29 on: February 02, 2022, 05:08:21 am »
LIBREVNA 100KHZ - 6 GHZ USB based full 2 port VNA

Available on Amazon.  A bit cheaper on Aliexpress

I just got one but I have not unboxed it yet.  A bit of info out there on it. 
 

Online Berni

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Re: VNA recommendation
« Reply #30 on: February 02, 2022, 06:09:42 am »
LIBREVNA 100KHZ - 6 GHZ USB based full 2 port VNA

Available on Amazon.  A bit cheaper on Aliexpress

I just got one but I have not unboxed it yet.  A bit of info out there on it.

This thing looks pretty nice. Wouldn't mind hearing how good this actually is.
 
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Offline joeqsmith

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Re: VNA recommendation
« Reply #31 on: February 02, 2022, 01:14:18 pm »
The LibreVNA may offer a few benefits, including potentially lower noise and wider dynamic range but

The software interface is not documented and as far as I know, requires you to interface with their software   
100kHz lower range
Announcement of new hardware coupled with the higher price tag
Concerns with hardware design (early posts of temperature problems)

I've not been following it for some time now and most of my concerns may have been addressed.  I would also be interested in seeing a review.

Offline xmo

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Re: VNA recommendation
« Reply #32 on: February 02, 2022, 04:15:10 pm »
A major challenge of network analyzers for many of us is - they're complicated.  Even less expensive devices have abilities that may not be clear.  Most hobbyists and even some professional engineers have no one to mentor us on the capabilities of and use of complex instruments.  Of course, there are many resources available on-line today - so many that it can be overwhelming.

One good introduction is from the HP-A-K back to basics series.  They have presented these at various seminars around the country through the years, so many versions can be found on-line.

Most versions contain only the presentation slides but I like the 2005 version because it has the presenter's notes.

 
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Offline cdev

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Re: VNA recommendation
« Reply #33 on: February 02, 2022, 08:26:53 pm »
With an instrument like a VNA the possibilities for doing new things, and really taking advantage of it are endless.
And then making videos and making money from them.
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline G0HZU

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Re: VNA recommendation
« Reply #34 on: February 02, 2022, 09:03:17 pm »
My very first VNA was the 3GHz HP 8714B. I bought this many years ago as an unloved ex-rental and it came with a lot of software and hardware options including an external switching test set and remote detector probes. I still have it here somewhere but I bought a nicer VNA about 6 years ago and I just keep the 8714B as a spare.

It is only a TR VNA but I would recommend this model even today if the price is right. The one I have has the high power option and the wide range attenuator and the source power goes up to about +20dBm. For measuring antennas and feedlines and RF filters it should perform very well. I'm not sure what they are worth these days but the later 8714ES has a built in test set and this makes it a lot more desirable.

One of the main limitations with the HP 8714B TR VNA was the relatively poor port 2 match up towards the top end of the 3GHz range. I often used an attenuator here to improve things. If you can negotiate the price right down then maybe consider the cheaper HP 8714B version. It is only a TR VNA but it might be able to do all that you want from a VNA.





« Last Edit: February 02, 2022, 09:06:59 pm by G0HZU »
 

Offline cdev

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Re: VNA recommendation
« Reply #35 on: February 02, 2022, 10:14:10 pm »
https://www.tindie.com/products/hcxqsgroup/4-nanovna-v2-plus4/

I have this unit and it works well.  I have no way to compare it to a pro unit.

I have the previous model the nanovna2.2  with the smaller screen. I have a 3d printed case for it. Its been a great tool to have. I really love it.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2022, 10:19:25 pm by cdev »
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Online Berni

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Re: VNA recommendation
« Reply #36 on: February 03, 2022, 06:35:36 am »
The thing with these tiny cheap VNAs is that it makes it easy to bring VNA to the work rather than bringing the work to the VNA (since nobody wants to lug around that giant heavy boatanchor of a VNA). So for example you can use one to quickly measure an installed antenna on site including all the feed cabling going to it.

So this NanoVNA is sort of like a handheld DMM. It might not have the performance of its big heavy bench counterpart, but it has enough performance to get the job done while being small enough to fit in a pocket. I have multiple bench DMMs and yet my handheld DMMs still see plenty of use for when its more convenient and the extra performance is not required.

It's a similar story for the small portable oscilloscopes (skip the cheap tiny toys tho). They are always worse than a real scope, often have all touchscreen controls etc... but at the same time you can pull it out of a bag anywhere, turn it on and start using it.
 
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Offline Nikos A.Topic starter

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Re: VNA recommendation
« Reply #37 on: February 03, 2022, 01:43:27 pm »
I found this VNA.
https://www.megiq.com/products/vna-0440

Also for almost the same price (3000€) I found this from Siglent
https://www.siglent.eu/product/1137246/siglent-sva1032x-3-2ghz-spectrum-vector-network-analyzer

What is your opinion? Is this value for money?
« Last Edit: February 03, 2022, 03:39:34 pm by Nikos A. »
 

Offline xmo

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Re: VNA recommendation
« Reply #38 on: February 03, 2022, 03:35:10 pm »
The frequency range of the megiq is from 400 to 4000 MHz so if you never envision needing frequency coverage below 400 MHz and the other specs meet your requirements, it might be a good choice.

Berni is exactly right: "So this NanoVNA is sort of like a handheld DMM. It might not have the performance of its big heavy bench counterpart, but it has enough performance to get the job done while being small enough to fit in a pocket. I have multiple bench DMMs and yet my handheld DMMs still see plenty of use for when its more convenient and the extra performance is not required."
 

Offline xmo

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Re: VNA recommendation
« Reply #39 on: February 03, 2022, 03:41:49 pm »
Also note that the price of that megiq equates to well over 3000 USD - considerably beyond your stated $1000 budget.

I recently bought a R&S ZVB-8 with time domain for less than $4000 so there is no way I would consider that megiq a bargain.
 

Offline xmo

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Re: VNA recommendation
« Reply #40 on: February 03, 2022, 08:04:38 pm »
Regarding the Siglent unit, tautech already recommended that for your consideration.

It appears that you have increased your budget.  I strongly recommend that you give serious consideration to your current applications, any possible future uses, and how all that interacts with analyzer specifications.  Then make yourself a comparison matrix that lists your important requirements and desires vs capabilities of units under consideration.  Download the datasheets, brochures, and operating manuals for every unit under consideration and study them thoroughly.

Simple bandpass applications may be well served by most choices, but if you need serious dynamic range for tuning filters, low cost units may come up way short.  If you need power sweep - for example - for testing amplifier compression, some analyzers won't do it at all, others might have 15 dB range, still others 50 dB or more.

You want to avoid buyer's remorse.  Look at the attached screen shot of a VNA tuning a duplex filter.  The rejection notch is 100 dB deep and the analyzer has dynamic range to spare - there isn't even any noise on the trace at the notch minimum. 
 

Online tautech

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Re: VNA recommendation
« Reply #41 on: February 04, 2022, 08:53:14 am »
I found this VNA.
https://www.megiq.com/products/vna-0440

Also for almost the same price (3000€) I found this from Siglent
https://www.siglent.eu/product/1137246/siglent-sva1032x-3-2ghz-spectrum-vector-network-analyzer

What is your opinion? Is this value for money?
SVA1032X is one of my fav instruments however it is only a single port VNA therefore for S12 and S22 measurements the DUT needs be flipped to get the reversed stimulus measurements.
Of course they are a good SA too with quite reasonable input protection but you need study datasheets to ensure its specs will meet your requirements.
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Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: VNA recommendation
« Reply #42 on: February 04, 2022, 01:37:20 pm »
A major challenge of network analyzers for many of us is - they're complicated.  Even less expensive devices have abilities that may not be clear.  Most hobbyists and even some professional engineers have no one to mentor us on the capabilities of and use of complex instruments.  Of course, there are many resources available on-line today - so many that it can be overwhelming.
anything that you "dont need" will be complicated, no matter how simple it is even such as stitching clothes or fishing at the sea. we started with simple thing that we "do need" such as antenna tuning, there was a time when VSWR meter is the recommended one and very affordable device, but it can only shows one thing... fast forward now we can have a cheap portable VNA to do the same job... and then later we figured that a VNA can do much much more, anything that we think we will need, or going to need, we study more slowly, and we gained knowledge. the rest of capabilities, and the many ways of rigging up for various purposes, we ignore. we only use, study and learn what we need.

LIBREVNA 100KHZ - 6 GHZ USB based full 2 port VNA
Available on Amazon.  A bit cheaper on Aliexpress
I just got one but I have not unboxed it yet.  A bit of info out there on it.
This thing looks pretty nice. Wouldn't mind hearing how good this actually is.
it caught my eyes earlier before i made a purchase on LiteVNA, because i need some features up to 6GHz version of (compatible) my NanoVNA V2, thats not available in my Deepace KC901V VNA (reviewed by Shariar few years ago before the name "NanoVNA" even exist), i wonder why you still want one that is stuck near a PC desktop, ie missing LCD screen for portabilitiness? when you can have one at same or cheaper price with LCD and built in battery? and recently forum member dislord even further squeeze the last bit of harmonics trick to extend the range of LiteVNA to 9GHz, i just simply was not expecting it even the slightest bit in my brain cell, i never thought its possible, i thought, thats it! 6GHz is the best bang per buck i can get today or for few years to come.. you dont find a 9GHz VNA anywhere near $1K, even you step up a bit to a Deepace brand.. their 6GHz KC901V is still $2K and 10GHz KC901M is $2.5K, above than this afaik we dont have anything in between, you have to jump really up to Keysight or R&S et al, i'm not sure if Siglent has their 6-10GHz version.

Nano/Lite VNA is imho an ideal and A+++ 4 flat success proof of university master project of "build a cheaper alternative of expensive XXX device" thesis. even my Deepace KC901V has lots to be desired, missing something compared to my Nano/Lite/VNA-QT SW, performance is not really great as well, not recommended by Dr Kirkby, now i understand why when playing with Nano/Lite/QT... except still, my KC901V still has something not available in Nano/Lite, ie more polished and more usable/practical GUI such as vertical LogScale impedance Z plot (we can see 0 to Inf ohm impedance) in one screen, so i think KC901V is not fully obsolete yet, but for Deepace company, i think they are dead meat with the emergence of LiteVNA...

to OP unfortunately, with your $1K budget, you have to accept that what you are looking for is "toy" grade of Nano/Libre/Lite/Deepace VNA etc et al as someone termed it. quality brand new cal kit alone is already more than that cost. my Kirkby budget cal kit is half that, let alone the nice to touch Gore cables and attenuators collections. if you think you can get by with cheaper $10 china cal kit and coax cables, then you are fooling yourself around if what you want to do is beyond antenna tuning/vswr/return loss. before i bought KC901V 5 years ago, i waited in ebay for about a year for the used HP boat anchor VNA price to go down below $2K, there was no luck, and mostly they are missing the s-parm module that need to be hunted separately. i was really desperate there seemed to be no hope, so i bite the bullet on Deepace brand, on loan money for $2K. so if someone mourns about toyish or lowish grade of $100+ Nano/Lite, they are just amusement to me. if you complain, please give other alternative if not 5-6 digits price Keysight or R&S?

edit: maybe your argurment is that Libre is full 2-port. but are you really sure thats what you want? have you figured that by flipping DUT on 1-1/2 port VNA to get S22/S12 have limitation thats crippling you ability to measure? arent you going to miss the fun of measuring rf/antenna on the field? OwO mentioned that he's on progress to build a full 2-port NanoVNA V3 6GHz with better than -100dB noise, this will be an interesting wait, but i dont desperate so badly since i already have LiteVNA to do a job that i need. if i need full s-parm characterization, i'll wait for OwO. fwiw..
« Last Edit: February 04, 2022, 02:05:32 pm by Mechatrommer »
Nature: Evolution and the Illusion of Randomness (Stephen L. Talbott): Its now indisputable that... organisms “expertise” contextualizes its genome, and its nonsense to say that these powers are under the control of the genome being contextualized - Barbara McClintock
 

Offline xmo

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Re: VNA recommendation
« Reply #43 on: February 04, 2022, 05:17:14 pm »
"anything that you "don't need" will be complicated"
---------------
As a certifiable 'Test Equipment Addict' I am well aware of this and the urge to acquire new instruments to learn things and to satisfy curiosity.

I suspect that the vast majority of the low cost VNA's are bought for just that purpose - to satisfy curiosity.  After being played with a few times, most of them will spend the rest of their lives in a drawer.  A few will come out occasionally to look at an antenna., the rest - not so often.

That's all well and good.  I suppose many of us have instruments that mostly live in a drawer, but in Nikos case - a more recent post shows that he is considering units that cost north of 3000 USD.

That's pretty serious money to satisfy curiosity - which suggests there is a real or perceived 'need' in the equation.  That's why I recommended a thorough assessment and a comparison to capabilities of instruments under consideration.

Take that image I posted.  That's a Tx-Rx 28-70-02A duplexer.  One example of a very common type of filter used in commercial, public safety, and amateur radio repeater systems.  If an application like that is on your list - you want to be able to accomplish that task.

Looking at their specs - I just don't think you're going to get that kind of result from a nano, pico, megiq, or Siglent SVA1032X.  Siglent does make a unit that will do that - the SNA5000A series - but those are way more expensive.
 

Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: VNA recommendation
« Reply #44 on: February 05, 2022, 08:05:32 am »
W2aew made a video on tuning a diplexer or whatever rf notch filter for a friend using nano, so i guess its a capable device for the business.. $100 device in a drawer is better than $10k device collecting dust, ymmv.
Nature: Evolution and the Illusion of Randomness (Stephen L. Talbott): Its now indisputable that... organisms “expertise” contextualizes its genome, and its nonsense to say that these powers are under the control of the genome being contextualized - Barbara McClintock
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: VNA recommendation
« Reply #45 on: February 05, 2022, 03:56:29 pm »
W2aew made a video on tuning a diplexer or whatever rf notch filter for a friend using nano, so i guess its a capable device for the business.. $100 device in a drawer is better than $10k device collecting dust, ymmv.

I looked it up and found two videos (linked below).  I did not watch them except for the very end were he provides a conclusion.   Both suggest a better VNA is required.






Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: VNA recommendation
« Reply #46 on: February 05, 2022, 08:28:35 pm »
I did not watch them except for the very end were he provides a conclusion.   Both suggest a better VNA is required.
correct, both w2aew and xmo in earlier post above demonstrated the problem of noise floor where -100dB or better is the good one to see how deep is deep of the notch, except... which VNA as suggestion? can you (i mean OP or whoever) afford the USB based Tek TTR506? either that or you wait for OwO... we dont have any other better promise than OwO's... whether he can fullfill that is another story. afa tuning frequencies is concerned, the nano is spot on with Tek VNA in the video, ymmv.
Nature: Evolution and the Illusion of Randomness (Stephen L. Talbott): Its now indisputable that... organisms “expertise” contextualizes its genome, and its nonsense to say that these powers are under the control of the genome being contextualized - Barbara McClintock
 

Offline xmo

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Re: VNA recommendation
« Reply #47 on: February 05, 2022, 11:20:40 pm »
As w2aew points out, the nano is an incredible bargain.  It does so many things and lets a lot of radio enthusiasts explore and analyze in ways they could never afford until now.

That does nothing to alter the recommendation to do a thorough needs assessment and a comparison to capabilities of instruments under consideration before spending anything - especially for someone with a more serious than nano budget - like 1000 USD or more than 3000 USD.  That buyer must want some high performance capabilities.  It would be a shame to not get what you need but could have had by more careful shopping.

If you do spend serious money and some dust accumulates because you don't happen to use it every day  - that's what swiffers are for.


 

Offline G0HZU

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Re: VNA recommendation
« Reply #48 on: February 06, 2022, 08:21:08 pm »
I found this VNA.
https://www.megiq.com/products/vna-0440

Also for almost the same price (3000€) I found this from Siglent
https://www.siglent.eu/product/1137246/siglent-sva1032x-3-2ghz-spectrum-vector-network-analyzer

What is your opinion? Is this value for money?

The Megiq VNA looks like it only works down to 400MHz which seems a bit odd.

The Siglent SVA1032x SA/VNA looks like a nice spectrum analyser but the VNA functionality looks to be fairly restrictive with 10kHz RBW and limited dynamic range. I'm basing this on a quick skim through the datasheet. I wouldn't consider this to be a serious attempt by Siglent at manufacturing a VNA. Maybe I'm misreading the datasheet but the VNA specifications look poor to me.
 

Online tautech

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Re: VNA recommendation
« Reply #49 on: February 06, 2022, 10:29:30 pm »
I found this VNA.
https://www.megiq.com/products/vna-0440

Also for almost the same price (3000€) I found this from Siglent
https://www.siglent.eu/product/1137246/siglent-sva1032x-3-2ghz-spectrum-vector-network-analyzer

What is your opinion? Is this value for money?

The Megiq VNA looks like it only works down to 400MHz which seems a bit odd.

The Siglent SVA1032x SA/VNA looks like a nice spectrum analyser but the VNA functionality looks to be fairly restrictive with 10kHz RBW and limited dynamic range. I'm basing this on a quick skim through the datasheet. I wouldn't consider this to be a serious attempt by Siglent at manufacturing a VNA. Maybe I'm misreading the datasheet but the VNA specifications look poor to me.
Correct however the SVA range are useful instruments being both a SA and single port VNA.
The new SNA5000A OTOH are in a different class being 2 and 4 port VNA's and pricing in a whole different class to match.  :scared:
We have a 4.5 GHz 4 port model arriving in March.
Probably outside my capabilities to push the thing to any degree however it will be spending time with member hendorog where he'll put it against some of his legacy VNA's to see how it fares.
Stay tuned.  :)
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sna5000x-two-and-four-port-vnas-coming/
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