Author Topic: Discussion of possible constitution for new TEA threads  (Read 18408 times)

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Offline pcprogrammerTopic starter

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Discussion of possible constitution for new TEA threads
« on: September 01, 2022, 12:20:31 pm »
Might be premature, but just to open a discussion on what should be included if the move is made from the Test Equipment section to here.

A benefit I see from a move to this separate section is that there can also be multiple threads to discuss problems in the main thread and with that keep the main thread free of to much disturbance. This also is less intrusive on the forum in its whole.

As an example the mentioning of the latest talk about "OrCAD" being off topic, could then be handled with a "take it outside" pup analogy.

What I mean with this is, that when a contributor, visitor or moderator of the main thread feels something should go in a separate thread or that something is so far off topic or in violation with the general rules that they create a separate thread to discuss this, and put a single post in the main thread to invite the parties concerned to join in this new thread. The bouncers way of take it outside please.

A moderator can do the same when alerted by someone that there is a problem. Only as a last resort the moderator can start removing posts that do not belong. They do have final say. This is important to allow it to work.

The same also applies to the separate discussion threads of course, because they too should not get out of hand.

First and foremost it should be the members of the "community" that uphold the rules and keep themselves in check. So don't get angry when someone expresses to be upset by a posting or where the main thread is wondering of to.

It all of course stand and falls with the users will and ability to abide to this "constitution" and not resort to taunting the authorities.

Offline m k

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Re: Discussion of possible constitution for new TEA threads
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2022, 05:46:59 pm »
Lurker rights revoked.

No need to be nice but don't be not nice either, and don't get mad if contributors are expressing that your issue in hand must have its own thread.
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Offline pcprogrammerTopic starter

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Re: Discussion of possible constitution for new TEA threads
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2022, 06:52:54 pm »
Just be polite and keep it within reasonable bounds. No need for name calling, and when one feels the need, just take a timeout and think before making another post. Saves on a lot of aggravation. Be the bigger person  8)

Offline tggzzz

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Re: Discussion of possible constitution for new TEA threads
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2022, 08:41:48 pm »
If any "constitution" becomes part of  EEVBlog Forum, then the forum will have changed character for the worse.

If you introduce rules that will adjudicated, then you need both a police force and a judiciary, plus a means for voting on which rules to adopt and which to drop. Plus an adjudication mechanism. Plus all the other safeguards that go with a democratic civil society.

If you don't have those mechanisms, then it is a dictatorship. Currently it is demonstrably a benevolent dictatorship, because the owner/dictator doesn't want to be in control, and only exercise control reluctantly.

Someone that wants any such powers has demonstrated that they should not be entrusted with them.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline Specmaster

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Re: Discussion of possible constitution for new TEA threads
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2022, 01:13:28 am »
Just be polite and keep it within reasonable bounds. No need for name calling, and when one feels the need, just take a timeout and think before making another post. Saves on a lot of aggravation. Be the bigger person  8)
Or even better still, instead of reporting the OT chat, step up and post a request for it to cease or take it somewhere else, in the past that has worked well.
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Discussion of possible constitution for new TEA threads
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2022, 04:33:08 am »
If any "constitution" becomes part of  EEVBlog Forum, then the forum will have changed character for the worse.

The forum has worked just fine for 12 years now, no need to change it.
The existing rules cover it - no personal attacks, and community moderation by leading by example.
 
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Offline pcprogrammerTopic starter

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Re: Discussion of possible constitution for new TEA threads
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2022, 04:58:58 am »
Just be polite and keep it within reasonable bounds. No need for name calling, and when one feels the need, just take a timeout and think before making another post. Saves on a lot of aggravation. Be the bigger person  8)
Or even better still, instead of reporting the OT chat, step up and post a request for it to cease or take it somewhere else, in the past that has worked well.

Read the first post. It is the "take it outside" option I mentioned.

Offline pcprogrammerTopic starter

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Re: Discussion of possible constitution for new TEA threads
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2022, 05:33:10 am »
If any "constitution" becomes part of  EEVBlog Forum, then the forum will have changed character for the worse.

If you introduce rules that will adjudicated, then you need both a police force and a judiciary, plus a means for voting on which rules to adopt and which to drop. Plus an adjudication mechanism. Plus all the other safeguards that go with a democratic civil society.

If you don't have those mechanisms, then it is a dictatorship. Currently it is demonstrably a benevolent dictatorship, because the owner/dictator doesn't want to be in control, and only exercise control reluctantly.

Someone that wants any such powers has demonstrated that they should not be entrusted with them.

I could write "Oh get off your high horse", but then you would just come back at me that I should do the same.

The term constitution was mentioned in the other discussion thread and is maybe not suited. I like the idea though of having an additional set of rules to specify what is good behavior in case something becomes a problem.

And no I'm not advocating for a job to obtain power over others. I'm hoping that members here will obtain some more power over themselves, and refrain from snarky comments, and name calling.

If any "constitution" becomes part of  EEVBlog Forum, then the forum will have changed character for the worse.

The forum has worked just fine for 12 years now, no need to change it.
The existing rules cover it - no personal attacks, and community moderation by leading by example.

Yes the rules do state that, but current events show that things can get out of hand. And maybe having more clear and precise rules can help in preventing it from happening. But then still it stands and falls with the willingness of the members to play by those rules.

Take from it what you will.

Offline tggzzz

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Re: Discussion of possible constitution for new TEA threads
« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2022, 07:17:09 am »
If any "constitution" becomes part of  EEVBlog Forum, then the forum will have changed character for the worse.

The forum has worked just fine for 12 years now, no need to change it.
The existing rules cover it - no personal attacks, and community moderation by leading by example.

Precisely!
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: Discussion of possible constitution for new TEA threads
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2022, 07:18:26 am »
Just be polite and keep it within reasonable bounds. No need for name calling, and when one feels the need, just take a timeout and think before making another post. Saves on a lot of aggravation. Be the bigger person  8)
Or even better still, instead of reporting the OT chat, step up and post a request for it to cease or take it somewhere else, in the past that has worked well.

Read the first post. It is the "take it outside" option I mentioned.

I missed that.

One schism has already happened; I didn't conceive a second schism was being considered!
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: Discussion of possible constitution for new TEA threads
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2022, 07:25:26 am »
If any "constitution" becomes part of  EEVBlog Forum, then the forum will have changed character for the worse.

If you introduce rules that will adjudicated, then you need both a police force and a judiciary, plus a means for voting on which rules to adopt and which to drop. Plus an adjudication mechanism. Plus all the other safeguards that go with a democratic civil society.

If you don't have those mechanisms, then it is a dictatorship. Currently it is demonstrably a benevolent dictatorship, because the owner/dictator doesn't want to be in control, and only exercise control reluctantly.

Someone that wants any such powers has demonstrated that they should not be entrusted with them.

I could write "Oh get off your high horse", but then you would just come back at me that I should do the same.

Correct :)

Quote
The term constitution was mentioned in the other discussion thread and is maybe not suited. I like the idea though of having an additional set of rules to specify what is good behavior in case something becomes a problem.

And no I'm not advocating for a job to obtain power over others. I'm hoping that members here will obtain some more power over themselves, and refrain from snarky comments, and name calling.

I'm not presuming anybody is fishing for a job at the moment.

However, my outline does indicate what usually happens, sooner or later.

Quote
If any "constitution" becomes part of  EEVBlog Forum, then the forum will have changed character for the worse.

The forum has worked just fine for 12 years now, no need to change it.
The existing rules cover it - no personal attacks, and community moderation by leading by example.
Yes the rules do state that, but current events show that things can get out of hand. And maybe having more clear and precise rules can help in preventing it from happening. But then still it stands and falls with the willingness of the members to play by those rules.

Eventually you end up with barrack room lawyers arguing what is meant by the rules, which leads to....

To the extent allowed by the benevolent dictatorship here, that has happened here, e.g. is/isn't something OT. Fortunately it will not progress here.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline Specmaster

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Re: Discussion of possible constitution for new TEA threads
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2022, 09:02:35 am »
Just be polite and keep it within reasonable bounds. No need for name calling, and when one feels the need, just take a timeout and think before making another post. Saves on a lot of aggravation. Be the bigger person  8)
Its just a real shame that those that folk who were so annoyed by the content of postings didn't put that into practise before managing to rip the heart out of the thriving community, which even with the so-called annoying OT posts, still managed to grow into the most active thread on the forum. So it clearly was the jewel in the crown. Sadly though, the minority have ruined it for the majority and will no doubt be looking for their next victim before long.

Why is that it seems to be the growing trend these days to destroy the good things in life, I'm afraid to say it but take a look around the World and there are many examples where that is played out for real with real dire consequences for the normal people.
Who let Murphy in?

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Offline pcprogrammerTopic starter

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Re: Discussion of possible constitution for new TEA threads
« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2022, 10:03:49 am »
Yes, it is a real shame that some feel the need to destroy what others have. Best to guard ourselves from it by being the bigger persons. I know it is hard at times, but it sometimes helps things to calm down.

And just don't ass about it if some like to see something moved to a separate thread. For the discussion at hand, for me at least, it makes no difference in which thread it sits. People with interest can participate, and when someone really wants to disrupt things there is always the help of moderators, of which I like to think they can work both ways. Protect the group from ones out to make trouble, but also stand up for the ones who do not feel up to complaining themselves.

But society is made up of lots of different people and unfortunately human nature often gets in the way of peace.

Offline m k

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Re: Discussion of possible constitution for new TEA threads
« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2022, 10:09:39 am »
If any "constitution" becomes part of  EEVBlog Forum, then the forum will have changed character for the worse.

The forum has worked just fine for 12 years now, no need to change it.
The existing rules cover it - no personal attacks, and community moderation by leading by example.

Community moderation is proved to be problematic.
Same with silent reporting.

Silent reporting can't change, that's a given.
So reactions are the only possibility.

Can a forum section be taken out of updating recent messages?
If a thread is flooding, say with off topics, and the flood is taken out to somewhere else, it's still flooding.
The biggest on topic and before any moves flood here is assumed to be a small one.

I'm trying to figure out why non participants have a need to report.
Malice action is one thing and I don't like something in it another but what else.
Only thing I can think of is that the thread is disturbing their use of the forum somehow.

Have levels of moderation actions been in question somewhere?
I'd say that deleting a lengthy post is on the top.
It's like I have the power and your effort means nothing.
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Offline Specmaster

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Re: Discussion of possible constitution for new TEA threads
« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2022, 10:56:34 am »

<snip>
I'm trying to figure out why non participants have a need to report.
Malice action is one thing and I don't like something in it another but what else.
Only thing I can think of is that the thread is disturbing their use of the forum somehow.
<snip>


If it is non participants in the main doing the reporting, then the first thing I'd do if I had the power of a moderator is to check out their previous history, that way maybe a pattern might emerge and shows that wherever trouble has been in the past, they were involved in it in some form and their motives for reporting then become questionable.

There are people around who are, putting it bluntly, just killjoys
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Offline pcprogrammerTopic starter

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Re: Discussion of possible constitution for new TEA threads
« Reply #15 on: September 02, 2022, 11:21:57 am »
I was just thinking about what you pointed out. Is it easy for moderators to see if someone has posted in a thread and also the frequency of posting in it over time.

Because, if it is someone that is heavily involved in a thread, I think a moderator should put more effort in resolving an issue. If it is just someone watching a thread, who took offense of something in that thread, I would say, just ignore the complaint and tell the complainer to put the thread in its ignore list. Only if it is in heavy violation of the general rules resort to removal.

And I believe the moderators do handle complaints more or less this way,

I myself have been advised to pass complaints down to moderators instead of personally engage because of possible fallout. https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/forum-rules-changed-how-to-deal-with-it/msg4371379/#msg4371379

Still believe, in the given situation of the TEA thread, that addressing the issue with a post is the better way, when you are involved in the thread. And when not involved then just let it go.

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Discussion of possible constitution for new TEA threads
« Reply #16 on: September 03, 2022, 09:22:55 am »
Can a forum section be taken out of updating recent messages?

Yes, and I have mentioned this several times.
If you don't like and entire board there is an Ignore Board feature.
If you don't like a particual thread there is an Ignore Topic feature
if you don't like a particular user there is an Ignore user feature.

Go to your profile and look on the left side bar:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/profile
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Discussion of possible constitution for new TEA threads
« Reply #17 on: September 03, 2022, 09:26:28 am »
I was just thinking about what you pointed out. Is it easy for moderators to see if someone has posted in a thread and also the frequency of posting in it over time.

We can see post history, but it's chonological, so not easy see if someone posted in a thread.
We get stats on which boards they have posted in the most and spend their time in the most, but not threads. So we just see the Test Equipment board for eample.
 

Offline pcprogrammerTopic starter

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Re: Discussion of possible constitution for new TEA threads
« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2022, 10:10:51 am »
That makes it a bit more difficult to asses a claim, but I still rather have someone impartial and not involved to investigate a complaint then someone who is a regular contributor and might have partial thoughts about the matter.

But by the looks of it this is all moot now things have moved on 8)

Offline m k

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Re: Discussion of possible constitution for new TEA threads
« Reply #19 on: September 03, 2022, 10:28:18 am »
Can a forum section be taken out of updating recent messages?

Yes, and I have mentioned this several times.
If you don't like and entire board there is an Ignore Board feature.
If you don't like a particual thread there is an Ignore Topic feature
if you don't like a particular user there is an Ignore user feature.

Go to your profile and look on the left side bar:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/profile

Yes, you have.
(click Profile and then Modify Profile is above the Summary)

I wasn't clear enough.
Can it be done at the forum level?
I think I've not seen any Supporters Lounge activity anywhere.

Maybe new member could have a predefined set of excluded parts where for example TEA is ticked out.
No idea how that change notifications but then at least general irritation should be minimal.
This since part of the community is obviously not moderating its self and it is not going to change, it may even worsen in the future.
Report button is also always close and other stuff sort of far away.
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Discussion of possible constitution for new TEA threads
« Reply #20 on: September 03, 2022, 10:41:24 am »
I wasn't clear enough.
Can it be done at the forum level?
I think I've not seen any Supporters Lounge activity anywhere.
Maybe new member could have a predefined set of excluded parts where for example TEA is ticked out.

Boards can be excluded from membership levels, but not threads AFAIK. That's how the Supporters section works.

I think reporting can also be limited to membership levels, but it's newbies that have been doing the reporting. Even some of the people who have left are amoung the ones who have reported things.
 

Offline m k

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Re: Discussion of possible constitution for new TEA threads
« Reply #21 on: September 03, 2022, 02:20:25 pm »
That makes it a bit more difficult to asses a claim, but I still rather have someone impartial and not involved to investigate a complaint then someone who is a regular contributor and might have partial thoughts about the matter.

But by the looks of it this is all moot now things have moved on 8)

Moot is it not.
Better be ready before the next time.

Not involved is what happened here.
Regular can still be objective, if that was a concern.

Moderation and cleaning are two different things.
Nobody has any issues with cleaning, specially if somebody else is doing it.
Not cleaning may rice some eyebrows every now and then but problem it wont be before trash and treasure becomes a part of it.

I wasn't in the center of the storm but my guess is that the beginning of it was not the end of the world, it was something else.
That something else must be avoided in the future.
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Offline m k

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Re: Discussion of possible constitution for new TEA threads
« Reply #22 on: September 03, 2022, 02:22:52 pm »
I wasn't clear enough.
Can it be done at the forum level?
I think I've not seen any Supporters Lounge activity anywhere.
Maybe new member could have a predefined set of excluded parts where for example TEA is ticked out.

Boards can be excluded from membership levels, but not threads AFAIK. That's how the Supporters section works.

I think reporting can also be limited to membership levels, but it's newbies that have been doing the reporting. Even some of the people who have left are amoung the ones who have reported things.

So easiest would be to move TEA thread to TEA section and run through the whole user base a permanent TEA section ignore script.
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Offline pcprogrammerTopic starter

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Re: Discussion of possible constitution for new TEA threads
« Reply #23 on: September 03, 2022, 04:37:15 pm »
I opted for a vote, in the "discussion of the TEA thread" thread, about moving it to this section, but no one instantiated one, and several posters in that thread expressed their sentiment to keep it where it is.

The current users seem happy with how it is now, and time will tell if it is going to be a problem again or not.

Offline Specmaster

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Re: Discussion of possible constitution for new TEA threads
« Reply #24 on: September 05, 2022, 05:54:14 pm »
Well its kind of beginning to look like people are getting fed of walking on eggshells all the time for fear of upsetting the natives here and people are remaining largely in their own camps and that is a real pity that there is not any more attempts at bridge building going to try to bury the hatchet and entice the founder members back.  :palm:
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