Author Topic: Fuses coming to CPUs... or not  (Read 1908 times)

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Offline PKTKS

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Fuses coming to CPUs... or not
« on: March 14, 2022, 01:59:55 pm »
Today  I found myself reading all these tech tips and stuff that nowadays pop everywhere thanks to tubers devotes...

This folk and others raised a serious concern as if FUSES are now integrated into CPUs as well and no longer a premise of some MCUs AVRs...

https://linustechtips.com/topic/1404447-yikes-lenovo-is-vendor-locking-amd-ryzen-cpus-via-psb/

In particular LeNovo seems to be using that filthy trick widespread across the every_day_less_trusty  UEFI boots..

https://wccftech.com/lenovo-vendor-locking-ryzen-based-systems-through-amd-platform-secure-boot-in-the-client-pc-segment/

Any reasonably reliable information welcome as well as some sort of precautions of the second hand CPU/MCU market...

you know FUSES are a very shitty thing to deal with..  ???

to say the least
Paul
 

Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: Fuses coming to CPUs... or not
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2022, 02:03:00 pm »
Halt and burn out.
 

Offline PKTKS

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Re: Fuses coming to CPUs... or not
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2022, 02:31:14 pm »
Halt and burn out.

geez i hope that would be that simple...

But as far as it seems they moved the feature from the always locked by default server market to the consumer CPUs..  and that is deeply buried into these UEFI firmwares..

so...  the second hand market will have a TSUNAMI impact with these locked FUSES by default .. and also the boards with UEFI already locked at factory..

in other words.. the carve a way to make CPU+board a landfill garbage..
almost hardly impossible to  fix or upgrade ... 

as far as it seems ahead..

x86 is becoming a unreliable liability
Paul
 

Online Kleinstein

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Re: Fuses coming to CPUs... or not
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2022, 04:05:54 pm »
An exchange of the CPU is not that common anyway. After a few years there is anyway a chance that a different socket is used or at least the question of the old MB still supports the a new CPU.  With the extra secure boot part the CPU and MB stay together - so use them longer or change CPU and MB as a pair. An old CPU, that is replaced because it got too slow has anyway only a rather limited value to be reused.

There is anyway a tendency to more notebooks and compact PCs, where a CPU change is impossible or difficult anyway.
 

Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: Fuses coming to CPUs... or not
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2022, 04:14:14 pm »
An exchange of the CPU is not that common anyway. After a few years there is anyway a chance that a different socket is used or at least the question of the old MB still supports the a new CPU.  With the extra secure boot part the CPU and MB stay together - so use them longer or change CPU and MB as a pair. An old CPU, that is replaced because it got too slow has anyway only a rather limited value to be reused.

There is anyway a tendency to more notebooks and compact PCs, where a CPU change is impossible or difficult anyway.

I just watched a Chris Barnett video (explaining computers - Y/T) on swapping a CPU. A number of minutes of the vid was spent wondering/hoping that the OS wouldn't take offence of the hardware change and what to do when the inevitable need to beg for forgiveness when the OS deems your own HW manipulation unworthy. FFS.
 

Offline MK14

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Re: Fuses coming to CPUs... or not
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2022, 04:39:27 pm »
I'm suspicious it is related to the way Windows 11, wants to securely lock you into using their version of windows, in a locked down computer, using a windows account. Hence locking the CPU into that particular vendor, using hardware one use only, internal 'fuses', seems to be all the rage these days.
I also suspect, if we question those vendor(s) about this, they would claim, rightly or wrongly, that it is needed, for security reasons.

I'm disappointed that AMD are (apparently) happy to allow their CPUs to be vendor locked, in a permanent and unrecoverable way. AMD seem to have gone the way of being Intel like, and more concerned about profit and things, at any cost, while ignoring/hurting the consumers and users of their products.
Which is suppose to be a common business trend these days. I.e. big businesses being run by big accountants, rather than big engineers, at the top of the companies.
 

Offline PKTKS

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Re: Fuses coming to CPUs... or not
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2022, 04:41:25 pm »
An exchange of the CPU is not that common anyway. After a few years there is anyway a chance that a different socket is used or at least the question of the old MB still supports the a new CPU.  With the extra secure boot part the CPU and MB stay together - so use them longer or change CPU and MB as a pair. An old CPU, that is replaced because it got too slow has anyway only a rather limited value to be reused.

There is anyway a tendency to more notebooks and compact PCs, where a CPU change is impossible or difficult anyway.

At least here.. prices are always skyrocket above elsewhere..

It has been a more or less default way upgrading smart MOBOS.. those with native long CPU support list  with more capable CPUs.. when a second hand used market finally put prices into some sort of sane region..

That is a healthy market where folks can buy and sell used stuff.
Both side win.. and stuff does not goes landfills..

on the other hand..  land grid arrays can also be upgraded.. although the price does not worth .. in case of defective BGAs it has been a solution..

This new feature  obvioulsy will put REPAIRS out of the question as well

On servers.. it was never an issue.. but if that kind of greed hits consumer markets..

well lets hope this does not shrinks even more the market and probably will just have the effect of increasing E-wastelands..

but manufacts. dont give a ** *** for that.. as long as sales are high

Paul
 

Offline PKTKS

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Re: Fuses coming to CPUs... or not
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2022, 04:42:49 pm »

I'm disappointed that AMD are (apparently) happy to allow their CPUs to be vendor locked, in a permanent and unrecoverable way. AMD seem to have gone the way of being Intel like, and more concerned about profit and things, at any cost, while ignoring/hurting the consumers and users of their products.
Which is suppose to be a common business trend these days. I.e. big businesses being run by big accountants, rather than big engineers, at the top of the companies.

MEEEEEE TOO !!!!!

This has been the TOP REASON to select AMD MOBOS over others..

And that goes to hell as well.

Paul
 
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Online wraper

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Re: Fuses coming to CPUs... or not
« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2022, 04:50:33 pm »
Intel laptop CPUs were vendor locked for years.
 
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Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: Fuses coming to CPUs... or not
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2022, 04:57:36 pm »
Intel laptop CPUs were vendor locked for years.

We always referred to them as Wintels. Most likely they had stupid wifi and graphics interfaces too.
 

Offline PKTKS

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Re: Fuses coming to CPUs... or not
« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2022, 04:58:54 pm »
Intel laptop CPUs were vendor locked for years.

more or less... this feature has been around since UEFI  appeared..

But not that deep extent of trouble on the CPU market..
In particular MOBOS with long list of CPU support
and second hand CPUs market..

I am day by day more and more suspicious about UEFI and how bad it has been more a  trojan of particular bad agendas..

Paul

 

Offline MrMobodies

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Re: Fuses coming to CPUs... or not
« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2022, 05:17:47 pm »
Quote
The basic premise of the technology is that it blows field-programmable fuses that lock an AMD CPU to the vendor’s system. The concept is to create a permanent platform so the CPU must align with the motherboard for security purposes. Many of our readers are rightfully nervous about this. One cannot tell a CPU has been PSB fused and so purchasing CPUs on the secondary market can be perilous. If, for example, one purchases a fused Lenovo or Dell AMD EPYC CPU and tries to put it in a non-Lenovo or Dell system it should not work.

They might as well just solder it than use a socket.
 
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Offline PKTKS

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Re: Fuses coming to CPUs... or not
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2022, 09:58:43 am »
Quote
The basic premise of the technology is that it blows field-programmable fuses that lock an AMD CPU to the vendor’s system. The concept is to create a permanent platform so the CPU must align with the motherboard for security purposes. Many of our readers are rightfully nervous about this. One cannot tell a CPU has been PSB fused and so purchasing CPUs on the secondary market can be perilous. If, for example, one purchases a fused Lenovo or Dell AMD EPYC CPU and tries to put it in a non-Lenovo or Dell system it should not work.

They might as well just solder it than use a socket.

On the BGA  segment that was never a problem...  up to now..

The overall  net end result  by locking MOBO + CPU + VENDOR.. is orders of magnitude more restrictive  by this way..  they will not even need specific BGA layouts..
they can reuse spcific mobos with sockets for that simple locking

They will LOCK MOBO CPU VENDOR AND  particular OS versions with a simple FUSE instead

Things have reached  crossroads for the x86 platform..

Paul
 

Online BradC

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Re: Fuses coming to CPUs... or not
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2022, 01:48:32 pm »
Today  I found myself reading all these tech tips and stuff that nowadays pop everywhere thanks to tubers devotes...

This folk and others raised a serious concern as if FUSES are now integrated into CPUs as well and no longer a premise of some MCUs AVRs...

https://linustechtips.com/topic/1404447-yikes-lenovo-is-vendor-locking-amd-ryzen-cpus-via-psb/

In particular LeNovo seems to be using that filthy trick widespread across the every_day_less_trusty  UEFI boots..

https://wccftech.com/lenovo-vendor-locking-ryzen-based-systems-through-amd-platform-secure-boot-in-the-client-pc-segment/

Any reasonably reliable information welcome as well as some sort of precautions of the second hand CPU/MCU market...

Don't buy "second hand" cpus from shitty vendors. Simples...

Is it a crappy thing to do? Probably. Frankly if you have an honest vendor then you know what you are getting. If you have a dishonest vendor, then it is what it is. Next you'll be blaming Samsung for selling 1200mAH 18650 cells that get shrinkwrapped "Trustfire 6500mAH".

Frankly if Lenovo wants an AMD processor that is vendor locked to a key then it's on Lenovo rather than the people they did what they paid them (probably a crapload of money) to do. Of course if AMD said to Lenovo "We'll see you these processors at half price if you put this key in your BIOS and let us lock them to your systems" then it's still on Lenovo.
 

Offline PKTKS

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Re: Fuses coming to CPUs... or not
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2022, 02:46:43 pm »
Today  I found myself reading all these tech tips and stuff that nowadays pop everywhere thanks to tubers devotes...

This folk and others raised a serious concern as if FUSES are now integrated into CPUs as well and no longer a premise of some MCUs AVRs...

https://linustechtips.com/topic/1404447-yikes-lenovo-is-vendor-locking-amd-ryzen-cpus-via-psb/

In particular LeNovo seems to be using that filthy trick widespread across the every_day_less_trusty  UEFI boots..

https://wccftech.com/lenovo-vendor-locking-ryzen-based-systems-through-amd-platform-secure-boot-in-the-client-pc-segment/

Any reasonably reliable information welcome as well as some sort of precautions of the second hand CPU/MCU market...

Don't buy "second hand" cpus from shitty vendors. Simples...

Is it a crappy thing to do? Probably. Frankly if you have an honest vendor then you know what you are getting. If you have a dishonest vendor, then it is what it is. Next you'll be blaming Samsung for selling 1200mAH 18650 cells that get shrinkwrapped "Trustfire 6500mAH".

Frankly if Lenovo wants an AMD processor that is vendor locked to a key then it's on Lenovo rather than the people they did what they paid them (probably a crapload of money) to do. Of course if AMD said to Lenovo "We'll see you these processors at half price if you put this key in your BIOS and let us lock them to your systems" then it's still on Lenovo.


Well ...  it would be  great .. in an ideal world *IF* the prices would be reasonably equivalent all around crazy world...

It just happens that here taxes are aprox. 80% (obligatory included shipping, insurance if any and freight) plus the international value..

So anything you see EBAY or ALI or .. Newegg.. has at least 80% margin from taxes..

Currently BR = 5x U$ .. so the second hand market will not vanish anytime soon..

And i expect things got really skyrocket with such nonsense less value products..


Attached the values as of TODAY for some CPUs..

No it just makes a lot of sense wait the prices settle down to reasonable sane values..
BR-customs do not take for granted that kind of products..

Consumer theory from other markets are just idiot nonsense with such taxes..

ALAS BTW that sort of locked OEM products will just create a generation of wasteland non repairable boxes...  discarded by OEM end users large contractors..

May be... may be.. the ultimate goal :o

Paul
« Last Edit: March 15, 2022, 02:54:18 pm by PKTKS »
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Fuses coming to CPUs... or not
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2022, 04:57:48 am »
It is just another example of the excessive rent-seeking so prevalent today.



Make no mistake: I am for market competition, and making the most profit a company can.  What I object to, is getting the users to pay both coming and going, and especially using law (like DRM circumvention bans on hardware you own) to ensure profit at every possible step.  Just like with taxes, there is an optimal balance; and extracting everything even remotely possible, will just salt the fields.  Rent-seeking without reciprocality is damaging to both the economy and the human society: it focuses us to the wrong things.

Just the other day, I started wondering if de-electronizing of utility vehicles like garden tractors would actually be a valid market niche. Like the Linux kernel, you'd have a garden tractor platform with completely open schematics and hardware designs, extendable by users, with no possibility of DRM or similar lock-in.  If you get one, you can do anything you like with it, and if you have the equipment or access to someone with a metal shop, you can even make replacement parts yourself forever.  Small one-man metal shops could do all maintenance and replacements, and add-on features like GPS tracking could be added by dedicated similarly open electronics shops.

(Why garden tractors?  I like gardening, and tractors are currently even more DRM-locked down than cars are.  It is also a very similar platform to the Linux kernel, having hard attachment points for all kinds of tools, like for digging, trenching, and for a small garden tractor, even cutting the lawn.)
 
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Offline PKTKS

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Re: Fuses coming to CPUs... or not
« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2022, 02:00:03 pm »
It is just another example of the excessive rent-seeking so prevalent today.
(..)

Here .. where exorbitant taxes are always eroding  economy.. this has been harboring for some as a business ..  really nasty business...

IRONIC as a mock..  they are already selling this new feature of a crippled locked hardware as security.. and promoting that with fanfare..

IRONIC how ignorance may be a bless for those paying for such completely empty and void  security..  no more than a crippled rented hardware...

they will expire the gizmo as soon as the need for cash demands..

I AM ALREADY SEARCHING ALL POSSIBLE ALTERNATIVES to replace x86.

Paul
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Fuses coming to CPUs... or not
« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2022, 05:48:33 pm »
As I talk about now and again, what is concerning is not the free market approach whatsoever. (And one could even argue that the kind of economy we have these days is actually *not* quite free market for a number of reasons that would take a while to elaborate on.)

What is concerning is the fact more and more companies have been able to switch to a model that doesn't force them to please their customers, which was once the rule for doing business. They can increasingly come up with products that are in fact *worse* than their previous ones while raising prices, and still get away with that. The "rent" model is a tool to that end, but it's not directly related, of course. Companies can always rent very expensive stuff (that is expensive for completely objective reasons), and they have been doing so for ages. That's not a problem and actually helps customers get access to this stuff they could otherwise never afford. But that's typically not how subscription-based business works these days. You often now have no other choice, and for products you would otherwise have been totally able to afford if they were still priced fairly.

So, rent-seeking is not the problem, it's just a symptom.
The real problem is that our economy has shifted to a model that is not balanced anymore in terms of power between buyers and sellers, at least increasingly. This is concerning and will likely end up badly if the trend goes on.

 
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Offline PKTKS

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Re: Fuses coming to CPUs... or not
« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2022, 03:39:51 pm »
As I talk about now and again, what is concerning is not the free market approach whatsoever. (And one could even argue that the kind of economy we have these days is actually *not* quite free market for a number of reasons that would take a while to elaborate on.)

What is concerning is the fact more and more companies have been able to switch to a model that doesn't force them to please their customers, (..)

But it look likes so..   :wtf:

Things are converging to just yet the very same old players of ever...

Locked CPU with a MOBO and a hashed tagged OS  supervised and approved by UEFI firmware will make the very same vendors and corps. to maintain everybody out and just the same folks on the guild.

https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=AMD-Joins-AlmaLinux

have a look who are the players backing distroX  distroY and so..

finally just some less than half dozen distros will boot on such generations CPUs

Paul

 


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