Author Topic: 4 channel Keysight 1000x series scope  (Read 11122 times)

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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: 4 channel Keysight 1000x series scope
« Reply #50 on: December 30, 2018, 01:36:10 am »
Great  :-+ Any datasheet? I'm very curious to see whether Keysight has come up with something radically new which can stand up against the cheaper Chinese scopes or it is just meh.

Either way it is interesting Keysight went for a shared controls.
No time to look atm - they've done it similar to R&S, RGB LED to indicate which channel the vertical controls control
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Offline TK

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Re: 4 channel Keysight 1000x series scope
« Reply #51 on: December 30, 2018, 02:00:55 am »
If it is based on the same hardware / software as the 2 channel 1000X series, then I don't expect many changes except for the 1.5 additional channels (4 channel VS 2.5 channel)

The good news will be that the 1000X 2 channel software was hacked by one of the EEVBLOG forum members, so I assume the same hack technique can be applied to the new scope

Probably Keysight will release a single firmware for both 2 and 4 channel scopes on the 1000X series, like what they do with 2000X and 3000X
 

Offline ci11

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Re: 4 channel Keysight 1000x series scope
« Reply #52 on: December 30, 2018, 02:15:14 am »
Great  :-+ Any datasheet? I'm very curious to see whether Keysight has come up with something radically new which can stand up against the cheaper Chinese scopes or it is just meh.

Either way it is interesting Keysight went for a shared controls.
No time to look atm - they've done it similar to R&S, RGB LED to indicate which channel the vertical controls control

Looks pretty but seeing that KS went to the trouble of magnifying the 1mV/DIV to 500µV/DIV, I wonder what the actual noise performance is? Over the past year, I found the LeCroy HDO, R&S RTB / RTC / RTE / RTM all hover between 50µVrms and 100µVrms on actual testing with BWL on. Much to my surprise, none matched the SDS1104X-E at under 30µVrms despite all "Low Noise" claims in all their brochures.

When you have time, perhaps you can post µVrms and µVpp readings with  BWL off and BWL on? Screenshots be great too! Thanks.
 

Offline Carrington

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Re: 4 channel Keysight 1000x series scope
« Reply #53 on: December 30, 2018, 02:58:17 am »
... I'm very curious to see whether Keysight has come up with something radically new (with more memory) which can stand up against the cheaper Chinese scopes or it is just meh.
Just 1Mpts!
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Offline nctnico

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Re: 4 channel Keysight 1000x series scope
« Reply #54 on: December 30, 2018, 04:24:23 am »
... I'm very curious to see whether Keysight has come up with something radically new (with more memory) which can stand up against the cheaper Chinese scopes or it is just meh.
Just 1Mpts!
Which turns into 250kpts in a regular usage scenario with all channels on. I was hoping Keysight would finally see the light but I guess they are not.  :'( IMHO Keysight makes great oscilloscopes but the memory is just too small.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online Mr. Scram

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Re: 4 channel Keysight 1000x series scope
« Reply #55 on: December 30, 2018, 04:26:58 am »
Which turns into 250kpts in a regular usage scenario with all channels on. I was hoping Keysight would finally see the light but I guess they are not.  :'( IMHO Keysight makes great oscilloscopes but the memory is just too small.
I assume it's a limitation of the ASIC.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: 4 channel Keysight 1000x series scope
« Reply #56 on: December 30, 2018, 04:41:03 am »
Which turns into 250kpts in a regular usage scenario with all channels on. I was hoping Keysight would finally see the light but I guess they are not.  :'( IMHO Keysight makes great oscilloscopes but the memory is just too small.
I assume it's a limitation of the ASIC.
There probably is more memory in the ASIC but if Keysight enables that they'll eat into the higher end models. But still the ASIC is likely to be limited to 4Mpts (1MPts in real usage) so -sadly- that still is nothing compared to the competition.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline TK

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Re: 4 channel Keysight 1000x series scope
« Reply #57 on: December 30, 2018, 05:21:39 am »
... I'm very curious to see whether Keysight has come up with something radically new (with more memory) which can stand up against the cheaper Chinese scopes or it is just meh.
Just 1Mpts!
Which turns into 250kpts in a regular usage scenario with all channels on. I was hoping Keysight would finally see the light but I guess they are not.  :'( IMHO Keysight makes great oscilloscopes but the memory is just too small.
I am not completely sure but Keysight specifications are per channel.  I assume it is 1Mpts per channel.  On the 1000X series, it is 2GSa/s per channel with both channels active.  If they added a second ASIC for the additional 2 channels, then probably they can maintain 2GSa/s per channel with all 4 channels active
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: 4 channel Keysight 1000x series scope
« Reply #58 on: December 30, 2018, 06:05:44 am »
AFAIK Keysight specs are always total memory shared by 2 channels and double buffering so the actual amount of memory available in run mode is 1/4 of the specified memory. Add digital channels to a model and you are left with 1/8. This information is usually in the fine print of the datasheet or user manual.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2018, 06:08:54 am by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online Mr. Scram

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Re: 4 channel Keysight 1000x series scope
« Reply #59 on: December 30, 2018, 06:11:54 am »
There probably is more memory in the ASIC but if Keysight enables that they'll eat into the higher end models. But still the ASIC is likely to be limited to 4Mpts (1MPts in real usage) so -sadly- that still is nothing compared to the competition.
To be fair, if I look at the responsiveness of the GUIs of the competition they're still miles ahead. Bigger numbers aren't everything. I'm not too impressed by the new Rigol, for example. It seems very laggy in comparison to the ASIC of the Keysight oscilloscopes.
 

Offline Mr Nutts

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Re: 4 channel Keysight 1000x series scope
« Reply #60 on: December 30, 2018, 07:07:42 am »
... I'm very curious to see whether Keysight has come up with something radically new (with more memory) which can stand up against the cheaper Chinese scopes or it is just meh.
Just 1Mpts!

And according to the mouser website these scopes aren't exactly cheap:

DSOX1204A 2GS 70MHz: $998.00
DSOX1204G 2GS 70MHz: $1,204.00
DSOX1204A+D1200BW1A 2GS 100MHz: $1,348.00
DSOX1204G+D1200BW1A 2GS 100MHz: $1,554.00
DSOX1204A+D1200BW2A 2GS 200MHz: $1,698.00
DSOX1204G+D1200BW2A 2GS 200MHz: $1,904.00

 :-DD
 

Offline FERCSA

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Re: 4 channel Keysight 1000x series scope
« Reply #61 on: December 30, 2018, 09:06:47 am »
I didn't expect too much, but nice to see they pushed the bandwidth up to the maximum. They should do that with the sample rate too (2.5), because the BLT is capable and I bet they used the exactly same or very-very similar card. So the 1/4 of the specified memory is a real expectation.

Yes the GUI is very good, it was no brainer for me which want to choose when I compared to a rigol.. only two negatives: switching the trigger from one ch to another is a lot of button push, also reaching the segmented memories. These two what I use frequently, should be easier to reach, but heey I can't complain.

Btw love to see a serial output and some macros from the frontend, but probably nothing too exacting happening there.
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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: 4 channel Keysight 1000x series scope
« Reply #62 on: December 31, 2018, 12:02:21 am »
Internal shots.

A quick side-by-side comparison with the 1102 :
Bus and Ref buttons have moved to the Analyse menu
Has LAN interface, but remote front panel not yet implemented. PHY is SMC 8710A, so 100Mbit
Ridiculously long boot time - 55 secs v.21 on the 1102 - maybe still some debug code in there ? FW is V2.00
No WinCE license sticker on the back
Low-level noise performance identical.
Ref and FFT have dedicated size and position knobs, presumably to match the knob layout of the 1102. Not sire I like that these are on the left.
Still has external trig input on the back, but can no longer display it, which is as expected
The BLT board has gone to rev 3 but looks pretty much identical at first glance, apart from J104 now being fitted.
Might be interesting to swap into the 1102G...
« Last Edit: December 31, 2018, 12:11:06 am by mikeselectricstuff »
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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: 4 channel Keysight 1000x series scope
« Reply #63 on: December 31, 2018, 12:17:51 am »
The fan lead is now routed though the main PCB - when cold it runs at 6.4v, but this increases when some warm air is blown over the board.
It is noticeably quieter than the 1102.

One criticism of this is that they should run the fan up to full speed briefly at startup to overcome any bearing stickiness as it gets full of dust with age. 
« Last Edit: December 31, 2018, 12:21:35 am by mikeselectricstuff »
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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: 4 channel Keysight 1000x series scope
« Reply #64 on: December 31, 2018, 12:28:13 am »
It runs Linux
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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: 4 channel Keysight 1000x series scope
« Reply #65 on: December 31, 2018, 12:29:16 am »
Quote


U-Boot 2010.03.01.B.01-AUTOINC+48ceb543a1-tlo-production-release (Oct 12 2018 - 09:07:13)Keysight P500

CPU:   SPEAr600
DRAM:  128 MiB
Flash: 512 KiB
NAND:  fsmc-ecc1 linux oob ef da 256 MiB
In:    serial
Out:   serial
Err:   serial
SerNum:serial number not programmed
Chip:  BD Board Rev: 4
Last address in xloader: 8d4421a3
Power-on reset
Setting watch dog timer to 45 seconds, count 0x29209080
Press space to stop autoboot:  0

NAND read: device 0 offset 0x180000, size 0x400000
 4194304 bytes read: OK

 ## Checking Image at 02000000 ...
   Legacy image found
   Image Name:   linux
   Created:      2018-10-12   8:46:27 UTC
   Image Type:   ARM Linux Kernel Image (uncompressed)
   Data Size:    3625377 Bytes = 3.5 MiB
   Load Address: 02000000
   Entry Point:  02000040
   Verifying Checksum ... OK
 ## Booting kernel from Legacy Image at 02000000 ...
   Image Name:   linux
   Created:      2018-10-12   8:46:27 UTC
   Image Type:   ARM Linux Kernel Image (uncompressed)
   Data Size:    3625377 Bytes = 3.5 MiB
   Load Address: 02000000
   Entry Point:  02000040
   XIP Kernel Image ... OK
OK

Starting kernel ...

Uncompressing Linux... done, booting the kernel.

tlo 2.4 k-dx1204g-67301 ttyAMA0

k-dx1204g-67301 login:
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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: 4 channel Keysight 1000x series scope
« Reply #66 on: December 31, 2018, 12:49:55 am »
This does raise questions about whether they will move any of the other current products to Linux, or reserve it for new models only - seems like it would be a lot of work to test all the old hardware.
ISTR one issue is that when MS discontinued CE Embedded, KS wouldn't be allowed to just buy more licenses to ship existing products. 

Let's hope they can get that boot time under better control - 55 secs is just unacceptable IMO.

and no, login with root/root doesnt work..!
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Offline FERCSA

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Re: 4 channel Keysight 1000x series scope
« Reply #67 on: December 31, 2018, 01:49:17 am »
Linux is a big twist and looks like they populated the missing connector on the BLT module for the 2 extra channel. Any chance you have a copy of the fw? or maybe u'd make one with jtag?

Just speculation, but looking at the fw number (FW2.00) maybe they roll it out to the 2ch models too. We have 1.10 now. A quick look at the frontend and it's kind of the same, the layout differ a little bit at the top, around the LMH6552, but nothing else. Should be everything compatible.

Choosing the SMC 8710A was obvious, (common) u-boot already supports it. Also included in the source code for the spear600 EB.

login with root/root doesnt work..!

what about skywalker? like on the 2000/3000 series.
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Offline hv222

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Re: 4 channel Keysight 1000x series scope
« Reply #68 on: December 31, 2018, 03:45:02 am »
Skywalker was working with 2ch. 1000x scopes. Maybe it's possible change file what contains root password while linux installation.

BLT board looks identical like in 2ch version. Unmounted connector J104 in 2ch version was handling Ethernet and extra USB. I don't expect that they change BLT board pinout.
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: 4 channel Keysight 1000x series scope
« Reply #69 on: December 31, 2018, 04:01:44 am »
There is a 10 pin header on the main board that has the serial lines (tx on 3 and rx on 1 from memory), not looked at what else is on there.

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Offline TK

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Re: 4 channel Keysight 1000x series scope
« Reply #70 on: December 31, 2018, 04:49:33 am »
How is the UI responsiveness compared to the Windows CE based scopes?
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: 4 channel Keysight 1000x series scope
« Reply #71 on: December 31, 2018, 05:51:45 am »
How is the UI responsiveness compared to the Windows CE based scopes?
Not played extensively but didn't see any obvious difference. I doubt the UI has much to do with the OS.
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Online TheSteve

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Re: 4 channel Keysight 1000x series scope
« Reply #72 on: December 31, 2018, 06:22:46 am »
Now we know what OS Keysight will be using going forward on what will likely be many products. It isn't the first time they have used linux, I wonder if MS will regret their silly license rules. The boot time on devices like the 3446x series of bench meters was also a minute when they were released with WinCE, thankfully they were able to optimize it to half that a few months after release.
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Offline Harjit

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Re: 4 channel Keysight 1000x series scope
« Reply #73 on: December 31, 2018, 11:52:14 am »
 

Offline LapTop006

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Re: 4 channel Keysight 1000x series scope
« Reply #74 on: December 31, 2018, 12:13:02 pm »
Let's hope they can get that boot time under better control - 55 secs is just unacceptable IMO.

It's pretty well known how to make Linux boot through to running app code in just a few seconds ().

Hopefully Keysight have some good Linux people (I know *HP* had some excellent ones, sadly all retired or left) to do the Linux side of things, although the scope app itself was often not that quick to start and may well be where most of the time is spent.
 


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