Author Topic: 12 bit Keysight... when?  (Read 22454 times)

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Offline jashuganTopic starter

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12 bit Keysight... when?
« on: December 22, 2023, 10:59:07 am »
Hello,
I see now almost every manufacturer has its line of 12 bit oscilloscope: Lecroy, Tektronix, Rigol, Siglent, R&S... But what about Keysight? Any news about a new oscilloscope from Keysight? I own a wonderful DSOX3054T, and I'm enthusiastic about it, but I'd like to have 12 bit (and a lot more memory).
 
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Offline H.O

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Re: 12 bit Keysight... when?
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2023, 11:07:37 am »
Keysight products are - as they say themselves -  'intended for professional and industrial use only'.
I guess Keysight thinks that professionals can do with 8bits what everybody else needs 12 for... 8)
 

Online coromonadalix

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Re: 12 bit Keysight... when?
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2023, 12:52:34 pm »
Forget Keysight   :--
 

Offline jashuganTopic starter

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Re: 12 bit Keysight... when?
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2023, 02:44:55 pm »
 

Offline Sighound36

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Re: 12 bit Keysight... when?
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2023, 03:13:29 pm »
When it does happen it will rushed through as the bean counters will wish for instant payback on their skimped investiment, it will BIG, loud and take forever to boot up. Think of the wannebe muscle car mentality form the 70's. Think a 12 bit version of the the MXR, wonder where that went?

Plus we will get a Danny Bogdanoff 2 month lead on with video teasers on how good the the testing in the envirnomental chamber will be on this new scope.
Thing is currently they are dumping a lot of their UXR style stock at 50 points off, so sales are quite brisk one would suspect  >:D :-DD
Seeking quality measurement equipment at realistic cost with proper service backup. If you pay peanuts you employ monkeys.
 
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Offline jashuganTopic starter

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Re: 12 bit Keysight... when?
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2023, 04:25:09 pm »
 

Offline Dan_8123

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Re: 12 bit Keysight... when?
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2023, 05:08:38 pm »
Just had that discussion with my Keysight dealer yesterday because I want to upgrade my current 3000A scope. He suggested the 4000A and when I mentioned that I'm more interested in something like the R&S MXO 4 or the newly released Tek 4 Series B (much more responsive UI than the old one) he said their only option was an EXR which costs at least twice as much, probably 3 times once you add the software packages.

I'd love to stay with Keysight but their lower-end offerings just don't seem to keep up with the competition and no change in sight. He did mention on the phone that there will be a refresh of the 4000A sometime next year but couldn't give any more details than it being more of a software than hardware change. Maybe a G version?  :-// Doesn't sound like there's going to be a 10 or 12-bit version or modern UI any day soon  :(
 
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Offline CosteC

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Re: 12 bit Keysight... when?
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2023, 05:58:48 pm »
I am under impression Keysight invests in top tier oscilloscopes and does not care about Siglent or Rigol. LeCroy seems to do similarly, just shamelessly rebrands Siglent for low end models.

Btw Keysight scopes have hi-res modes. Maybe it is enough for thier customers so far?
 
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Offline mkissin

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Re: 12 bit Keysight... when?
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2023, 08:50:45 pm »
A large part of the problem with switching scope vendors is that they all use different proprietary probe interfaces.
You can very easily end up with more value in your probes than the scope itself, which means switching vendors is hugely expensive.
 
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Offline CosteC

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Re: 12 bit Keysight... when?
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2023, 10:03:23 pm »
A large part of the problem with switching scope vendors is that they all use different proprietary probe interfaces.
You can very easily end up with more value in your probes than the scope itself, which means switching vendors is hugely expensive.
Some vendors use different interfaces between series of scopes, which makes situation particularly frustrating.
Same story is with DSLRs.
BTW aren't fastest Keysight scopes using 10 bit ADCs?
 

Online tszaboo

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Re: 12 bit Keysight... when?
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2023, 10:15:33 pm »
I am under impression Keysight invests in top tier oscilloscopes and does not care about Siglent or Rigol. LeCroy seems to do similarly, just shamelessly rebrands Siglent for low end models.

Btw Keysight scopes have hi-res modes. Maybe it is enough for thier customers so far?
Why would you care about making 10-30% on a scope for 2000 EUR, when you can sell active probes for 90%+ profit for 10 times as much? They might be making as much profit on one probe than Siglent on 100 sold scopes.
 

Offline Someone

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Re: 12 bit Keysight... when?
« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2023, 10:29:18 pm »
BTW aren't fastest Keysight scopes using 10 bit ADCs?
S-series and UXR/MXR are but are $-$-$-$. Things like ENOB or noise are comparable to other 12bit ADCs but extra bits can still be useful.
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: 12 bit Keysight... when?
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2023, 10:58:09 pm »
and take forever to boot up.
I'm way more interested in UI responsiveness than boot time - HP/Agilent/Keysight has always been the leader in this respect. Give me the MSOX's UI speed over the RTB/RTM's speedy boot but but horribly slow UI any day
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Offline Martin72

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Re: 12 bit Keysight... when?
« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2023, 11:03:07 pm »
I am under impression Keysight invests in top tier oscilloscopes and does not care about Siglent or Rigol.

We have a saying here which goes like this:
What does the oak tree care if a pig rubs against it... ;)
Keysight has had a completely different clientele for decades.
If you're still making enough money with it today, why bother with low-end products?

Quote
LeCroy seems to do similarly, just shamelessly rebrands Siglent for low end models.

What do you mean by shameless? In my opinion, it's a kind of concession to have something like this on the shelf in case someone asks for it. ;)
They don't make any money out of it.
At the moment Lecroy, Keysight, Tektronix have nothing to worry about
They have nothing to fear from Rigol, it's a different story with Siglent, but it will be some time before they become a serious competitor, in the sense of poaching customers, not in terms of technology, which is already not of bad parentage.
R&S, on the other hand, are doing a clever job with their portfolio.
They are already a bit further ahead than the other "big" providers.
 
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Offline PELL

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Re: 12 bit Keysight... when?
« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2023, 02:15:03 am »
I guess because they have the best 10-bit ADC converter on the market.

The important thing about a scope resolution is the "Effect Number Of Bits" or "ENOB".

Many 12bits scope only has around 6~8bits of ENOB (depending on bandwidth and sample rate), while Keysight can easily reach this number with their 10bit ADC. One of my main guesses they actually design a 12bit ADC, but only say "it is 10bit" when marketing.

Surely one day they will reach 12bit, but I don't think they will announce before they polish enough.
 

Offline David Hess

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Re: 12 bit Keysight... when?
« Reply #16 on: December 23, 2023, 03:24:51 am »
I can think of a couple of reasons that they would not support 12 bits.

HP/Agilent/Keysight seems to have held onto their old Megazoom ASICs for a long time.  Do they support 12-bit acquisition records?

Except for dynamic range, much of the advantage of a good 12 bit digitizer is lost unless the linearity and settling time of the analog signal conditioning can support it.  That is a very tall order, and the only oscilloscopes that I have ever seen which did it are sampling oscilloscopes, but they cheat.

It should be good for the noise level of FFTs, but check out the spurious free dynamic range.

Btw Keysight scopes have hi-res modes. Maybe it is enough for thier customers so far?

Does Megazoom work with hi-res mode?
 

Offline BillyO

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Re: 12 bit Keysight... when?
« Reply #17 on: December 23, 2023, 03:57:24 am »
HP/Agilent/Keysight

There FTFY, Agilent and Keysight have little more than unfortunate history in common with HP.  HP was quite possibly the best company ever, whereas those other two are, well, not.
Bill  (Currently a Siglent fanboy)
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Offline Someone

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Re: 12 bit Keysight... when?
« Reply #18 on: December 23, 2023, 04:47:59 am »
HP/Agilent/Keysight seems to have held onto their old Megazoom ASICs for a long time.  Do they support 12-bit acquisition records?
Btw Keysight scopes have hi-res modes. Maybe it is enough for thier customers so far?
Does Megazoom work with hi-res mode?
Yes and yes.
 

Offline Martin72

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Re: 12 bit Keysight... when?
« Reply #19 on: December 23, 2023, 05:35:26 pm »
I guess because they have the best 10-bit ADC converter on the market.

The important thing about a scope resolution is the "Effect Number Of Bits" or "ENOB".

Many 12bits scope only has around 6~8bits of ENOB (depending on bandwidth and sample rate), while Keysight can easily reach this number with their 10bit ADC. One of my main guesses they actually design a 12bit ADC, but only say "it is 10bit" when marketing.

Surely one day they will reach 12bit, but I don't think they will announce before they polish enough.

The Keysight 10bit converter is not bad - or it is generally hardly "better"...


Edit: Not in the picture: Siglent SDS7000 H12:  7.5bits (3Ghz), 7.3Bits (4Ghz)
Siglent SDS2000X HD: 8.7bits/8.4bits(100/350Mhz)
« Last Edit: December 23, 2023, 05:39:08 pm by Martin72 »
 
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Offline CosteC

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Re: 12 bit Keysight... when?
« Reply #20 on: December 24, 2023, 02:01:46 pm »
Keysight 10 bit indeed does not offer anything inferior to R&S 16 bit it tektronix 12 bit but only at end of bandwidth. It is even better than Tektronix. For low frequencies LeCroy or R&S may be better solution without overpaying for not needed bandwidth needed for hi-res modes. Middle of shelf is bit empty for me (say 500 MHz.. 2 GHz)
 
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Offline 2N3055

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Re: 12 bit Keysight... when?
« Reply #21 on: December 24, 2023, 03:35:30 pm »
My opinion is that there won't be 12 bit megazoom 3000G HD scope from Keysight... Maybe never.

 3000T was "redesigned" into 3000G that is exactly same scope. Brand new one, just released year ago..

Keysight now is like Fluke. Fluke 87V is "classic", set in stone in millions specifications, procedures. You don't change it. It sells exactly because it is always the same.
Same is with Keysight 3000T/G.
And same as Fluke, they invest and innovate plenty, just somewhere else. We spoke about it some time ago. Their corporate strategy changed form "manufacturer of premium measurement instruments" into "provider or premium measurement solutions".

They are not interested in "low end". Which by their definition 3000 series is...
So they will (like Fluke) keep legacy designs alive as long as there is market for them (it is minimum investment income) but will not develop new entry level instruments.
It makes no sense. They lost that game long ago..
"Just hard work is not enough - it must be applied sensibly."
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Offline CosteC

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Re: 12 bit Keysight... when?
« Reply #22 on: December 24, 2023, 08:41:42 pm »
I think this is very good summary.
I used to use 34970A and it was withdrawn after decades. I had in my hadns HP 34970A, Agilent one and Keysight one.
They introduced DAQ970A. Bit better here and there, basically same cards, our testers require some changes as DAQ970A is bit faster, it is black, and has better screen. Not used anyway in automated systems.

Keysight is for me solution provider indeed. Very reliable, not cheap but it works very well. Somebody else will test if market really needs 12 bits, thier 10 bits is still better than most of competitors, and those who needs accuracy at GHz read datasheets carefully...
 

Offline miro123

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Re: 12 bit Keysight... when?
« Reply #23 on: December 24, 2023, 09:09:48 pm »
I guess because they have the best 10-bit ADC converter on the market.

The important thing about a scope resolution is the "Effect Number Of Bits" or "ENOB".

Many 12bits scope only has around 6~8bits of ENOB (depending on bandwidth and sample rate), while Keysight can easily reach this number with their 10bit ADC. One of my main guesses they actually design a 12bit ADC, but only say "it is 10bit" when marketing.

Surely one day they will reach 12bit, but I don't think they will announce before they polish enough.

The Keysight 10bit converter is not bad - or it is generally hardly "better"...


Edit: Not in the picture: Siglent SDS7000 H12:  7.5bits (3Ghz), 7.3Bits (4Ghz)
Siglent SDS2000X HD: 8.7bits/8.4bits(100/350Mhz)
Can you provide http link with screenshot data. I see mixing oF ENOB from manufacture A with Noise floor of B.Manufacture does not make coamprition easy. One define ENOB as linearity + Noisefloor in BW. Another   freq flatness + noise , some other takes the gain error too, another use spectral density/THD/TDD. Other take the the horizontal errors also within the ENOBs.
I want to read what exactly the published numbers means.
As more as I read those screenshots as more confusing it gets - e.g Lecroy RMS noise floor at 1mv/div = 87uV. It is great value close to theoretical Johnson noise of 50ohm @25C . Lets calculate the SNR = 8mV pp /87uV - keep in mind that this is the best case number I divide Vpp to RMS noise SNR >1,1% or 6 bits SNR
« Last Edit: December 24, 2023, 10:14:23 pm by miro123 »
 

Offline Martin72

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Re: 12 bit Keysight... when?
« Reply #24 on: December 24, 2023, 10:43:56 pm »
Quote
I see mixing oF ENOB from manufacture A with Noise floor of B.

Then I would take another closer look.
You can only see the noise floor with the lecroy extractor, and only because the cut-out would otherwise have been too narrow.
Here are the models for you to look at again:
-Tektronix series 4B
-Lecroy HDO6000B
-Keysight Infinium S series
-R&S RTO6 series
« Last Edit: December 24, 2023, 10:45:35 pm by Martin72 »
 
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