Author Topic: BALANCED POWER?? more snake oil or is there something to it??  (Read 9690 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online dr.diesel

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2197
  • Country: us
  • Cramming the magic smoke back in...
Re: BALANCED POWER?? more snake oil or is there something to it??
« Reply #25 on: August 30, 2013, 10:12:15 pm »
Well, EXCUUUUUUSE me!

There is no excuse for deliberate BS.

Offline rdnzl999

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 9
Re: BALANCED POWER?? more snake oil or is there something to it??
« Reply #26 on: August 30, 2013, 10:13:37 pm »
Where's the BS? I posted my observation and comment on the TOPIC.

Then the trouble started.
 

Offline Bored@Work

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3932
  • Country: 00
Re: BALANCED POWER?? more snake oil or is there something to it??
« Reply #27 on: August 30, 2013, 10:16:51 pm »
I have not yet decided if it is actually entertaining watching an audiofool making a fool of himself, or if it is just another boring rerun of the clueless-trying-to-convince-us-of-snake-oil show, episode 2574.
I delete PMs unread. If you have something to say, say it in public.
For all else: Profile->[Modify Profile]Buddies/Ignore List->Edit Ignore List
 

Offline madires

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5499
  • Country: de
  • A qualified hobbyist ;)
Re: BALANCED POWER?? more snake oil or is there something to it??
« Reply #28 on: August 30, 2013, 10:24:33 pm »
I have not yet decided if it is actually entertaining watching an audiofool making a fool of himself, or if it is just another boring rerun of the clueless-trying-to-convince-us-of-snake-oil show, episode 2574.

Obviously you got an affection for simple switchers :-)
 

Offline rdnzl999

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 9
Re: BALANCED POWER?? more snake oil or is there something to it??
« Reply #29 on: August 30, 2013, 10:25:22 pm »
Here's my "audio fool" system.

 

Offline dfmischler

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 548
  • Country: us
Re: BALANCED POWER?? more snake oil or is there something to it??
« Reply #30 on: August 30, 2013, 10:30:22 pm »
Hey, is that an oscilloscope in the left rear corner?  Tell us about it  8)
 

Online Kjelt

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5969
  • Country: nl
Re: BALANCED POWER?? more snake oil or is there something to it??
« Reply #31 on: August 30, 2013, 10:47:28 pm »
Not to defend it because I don't have the knowledge about this but there seem to be some patents on this stuff one of which shows that the transformers are kinda special in a sense that they are  "bifilar wound" (see picture).

AC mains -> center-tapped isolation transformer, center tap grounded. Now the power is balanced about ground.
The whole (audiofool) idea behind this is also (if I got it right) is that they don't use the ground of the mains input on the secondary side but use a new (as they call it "clean") ground with it's own grounding pin (struck a lot of meters in the ground where even in dry summers the soil should be wet).
But I don't see the extra advantage over a normal isolation transformer with seperate ground in this case?

I try to keep an open mind, perhaps some transformer expert might shed some light on this.
 

Offline madires

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5499
  • Country: de
  • A qualified hobbyist ;)
Re: BALANCED POWER?? more snake oil or is there something to it??
« Reply #32 on: August 30, 2013, 11:03:54 pm »
Not to defend it because I don't have the knowledge about this but there seem to be some patents on this stuff one of which shows that the transformers are kinda special in a sense that they are  "bifilar wound" (see picture).

Bifilar winding in transformers reduces stray inductance and increases capacitive coupling. I'm surprised that such old technology gets patents granted.
 

Offline Rerouter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4645
  • Country: au
  • Question Everything... Except This Statement
Re: BALANCED POWER?? more snake oil or is there something to it??
« Reply #33 on: August 30, 2013, 11:06:11 pm »
A bit of searching makes it seem bifilar windings, are used to reduce the leakage inductance of a winding, with another page also claiming it shunted fast emf changes into heat via the second winding,

the first point is only really relevant to signal coupling transformers, though the second point and a physical separation of the transformer case from mains earth probably explain his sudden reduction in transformer hum :/

seriously dont trust me on any of this, it was just my own attempt to understand it  ^-^
 

Offline madires

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5499
  • Country: de
  • A qualified hobbyist ;)
Re: BALANCED POWER?? more snake oil or is there something to it??
« Reply #34 on: August 30, 2013, 11:28:12 pm »
Actually there are two ways of bifilar winding. The one we talked about is using two separated wires (primary and secondary). The other one is using one wire or two wires connected at the other end, like a bifilar wirewound resistor (to reduce inductance). The latter method used for a transformer would result in a resistor (wire resistance) because the current flows in contrary directions for both halves of the wire and therefore compensates itself.
 

Offline rdnzl999

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 9
Re: BALANCED POWER?? more snake oil or is there something to it??
« Reply #35 on: August 30, 2013, 11:51:54 pm »
Hey, is that an oscilloscope in the left rear corner?  Tell us about it  8)

Yes, it is. Nothing interesting, an analog 50mhz Instek O-653 just for poking around and bought cheap from some failed business liquidator. My old old 35mhz Leader developed unreliable rotary switches on one channel.
 

Online Monkeh

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6734
  • Country: gb
Re: BALANCED POWER?? more snake oil or is there something to it??
« Reply #36 on: August 31, 2013, 06:44:32 am »
I have nothing to prove to you.

Then why post here?

Quote
It's my system, my observation, my comment, my money. Go cry on somebody else's shoulder.

Cry about what? Doesn't hurt me that you're willing to believe there's a difference in sound quality after you put four figures into something, with no objective testing.
 

Offline Corporate666

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 2007
  • Country: us
  • Remember, you are unique, just like everybody else
Re: BALANCED POWER?? more snake oil or is there something to it??
« Reply #37 on: August 31, 2013, 08:20:28 am »
The original post asked "Is it snake oil?"

My answer (from my direct experience with the equipment) is "I think it is not."

What's wrong with that?

That sort of rationale might fly in religion forums where people have a conclusion in mind and work from there, but in a place like this, people are always going to be more data driven.

"balanced power eliminated mechanical hum, I prove it to myself and that's all that matters" is the same as "prayer cured my cancer.  I proved it to myself and that's all that matters".

It's your opinion, and that's fine - but it's not fact, and it's not data, and it's also probably not true  >:D  (not to say you don't think it is with all your heart).
It's not always the most popular person who gets the job done.
 

Offline rdnzl999

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 9
Re: BALANCED POWER?? more snake oil or is there something to it??
« Reply #38 on: August 31, 2013, 08:26:17 am »
"Then why post here?"

Once again, it was a reply to OhmSweetOhm's general query concerning whether balanced power in an audio system is "more snake oil" or not.

"Cry about what?"

Somebody you don't know makes a comment about something with which you apparently have no direct experience so you cry about "no objective testing".

It's my opinion that "there is something to it". Take it or leave it.

 

Offline rdnzl999

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 9
Re: BALANCED POWER?? more snake oil or is there something to it??
« Reply #39 on: August 31, 2013, 08:27:31 am »
Jeez, now you folks are calling me a liar.
 

Offline GeoffS

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 1267
  • Country: au
Re: BALANCED POWER?? more snake oil or is there something to it??
« Reply #40 on: August 31, 2013, 08:37:05 am »
No ones calling you a liar, they're just not willing to accept your assertions without some evidence.
By evidence, I mean measured, proven results rather than just a 'gut feel' 
 

Offline Corporate666

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 2007
  • Country: us
  • Remember, you are unique, just like everybody else
Re: BALANCED POWER?? more snake oil or is there something to it??
« Reply #41 on: August 31, 2013, 09:04:52 am »
Jeez, now you folks are calling me a liar.

Not at all.

I know a lot of guys who will change the oil in their car and will swear that it runs smoother, it's faster, and they can feel a noticeable performance improvement.  But you could take vibration and sound measurements and horsepower measurements and see no difference.  But it won't matter because they will "know" there is a difference.

It's the placebo effect and it's not imaginary, it's a very real thing.  There are a lot of people who will claim a higher end HDMI cable gave them a better picture, or crazy-expensive speaker cables made the sound better.  But they will say they "know" they achieved these benefits using equipment in a room that is so bad for sound that the differences they are talking about are orders of magnitude less than would even be detectable in that scenario.

Passion for one's hobbies is great, and feeling better about a result is great too.  But we're talking feelings, not facts.  Facts are measurable and measurement instruments are way more capable than the human eye or ear.
It's not always the most popular person who gets the job done.
 

Offline Redtailed

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 7
  • Country: us
Re: BALANCED POWER?? more snake oil or is there something to it??
« Reply #42 on: September 01, 2013, 06:23:46 am »
I know a lot of guys who will change the oil in their car and will swear that it runs smoother, it's faster, and they can feel a noticeable performance improvement.  But you could take vibration and sound measurements and horsepower measurements and see no difference.  But it won't matter because they will "know" there is a difference.

This deserves an upvote, if there were such mechanisms here.
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf