Author Topic: 12 bit Keysight... when?  (Read 22451 times)

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Offline coppercone2

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Re: 12 bit Keysight... when?
« Reply #25 on: December 24, 2023, 10:54:04 pm »
keysight not so good with business 2 business relations either even if ur fucking huge like a cthulhu, there is tension with the old gods

I am starting to think that either customer relations are there, or they are not there. The supposed customer relations that magically develop between massive entities are not really there either. Maybe its lack of practice or what, but its borderline litigious. The idea that there is some kind of filter for bigger companies is well, a bit of a myth. I see simple problems fester and fester with KS.

p.s. no one deals with them directly, you use a TE broker or whatever, even if F500. Last someone tried direct KS relations they basically lost their sanity.




p.p.s.

for those big customer only sales support people, try working out the bugs and problems with the little people so you can actually fucking help the big people. their like beta testers. your department sux. its a slow unpleasant pain in the ass and prevents work and research from getting done. chances are the guy running a single TE in his garage had the same problem we do and you might actually have fixed it by the time we had a time sensitive cost sensitive problem. and you can learn some manners and practice discourse while you are at it. its a skill you develop and maintain through conversations with all sorts of people. the greeks knew this about 2500 years ago.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2023, 11:12:43 pm by coppercone2 »
 

Offline tooki

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Re: 12 bit Keysight... when?
« Reply #26 on: December 26, 2023, 07:08:19 pm »
Just had that discussion with my Keysight dealer yesterday because I want to upgrade my current 3000A scope. He suggested the 4000A and when I mentioned that I'm more interested in something like the R&S MXO 4 or the newly released Tek 4 Series B (much more responsive UI than the old one) he said their only option was an EXR which costs at least twice as much, probably 3 times once you add the software packages.

I'd love to stay with Keysight but their lower-end offerings just don't seem to keep up with the competition and no change in sight. He did mention on the phone that there will be a refresh of the 4000A sometime next year but couldn't give any more details than it being more of a software than hardware change. Maybe a G version?  :-// Doesn't sound like there's going to be a 10 or 12-bit version or modern UI any day soon  :(
4000G is already out, I had a quote for one back in October. But no news on any true upgrade to that hardware — 4000A->4000G is just like 3000T->3000G: basically no changes other than throwing in most of the software options by default.
 
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Online Anthocyanina

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Re: 12 bit Keysight... when?
« Reply #27 on: December 26, 2023, 08:03:07 pm »
Just had that discussion with my Keysight dealer yesterday because I want to upgrade my current 3000A scope. He suggested the 4000A and when I mentioned that I'm more interested in something like the R&S MXO 4 or the newly released Tek 4 Series B (much more responsive UI than the old one) he said their only option was an EXR which costs at least twice as much, probably 3 times once you add the software packages.

I'd love to stay with Keysight but their lower-end offerings just don't seem to keep up with the competition and no change in sight. He did mention on the phone that there will be a refresh of the 4000A sometime next year but couldn't give any more details than it being more of a software than hardware change. Maybe a G version?  :-// Doesn't sound like there's going to be a 10 or 12-bit version or modern UI any day soon  :(
4000G is already out, I had a quote for one back in October. But no news on any true upgrade to that hardware — 4000A->4000G is just like 3000T->3000G: basically no changes other than throwing in most of the software options by default.

huh, it's really out! very quiet release, 8 bits, of course, and also black. the white/beige ones looked so lovely :(
 

Online zrq

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Re: 12 bit Keysight... when?
« Reply #28 on: December 26, 2023, 08:24:39 pm »
Are these G version scope still Windows CE based? Or keysight finally moved away from this dead OS line (EOL 5 years ago I recall)?
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: 12 bit Keysight... when?
« Reply #29 on: December 26, 2023, 08:29:39 pm »
Are these G version scope still Windows CE based? Or keysight finally moved away from this dead OS line (EOL 5 years ago I recall)?
I don't think they can even buy new WinCE licenses any more, which I think is why they changed the DSOX12xx to Linux
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Offline tooki

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Re: 12 bit Keysight... when?
« Reply #30 on: December 30, 2023, 08:18:02 pm »
Are these G version scope still Windows CE based? Or keysight finally moved away from this dead OS line (EOL 5 years ago I recall)?
I don't think they can even buy new WinCE licenses any more, which I think is why they changed the DSOX12xx to Linux
Wiki says OEMs can buy licenses through 2028.

I didn’t realize Keysight had switched the 1000 series to Linux. Any difference in performance compared to the WinCE-based predecessors?
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: 12 bit Keysight... when?
« Reply #31 on: December 30, 2023, 10:12:02 pm »
Are these G version scope still Windows CE based? Or keysight finally moved away from this dead OS line (EOL 5 years ago I recall)?
I don't think they can even buy new WinCE licenses any more, which I think is why they changed the DSOX12xx to Linux
Wiki says OEMs can buy licenses through 2028.

I didn’t realize Keysight had switched the 1000 series to Linux. Any difference in performance compared to the WinCE-based predecessors?
The first release had significantly longer boot time, but they said this would be improved - I donated the scope to a hackspace so don't know what the current state  is
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Offline tooki

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Re: 12 bit Keysight... when?
« Reply #32 on: December 31, 2023, 02:45:33 pm »
What about the real-time performance? The lack of UI lag is one of the things I like the most about Keysight oscilloscopes, at least the ones I’ve used (which are all WinCE-based units, including older 1000-series).
 

Online zrq

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Re: 12 bit Keysight... when?
« Reply #33 on: December 31, 2023, 05:03:46 pm »
Hmm, I would not call my experience with the DSOX2000 and 3000 lack of UI lag, especially when you try to drag the measurement cursors on the touch screen. The (half) built-in VNC remote control also runs at laughable frame rates like 1 or 2 fps.
 
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Offline tooki

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Re: 12 bit Keysight... when?
« Reply #34 on: January 01, 2024, 02:31:21 pm »
Hmm, I would not call my experience with the DSOX2000 and 3000 lack of UI lag, especially when you try to drag the measurement cursors on the touch screen. The (half) built-in VNC remote control also runs at laughable frame rates like 1 or 2 fps.
I’m not talking about remote control (admittedly a big downside to the Keysights). Have you used other oscilloscopes? Practically all have user interfaces that are slower everywhere, all the time compared to the Keysights. Many have UIs that I consider to be unusably slow.
 

Offline HighVoltage

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Re: 12 bit Keysight... when?
« Reply #35 on: January 01, 2024, 02:47:05 pm »

4000G is already out, I had a quote for one back in October. But no news on any true upgrade to that hardware — 4000A->4000G is just like 3000T->3000G: basically no changes other than throwing in most of the software options by default.

I had no idea!
And even if I do a google search, nothing comes up for the 4000G
I also do not see it on German distributor sites.

Is Keysight hiding their marketing for this 4000G scope?
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Online Bud

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Re: 12 bit Keysight... when?
« Reply #36 on: January 01, 2024, 04:17:53 pm »
What about the real-time performance? The lack of UI lag is one of the things I like the most about Keysight oscilloscopes, at least the ones I’ve used (which are all WinCE-based units, including older 1000-series).
The 1200x series (Linux) is based on same hardware as 1100x (WinCE) and FPGA binary is the same. I'd expect similar GUI performance between the two.
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Offline 2N3055

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Re: 12 bit Keysight... when?
« Reply #37 on: January 01, 2024, 04:25:24 pm »
Hmm, I would not call my experience with the DSOX2000 and 3000 lack of UI lag, especially when you try to drag the measurement cursors on the touch screen. The (half) built-in VNC remote control also runs at laughable frame rates like 1 or 2 fps.
I’m not talking about remote control (admittedly a big downside to the Keysights). Have you used other oscilloscopes? Practically all have user interfaces that are slower everywhere, all the time compared to the Keysights. Many have UIs that I consider to be unusably slow.

I have used many scopes, including owning MSOX3000T.
MSOX3000T has very fast reaction on physical buttons and knobs. But there are also things on it that are slow. FFT is slow. Search is slow. Decode from segmented memory first time is slow. But it is definitely optimized to feel responsive on most basic manual operations.

OTOH even on DS1000Z that I definitely noticed it was much slower some time than Keysight, i never felt it was unusable or that it was a problem that would prevent me to do my job. So even if you can notice something not being as fast it can still be perfectly usable. That is definitely a topic where individual preferences and usage patterns are very important. If you spend lots of time sifting through deep memory or doing FFT that might be priority for you...

So yeah, that is going to be very individual opinion. Some will care very much, some not at all.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2024, 04:34:08 pm by 2N3055 »
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Offline 2N3055

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Re: 12 bit Keysight... when?
« Reply #38 on: January 01, 2024, 04:30:20 pm »
What about the real-time performance? The lack of UI lag is one of the things I like the most about Keysight oscilloscopes, at least the ones I’ve used (which are all WinCE-based units, including older 1000-series).
The 1200x series (Linux) is based on same hardware as 1100x (WinCE) and FPGA binary is the same. I'd expect similar GUI performance between the two.

Other scopes struggle with priority given to reading user input on software side. WinCE as much as not getting much love, has that done very well. On Linux, it depends on what toolkit was used and how it was tuned. But, since Keysight has resources and if they took it as priority, I agree with you they might at least make it comparably fast. Even if not exactly the same they would tune it to be "close enough".
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Offline HighVoltage

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Re: 12 bit Keysight... when?
« Reply #39 on: January 01, 2024, 04:33:02 pm »
FFT is slow on all 3000x, 4000x, 6000x Keysight scopes

The older 7000 series like the MSO7104B is much much faster in the FFT and all other math functions.
 
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Offline tooki

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Re: 12 bit Keysight... when?
« Reply #40 on: January 01, 2024, 04:58:31 pm »
Hmm, I would not call my experience with the DSOX2000 and 3000 lack of UI lag, especially when you try to drag the measurement cursors on the touch screen. The (half) built-in VNC remote control also runs at laughable frame rates like 1 or 2 fps.
I’m not talking about remote control (admittedly a big downside to the Keysights). Have you used other oscilloscopes? Practically all have user interfaces that are slower everywhere, all the time compared to the Keysights. Many have UIs that I consider to be unusably slow.

I have used many scopes, including owning MSOX3000T.
MSOX3000T has very fast reaction on physical buttons and knobs. But there are also things on it that are slow. FFT is slow. Search is slow. Decode from segmented memory first time is slow. But it is definitely optimized to feel responsive on most basic manual operations.

OTOH even on DS1000Z that I definitely noticed it was much slower some time than Keysight, i never felt it was unusable or that it was a problem that would prevent me to do my job. So even if you can notice something not being as fast it can still be perfectly usable. That is definitely a topic where individual preferences and usage patterns are very important. If you spend lots of time sifting through deep memory or doing FFT that might be priority for you...

So yeah, that is going to be very individual opinion. Some will care very much, some not at all.
I own the DS1000Z and know what you mean.

The FFT and search aren’t UI elements as such. The Keysight’s UI for those remains very responsive, even if the functions themselves are slow. That’s what Keysight has absolutely nailed on its scopes: UI responsiveness. They never feel like they’re bogged down.

As an example of what I mean, the R&S RTB2000 and RTM3000 I find to be unpleasantly slow, to the point that this alone excluded them from the running when I was selecting a new scope at work recently. The UI is always lagging behind you, so even basic things like moving a trace using the rotary encoder (never mind touch screen) are frustrating because you have to stop ahead of where you want to be. Scrolling through menus, same thing. The actual acquisition hardware is great, and the waveform update rate very good. But the UI is like molasses. (I ended up getting the MXO 4, whose UI is still slow compared to the Keysights, but what I consider just barely tolerable.)
 
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Offline tooki

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Re: 12 bit Keysight... when?
« Reply #41 on: January 01, 2024, 05:16:23 pm »
What about the real-time performance? The lack of UI lag is one of the things I like the most about Keysight oscilloscopes, at least the ones I’ve used (which are all WinCE-based units, including older 1000-series).
The 1200x series (Linux) is based on same hardware as 1100x (WinCE) and FPGA binary is the same. I'd expect similar GUI performance between the two.
That is a very, very incorrect assumption to make. UI responsiveness has nothing to do with the acquisition hardware performance as such: many (most?) modern scopes have incredible acquisition hardware, but struggle to create a UI for them that is responsive. And it’s perfectly possible to create a snappy UI for very slow acquisition hardware (for example, Saleae Logic and a basic 24MHz logic analyzer device.) The worst is when you have a slow UI whose design creates dependencies on the acquisition hardware, such that the hardware causes the UI to hang while it does stuff.

The responsiveness of a UI hinges on many, many things, which is why the same hardware can be super responsive when running one OS or UI toolkit, and slow as molasses when running another. Among other things, memory footprint, memory management, amount of hardware acceleration used, functions available, amount of abstraction, algorithms chosen, skill of the programmers, choice of API, amount of compiler optimizations…

Just as an example: I remember when Mac OS X 10.0 first came out in 2001. While it was super stable compared to Mac OS 9 on the same hardware, it didn’t yet leverage all that much GPU acceleration, so it felt sluggish compared to Mac OS 9 on the same hardware. 10.1 optimized some things, but when 10.2 introduced hardware acceleration for several more layers of the graphics stack, it really felt snappy for the first time. Again, on the same hardware. Mac OS 9 basically allowed programs to write directly to the screen, whereas Mac OS X used a buffer for each window, which then got composited (layered with transparency, etc) and double-buffered to the screen to avoid tearing. More capable, more robust — and slower, especially when not hardware-accelerated.

What boggles my mind is how sluggish so many modern scope GUIs are, despite having application processors far more powerful than in older ones that were nice and snappy.
 

Offline Someone

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Re: 12 bit Keysight... when?
« Reply #42 on: January 02, 2024, 12:04:13 am »
Hmm, I would not call my experience with the DSOX2000 and 3000 lack of UI lag, especially when you try to drag the measurement cursors on the touch screen. The (half) built-in VNC remote control also runs at laughable frame rates like 1 or 2 fps.
I’m not talking about remote control (admittedly a big downside to the Keysights). Have you used other oscilloscopes? Practically all have user interfaces that are slower everywhere, all the time compared to the Keysights. Many have UIs that I consider to be unusably slow.
I have used many scopes, including owning MSOX3000T.
MSOX3000T has very fast reaction on physical buttons and knobs. But there are also things on it that are slow. FFT is slow. Search is slow. Decode from segmented memory first time is slow. But it is definitely optimized to feel responsive on most basic manual operations.

OTOH even on DS1000Z that I definitely noticed it was much slower some time than Keysight, i never felt it was unusable or that it was a problem that would prevent me to do my job. So even if you can notice something not being as fast it can still be perfectly usable. That is definitely a topic where individual preferences and usage patterns are very important. If you spend lots of time sifting through deep memory or doing FFT that might be priority for you...

So yeah, that is going to be very individual opinion. Some will care very much, some not at all.
FFT speeds are all over the place:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keysight-scope-1st-march-2017/msg1265067/#msg1265067
One area few people have been bothered to actually measure and compare.
 
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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: 12 bit Keysight... when?
« Reply #43 on: January 09, 2024, 11:32:00 am »

4000G is already out, I had a quote for one back in October. But no news on any true upgrade to that hardware — 4000A->4000G is just like 3000T->3000G: basically no changes other than throwing in most of the software options by default.

I had no idea!
And even if I do a google search, nothing comes up for the 4000G
I also do not see it on German distributor sites.

Is Keysight hiding their marketing for this 4000G scope?
https://www.testequity.co.uk/Promotions/KeysightPromotions/Keysight4000GX-Series-Teaser
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Offline HighVoltage

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Re: 12 bit Keysight... when?
« Reply #44 on: January 09, 2024, 11:33:54 am »
Oh, coming out on  January 15th!
Thanks
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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: 12 bit Keysight... when?
« Reply #45 on: January 09, 2024, 12:35:46 pm »
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Offline 2N3055

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Re: 12 bit Keysight... when?
« Reply #46 on: January 09, 2024, 01:04:30 pm »
Fun fact, old datasheet for 3000T has dual page photo of scope perfectly aligned between pages...
4000G not so much... Looks weirdly amateurish....
I know it's nitpicking about some photo in datasheet, but it shows how attention to detail is slipping as the time goes by...
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Online skander36

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Re: 12 bit Keysight... when?
« Reply #47 on: January 09, 2024, 07:11:57 pm »
So, the OP ask about 12 bit KS scope and we ended up happy with an 8 bit "refurbished" scope ...  :)
Subcribe to the opinion that old WinCE on KS provide the most responsive UI.
I also found WinCe on R&S FPC1500 but is not notably fast.
 
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Offline EE-digger

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Re: 12 bit Keysight... when?
« Reply #48 on: January 15, 2024, 07:44:29 pm »
"Meet the world's most advanced oscilloscope"

That was the subject of a morning email from TestEquity.  For a moment, I thought there would be something exciting.  I owned an MSOX4154A for several years and sold it last year.

I also have it's smaller sibling, the 3104T, which I love. 

But c'mon Keysight, a can of dark grey spray paint and that's about it?  What about your screen resolution.  Siglent and Rigol are eating your lunch.  Had a client buy a Rigol RSA last fall and the screen was beautiful.

Keysight needs to move the market forward or they will trail.  The "G" isn't moving anything.

4MPts memory depth?  C'mon Keysight.  That's like making us use a 4 function calculator instead of Matlab or other.

That's the sad truth.  This cow's been milked.  There's nothing to love about the "G" series.

And I'm ANGRY.  Why?  Because Keysight is American at its roots (yeah, I know the details).  It's not designed in a country that hates us but loves our money ... not the people, the ... government.  I don't want my next scope from a country that's hinting at WW3, which is insane.  Ok, no politics here.

« Last Edit: January 15, 2024, 07:51:01 pm by EE-digger »
 

Offline shapirus

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Re: 12 bit Keysight... when?
« Reply #49 on: January 15, 2024, 09:09:19 pm »
I don't want my next scope from a country that's hinting at WW3, which is insane.  Ok, no politics here.
Keysight (as well as R&S btw) is still selling dual-use equipment to the terrorist entity commonly known today as Russia and doing "business as usual" there, which is not any less despicable than that.
 


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