Author Topic: Does the taxation of robotics make any sense  (Read 11863 times)

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Offline soldar

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Re: Does the taxation of robotics make any sense
« Reply #125 on: April 07, 2019, 05:40:49 pm »
Really, UK Parliament cannot agree on anything but it is all the fault of the EU.

What would be acceptable to the UK? Nothing is acceptable to the UK. And it is all the fault of the EU.

In the meanwhile...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-04-01/easyjet-issues-cautious-outlook-with-demand-softened-by-brexit
EasyJet Issues ‘Cautious’ Outlook With Demand Softened by Brexit
Company issues cautious outlook as revenue falls in first half
Brexit issues add to woes for low-cost airlines in Europe



https://www.ft.com/content/4de95ff8-4419-11e9-a965-23d669740bfb
Low-cost airline easyJet is stockpiling parts for its aircraft in continental Europe, in case a no-deal Brexit severs its supply chains.
Johan Lundgren, chief executive, said easyJet had also been transferring three aircraft a week to its new Austrian subsidiary, which now had a fleet of 130.
He said the airline was “stockpiling” spare parts for the Austrian fleet, “so as part of our Brexit preparations we’re making sure we’re not reliant on spare parts . . . only in the UK”. He said easyJet had “pre-purchased a number of spare parts” and allocated them to the right facilities.
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Offline apis

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Re: Does the taxation of robotics make any sense
« Reply #126 on: April 07, 2019, 05:52:25 pm »
The northern Irish border is perceived as an obstacle to Brexit and if it really is, then the EU would be hesitant about allowing Scotland to join, creating another one!
No, it's the Irish who doesn't want a border through Ireland, and Westminster has promised there would never be one again. That's not a problem with the Scottish border.

The UK said they want a border to the rest of the EU, that is the very definition of Brexit so stop trying to pin this on the EU, the UK created this mess all by themselves.

Yes, the UK did threaten to block Scotland from joining the EU, but it doesn't mean it would actually happen: we wouldn't want a land border and customs checks. I suspect many of the EU's threats to the UK are empty too.
Right, just like the UK would never vote to leave the EU. The UK tried pretty hard to get guarantees from the EU that Scotland wouldn't be allowed to remain before the Scots even had a chance to vote.

UK promising to kick Scotland out of EU if they voted for independence was indeed a threat.

I haven't heard EU making any threats. Pointing out the consequences of leaving, which the EU has no control over, isn't a threat.

I find it ironic how Scotland wanted freedom from Westminster, where they have a lot of influence, only to cede more power to Brussels, where they'd have less.
That's not true at all. One of the core principles in the EU is that EU only decides about things that affect all the member states, i.e. the subsidiarity principle:
Quote
Under the principle of subsidiarity, in areas which do not fall within its exclusive competence, the Union shall act only if and in so far as the objectives of the proposed action cannot be sufficiently achieved by the Member States, either at central level or at regional and local level, but can rather, by reason of the scale or effects of the proposed action, be better achieved at Union level.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsidiarity#General_principle_of_European_Union_law

With Westminster it's the other way around. Scotland was forced to join the UK against their will. Scotland might be allowed to make a decision every now and then, but only if Westminster lets them.

In the next independence referendum Scotland will choose between Freedom and Westminster. They will choose between borders with England or borders with the rest of Europe. They will chose between EU's inner market (18.5T) or the UK's (2.5T).

I wouldn't bet on them choosing Westminster.

I'm all for more local autonomy. Scotland should have as much local power as possible, yet not have any trade barriers with the rest of the UK and the EU. Ideally there should be fewer politicians in Westminster and more in local government around the whole of the UK, not just Scotland.
That would have been the effect of the first Scottish independence referendum (if the UK didn't kick Scotland out of EU). They would have gained local autonomy while still being on the EU's common market and have free movement within Europe (no borders).
« Last Edit: April 07, 2019, 06:35:40 pm by apis »
 

Online rstofer

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Re: Does the taxation of robotics make any sense
« Reply #127 on: April 07, 2019, 05:53:55 pm »
Ryanair? 

A reasonable person would have dumped the stock back in August of 2018 at about $100 USD, down 20% from a high of $125 USD in March 2018.  OR, they rode it down to $75 USD with just the slightest recovery since a low of about $65 USD in Jan 2019.  A 40% slide is pretty breathtaking.

Disenfranchising?  Interesting idea!  I wonder how it will affect stock price.  It doesn't seem like it would be positive.

I don't know anything about retirement plans in the UK but I sure would hate to be holding Ryanair in my 401(k).  I just looked!  I don't...

Mr O'Leary is facing a lot of headwinds.
 

Offline soldar

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Re: Does the taxation of robotics make any sense
« Reply #128 on: April 07, 2019, 06:21:34 pm »
I have no sympathy for Ryanair and would be glad to see them go under but not before I get some compensation out of them.

But that has nothing to do with that Ryanair and many other companies are scrambling to get out of the UK and into the EU before Brexit happens.

UK can say what they want but that is not a sign that inspires confidence.

I can imagine the Cubans in 1959 when people were scrambling to get out with what they could and the Communists were confidently predicting a rosy future now that the people were in charge of their own destiny. The best laid plans of mice and men ...
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Offline soldar

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Re: Does the taxation of robotics make any sense
« Reply #129 on: April 07, 2019, 06:38:53 pm »
11 Brexit promises the government quietly dropped
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/ng-interactive/2018/mar/28/11-brexit-promises-leavers-quietly-dropped
Leaving aside the £350m for the NHS, Brexit has promised quick and easy trade deals with the EU and the rest of the world, an end to ECJ jurisdiction and free movement, and British control of North Sea fishing. None of this has come to pass. Here are 11 key abandoned claims
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Offline Zero999

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Re: Does the taxation of robotics make any sense
« Reply #130 on: April 07, 2019, 07:05:33 pm »
Ryanair are cunts and I'm glad to see the back of them.

People talk a lot of doom and gloom about Brexit, and the rest of the EU clearly blame the UK, but once the UK leaves, a lot of it will happen will be determined by the EU, rather than the UK: deal or no deal. The UK clearly don't want a border with the EU in Ireland, and nor does Ireland and there needn't be one, if the EU permits it. There could be huge barriers on trade with long queues in the ports or goods might be waved though, with no checks.

I can't believe people are now comparing the UK with a communist state. I agree the UK government have gone total retard on Brexit but comparing it to Cuba is beyond parody. Well perhaps if they don't honour the referendum result, a more fair comparison can be made to an authoritarian state. My hope is for another referendum. I can see how that would be unpopular, but I think it's the least worst option, at the moment.
 
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Offline apis

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Re: Does the taxation of robotics make any sense
« Reply #131 on: April 07, 2019, 07:22:23 pm »
People talk a lot of doom and gloom about Brexit, and the rest of the EU clearly blame the UK, but once the UK leaves, a lot of it will happen will be determined by the EU, rather than the UK: deal or no deal. The UK clearly don't want a border with the EU in Ireland, and nor does Ireland and there needn't be one, if the EU permits it. There could be huge barriers on trade with long queues in the ports or goods might be waved though, with no checks.
You seem to be in denial about this. It's understandable.

The UK wants a border with the EU (brexit). The republic of Ireland is a member of the EU. It follows that the UK wants a border with the Republic of Ireland. The UK can either put it between Norther Ireland and the Republic of Ireland (well, they really can't because of the Good Friday Agreement), or they can have it between Great Britain and Ireland (backstop). It's entirely up to the UK. (The EU would prefer no borders at all, of course).

The EU is just waiting for the UK to make up their mind and get on with it. (They won't let you delay forever.)

EDIT: For your convenience I'm gonna post this video again since it explains the situation better than I can.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2019, 07:29:36 pm by apis »
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: Does the taxation of robotics make any sense
« Reply #132 on: April 07, 2019, 08:01:27 pm »
I've never heard of the term "maximum Brexit" before and isn't a term used by the British. We have hard and soft Brexit, which represent a continuum ranging from total isolation from the EU, to leaving in name only and remaining in the single market and customs union. Of course that patronising video doesn't explain this.

In reality no one wants a border through Ireland. So why not put it through the Irish sea? No, the DUP doesn't want that, even though most of the UK would be happy with it. Others have proposed a gap in the border with the EU, between Northern and the RoI, but the EU won't allow that and oddly enough that video hasn't covered it, perhaps because it doesn't fit in with their political views? If the UK leaves on the 12th without a deal, Northern Ireland could theoretically keep the borer open, but the Republic would no doubt close it.

My own view is we should not leave, but if the public can't be persuaded, then we must do so properly. The UK should leave the Irish border open, then Ireland and the EU can make the decision whether or not to close the other side.
 

Online rstofer

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Re: Does the taxation of robotics make any sense
« Reply #133 on: April 07, 2019, 08:23:26 pm »
My hope is for another referendum. I can see how that would be unpopular, but I think it's the least worst option, at the moment.

But the people already voted to leave!  Should the UK go to 'do-overs' like the ROI?

There has been some ugly comments made re:  the UK and the UK voters over the last two years.  I would imagine some moderates are pretty unhappy with leaders of the EU.  What happens if the margin to leave (even with no deal) increases.  Substantially...

Another 3 year delay?  I was hoping this thing would be implemented in my lifetime so I could see how it worked out.

I know, the young people are convinced the old people who voted leave are dead or dying off but if they stopped to think, there are more old people being created just by virtue of the aging 'boomer' generation.  As I understand it, the young people think they can sway the vote.  Where were they during the first vote?  Are they actually going to vote on the next go-around?

A conservative is a liberal who has been mugged by reality.
 

Offline apis

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Re: Does the taxation of robotics make any sense
« Reply #134 on: April 07, 2019, 08:32:18 pm »
I've never heard of the term "maximum Brexit" before and isn't a term used by the British. We have hard and soft Brexit, which represent a continuum ranging from total isolation from the EU, to leaving in name only and remaining in the single market and customs union.
Maximum Brexit == Hard Brexit

(Over here a hard Brexit usually refers to a no-deal Brexit, so maybe they deliberately avoid that term to prevent confusion.)

My own view is we should not leave, but if the public can't be persuaded, then we must do so properly.
That makes sense.

The UK should leave the Irish border open, then Ireland and the EU can make the decision whether or not to close the other side.
That is not an option. The UK wants a border, that was the whole point of Brexit. If you leave the border to the EU open you have no Brexit at all. People and goods will enter and exit the UK without the UK's control, Brexit was supposed to prevent that.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2019, 08:39:23 pm by apis »
 

Offline soldar

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Re: Does the taxation of robotics make any sense
« Reply #135 on: April 07, 2019, 09:58:26 pm »
The UK should leave the Irish border open, then Ireland and the EU can make the decision whether or not to close the other side.
That is not an option. The UK wants a border, that was the whole point of Brexit. If you leave the border to the EU open you have no Brexit at all. People and goods will enter and exit the UK without the UK's control, Brexit was supposed to prevent that.

UK: We don't want open borders, we want to close the border.
EU: That presents a problem because YOU have a treaty where you say you want OPEN border with Ireland which is the EU
UK: Yes we want open border with Ireland
EU: So you want to remain as you are?
UK: NO, we want to close the borders so we have control.
EU: But that contradicts what you are saying that you want an open border with Ireland
UK: Yes, we want an open border with Ireland
EU: But that is what you have now which you say you don't want. So what is it?
UK: We want open borders with Ireland but not with the EU
EU: But Ireland IS the EU
UK: You just don't like me and you are trying to make things difficult for me! It's all your fault! That is why I don't like you either! Go away! I want to close the border!


I feel like just banging my head against the wall will be less painful.  |O
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Online rstofer

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Re: Does the taxation of robotics make any sense
« Reply #136 on: April 07, 2019, 10:04:33 pm »
The UK wants a border, that was the whole point of Brexit. If you leave the border to the EU open you have no Brexit at all. People and goods will enter and exit the UK without the UK's control, Brexit was supposed to prevent that.

As to economic migrants, Northern Ireland isn't a high value target.  In fact, since the Brexit vote, the number of immigrants has declined by 26%

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-44642297

A goodly percentage (20%) of farm workers in NI are economic migrants.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-45722054

In total, the number of immigrants is fairly small and manageable.  Just let them move back and forth to Romania and call it good.  In farming, you're only talking about 1400 people.  Not an overwhelming issue!

As to goods and services, goods transiting NI can be tagged for inspection in one of the other UK countries.  Products originating in NI can be tagged such that no further inspection is required.  This is solvable!

Is it perfect, beyond hacking?  Of course not!  But what percentage of cargo is checked today?  How much of it is contraband including human smuggling?  The US checks just about 4% of incoming containers in the US and 1% in foreign ports.  Somehow we survive.  Trusted traders and such.  But that leaves over 10 million containers coming into the US without inspection.  Seems like a lot.

http://www.westarusa.com/u-s-lawmakers-say-new-technology-time-inspect-inbound-containers/

Before the NI border can be solved, the primary players need to sit down with the WILL to solve it.  Veradkar has no interest in solving it as long as he thinks he can use it as a lever to reunite Ireland or force NI to remain in the EU.  No technical solution was ever acceptable.

Once the exit is over and done with, people will figure out how to solve the border.  Gamesmanship will be over and the players will be facing reality.  The EU and ROI will have more interest in coming up with a workable solution since, although Brexit created the issue, it is an issue to the EU and ROI, not the UK.

One thing about getting the 'exit' over with is that all the side issues can then be ranked by importance and dealt with in a much more realistic and less political manner.  Did anybody ever believe the 'landing rights' debate?  It was absurd to think that UK airlines couldn't land in EU countries!  Did anybody think about reciprocity?  EU airlines couldn't land in UK?  That would shut Ryanair down!  It sure got a lot of press at the time.  Part of project fear I suppose.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2019, 10:06:29 pm by rstofer »
 

Offline apis

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Re: Does the taxation of robotics make any sense
« Reply #137 on: April 07, 2019, 10:29:25 pm »
Before the NI border can be solved, the primary players need to sit down with the WILL to solve it.
The negotiations are already over. They've been at it for three years. Now we're waiting for the British parliament to make up their mind. Next week Theresa May is going to ask the EU for a delay, but it's not certain she will get one (although it's likely, because the EU is too nice/soft to just kick them out without a deal).

Not sure what you are saying about the border? It sounds like you are arguing for the backstop which is what Theresa May wants, but the British parliament voted no to her three times in a row.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2019, 11:21:52 pm by apis »
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Does the taxation of robotics make any sense
« Reply #138 on: April 08, 2019, 12:59:15 am »
Some leave voters are changing their minds, as understanding increases.  For example:

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/i-was-strong-brexiteer-now-we-must-swallow-our-pride-and-think-again/
 
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Online Siwastaja

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Re: Does the taxation of robotics make any sense
« Reply #139 on: April 08, 2019, 06:10:00 am »
Ireland IS the EU

You really don't see anything wrong in this statement?

Like, on the fundamental level.

If not, let me fix it for you: Ireland is a member of a political and economical union called EU.

EU has always been, legally is, and IMHO, should remain, a "club". This is what people voted for when joining EU. This is the EU I support.

If you start treating it as a country, you end up with such ridiculous contradictions, and unhappy people wanting to leave it before it indeed becomes a country. This is not surprising at all. Brexit has one positive side to it: it shows that it is possible to leave EU, and this means competition of ideas: EU has to prove itself useful and good for the people in the remaining EU countries, to avoid more *xits; this can only lead to more democratic, and more widely accepted decisions in the future. This kind of freedom of choice can only work to prevent a slide into totalitarism; it's a protective measure, very good to have within EU I like. I find it very peculiar how certain people flip this over and compare choosing not being a part of EU to totalitarism.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2019, 06:28:27 am by Siwastaja »
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: Does the taxation of robotics make any sense
« Reply #140 on: April 08, 2019, 09:50:58 am »
The UK should leave the Irish border open, then Ireland and the EU can make the decision whether or not to close the other side.
That is not an option. The UK wants a border, that was the whole point of Brexit. If you leave the border to the EU open you have no Brexit at all. People and goods will enter and exit the UK without the UK's control, Brexit was supposed to prevent that.

UK: We don't want open borders, we want to close the border.
EU: That presents a problem because YOU have a treaty where you say you want OPEN border with Ireland which is the EU
UK: Yes we want open border with Ireland
EU: So you want to remain as you are?
UK: NO, we want to close the borders so we have control.
EU: But that contradicts what you are saying that you want an open border with Ireland
UK: Yes, we want an open border with Ireland
EU: But that is what you have now which you say you don't want. So what is it?
UK: We want open borders with Ireland but not with the EU
EU: But Ireland IS the EU
UK: You just don't like me and you are trying to make things difficult for me! It's all your fault! That is why I don't like you either! Go away! I want to close the border!


I feel like just banging my head against the wall will be less painful.  |O
It's not that simple.

There are not two parties in this dispute, but four: Westminster, the DUP (who govern Northern Ireland), the Irish Republic and the EU and it's impossible to please them all.

Westminster are happy with the idea of a border across the Irish sea and for Northern Ireland to remain in the customs union, allowing the internal Irish border to remain open.

The DUP are unhappy with Northern Ireland being treated differently to the rest of the UK. If the UK leave the customs union, they want to follow, but it would involve closing the internal Irish border and breaching the Good Friday treaty.

The Irish Republic don't want a border inside Ireland, as it would contradict the Good Friday agreement.

What I was proposing was Northern Ireland, along with the rest of the UK to leave the customs union, with some kind of arrangement with the Irish Republic to keep the border as open as possible, but the EU will not allow this.

Most people in Northern Ireland voted to remain in the UK, accept Brexit will happen, but want to remain within the customs union, even if the rest of the UK leaves, to prevent this problem, but the DUP are holding firm. It could be argued that the DUP are to blame here, especially as they don't represent the view of those they govern.

When the UK leaves, they will have a choice of which borders they want to close or not. They could theoretically keep the Northern Irish side open, irrespective of the EU's decision. If that happens, the EU could be blamed, as if it wasn't for them, no doubt the RoI would have been happy with an open border with Northern Ireland. I think if that happens, the RoI would rather piss of Brussels, than risk the IRA reforming.

So you can still blame Westminster for starting this, but saying well you started it, is the standard response in the playground.

We shouldn't play the blame game, but try to seek a compromise which will upset as few people as possible and keep the peace.

Ireland IS the EU

You really don't see anything wrong in this statement?

Like, on the fundamental level.

If not, let me fix it for you: Ireland is a member of a political and economical union called EU.

EU has always been, legally is, and IMHO, should remain, a "club". This is what people voted for when joining EU. This is the EU I support.

If you start treating it as a country, you end up with such ridiculous contradictions, and unhappy people wanting to leave it before it indeed becomes a country. This is not surprising at all. Brexit has one positive side to it: it shows that it is possible to leave EU, and this means competition of ideas: EU has to prove itself useful and good for the people in the remaining EU countries, to avoid more *xits; this can only lead to more democratic, and more widely accepted decisions in the future. This kind of freedom of choice can only work to prevent a slide into totalitarism; it's a protective measure, very good to have within EU I like. I find it very peculiar how certain people flip this over and compare choosing not being a part of EU to totalitarism.
Yes that's a very strong reason behind Brexit. Although the members of the EU have a say over how it is run, the centre of power is far too distant from the people and lacks accountability. Many voted leave, because they don't like the way the EU is heading: ever closer union, which they see as the path to a superstate. One of the biggest reasons why I voted to remain was because of this, just that it's better to be on the inside and  have some say on the direction of the EU, than on the outside, but still affected by it and have no influence over it.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2019, 12:31:54 pm by Zero999 »
 

Offline apis

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Re: Does the taxation of robotics make any sense
« Reply #141 on: April 08, 2019, 02:09:20 pm »
The Irish Republic don't want a border inside Ireland, as it would contradict the Good Friday agreement.

What I was proposing was Northern Ireland, along with the rest of the UK to leave the customs union, with some kind of arrangement with the Irish Republic to keep the border as open as possible, but the EU will not allow this.
No it's the Irish people who doesn't wan't a border on the island of Ireland and the UK has promised there would never be a border through Ulster again, that is the problem.

The Republic of Ireland is a member of the EU and negotiate through the EU, but to all the other EU members it doesn't matter where the border is. So it is just silly to blame this on the EU.

The brexiteers should have predicted this problem, the Good Friday Agreement was a known fact. At the same time they are blocking the British parliament from making a decision and try and blame the EU for it. That requires some serious mental gymnastics and it's just plain ridiculous.

The British parliament voted no to Theresa May's deal three times in a row, are you saying that is only because DUP is against it?
"Theresa May's Conservative party has 316 seats, and it has also secured the support of the 10 seats from the DUP."
DUP doesn't have that kind of influence.

So you can still blame Westminster for starting this, but saying well you started it, is the standard response in the playground.
Why then do you insist on blaming the UK's troubles on the EU? The whole Brexit circus is characterised by lies, vitriol and smear campaigns directed against the EU and remainers. One of the remain campaigners were even murdered by brexiters. This isn't childsplay, even if it's on the same mental level.

The brexiteers doesn't simply want to the UK to leave, they want to destroy the EU. EU has a right to defend itself from false accusations and anti-EU propaganda.

UK kicks someone.
Someone: Ouch, why did you do that?
UK: It wasn't me, it was the EU.
EU: No it was the UK, here's the proof.
UK: We're both equally at fault and it is childish to say who started it.
EU: |O
« Last Edit: April 08, 2019, 02:11:16 pm by apis »
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: Does the taxation of robotics make any sense
« Reply #142 on: April 08, 2019, 02:33:37 pm »
The Irish Republic don't want a border inside Ireland, as it would contradict the Good Friday agreement.

What I was proposing was Northern Ireland, along with the rest of the UK to leave the customs union, with some kind of arrangement with the Irish Republic to keep the border as open as possible, but the EU will not allow this.
No it's the Irish people who doesn't wan't a border on the island of Ireland and the UK has promised there would never be a border through Ulster again, that is the problem.
Same thing. No one in Ireland wants an internal border.

Quote
The Republic of Ireland is a member of the EU and negotiate through the EU, but to all the other EU members it doesn't matter where the border is. So it is just silly to blame this on the EU.
That's part of the problem, the rest of the EU have to agree. If it were just the RoI, then it would be easier to reach an agreement.

Quote
The brexiteers should have predicted this problem, the Good Friday Agreement was a known fact. At the same time they are blocking the British parliament from making a decision and try and blame the EU for it. That requires some serious mental gymnastics and it's just plain ridiculous.
And the whole of EU, which included the UK at the time, should have considered this when they drafted the Lisbon treaty and Article 50, but it wasn't, because no one ever thought it would be used.

Quote
The British parliament voted no to Theresa May's deal three times in a row, are you saying that is only because DUP is against it?
"Theresa May's Conservative party has 316 seats, and it has also secured the support of the 10 seats from the DUP."
DUP doesn't have that kind of influence.
You're right, it's not just the DUP and Brexiteers, but many of the remainers too. The backstop is only one of the numbers reasons why it was rejected. Lots of the remainers want a softer Brexit deal and would never allow May's deal to pass. I personally support it, because it's the least worse option.

Quote
So you can still blame Westminster for starting this, but saying well you started it, is the standard response in the playground.
Why then do you insist on blaming the UK's troubles on the EU? The whole Brexit circus is characterised by lies, vitriol and smear campaigns directed against the EU and remainers. One of the remain campaigners were even murdered by brexiters. This isn't childsplay, even if it's on the same mental level.

The brexiteers doesn't simply want to the UK to leave, they want to destroy the EU. EU has a right to defend itself from false accusations and anti-EU propaganda.
I don't blame all the UK's troubles on the EU. I can understand why many people voted to leave. I agree with about 10% of what the leave campaign said. Sympathising with the other side and agreeing with them are different matters. Yes there was a lot of anti-EU propaganda and lies going around with Brexit, which is why I support another referendum.

I seriously don't think that many people want to destroy the EU. Perhaps some on the extreme right do, but most in favour of Brexit don't and just want to leave the EU. I don't want to destroy the EU. It just needs reform, for the good of everyone.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2019, 02:39:51 pm by Zero999 »
 

Offline apis

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Re: Does the taxation of robotics make any sense
« Reply #143 on: April 08, 2019, 04:02:43 pm »
I seriously don't think that many people want to destroy the EU. Perhaps some on the extreme right do, but most in favour of Brexit don't and just want to leave the EU. I don't want to destroy the EU. It just needs reform, for the good of everyone.
Not the "sheeple" who voted for Brexit, but many of the politicians and the people who are funding and organising the Brexit campaign do. After the referendum they were cheering and gleefully proclaiming that other countries would follow suit and that it would lead to a complete collapse of the union. The foreign influencers are of course from the EU's competition and many of them seem to think it is in their interest if europe descend into a circus of infighting. There are problems with EU, most people agree with that, but those problems are fixable and we would be far worse off without the EU. If the UK were campaigning for more transparency and democracy reforms I would be on the barricades with you, but Brexit is just self goal.
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: Does the taxation of robotics make any sense
« Reply #144 on: April 08, 2019, 04:13:41 pm »
Thinking this through again. Yes, the UK government are largely to blame for this. The reason for my defensiveness, was because I felt personally attacked, by the assertion that the UK citizens are at fault. Don't forget that the government's position is very different to that of most people, even those who voted to leave. My father voted to leave for various reasons and destroying Europe is not one of them. I voted to remain, despite my misgivings about Europe, largely because it's good for the economy, as well as hopefully being able to put the brakes on the ever closer union nonsense. There are many things I dislike about some of the Eurocrats, but I also hate many of out own politicians, especially those in UKIP.

The government should have drafted up a workable Brexit plan before the referendum. The reason they didn't was because they didn't believe the Brexit vote would ever win. Then Nigel who supported Brexit left, which was retarded. May then messed up when she called for another general election, otherwise she might've been able to get her deal though. I admit, I think the EU could have handled it better, but they're not as bad as the UK government, who have produced a catalogue of failures!

I wouldn't be surprised if there was some foreign interference in Brexit, but a lot of it came from within and has been there for a long time. I believe a lot of people weren't happy with the Mastricht treaty, then came the expansion of the EU into the former Eastern Bloc which many disapproved of, but I wouldn't advocate undoing any of that.
 

Offline soldar

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Re: Does the taxation of robotics make any sense
« Reply #145 on: April 08, 2019, 05:34:50 pm »
The referendum was a colossal blunder. The common person on the street is not informed or capable of making decisions on complex issues. People do not have time for that and that is why they elect representatives who can inform themselves and hire experts to study issues in depth. To pretend that the average person on the street is capable of deciding these things is just populist pandering. Representative democracy has worked well in the UK since forever and the referendum should never have taken place. Cameron will go down in history as one of the people who did most damage to the UK. 

The referendum was not binding in any way. Final responsibility for government decisions rests with Parliament and they are cowards for not doing their jobs. If they had a spine they would say "after taking the advice contained in the results of the referendum and having considered all the facts we have, we are going to do what we consider is in the bests interests of the UK". And they would show their leadership and the people would support them.

You cannot lead by following. Just to give one example, America in the 1960s was deeply racist and in favor of segregation and it took strong leaders to lead America away from that. A country needs leaders not idiots who just follow the common, ignorant man on the street.

Having made one huge blunder the correct thing to do is change course. Only a fool would insist on continuing charging ahead towards slaughter, like the Light Brigade. I forget who, when confronted with someone accusing him of having changed his mind said something like "Yes, when the information I have available changes I change my mind. What do you do?" (Searching I see it is attributed to Keynes and/or Paul Samuelson.)

I was going to copy a few significant paragraphs of the following article but I decided anyone interested really needs to read it in full because it is outstanding.  Really good.  I strongly recommend it. 

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/i-was-strong-brexiteer-now-we-must-swallow-our-pride-and-think-again/
I was a strong Brexiteer. Now we must swallow our pride and think again
If we are to leave the European Union we want a sensible Brexit. There’s no chance of that just now.

E.T.A.: I just saw this link was posted in #138 by SilverSolder. Good recommendation.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2019, 05:58:50 pm by soldar »
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Online rstofer

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Re: Does the taxation of robotics make any sense
« Reply #146 on: April 08, 2019, 09:10:41 pm »
The referendum was a colossal blunder. The common person on the street is not informed or capable of making decisions on complex issues. People do not have time for that and that is why they elect representatives who can inform themselves and hire experts to study issues in depth. To pretend that the average person on the street is capable of deciding these things is just populist pandering. Representative democracy has worked well in the UK since forever and the referendum should never have taken place. Cameron will go down in history as one of the people who did most damage to the UK. 

And yet the voters did right when they voted to remain in what would become the EU in a similar referendum in 1975 after Edward Heath's government signed on in 1973.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975_United_Kingdom_European_Communities_membership_referendum

Seems they misunderstood that time too!  What if they had voted no?  Would they have had a do-over like the ROI?  Keep voting until they got it right?

People vote for representatives that are supposed to represent their views.  They don't elect dictators.  It makes no sense for a majority of voters to approve something only to have their elected representatives say 'no, you can't have that even though we let you vote for it'.  Woe be the representative that says 'you're too stupid to understand what you voted for'.

What they voted for was simple and didn't require any thought on their part.  Leave the EU!  Simple as that.  Do whatever is necessary to restore the UK's sovereignty.  And get it done soon!  The details are left for their representatives to work out.  But the goal remains unchanged.
 

Offline soldar

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Re: Does the taxation of robotics make any sense
« Reply #147 on: April 08, 2019, 09:50:32 pm »
What they voted for was simple and didn't require any thought on their part.  Leave the EU!  Simple as that.


Yeah, so what if it reignites a civil war in the Irish border? Who cares? We said we want out regardless of consequences.

Thank goodness that Parliament have not totally taken leave of their senses.


Do whatever is necessary to restore the UK's sovereignty.  And get it done soon!  The details are left for their representatives to work out.  But the goal remains unchanged.

Yeah. We voted for something impossible and our representatives better work out the details ASAP.

The voters voted for something impossible. If you have the formula to make it happen I am sure in Westminster they would love to hear from you.

Like populisms have any good record at all. I can't think of any populism that ended well and, frankly, when outsiders preach for populisms under the guise that it's "democracy" I get suspicious of their intentions.

I do not consider populist democracy to be an end in itself. I consider good government, stability, order, progress to be good ends and forms of government are means towards those ends. In the UK and elsewhere representative democracy has a pretty good record while populist movements that ostensibly give power directly to the people have a pretty bad record. Outsiders preaching for populist governments and populist measures are very suspicious to me.
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Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Does the taxation of robotics make any sense
« Reply #148 on: April 09, 2019, 12:04:08 am »
the expansion of the EU into the former Eastern Bloc which many disapproved of

You are aware that this expansion was instigated and driven by the UK, with the other large members protesting?  (Tony Blair's government)
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Does the taxation of robotics make any sense
« Reply #149 on: April 09, 2019, 12:09:01 am »

The referendum was a colossal blunder. The common person on the street is not informed or capable of making decisions on complex issues.


The problem was that the Vote Leave campaign lied, and lied, and lied...   hardly any of the things they said turned out to be true, or implementable. 
 


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