Products > Test Equipment
12 bit Keysight... when?
tooki:
--- Quote from: 2N3055 on January 01, 2024, 04:25:24 pm ---
--- Quote from: tooki on January 01, 2024, 02:31:21 pm ---
--- Quote from: zrq on December 31, 2023, 05:03:46 pm ---Hmm, I would not call my experience with the DSOX2000 and 3000 lack of UI lag, especially when you try to drag the measurement cursors on the touch screen. The (half) built-in VNC remote control also runs at laughable frame rates like 1 or 2 fps.
--- End quote ---
I’m not talking about remote control (admittedly a big downside to the Keysights). Have you used other oscilloscopes? Practically all have user interfaces that are slower everywhere, all the time compared to the Keysights. Many have UIs that I consider to be unusably slow.
--- End quote ---
I have used many scopes, including owning MSOX3000T.
MSOX3000T has very fast reaction on physical buttons and knobs. But there are also things on it that are slow. FFT is slow. Search is slow. Decode from segmented memory first time is slow. But it is definitely optimized to feel responsive on most basic manual operations.
OTOH even on DS1000Z that I definitely noticed it was much slower some time than Keysight, i never felt it was unusable or that it was a problem that would prevent me to do my job. So even if you can notice something not being as fast it can still be perfectly usable. That is definitely a topic where individual preferences and usage patterns are very important. If you spend lots of time sifting through deep memory or doing FFT that might be priority for you...
So yeah, that is going to be very individual opinion. Some will care very much, some not at all.
--- End quote ---
I own the DS1000Z and know what you mean.
The FFT and search aren’t UI elements as such. The Keysight’s UI for those remains very responsive, even if the functions themselves are slow. That’s what Keysight has absolutely nailed on its scopes: UI responsiveness. They never feel like they’re bogged down.
As an example of what I mean, the R&S RTB2000 and RTM3000 I find to be unpleasantly slow, to the point that this alone excluded them from the running when I was selecting a new scope at work recently. The UI is always lagging behind you, so even basic things like moving a trace using the rotary encoder (never mind touch screen) are frustrating because you have to stop ahead of where you want to be. Scrolling through menus, same thing. The actual acquisition hardware is great, and the waveform update rate very good. But the UI is like molasses. (I ended up getting the MXO 4, whose UI is still slow compared to the Keysights, but what I consider just barely tolerable.)
tooki:
--- Quote from: Bud on January 01, 2024, 04:17:53 pm ---
--- Quote from: tooki on December 31, 2023, 02:45:33 pm ---What about the real-time performance? The lack of UI lag is one of the things I like the most about Keysight oscilloscopes, at least the ones I’ve used (which are all WinCE-based units, including older 1000-series).
--- End quote ---
The 1200x series (Linux) is based on same hardware as 1100x (WinCE) and FPGA binary is the same. I'd expect similar GUI performance between the two.
--- End quote ---
That is a very, very incorrect assumption to make. UI responsiveness has nothing to do with the acquisition hardware performance as such: many (most?) modern scopes have incredible acquisition hardware, but struggle to create a UI for them that is responsive. And it’s perfectly possible to create a snappy UI for very slow acquisition hardware (for example, Saleae Logic and a basic 24MHz logic analyzer device.) The worst is when you have a slow UI whose design creates dependencies on the acquisition hardware, such that the hardware causes the UI to hang while it does stuff.
The responsiveness of a UI hinges on many, many things, which is why the same hardware can be super responsive when running one OS or UI toolkit, and slow as molasses when running another. Among other things, memory footprint, memory management, amount of hardware acceleration used, functions available, amount of abstraction, algorithms chosen, skill of the programmers, choice of API, amount of compiler optimizations…
Just as an example: I remember when Mac OS X 10.0 first came out in 2001. While it was super stable compared to Mac OS 9 on the same hardware, it didn’t yet leverage all that much GPU acceleration, so it felt sluggish compared to Mac OS 9 on the same hardware. 10.1 optimized some things, but when 10.2 introduced hardware acceleration for several more layers of the graphics stack, it really felt snappy for the first time. Again, on the same hardware. Mac OS 9 basically allowed programs to write directly to the screen, whereas Mac OS X used a buffer for each window, which then got composited (layered with transparency, etc) and double-buffered to the screen to avoid tearing. More capable, more robust — and slower, especially when not hardware-accelerated.
What boggles my mind is how sluggish so many modern scope GUIs are, despite having application processors far more powerful than in older ones that were nice and snappy.
Someone:
--- Quote from: 2N3055 on January 01, 2024, 04:25:24 pm ---
--- Quote from: tooki on January 01, 2024, 02:31:21 pm ---
--- Quote from: zrq on December 31, 2023, 05:03:46 pm ---Hmm, I would not call my experience with the DSOX2000 and 3000 lack of UI lag, especially when you try to drag the measurement cursors on the touch screen. The (half) built-in VNC remote control also runs at laughable frame rates like 1 or 2 fps.
--- End quote ---
I’m not talking about remote control (admittedly a big downside to the Keysights). Have you used other oscilloscopes? Practically all have user interfaces that are slower everywhere, all the time compared to the Keysights. Many have UIs that I consider to be unusably slow.
--- End quote ---
I have used many scopes, including owning MSOX3000T.
MSOX3000T has very fast reaction on physical buttons and knobs. But there are also things on it that are slow. FFT is slow. Search is slow. Decode from segmented memory first time is slow. But it is definitely optimized to feel responsive on most basic manual operations.
OTOH even on DS1000Z that I definitely noticed it was much slower some time than Keysight, i never felt it was unusable or that it was a problem that would prevent me to do my job. So even if you can notice something not being as fast it can still be perfectly usable. That is definitely a topic where individual preferences and usage patterns are very important. If you spend lots of time sifting through deep memory or doing FFT that might be priority for you...
So yeah, that is going to be very individual opinion. Some will care very much, some not at all.
--- End quote ---
FFT speeds are all over the place:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keysight-scope-1st-march-2017/msg1265067/#msg1265067
One area few people have been bothered to actually measure and compare.
mikeselectricstuff:
--- Quote from: HighVoltage on January 01, 2024, 02:47:05 pm ---
--- Quote from: tooki on December 26, 2023, 07:08:19 pm ---
4000G is already out, I had a quote for one back in October. But no news on any true upgrade to that hardware — 4000A->4000G is just like 3000T->3000G: basically no changes other than throwing in most of the software options by default.
--- End quote ---
I had no idea!
And even if I do a google search, nothing comes up for the 4000G
I also do not see it on German distributor sites.
Is Keysight hiding their marketing for this 4000G scope?
--- End quote ---
https://www.testequity.co.uk/Promotions/KeysightPromotions/Keysight4000GX-Series-Teaser
HighVoltage:
Oh, coming out on January 15th!
Thanks
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