EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
Products => Test Equipment => Topic started by: Hugoneus on October 16, 2014, 06:06:57 pm
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In this episode Shahriar reviews the new Keithley 2450 Source Measure Unit (SMU). This model, which is the successor to the widely adopted Keithley 2400, offers performance improvements as well as a brand new interface platform with multi-point touch screen.
The review demonstrated the instruments GUI, scripting capabilities through the TSP interface and various performance parameters. Furthermore the scripting features are used to measure super capacitor capacity, the performance of a wireless charging system, characterization of optoelectronic components and semiconductor elements.
You can watch the video here: [1 Hour & 10 Minutes]
http://youtu.be/fs9WsTKOMmo (http://youtu.be/fs9WsTKOMmo)
More videos at The Signal Path:
http://www.TheSignalPath.com (http://www.TheSignalPath.com)
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Thanks for another superb review and reassurance, good things come in pairs!
Due to guys like you, Dave and robrenz (and maybe the current 10% promotion at Keithley), I placed an order for the 2450 last week. I was hoping you'd tear it down so I didn't have too, :-DD
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Thanks for another superb review and reassurance, good things come in pairs!
Due to guys like you, Dave and robrenz (and maybe the current 10% promotion at Keithley), I placed an order for the 2450 last week. I was hoping you'd tear it down so I didn't have too, :-DD
Thanks!
Maybe in a different video. These are both recently calibrated units. :)
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Big fan of Hugoneus here,
I got a Keithley 220 after watching his epic video..
Now I am at work and I can not watch it. I can´t wait.
If you love the EEVBlog and you are not subsribed to the Signalpath channel then something is wrong with you, go to the doctor (or check if your internal power supply is working...).
I just love that channel as much as the EEVBlog one.
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Big fan of Hugoneus here,
I got a Keithley 220 after watching his epic video..
Now I am at work and I can not watch it. I can´t wait.
If you love the EEVBlog and you are not subsribed to the Signalpath channel then something is wrong with you, go to the doctor (or check if your internal power supply is working...).
I just love that channel as much as the EEVBlog one.
Thanks! :) I am glad you are enjoying them.
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Nice video Hugoneus :-+
Your review has more views in one day than my 2450 review has in 10 months :'(
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Get a cat and a bottle of wine, Robrenz. ;)
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Get a cat and a bottle of wine, Robrenz. ;)
Haha... Yup!
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It also could have to do with the fact that Shahriar's electronic knowledge compared to mine is orders of magnitude greater than the 300:1 video view ratio. ;D
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Due to guys like you, Dave and robrenz (and maybe the current 10% promotion at Keithley), I placed an order for the 2450 last week.
For your own use? :o
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Your review has more views in one day than my 2450 review has in 10 months :'(
When you own a 2450, the winner is, you!
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Due to guys like you, Dave and robrenz (and maybe the current 10% promotion at Keithley), I placed an order for the 2450 last week.
For your own use? :o
Me, myself and I, ;D
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Great video as always! I really like the well-prepared experiments.
One thought about the TSP stuff: At first sight it seems like their TSP language is a completely custom job. I'm wondering why they reinvented the wheel and didn't adopt something common like Python or Javascript.
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One thought about the TSP stuff: At first sight it seems like their TSP language is a completely custom job. I'm wondering why they reinvented the wheel and didn't adopt something common like Python or Javascript.
NIH of course. Irritatingly enough, everybody seems to do it.
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Get a cat and a bottle of wine, Robrenz. ;)
Haha... Yup!
Nothing like a stack of awesome test gear without the leads plugged in and topped with a Cat.. :-DD
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Due to guys like you, Dave and robrenz (and maybe the current 10% promotion at Keithley), I placed an order for the 2450 last week.
For your own use? :o
Me, myself and I, ;D
I want two! One to check the other to make sure it isn't telling me a story.
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I want two! One to check the other to make sure it isn't telling me a story.
Oh yes, the never ending cycle of suspicious instruments!
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If you have one multimeter you either trust the readings implicitly or not. With more than one you are always in doubt.
then again I still have a $1 multimeter that I use every so often, as it is a perfect method to test cells for charge state. Can measure open circuit voltage and load it with a current to see internal resistance.
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Due to guys like you, Dave and robrenz (and maybe the current 10% promotion at Keithley), I placed an order for the 2450 last week.
For your own use? :o
Me, myself and I, ;D
I want two! One to check the other to make sure it isn't telling me a story.
If they don't agree, how do you know which is correct? Better get a third.
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This is why you have standards in a workshop/lab. A voltage standard is a good start but when you add some 0.01% resistors you can verify both the ohms and mA ranges. Now you add either a GPS or Rubidium locked frequency reference and you can verify your measurement of both time and frequency.
As for the 2450, it could replace at least two of my instruments and maybe a third. Can it operate as an electronic dummy load? I think yes but I am not so sure.
Oh yes, and hello from another cat person, we have two.
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Can it operate as an electronic dummy load? I think yes but I am not so sure.
Yes, but can only sink 1-Amp.
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Can it operate as an electronic dummy load? I think yes but I am not so sure.
Yes, but can only sink 1-Amp.
Yes, true. This would be more of a precision load. Also remember that this instrument can jump from any I/V quadrant to any other.
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precision load.
I'm pushing it here, but, O0
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Thanks for a nice review again.
Now it is difficult to decide between the Keithley or the Keysight Source Meter.
But both are so expensive!
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The Agilent does have a few higher capacities in certain areas especially pulse mode and AWG like features. But My 2450 spec review (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keithley-2450-sourcemeter-review/msg368281/#msg368281) has the comparable Agilent in it. The Keithley wins on accuracy specs in almost every area.
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The Agilent does have a few higher capacities in certain areas especially pulse mode and AWG like features. But My 2450 spec review (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keithley-2450-sourcemeter-review/msg368281/#msg368281) has the comparable Agilent in it. The Keithley wins on accuracy specs in almost every area.
Also the scripting really sets it apart. Agilent should have implemented it long ago.
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Also the scripting really sets it apart. Agilent should have implemented it long ago.
The Agilent is essentially designed to be built into custom test fixtures from scratch. Hence no easy in-built scripting or even decent easy to use PC software with pre-written basic testing stuff.
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I am glad to have waited with the Agilent purchase for a long time now.
Thanks again for your great review and comments, I will have a closer look in to the Keithley 2450 and will be ordering one soon.
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I will have a closer look in to the Keithley 2450 and will be ordering one soon.
They are currently offering 10% off, not sure when the promotion ends however.
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I will have a closer look in to the Keithley 2450 and will be ordering one soon.
They are currently offering 10% off, not sure when the promotion ends however.
It seems like a US promotion only, I can not find anything in regards to that on the German Keithley site.
Well, I requested a quote from them, will see what they offer.
Thanks for letting me know about the 10% off
EDIT:
I just received a quote from Keithley Germany (On a Sunday)
They want Euro 4660 +19% VAT
No word of the 10% off promotion.
Hmmm... I will give them a call tomorrow
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Another great video. Keep up the good work! :-+
I've been meaning to ask you, Hugoneus, what happened to the intro video clip? Ever since linear vs. nonlinear circuits video you have been using a recording of that clip from your computer screen. Did you accidentally delete the original?
I took the liberty of cutting the intro out of one of your older videos. You can find it here (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/83931615/SignalPath_intro.avi), if you want to use it in future videos.
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Another great video. Keep up the good work! :-+
I've been meaning to ask you, Hugoneus, what happened to the intro video clip? Ever since linear vs. nonlinear circuits video you have been using a recording of that clip from your computer screen. Did you accidentally delete the original?
I took the liberty of cutting the intro out of one of your older videos. You can find it here (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/83931615/SignalPath_intro.avi), if you want to use it in future videos.
Thanks a lot. My current editing/recording setup is not very good. I want to upgrade my recording equipment... Have to save some cash! :)
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Shahriar,
May I ask you to upload the script for testing the Super Capacitor?
Thanks so much
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Figures, right after I buy a 2450, out comes the 2460 (http://www.keithley.com/news/prod110514).
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Figures, right after I buy a 2450, out comes the 2460 (http://www.keithley.com/news/prod110514).
Same here,
But I think the 2460 is a little different.
May be good to have both.
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Can it operate as an electronic dummy load? I think yes but I am not so sure.
Yes, but can only sink 1-Amp.
The newly announced 2460 has the same touchscreen interface and can do up to 7A source/sink, Vsource to 105V (100W max):
http://www.keithley.com/products/dcac/currentvoltage/touchscreensmu/?mn=2460 (http://www.keithley.com/products/dcac/currentvoltage/touchscreensmu/?mn=2460)
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Figures, right after I buy a 2450, out comes the 2460 (http://www.keithley.com/news/prod110514).
Same here,
But I think the 2460 is a little different.
May be good to have both.
The 2460 essentially moved the dynamic range of the 2450 one decade up. So its sensitivity is not as much, but it can sink much higher currents. If you don't ever need 7A, then the 2450 will work just as well.
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So its sensitivity is not as much
:phew:
I hadn't reviewed the specs yet, but that makes me feel better! I'm much more interested in low measurements, although I admit on occasion > 1 amp is definitely useful.
I do have some large lead acid batteries to charge every now and then, :-DD
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Just got my 2450 SMU and played around with it today.
It is kind of an amazing machine and I am very happy that I got this one and not the Agilent SMU
Thanks again for your great review.
Here in the attached picture, I am measuring a precision 0.0001 Ohm resistor with exactly 1 A current.
What a result and soooo simple to setup and reliable results with such a precision and accuracy.
I am very happy with it.
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I am very happy with it.
Yeah, but it gets worse actually. I now have the strange desire to trace random diodes, plot and print, organize accordingly. :scared:
:twitch: :twitch:
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Yeah, but it gets worse actually. I now have the strange desire to trace random diodes, plot and print, organize accordingly. :scared:
:twitch: :twitch:
Yes, tell me about it....
It opens completely new doors to measurements for all kinds of applications.
I needed to measure some large-wire inductors for DC resistance and this SMU is the first
instrument that can do it for me with such a precision. And this is just the beginning.
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Yeah, but it gets worse actually. I now have the strange desire to trace random diodes, plot and print, organize accordingly. :scared:
:twitch: :twitch:
Yes, tell me about it....
It opens completely new doors to measurements for all kinds of applications.
I needed to measure some large-wire inductors for DC resistance and this SMU is the first
instrument that can do it for me with such a precision. And this is just the beginning.
Congratulations! :)
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Just got my 2450 SMU and played around with it today.
It is kind of an amazing machine and I am very happy that I got this one and not the Agilent SMU
Thanks again for your great review.
Here in the attached picture, I am measuring a precision 0.0001 Ohm resistor with exactly 1 A current.
What a result and soooo simple to setup and reliable results with such a precision and accuracy.
I am very happy with it.
I love my 2450 also :-+ but at 0.0001 ohms the max error could be +/-150% of reading which is 20 times more accurate than the Fluke 8846A max error at +/-3000% of reading, but 37 times worse than the IET LOM 510A Micro Ohmeter
at +/-4% of reading.
EDIT: Notice how small the actual error is on the chart below this one.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keithley-2450-sourcemeter-review/?action=dlattach;attach=76772;image)
Based on the LOM 510A having no error the 2450 only had 3.4% of reading error at the .0001 value so pretty good :-+
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keithley-2450-sourcemeter-review/?action=dlattach;attach=76776;image)
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I love my 2450 also :-+ but at 0.0001 ohms the max error could be +/-150% of reading which is 20 times more accurate than the Fluke 8846A max error at +/-3000% of reading, but 37 times worse than the IET LOM 510A Micro Ohmeter
at +/-4% of reading.
EDIT: Notice how small the actual error is on the chart below this one.
Based on the LOM 510A having no error the 2450 only had 3.4% of reading error at the .0001 value so pretty good :-+
Robrenz,
Thanks for your detailed charts and the info on the LOM-510A
I also looked at the Agilent 34420A Micro Ohm meter and a few others.
But for this application, I needed have a 1A current to measure the resistance, to see any low resistance problems at this current. In the past I just sent a 1A current from a PSU and then used the 34401A to measure the voltage drop.
Having it all in one 2450 SMU is just amazing!
I should look at the datasheets of these micro Ohm meters, but I doubt that they are delivering 1 A current to the DUT but may be I am wrong. I just saw that you have a video on the LOM-510A and I will have a look at it. Thanks for that.
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The 34420A uses a max current of 10mA on the 1 ohm range and is more accurate than the LOM 510A. But the LOM 510A uses 1A for the 20 mOhm range. I have a second LOM 510A, if you are interested send me a PM.
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Keithley has a white paper on combining the 2182 and 2400 to make low level resistance measurements.
www.keithley.com/data?asset=4644 (http://www.keithley.com/data?asset=4644)
I do not know if you can trigger the 2450 the same as the 2400, but it would be interesting to see if you can get improved accuracy using a 2182/A
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Thanks for a nice review again.
Now it is difficult to decide between the Keithley or the Keysight Source Meter.
But both are so expensive!
I don't know if you've gone ahead with a purchase yet, but the Keysight seems a lot better than the Keithley. I've found an alarming number of firmware bugs on the 2450, although the majority of them are to do with the inbuilt plotting feature where it just gets the axes completely wrong. I was drawing 93.43GW apparently...
The major flaw I've found with the 2450 is autoranging when set to source voltage and measure current. If you have a device in low current mode that occasionally blips a bit of current (we're drawing 0.9mA with pulses of 12mA), the voltage drops out as it switches range for as much as 100ms causing the DUT to reset. I can understand the current range reading O.L. while switching range, but IMO if you are sourcing voltage, the voltage should ALWAYS remain constant. The Keysight doesn't do this.
edit: Duh! Sorry I saw your more recent post. |O
I'd be interested if anyone else finds the button to turn on/off the output a bit dodgy? Mine seems to need quite a lot of force for it to operate. I might send this back for a Keysight.
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Result of the SMU not being able to decide which current range to choose - load is a 60mm 12V fan:
(http://sdgelectronics.co.uk/images/eev/smuFAIL.jpg)
If you choose the range yourself, it correctly sources 12V. Firmware 1.2.0f
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Thanks for a nice review again.
Now it is difficult to decide between the Keithley or the Keysight Source Meter.
But both are so expensive!
I don't know if you've gone ahead with a purchase yet, but the Keysight seems a lot better than the Keithley. I've found an alarming number of firmware bugs on the 2450, although the majority of them are to do with the inbuilt plotting feature where it just gets the axes completely wrong. I was drawing 93.43GW apparently...
The major flaw I've found with the 2450 is autoranging when set to source voltage and measure current. If you have a device in low current mode that occasionally blips a bit of current (we're drawing 0.9mA with pulses of 12mA), the voltage drops out as it switches range for as much as 100ms causing the DUT to reset. I can understand the current range reading O.L. while switching range, but IMO if you are sourcing voltage, the voltage should ALWAYS remain constant. The Keysight doesn't do this.
edit: Duh! Sorry I saw your more recent post. |O
I'd be interested if anyone else finds the button to turn on/off the output a bit dodgy? Mine seems to need quite a lot of force for it to operate. I might send this back for a second Keysight.
I have the 2450 in use almost every day.
So far I really like it and have no complains whatsoever.
The turn on / off button also works good on my unit and no complains there either.
"for a second Keysight"?
Does this mean you already have one Keysight SMU?
Which one?
What do you like better about that one in comparison?
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I am trying to replicate your issue on my 2450, so far I have not been able to. I'll let you know.
One of the strengths of the 2450 is the scripting. I have recommended Keysight to implement these features, but the team which works on their SMU is apparently in Japan and they have not decided to do this yet.
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I've run into many bugs myself. Navigating the trends, log files, output button hard locking energized.
I've had to power cycle the unit dozens of times to recover.
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I've run into many bugs myself. Navigating the trends, log files, output button hard locking energized.
I've had to power cycle the unit dozens of times to recover.
Did you install the latest firmware?
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I experienced the auto-range issue when using the 2450 to power a small RC receiver for some tests. The receiver was resetting over and over as the 2450 was auto-ranging (set up as a fixed voltage source measuring current). All was well when I set the current range manually.
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Ok, I replicated the problem. I will contact the engineer at Keithley and see what they say. I will report back.
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Ok, I replicated the problem. I will contact the engineer at Keithley and see what they say. I will report back.
Great, I've contacted ours in the UK too to see what they say.
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Did you install the latest firmware?
Oooooo, thank you, I'd not checked in a couple weeks, glad to see they squeaked this out: :-+
Latest version = 2450_v1_2_0f
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Did anyone get a response from Keithley on the ranging issue?
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Sure wish one could subscribe to firmware updates!
Anyhow, version v1.3.0s is out.
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I will be loading the new firmware shortly. It adds a lot of very nice features which make it more identical to the 7510 DMM on the graphing features. I will do a video of the improvements.
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I will be loading the new firmware shortly. It adds a lot of very nice features which make it more identical to the 7510 DMM on the graphing features. I will do a video of the improvements.
Ya, loaded this morning, a VERY nice upgrade, still playing around. I'm very pleased that Keithley is dedicated to continuous improvement, I bet we still have lots to come. Perhaps even the FFT that Shahriar mentioned in the 7510 review.
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Ya, loaded this morning, a VERY nice upgrade, still playing around. I'm very pleased that Keithley is dedicated to continuous improvement, I bet we still have lots to come. Perhaps even the FFT that Shahriar mentioned in the 7510 review.
I also updated the FW on my 2450 a couple weeks ago and was very much impressed by the features and the new handling capabilities. It seems like Keithley is putting great effort in to the feature updating in new FW releases.
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Firmware bump, 1.5g is out for both the 2450 and 7510.
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Firmware bump, 1.5g is out for both the 2450 and 7510.
Thanks for the info.
It looks like a long list of corrections:
http://www.tek.com/sites/tek.com/files/media/media/resources/2450-Release-Notes.pdf (http://www.tek.com/sites/tek.com/files/media/media/resources/2450-Release-Notes.pdf)
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Thumbs up for effort, but I cannot help myself to ask "why?". :-//
K2450 already have proper triax ports for properly guarded connections. I'd be also concerned with thermal issues with so much metal at the meter inputs.
If your DUT measurement results affected enough that you need shielding, it would make better results from properly guarded wiring as well.
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Looking forward to your measurement results.
What is your plan? What do you want to measure like this ?