Author Topic: My lab has no grounded AC mains sockets!  (Read 2026 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline n3mmrTopic starter

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 121
  • Country: se
My lab has no grounded AC mains sockets!
« on: June 19, 2019, 11:24:20 am »
And I just read the docs on my Siglent instruments, and they all warn that you must ground them through the mains socket grounding terminal.
'ยจ
My hobby room does NOT have any ground wires brought in from the mains entry point of the flat. And this room doesn't have polarised mains sockets.

Does this actually mean I will very soon electrocute myself?

Is there anything I can do except bring an electrician in to ground all the outlets in my "lab"??

While it is true that the bare metal bits of my lab equipment seem to land at +90 v ac relative to the neutral mains wire, that voltage seems to behind something close to a 100 KOhm.
 

Offline Jeroen3

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4078
  • Country: nl
  • Embedded Engineer
    • jeroen3.nl
Re: My lab has no grounded AC mains sockets!
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2019, 11:30:15 am »
You say flat, is it a rented appartment?
 

Offline n3mmrTopic starter

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 121
  • Country: se
Re: My lab has no grounded AC mains sockets!
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2019, 11:41:36 am »
It's a condo, i e I don'tt own the material goods making up the apartment, I own the right to live there.

I can't rewire my own Mains circuit.
 

Offline n3mmrTopic starter

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 121
  • Country: se
Re: My lab has no grounded AC mains sockets!
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2019, 11:47:44 am »
 just realised I can set up a virtual ground environment by feeding all tools and imnstruments from a set of IEC C14 to C13 distribution boxes for the mains.
Then connect my ESD workmat by low impedance to the fake ground of these C13/C14 connections.

There's no other equipment anywhere near, and no actually grounded metal bits nearby either.

Should be safe.
 

Online Fungus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 16637
  • Country: 00
Re: My lab has no grounded AC mains sockets!
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2019, 12:07:36 pm »
And I just read the docs on my Siglent instruments, and they all warn that you must ground them through the mains socket grounding terminal.

Only needed if you're working on mains transformers, power supplies and anything that has AC mains going through it. If you're working on Arduinos then ignore it.

Does this actually mean I will very soon electrocute myself?

If it's only a two wire installation then hopefully it has all the required GFIs/RCDs in the distribution box and death is unlikely.

And this room doesn't have polarised mains sockets.

Are any sockets grounded anywhere in the flat? Get a long extension lead from another room.  :popcorn:

If not, you could tie the ground to the neutral inside a power strip and plug all your devices into that you should get the same thing, but ... it could be bad if it goes wrong. You have to make sure your neutral really is neutral. If you do it then be sure to put plenty of "danger" stickers on the power strip and screw it to your table so nobody can borrow it and use it somewhere else. Maybe even put the ground->neutral connection inside a plug which can be removed to make the power strip safe again.

While it is true that the bare metal bits of my lab equipment seem to land at +90 v ac relative to the neutral mains wire, that voltage seems to behind something close to a 100 KOhm.

Measure in amps mode to see if any current flows.

(Wear gloves, ear plugs, dark glasses, don't hold the meter in your hand, etc.  :D )

Edit: This bit wasn't very serious advice but not everybody will see the part about wearing lots of safety gear as "humor". Don't do this, especially at 90V!

(connect a light bulb between the two instead, see if it glows)
« Last Edit: June 19, 2019, 02:46:25 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline Berni

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4946
  • Country: si
Re: My lab has no grounded AC mains sockets!
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2019, 01:04:34 pm »
Having no ground does expose you to extra risk.

If any of the equipment fails and shorts live to the metal case suddenly everything plugged into the same power strip will have live on the case of it.

This might sound bad but is not actually that dangerous until there is a grounded object in close proximity. As long as you are only able to touch live you could get a bit of a zap from the leakage trough your feet and such but the current is fairly small. But if you have something like say a central heating radiator in the same room and you touch live while at the same time touching the radiator this is when things can become deadly. The current can find a better path to ground trough the metal piping, allowing much more current to flow, to the point where it could kill you.

In very old buildings it can be quite difficult to sort the electrical wiring up to modern standards. So such non grounded outlets can take a while to get replaced.

For now if you have grounded outlets elsewhere id suggest running an extension cord there.
 

Offline n3mmrTopic starter

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 121
  • Country: se
Re: My lab has no grounded AC mains sockets!
« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2019, 01:24:59 pm »
If I were to run an extension cord to another room, I might get a jail sentence for endangering othars.

For now, I'll just ignore it all.

 

Online tszaboo

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7364
  • Country: nl
  • Current job: ATEX product design
Re: My lab has no grounded AC mains sockets!
« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2019, 01:54:01 pm »
And I just read the docs on my Siglent instruments, and they all warn that you must ground them through the mains socket grounding terminal.

Only needed if you're working on mains transformers, power supplies and anything that has AC mains going through it. If you're working on Arduinos then ignore it.

No, this is much worse than that. If you have broken filter caps in your power supply of your PC, the chassis could become half mains voltage. The end of your soldering iron will be floating. And any equipment which is broken (ie the said iron) could potentially become live, unless it is double isolated.
You should talk to the owner?/landlord?. Negotiate something, because it is their responsibility to provide a place which confirms with the latest building code. Read through your contract, there will be something bout it. And a socket tester costs something like 10 EUR, get one and check all sockets, if you live somewhere.
 

Offline newbrain

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1719
  • Country: se
Re: My lab has no grounded AC mains sockets!
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2019, 01:54:35 pm »
You have to make sure your neutral really is neutral.
This, by itself makes your advice dangerous.
Plugs and sockets in Sweden (and Italy, and other EU countries) are not polarized, so you can never be sure of which is which.

There are also home installations (in Italy at least) where no 'neutral' is distributed, as they are two legs of a triphase, so also this:
Quote
Measure in amps mode to see if any current flows.
is a dangerous piece of advice. Use a filament bulb instead, or a DMM with Lo-Z.

I would strongly discourage confusing neutral with PE in any way not sanctioned by the regulations.

No ground at all, if RCDs are in place (and they should by 2019!), is much safer.
Nandemo wa shiranai wa yo, shitteru koto dake.
 
The following users thanked this post: Marco1971

Offline Berni

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4946
  • Country: si
Re: My lab has no grounded AC mains sockets!
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2019, 02:26:13 pm »
If I were to run an extension cord to another room, I might get a jail sentence for endangering othars.

For now, I'll just ignore it all.

If anyone is going to jail then it should be the land lord for leasing out a house with unsafe electrical wiring in it. Equipment has the 3rd ground pin for a good reason, to not kill people.
 

Online Fungus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 16637
  • Country: 00
Re: My lab has no grounded AC mains sockets!
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2019, 02:41:36 pm »
Quote
Measure in amps mode to see if any current flows.
is a dangerous piece of advice.

If taken out of context.

I'll happily withdraw it though. Post edited.

Use a filament bulb instead

Filament bulbs are good! Poking pieces of stripped lamp flex into a distribution panel with your fingers? Not so much.  It's all about context.  :)

« Last Edit: June 19, 2019, 03:10:03 pm by Fungus »
 
The following users thanked this post: newbrain

Offline colorado.rob

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 419
  • Country: us
Re: My lab has no grounded AC mains sockets!
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2019, 02:47:16 pm »
Surely you can hire an electrician to rewire your flat in order to meet modern electrical safety codes.
 

Online Fungus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 16637
  • Country: 00
Re: My lab has no grounded AC mains sockets!
« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2019, 02:51:45 pm »
If anyone is going to jail then it should be the land lord for leasing out a house with unsafe electrical wiring in it. Equipment has the 3rd ground pin for a good reason, to not kill people.

There's plenty of places where two wires is a legal installation.

Surely you can hire an electrician to rewire your flat in order to meet modern electrical safety codes.

Not if it's rented.
 

Offline n3mmrTopic starter

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 121
  • Country: se
Re: My lab has no grounded AC mains sockets!
« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2019, 03:35:16 pm »
Thank you all for all your plentiful and salient advice!

What I cannot do for practical reasons is rewire now. I need permission from the Condo governing board.

I'm in Sweden so rwo-wire installations except for wet-roomswere the nor,m when this condo was built.

Today, new houses are built with three-wire internal distro and three-phase 5 wire feeds tothe apartment.

The normal way to deal with this kind of situation is to rewire one room (or all rooms) for three-wire mains. I've done that in my previous, rented, apartmentm since my cat jumped screaming when I turned on my Sun workstation while she had her tail draped down its back. No serious harm, except to my  bare legs....

Doing that here is a different matter, and will require major effort due to the layout and furniture of these rooms.
Too many permanent fixtures.

I'll just live with it for now, and use a post-outlet grounded isolation transformer for mains voltage work, or do those in my kitchen (which is threewire, that was the standard for wetrooms since the early fifties ).

 

Offline Mr. Scram

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9810
  • Country: 00
  • Display aficionado
Re: My lab has no grounded AC mains sockets!
« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2019, 03:40:40 pm »

There's plenty of places where two wires is a legal installation.

Not if it's rented.
That rather depends on the law of the land. It's not uncommon to be able to do this. Depending on yet more laws it may be considered an upgrade, which means you don't have to revert it when you leave. In some cases you may even be able to recover the costs from your landlord.
 
The following users thanked this post: commongrounder

Online Fungus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 16637
  • Country: 00
Re: My lab has no grounded AC mains sockets!
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2019, 03:46:11 pm »
I'll just live with it for now, and use a post-outlet grounded isolation transformer for mains voltage work, or do those in my kitchen (which is threewire, that was the standard for wetrooms since the early fifties ).

Three wires in the kitchen? Problem solved! Get a long extension.

(unless it's a shared kitchen, but then you'll annoy people by working in there)

 

Offline trevatxtal

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 34
  • Country: england
Re: My lab has no grounded AC mains sockets!
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2019, 04:10:49 pm »
four things to note. Or think about !

""https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schuko ""
is the new installation standard connector for low power for Sweden.

It is not law full to replace any old type with old type . All repairs must fulfill the new standard.

The building may not qualify under building regulations in your district often more strict if  rented or Leased. It may also contravene the building insurance.

Many EU country's have a fixed orientated 3 pin connectors as standard and EU regulations require all country's to follow suit soon.. if not yesterday?
 

Offline Jeroen3

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4078
  • Country: nl
  • Embedded Engineer
    • jeroen3.nl
Re: My lab has no grounded AC mains sockets!
« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2019, 05:55:40 am »
In the netherlands the electrical code does not expire. When you build the house on NEN1010:1988 then it may stay this way, perfectly legal. Until you start significant remodeling or something. I assume most of mainland europe follows this self regulation principle.

You can ask the owners association to upgrade the electrics, or permission to update only your appartment, if you pay for it.
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf