Author Topic: 350Mhz Scope, 2020  (Read 5767 times)

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Online Mechatrommer

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Re: 350Mhz Scope, 2020
« Reply #50 on: May 07, 2020, 11:45:25 am »
if only zooming is concerned, i can do that with my Rigol DS1054Z coupled with PC SW like my VisaDSO (if i find the built-in zoom feature is too limiting). i can save as documentations and later comparison with new revisioned circuit, do super long FFT, THD calculation etc to anything you like, the key is loooong memory and pretty good (usable) SW API to start with. if you cant program it, you can hire someone else to do it, isnt all pros work with Matlab nowadays? but i never consider it as pros method as i do this just for hobby. except the 100MHz BW (or attenuated 500MHz Nyquist frequency) limitation, if i need more BW with such a feature, i will buy higher end Rigol anytime. i havent deal so intimately with my used LeCroy SDA6000 yet if it has PC SW downloadable/transferable data but i can already see some of its limitation compared to my cheapy Rigol. another key for "pros" is.... download and study the DSO manual, today its in our fingertip! you can pinpoint your particular interest in there and/or compare with other scopes from their manuals, send the manufacturer a question if it has this or that. then later we can ask more specific, more delusive "brand-unbiased" features in forum with hope there is owner as member. we can save members from scratching each others faces too with unorganized omnidirectional post, ymmv.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2020, 12:02:12 pm by Mechatrommer »
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Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: 350Mhz Scope, 2020
« Reply #51 on: May 07, 2020, 12:48:19 pm »
I'm not going to debate this any further. I have made my position very clear on how to get work done efficiently. It is up to the reader to decide whether this applies to his/her use cases or not.

I can certainly accept that (although I really tried to understand your point), however I'm really disappointed that I now will never learn which of the some "50/50" of all scopes will allow "zooming out " on very short time bases  ;)
« Last Edit: May 07, 2020, 01:13:05 pm by Wuerstchenhund »
 

Online Mechatrommer

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Re: 350Mhz Scope, 2020
« Reply #52 on: May 07, 2020, 01:36:40 pm »
thats why you dont have to engage to troll like posts. if they dont have a working example, you can safely assume its just out of an air... thats how you survive around here, dont treat anything like a loved wife. and if they dont want to be the "best" like you, so be it.
It's extremely difficult to start life.. one features of nature.. physical laws are mathematical theory of great beauty... You may wonder Why? our knowledge shows that nature is so constructed. We simply have to accept it. One could describe the situation by saying that... (Paul Dirac)
 

Online tautech

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Re: 350Mhz Scope, 2020
« Reply #53 on: May 07, 2020, 02:06:56 pm »

To the OP: Regarding the Siglent: one thing to watch out for is that it uses a different memory management compared to the Tektronix you are used to; Siglent typically cuts the memory short to have just enough samples to fit the screen. This has to match your usage.

That is utter BS !
That is because you want to sell Siglent.
Not here, it's outside my assigned territory, whereas you can and do flog your stuff here:
For that you'll need a high speed differential probe (shameless plug: I sell a relatively low cost one)............
::)
Quote
Just be fair and see the downsides for a change. No shame in that.
There are no downsides other than in your mind, only power to the scope user in their ability to fully utilize the tools in the toolbox which appears you have some great difficulty adapting to.  :-//

We've been over and over this.  ::)
And it doesn't work the way I want an oscilloscope to work; the way the Siglent scopes work seriously hamper my productivity. And I'm not the only one who sees shortening the record length to fit the screen as a downside.
Oh poor didums,  :'( maybe one of these might suit you better:



Really, in this day and age how to use a DSO to best effect still escapes some.  ::)

How much is too much for a good current probe ?
I've done a bit of 500 KHz DC-DC convertor work too and always got away with a Tek P6021 AC current probe and apart from only being an AC rated probe they still whip most of the current (excuse pun) offerings

I have a current probe I'm looking at selling for under US$250 and under $300 for a 2MHz unit.
Yummy, some detailed specs on it would be nice....and current vs frequency derating curves.
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Offline nctnico

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Re: 350Mhz Scope, 2020
« Reply #54 on: May 07, 2020, 02:27:24 pm »
I'm not going to debate this any further. I have made my position very clear on how to get work done efficiently. It is up to the reader to decide whether this applies to his/her use cases or not.

I can certainly accept that (although I really tried to understand your point), however I'm really disappointed that I now will never learn which of the some "50/50" of all scopes will allow "zooming out " on very short time bases  ;)
If you cared to read you can find a long list a few posts earlier.

@Tautech: your ad-hominem attack which lacks any technical substance is really mature. It just underlines that you get extremely pissed at anyone who (in your mind) attacks your livelyhood. Way to go!  :clap:
« Last Edit: May 07, 2020, 03:58:00 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline thinkfat

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Re: 350Mhz Scope, 2020
« Reply #55 on: May 07, 2020, 02:59:08 pm »
As far as I can say, all Rigol scopes capture the full sample memory when you ask them to. Of course the waveform update rate will take a hit. I find it convenient. But it didn't stop me from buying the SDS2104X+ instead of the MSO5074. I can achieve roughly the same behavior using the Zoom mode. It just takes a bit of additional setup because I need to first set a timebase that will capture the range I need to inspect and hit the Zoom button. Then, however, I can zoom in and out using the timebase control like on the Rigol.

However, I'd need to do a similar setup step on the Rigol scope, too, in choosing an appropriate memory depth (of course I can just set it to maximum, but then waveform update might be slower than necessary).
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Offline Gandalf_Sr

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Re: 350Mhz Scope, 2020
« Reply #56 on: May 07, 2020, 03:05:17 pm »
 :popcorn:
If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer
 

Online 2N3055

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Re: 350Mhz Scope, 2020
« Reply #57 on: May 07, 2020, 04:41:55 pm »
On Keysight MSOX3000T, if you do single, or stop, it will sample full memory. Even on 1ns/div. Which will be some weird always different amount of time, depending on timebase...
That is why I insist than Nico's argument is wrong.
Yes it will try to capture full memory, (or exact amount of memory you set in digitizer mode, in newer firmware).
Problem is that I don't think and use scope in number of samples. I use it to capture certain time.
For instance I have 10 SPI packets that together are, let's say, 10 ms. I need to capture 10 ms.
Problem starts with fact that my full memory worth of capture means different time, based on timebase. So as I twiddle trough timebase, I need to keep an eye to at what sample rate I'm now so I can make mental calculation how much ms this will be "behind the screen"..
It will change all the time as I change timebase.
So basically Nico relies that his "full memory capture" will hopefully, maybe, with any luck, capture all of the stuff he needs...And will keep calculating in his head if that is going to happen or not.
If that is good workflow, I'm a bycicle...

But guess what, there is a very good way to deterministically do this. Easy too.
You set scope to capture whole time span with timebase (in this case 1ms/div, 10ms full screen if 10 divisions), set memory depth to make sure you have sample rate that is adequate for what you're doing (and verify both settings right there on the screen),capture whole thing in first try, and then zoom in and out of area of interest at will , for as long as you want to.. And it will do exactly as you commanded. Every time.

I did , once give right to Nico that on small scope screens, zoom mode takes up useful space.
I know that on Rigol DS1000Z you don't have to zoom, on stopped capture, you can use time base /hor pos to look around as a full screen zoom, in and out. So you can do whatever Nico does with signal, just captured in normal way, not relying "maybe it will get it". I can do same thing on MSOX3000T.

I don't know if you can manipulate dataset and displayed data on stopped capture in same manner on Siglent SDS2000X+.
I would like to know if that is possible. Could somebody try that please?
If it is, that makes Nico's argument completely invalid.
If you can't, that is a shame because that IS usefull.
BUT, since you have huuge screen10", zoom mode is not that problematic like on a 7" screen.
BUT, it would be nice if you could configure zoom mode size. I personally find that R&S does that nicely...
Regards,
 
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Online tautech

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Re: 350Mhz Scope, 2020
« Reply #58 on: May 07, 2020, 04:50:39 pm »

 :popcorn:
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Offline nctnico

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Re: 350Mhz Scope, 2020
« Reply #59 on: May 07, 2020, 05:00:32 pm »
So basically Nico relies that his "full memory capture" will hopefully, maybe, with any luck, capture all of the stuff he needs...And will keep calculating in his head if that is going to happen or not.
Here your reasoning goes wrong. A modern DSO has 10, 40, 80, 100, X Mpts worth  of memory. At 2 Gs/s 10Mpts is already 5ms worth of data. A time span of 5ms is more than enough to capture 5000 bits of SPI data clocked at 1MHz (which is low for typical SPI). So even when limited to the maximum samplerate you are very likely to capture all of the relevant data you need. There is no luck involved. Ofcourse there are situations where you may need to capture over a longer period of time but that doesn't mean 'my' way of working is useless to begin with.

Do realise that once you get below the point where the oscilloscope drops the samplerate, an oscilloscope will use the full memory length (typically configurable) for the acquisiton. There will be no data outside the screen in that case.

Quote
But guess what, there is a very good way to deterministically do this. Easy too.
You set scope to capture whole time span with timebase (in this case 1ms/div, 10ms full screen if 10 divisions), set memory depth to make sure you have sample rate that is adequate for what you're doing (and verify both settings right there on the screen),capture whole thing in first try, and then zoom in and out of area of interest at will , for as long as you want to.. And it will do exactly as you commanded. Every time.
That is way too much work for me. The DSO is there for me, not the other way around. The less twiddling knobs and the less clutter on the screen, the better. And increasing memory depths on DSOs keep pushing the need for using an exact time base setting further away. Actually I prefer not having to think about the time base setting. When I'm interested in a time aspect of a signal I'll zoom in/out to show certain parts of the signal and use the cursor readings to tell me. Ask yourself: Where is time/div even relevant in that?
« Last Edit: May 07, 2020, 05:32:51 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online 2N3055

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Re: 350Mhz Scope, 2020
« Reply #60 on: May 07, 2020, 05:32:11 pm »
So basically Nico relies that his "full memory capture" will hopefully, maybe, with any luck, capture all of the stuff he needs...And will keep calculating in his head if that is going to happen or not.
Here your reasoning goes wrong. A modern DSO has 10, 40, 80, 100Mpts worth  of memory. At 2 Gs/s 10Mpts is already 5ms worth of data. A time span of 5ms is more than enough to capture 5000 bits of SPI data clocked at 1MHz (which is low for typical SPI). So even when limited to the maximum samplerate you are very likely to capture all of the relevant data you need. There is no luck involved. Ofcourse there are situations where you may need to capture over a longer period of time but that doesn't mean 'my' way of working is useless to begin with. And increasing memory depths on DSOs keep pushing that boundary further away.

Quote
But guess what, there is a very good way to deterministically do this. Easy too.
You set scope to capture whole time span with timebase (in this case 1ms/div, 10ms full screen if 10 divisions), set memory depth to make sure you have sample rate that is adequate for what you're doing (and verify both settings right there on the screen),capture whole thing in first try, and then zoom in and out of area of interest at will , for as long as you want to.. And it will do exactly as you commanded. Every time.
That is way too much work for me. The DSO is there for me, not the other way around. The less twiddling knobs and the less clutter on the screen, the better.
No I'm not wrong. And you were mentioning, for instance,  Keysight DSO7000A / B that don't have 100MS memory.
What you don't understand is that my way of working and your way of working  is exactly the same...
We both get same amount of data, except you do mental math (as you did in your response) to calculate sample size to  get amount of data you want, capture and then zoom out (with timebase knob), and I simply use timebase to capture whole event exactly, and use zoom in...
Neither is wrong, my way is a bit simpler (no mental math, all is already displayed on screen), and both get same results.

Only thing that is wrong is that you, quite theatrically if I may add, proclaim scopes useless if they don't conform to your way of use. And while I, on occasion, when looking at some fast edge, was able to zoom out with timebase, to see some parts of curve afterwards without need to reacquire, it is not something I rely on. The way I see it it is not a favorable feature, but more of your bad habit to capture data on wrong timebase, relying on scope to compensate for that. Sorry, that is my stance on the issue.

But I agree with you that:
- Most of the scopes use too much screen space for zoom mode. It should be tiny scroll bar just to get general idea of waveform and position in the buffer
- Preferably zoom window size should be user configurable (half, quarter screen, minimum, or even better infinite variable like R&S)
- Taking long capture at high sample rate is priceless. I have a deep mem scope because of that.
- When stopped, you should be able to "zoom in and out" with timebase and hor.pos. knob over full capture, like a sorts of "full screen zoom mode". That makes "zoom mode screen problems" go away completely, and is intuitive (same behaviour running and stopped).

Best regards,
 
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Offline nctnico

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Re: 350Mhz Scope, 2020
« Reply #61 on: May 07, 2020, 05:34:49 pm »
I never proclaimed oscilloscopes which don't record beyond the screen if there is acquisition memory leftover are useless. I just noted that for me personally it is a hard fail. Sure you can get similar results using zoom mode but it also means more fiddling with knobs and settings things up just right. I like fire & forget better. You may call that a bad habit but I call needing to bother with the exact time/div setting a waste of my time and attention.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2020, 05:48:03 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Online 2N3055

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Re: 350Mhz Scope, 2020
« Reply #62 on: May 07, 2020, 05:47:17 pm »
I never proclaimed oscilloscopes which don't record beyond the screen if there is acquisition memory leftover are useless. I just noted that for me personally it is a hard fail.
I will take this statement at face value, and will agree that you have all the right in the world to think so four you personally.
I appreciate you honest opinion. Thank you for taking the effort to clear that out for me.

All the best, Nico.
 
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Offline maginnovision

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Re: 350Mhz Scope, 2020
« Reply #63 on: May 07, 2020, 07:03:11 pm »
And zooming out after a capture is very useful. Trigger on a detail, check if the detail is right / wrong and then zoom out to check whether the rest of the signal is (still) as expected. This is a very efficient way to do design verification.

No scope I am aware of does this, they won't capture beyond the screen window. So if your timebase at the capture time is set to 1uS then you only capture 10us or so (can be slightly more) worth of data.
So you can't "zoom out" after capture as there is no data capture at longer timebase settings.
What you do is set a long time base and deep memory, trigger on some event, and then zoom in.

You literally have an R&S scope(any of their newer 'power of 10' scopes) which does it Dave. If you set the memory acq to auto it will capture screen(maybe extra), however you can specify the memory depth and regardless of your time/div window it will fill the memory. The result is a tight window focused on your trigger which you can pull back on to view surrounding events/data.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2020, 07:06:59 pm by maginnovision »
 

Offline stafil

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Re: 350Mhz Scope, 2020
« Reply #64 on: May 07, 2020, 07:54:38 pm »
I never proclaimed oscilloscopes which don't record beyond the screen if there is acquisition memory leftover are useless. I just noted that for me personally it is a hard fail. Sure you can get similar results using zoom mode but it also means more fiddling with knobs and settings things up just right. I like fire & forget better. You may call that a bad habit but I call needing to bother with the exact time/div setting a waste of my time and attention.

Sounds pretty useful feature.

Is there a name for it? How do you find out which ones do and which ones don’t.

 

Offline nctnico

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Re: 350Mhz Scope, 2020
« Reply #65 on: May 07, 2020, 08:08:08 pm »
I never proclaimed oscilloscopes which don't record beyond the screen if there is acquisition memory leftover are useless. I just noted that for me personally it is a hard fail. Sure you can get similar results using zoom mode but it also means more fiddling with knobs and settings things up just right. I like fire & forget better. You may call that a bad habit but I call needing to bother with the exact time/div setting a waste of my time and attention.
Sounds pretty useful feature.

Is there a name for it? How do you find out which ones do and which ones don’t.
There isn't a specific name for it; you may be able to deduce it from the user manual but it is not clear cut. Hints may be automatic memory length versus being able to set a specific length but this doesn't guarantee that the full memory is used. The easiest way to test is to connect the probe to the calibrator output, set the memory depth to maximum, the trigger mode to normal and the level so the scope triggers to the calibrator signal, disconnect the calibrator signal so the triggering stops (do not go into stop mode!). Now turn the time/div knob to 200ns/div and see if you get more signal on the screen. If there is no extra signal on the screen then the oscilloscope does not record beyond the screen.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online tautech

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Re: 350Mhz Scope, 2020
« Reply #66 on: May 07, 2020, 08:15:32 pm »
@Tautech: your ad-hominem attack which lacks any technical substance is really mature.
Oh that is a big word like  m-e-m-o-r-y  m-a-n-a-g-e-m-e-n-t  that you seem to not grasp why it's implemented.

Such are the advances in off the self componentry that entry and midrange DSO's are constructed with today to sustain another specification that you have many times claimed to loathe is WFPS which certainly matters to the A brands as they pursue it with custom ASIC's at great expense to endeavour to maintain high data throughput speeds although at the expense of memory depth the user has available to them. Choose your poison.

As you might know in some ASIC based DSO's the user often has little idea of the actual memory depth in use while the modern method of displaying memory depth available properly informs the user so they can make choices to best suit their needs.

As others have mentioned Zoom mode, where this really shines is to allow the full memory available for detailed long captures and still have almost seconds of data to pan through to inspect and all made immensely easier with a touch display.

All scopes have evolved and changed dramatically from the CRO's we used as youngsters and we've all needed to learn different methods of DSO usage and this still changes today as we know there are different design paths that groups of manufacturers each belong to. Each do very similar things albeit using different methods to obtain much the same result. Users need evolve also to fully take advantage of all the fruits the modern DSO offers.

However what mostly troubles me is when the OP says:
I have a Siglent sds1102 but not really happy with the speed and user interface, I guess the new 5000 series is much better...
You jump in with your standard anti Siglent memory management tirades as you commonly do and heavily pollute this thread just you have on numerous occasions.  :-//
Did you even consider the OP might be well aware of his old Siglents memory behaviour, somehow I doubt you did and just saw it as another good chance to have a good rant.  :rant:

It seems both reading posts and learning DSO memory management techniques are beyond you.  :-//
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Online Martin72

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Re: 350Mhz Scope, 2020
« Reply #67 on: May 07, 2020, 09:22:19 pm »
Siglent follows the way lecroy are handling the memory.
Rigol (surprise, surprise) does it to when the memory depth is setting to auto.
Apart from really special needs it´s normal behaviour.
So we should return to the first post of the thread starter.
Siglent got two mighty scope models in his pricerange, the sds5000x and the sds 2000x+.
Rigol too, but he want 10" screen therefore only the 7000 rigol range would be interesting.
For several reasons actually I won´t go for rigol models, siglent should be the choice when "pure" chinese scopes are interesting.
The Rode&Schwarz offering too less for the money, what RTB2000 series concerns.
Sure, it got 10" screen and higher screen resolution, but that is it at all.
Keysight and Tek I didn´t know really at all.


Offline 0xdeadbeef

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Re: 350Mhz Scope, 2020
« Reply #68 on: May 07, 2020, 09:48:15 pm »
The Rode&Schwarz offering too less for the money, what RTB2000 series concerns.
Sure, it got 10" screen and higher screen resolution, but that is it at all.
Keysight and Tek I didn´t know really at all.
Some might say it offers a 10bit ADC but there seem to be justified concerns if the RTB/RTM/RTA scopes by R&S are truly 10bit.
Trying is the first step towards failure - Homer J. Simpson
 
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Offline maginnovision

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Re: 350Mhz Scope, 2020
« Reply #69 on: May 07, 2020, 09:49:35 pm »
The Rode&Schwarz offering too less for the money, what RTB2000 series concerns.
Sure, it got 10" screen and higher screen resolution, but that is it at all.
Keysight and Tek I didn´t know really at all.
Some might say it offers a 10bit ADC but there seem to be justified concerns if the RTB/RTM/RTA scopes by R&S are truly 10bit.

I haven't heard about that, what are the justifications for the concerns?
 

Online Martin72

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Re: 350Mhz Scope, 2020
« Reply #70 on: May 07, 2020, 09:59:05 pm »
Plus the question, do I really need 10 bit...why and when….

Offline 0xdeadbeef

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Re: 350Mhz Scope, 2020
« Reply #71 on: May 07, 2020, 10:00:55 pm »
I haven't heard about that, what are the justifications for the concerns?
First of all, the higher end R&S offerings (like RTO2K) feature an 8bit ADC and use digital filtering to offer "up to 16bit" with reduced sampling rate. So it seems strange that the entry level scopes should offer a true 10bit ADC while the much more expensive models don't. I recently stumbled over a LeCroy document "Comparing High Resolution Oscilloscope Design Approaches" which goes in some detail how even the RTA4000 doesn't really provide 10bit noise performance. I'm fully aware that this document is written by a competitor but in contrast to the braindead Keysight marketing videos, it provides some technical background that seems to be valid to some degree.
Trying is the first step towards failure - Homer J. Simpson
 
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Offline maginnovision

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Re: 350Mhz Scope, 2020
« Reply #72 on: May 07, 2020, 10:07:44 pm »
The RTA/B/M are significantly newer so that just seems like conjecture if I've ever heard it. And saying the RTA doesn't offer 10 bit noise is also probably because the noise levels at higher levels can be worse than others. The old ENOB argument. That doesn't mean the ADC isn't 10 bits.
 
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Online Martin72

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Re: 350Mhz Scope, 2020
« Reply #73 on: May 07, 2020, 10:11:50 pm »
With the lecroy HDO6034A, we got a "true 12 Bit" scope plus a WR9054 ( 500Mhz, 8 bit).
Until now, I couldn´t detect any advantages between the both, 12bit vs 8bit.

 
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Offline maginnovision

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Re: 350Mhz Scope, 2020
« Reply #74 on: May 07, 2020, 10:16:12 pm »
With the lecroy HDO6034A, we got a "true 12 Bit" scope plus a WR9054 ( 500Mhz, 8 bit).
Until now, I couldn´t detect any advantages between the both, 12bit vs 8bit.

No but claiming the manufacturer is knowingly lying is a fantastic claim that requires proof, and if proven, companies typically have to pay to make things right.
 


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