Author Topic: 4 channel Keysight 1000x series scope  (Read 18654 times)

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Offline TheSteve

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Re: 4 channel Keysight 1000x series scope
« Reply #100 on: March 22, 2019, 08:28:36 am »
Firmware for the DSOX1204x series is now posted on the Keysight website. As this scope runs linux it should be interesting to take a peak at.

Version 2.01
https://www.keysight.com/main/software.jspx?ckey=3023906&id=3023906&nid=-32110.1258590&lc=eng&cc=US

Release notes:

Enhancements
- The following Frequency Response Analysis (FRA) enhancements were added:
o The sweep frequency range is no longer limited to decade values – it can now be
set to any frequency within the WaveGen’s limits.
o The “points per decade” setting has been changed to “total points” for ease of use.
o FRA Chart:
 Minor gridlines for the horizontal axis are now shown to improve readiblity
of the plot.
 The chart’s horizontal display range is now independent of the Start/Stop
Frequency setting in the Setup Menu.
- Boot-up time was reduced.
- Improved the color constrast for Channel 3 and Channel 4’s waveform persistence.
- Miscellaneous LAN enhancements.
Bug Fixes
- Fixed missing “Time Reference” softkey.
- Fixed an unused softkey briefly appearing in the Pattern Trigger menu.
- Fixed an issue of the inverted channel mode not displaying the waveform correctly in
Averaging Mode.
VE7FM
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: 4 channel Keysight 1000x series scope
« Reply #101 on: March 22, 2019, 09:56:34 am »
- Boot-up time was reduced.
Was 58 seconds, now 32 secs
1102G : 21 secs
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Offline TK

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Re: 4 channel Keysight 1000x series scope
« Reply #102 on: March 22, 2019, 12:58:54 pm »
I am curious about how much hardware it shares with the 2-channel 1000X scopes... no teardown yet?
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: 4 channel Keysight 1000x series scope
« Reply #103 on: March 22, 2019, 06:14:27 pm »
I am curious about how much hardware it shares with the 2-channel 1000X scopes... no teardown yet?
It's been surprisingly quiet.
 

Offline extide

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Re: 4 channel Keysight 1000x series scope
« Reply #104 on: March 22, 2019, 06:27:38 pm »
Well, Mike has one and he has posted internal pics earlier in this thread. It is based on the same hardware platform as the 1002X series scopes, very similar platform. I don't know if anyone has done a video tera down, though.
 

Offline Housedad

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Re: 4 channel Keysight 1000x series scope
« Reply #105 on: March 22, 2019, 07:54:44 pm »
Please excuse my ignorance, but what does the acronym BLT mean for that board?
« Last Edit: March 22, 2019, 08:09:02 pm by Housedad »
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Offline Housedad

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Re: 4 channel Keysight 1000x series scope
« Reply #106 on: March 22, 2019, 09:20:01 pm »
Internal shots.

A quick side-by-side comparison with the 1102 :
Bus and Ref buttons have moved to the Analyse menu
Has LAN interface, but remote front panel not yet implemented. PHY is SMC 8710A, so 100Mbit
Ridiculously long boot time - 55 secs v.21 on the 1102 - maybe still some debug code in there ? FW is V2.00
No WinCE license sticker on the back
Low-level noise performance identical.
Ref and FFT have dedicated size and position knobs, presumably to match the knob layout of the 1102. Not sire I like that these are on the left.
Still has external trig input on the back, but can no longer display it, which is as expected
The BLT board has gone to rev 3 but looks pretty much identical at first glance, apart from J104 now being fitted.
Might be interesting to swap into the 1102G...

I found an interesting article written by Daniel Bogdanoff about the making of an ASIC.  There is a picture of the same one you show in the article (revision 2 instead of 3) but it does not have the heat sinks on the chips.  In case you want to see them.

Thanks for a great read, Daniel!

https://www.electronicdesign.com/test-measurement/making-asic-secret-building-good-cheap-oscilloscope


« Last Edit: March 22, 2019, 09:23:44 pm by Housedad »
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Offline Housedad

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Re: 4 channel Keysight 1000x series scope
« Reply #107 on: March 22, 2019, 09:33:04 pm »
I am curious about how much hardware it shares with the 2-channel 1000X scopes... no teardown yet?

Dave did a teardown of the DSOX1102G in March 2017.  You can see  in the chassis holes the future planning for the DSOX1204G.  Comparing Mikes pictures of the 1204 with the EEVblog teardown of the 1102,  the Main boards are labeled different.  DSOx1000AG vs DSOX1004AG.  It seems the 1004 board is a bit more complex.



« Last Edit: March 22, 2019, 09:55:31 pm by Housedad »
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Offline oPossum

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Re: 4 channel Keysight 1000x series scope
« Reply #108 on: March 22, 2019, 09:46:38 pm »
Please excuse my ignorance, but what does the acronym BLT mean for that board?

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Online tv84

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Re: 4 channel Keysight 1000x series scope
« Reply #109 on: May 12, 2019, 12:59:01 pm »
Firmware for the DSOX1204x series is now posted on the Keysight website. As this scope runs linux it should be interesting to take a peak at.

Shouldn't be mission impossible to devise workarounds... ;)

The .ksx is a initrnamfs file which can be easily opened with 7zip decompressor.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2019, 09:26:22 pm by tv84 »
 

Offline ci11

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Re: 4 channel Keysight 1000x series scope
« Reply #110 on: November 30, 2019, 10:30:52 pm »
Would someone who owns or uses a 4ch 1000X confirm if its automatic measurements also include statistics of these measurements, like min, max, current, mean, std dev, count etc? This was mentioned in the 1000X datasheet as "Measurements continuously updated with statistics" on page 19 but not mentioned at all in the User's Guide. I also have not noticed it from any demos, reviews or YouTubes I've seen.

Thank you.
 

Offline extide

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Re: 4 channel Keysight 1000x series scope
« Reply #111 on: December 01, 2019, 11:20:33 pm »
Upon a quick check it looks like no, but I could be missing it somewhere..
 
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Offline ci11

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Re: 4 channel Keysight 1000x series scope
« Reply #112 on: December 02, 2019, 12:08:32 am »
Thank you for checking.

If stats were there, they would be somewhere buried in the measurement menu tree. I checked the user's guides of the 1000X, 2000X and 3000X and it is only referenced in the 3000X, and it is actually there on the scope. Funny it would be in the datasheets but not in the manuals or the machines.

Upon a quick check it looks like no, but I could be missing it somewhere..
 

Offline TK

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Re: 4 channel Keysight 1000x series scope
« Reply #113 on: March 22, 2020, 01:38:16 am »
Firmware for the DSOX1204x series is now posted on the Keysight website. As this scope runs linux it should be interesting to take a peak at.

Shouldn't be mission impossible to devise workarounds... ;)

The .ksx is a initrnamfs file which can be easily opened with 7zip decompressor.
There is a 128 byte sw-description.sig file.  Anyone knows how it is generated?  It is different on each install package (.ksx)
 

Offline TK

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Re: 4 channel Keysight 1000x series scope
« Reply #114 on: March 22, 2020, 01:56:23 am »
 

Offline jemangedeslolos

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Re: 4 channel Keysight 1000x series scope
« Reply #115 on: March 30, 2020, 09:33:45 am »
I own the EDUX1002G, then purchased MSO5074 from Rigol... for me, it is not near the usability of the Keysight... it can be hacked to have tons of features, but it is slow and the serial protocol decoding a toy.  I am about to return it

The EDUX1002G hacked and with some hardware mods can have 2.5 channels and it is a pleasure and fun to use.  The Rigol is giving me headaches, you don't know what you are getting from the scope, you are always wondering if what is showing is accurate or not.

Do you have specific example ?
It is not so easy to have scope on loan without losing money and I am open minded so if it is possible to have examples. I am interested.
I am also interested in what you criticize for the serial decoding on the Rigol ?
Before receiving a shitstorm on my head, I specify that I am really interested to know in what the Keysight is superior on these aspects.
I am not here to support Rigol, just to have examples from real life.

Thank you :)
 

Offline martinot

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Re: 4 channel Keysight 1000x series scope
« Reply #116 on: July 08, 2020, 08:34:45 am »
I think Spear600 is old compared to new CPUs running faster and with more cores and Probably the old Windows CE was a better fit.  That is why I asked about the responsiveness as it seems Linux is heavier and the same reason for it to take 1 min to boot might impact on the performance of the scope app

I checked out the otherwise great new black scopes in the 1000x series, and the boot time is still (with latest 2020-06 firmware) awfully much slower than the old versions with Windows. I do not blame HP as they probably had no choice due to Microsoft's decisions, but half a minute boot to operation with the Linux scopes is not very good. I wish it had been 15-20 seconds like the old scopes. Much more acceptable.
 

Offline martinot

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Re: 4 channel Keysight 1000x series scope
« Reply #117 on: July 08, 2020, 08:41:56 am »
I think Spear600 is old compared to new CPUs running faster and with more cores and Probably the old Windows CE was a better fit.  That is why I asked about the responsiveness as it seems Linux is heavier and the same reason for it to take 1 min to boot might impact on the performance of the scope app
Linux doesn't have to be heavier. That is nonsense. Also the boot time of a Linux system is defined by the speed of the flash being used. Put a Sata SSD in an embedded Linux system and it wil start in seconds. Besides that the oscilloscope likely does a quick self test during starting.

Not nonsens. You do not know any clue at all what you talk about. Your the one talking total nonsense and bull shit.

1. A low end scope normally do not have the same powerful hardware as a desktop PC.
2. It is to expensive (for this low end market) to but a desktop SSD in the scopes. Totally unrealistic. The Windows scopes did OK boot time with the current (non SSD) storage in the scopes.
4. It is not enough to boot just the OS. You also need to load the scope application. No "flash of light" here with the Linux scopes; more slow like molasses.
5. The old white Windows scopes also did self test during power on (like all normal scopes) during boot time. Nothing new for the Linux scopes here (besides being slower).

 

Offline martinot

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Re: 4 channel Keysight 1000x series scope
« Reply #118 on: July 08, 2020, 08:50:41 am »
I think Spear600 is old compared to new CPUs running faster and with more cores and Probably the old Windows CE was a better fit.  That is why I asked about the responsiveness as it seems Linux is heavier and the same reason for it to take 1 min to boot might impact on the performance of the scope app
Linux doesn't have to be heavier. That is nonsense. Also the boot time of a Linux system is defined by the speed of the flash being used. Put a Sata SSD in an embedded Linux system and it wil start in seconds. Besides that the oscilloscope likely does a quick self test during starting.
What I meant is that PROBABLY the specific Linux distro in use is heavier than Windows CE on the SPEAR600 that the Keysight scope uses. 

I know it can be made to boot in 10 seconds like the R&S or the Micsig TO1000 scopes, probably by using some battery backed memory to keep persistent code and data in memory saved for the next boot.  I wonder if R&S scope takes longer to boot after a firmware update or the update process per se stores certain code & data in persistent memory.

But if they decided to go with the 60 seconds boot time, then there must be hardware limitations on the current SPEAR600 + flash + ASIC interface to implement specific techniques like smartphones or tablets.

The R&S are always fast. They don't use linux either.

Yes, I prefer scopes like R&S which boots much faster.

R&S uses freeRTOS or something similar (it's listed in the open source acknowledgement thing). The boot time is always fast, and i don't think it saves anything between boots to do it. Definitely nice to have it that quick but I think Linux is also a reasonable choice if optimised well - boot times aren't everything.

Boot time is not everything, but it's clear that scopes with Linux is generally much slower to boot compared to scopes with more optimized systems. Might be some scopes who manages to boot fast with Linux (given more expensive hardware), but those I have seen has ben slow as molasses.

The good thing is that the "fatter" Linux OS on the black 1000-series at least seems to work as normal as the old white Windows scopes, one it's booted. That is the important thing for me (I really hate the slow user interface scopes from China and Taiwan).

Slow boot time is irritating (especially as older versions has been better), but it is not critical. Quick GUI and responsiveness are the critical things.
 

Offline martinot

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Re: 4 channel Keysight 1000x series scope
« Reply #119 on: July 08, 2020, 08:57:59 am »
I own the EDUX1002G, then purchased MSO5074 from Rigol... for me, it is not near the usability of the Keysight... it can be hacked to have tons of features, but it is slow and the serial protocol decoding a toy.  I am about to return it

The EDUX1002G hacked and with some hardware mods can have 2.5 channels and it is a pleasure and fun to use.  The Rigol is giving me headaches, you don't know what you are getting from the scope, you are always wondering if what is showing is accurate or not.

Looked at the Rigol scopes as well, and I can only agree with your assessment. Really nice hardware (nothing to complain at all) and really low price, but not very polished or optimized software wise.

And ugly as hell!  :-DD
 

Online 2N3055

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Re: 4 channel Keysight 1000x series scope
« Reply #120 on: July 08, 2020, 09:50:18 am »
I own the EDUX1002G, then purchased MSO5074 from Rigol... for me, it is not near the usability of the Keysight... it can be hacked to have tons of features, but it is slow and the serial protocol decoding a toy.  I am about to return it

The EDUX1002G hacked and with some hardware mods can have 2.5 channels and it is a pleasure and fun to use.  The Rigol is giving me headaches, you don't know what you are getting from the scope, you are always wondering if what is showing is accurate or not.

Do you have specific example ?
It is not so easy to have scope on loan without losing money and I am open minded so if it is possible to have examples. I am interested.
I am also interested in what you criticize for the serial decoding on the Rigol ?
Before receiving a shitstorm on my head, I specify that I am really interested to know in what the Keysight is superior on these aspects.
I am not here to support Rigol, just to have examples from real life.

Thank you :)

TK managed to achieve some 50000 triggers per second on Keysight 1000 triggering on 50 MHz SPI signal.
At first try Rigol MSO5000 couldn't go faster than some 3000. But after some discussion, and by setting the scope to Auto memory management (that is what Keysight does anyways) he managed to get it to capture 50000 triggers too..

His opinion of accuracy I have no idea where it comes from. It can only be more accurate on many measurements by virtue of 100x more memory and full memory measurements.

Problem is that 50000 SPI triggers on KS 1000 is USELESS, mostly. It can record maximum 50 segments, so you can capture first 50 of 50000 segments and the rest  is lost. OTOH, MSO5000/7000/8000 and Siglent can actually capture all 50000 captures and save each for
later analysis. And I don't know about you but  I can't read 50000 decodes per second by reading it from the screen in real time anyways. Getting slow with age, sorry..
Not to mention literally 10 times more analysis options on Rigol and Siglent. And that you can capture first and decode later without need to recapture because you forgot to enable decode or a setting was wrong.

There are many people that are seduced by idea that KS 1000 series is somehow smaller and cheaper, but basically almost equally powerful as 3000 series. They are nothing alike. KS 1000 is deliberately severely limited not to step on 2000 series which is also very limited subset of 3000A series. Cheapest scope that is very nice from Keysight is 3000A series, and a 3000T is a step up, being basically 4000 with smaller touch screen and only one ch of siggen. 3000/3000T have less memory and smaller screen than contemporary competition, but they are capable machines that hold their ground still. Not good choice for deep memory types of tasks, but probably best G.P. scope currently. My opinion.

1000 and 2000 are just pathetic, because 500 USD Siglents are so much more powerful. Compared with MSO5000 and Siglent SDS2000X+ they  are just sad... That being said, that is if you use scope as a digital scope should  be used, by using built in measurements, analysys, decodes etc..

If you use scope in a same manner you would use analog scope, counting divisions on screen and occasional use of cursors and such, and  want scope to to be optimized for button twiddling speed, than those 1000 and 2000 series Keysights are going to be just fine. That is literally their target market: big brand, deliberately low on features (marketed as: easy to use), and made NOT to feel like digital scope as possible (again marketed to analog scope replacement crowd).  If  you want that (nothing wrong with it) and if you are willing to pay for it, perfect choice.

It is equivalent of Ferrari branded Fiat 500 sized car with all the visual Ferrari stuff, special exhaust that makes it sound angry. And whole 60 HP.
So in a parking lot full of Fiats, you will be noticed. Fact that it is in fact slower than Fiat 500 Abarth, makes no difference. Because you're not going to race it. You will use to go to grocery store in style every day, really. And that  is fine, really. Nothing wrong with it.
Until you get delusional that since your car says Ferrari on the back, that means it is faster, better or in any way better value that Honda Civic type R or Golf GTI or whatnot, that costs the same.
It's not. That doesn't mean that for your (limited?) use case you will not enjoy every minute of driving it and be very happy with your purchase.
Because it is PERFECT for your priorities as a buyer.

« Last Edit: July 08, 2020, 09:51:51 am by 2N3055 »
 
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Online tv84

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Re: 4 channel Keysight 1000x series scope
« Reply #121 on: July 08, 2020, 01:30:25 pm »
Sinisa, this should be a sticky! 
 
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Offline TK

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Re: 4 channel Keysight 1000x series scope
« Reply #122 on: July 08, 2020, 04:04:42 pm »
I own the EDUX1002G, then purchased MSO5074 from Rigol... for me, it is not near the usability of the Keysight... it can be hacked to have tons of features, but it is slow and the serial protocol decoding a toy.  I am about to return it

The EDUX1002G hacked and with some hardware mods can have 2.5 channels and it is a pleasure and fun to use.  The Rigol is giving me headaches, you don't know what you are getting from the scope, you are always wondering if what is showing is accurate or not.

Do you have specific example ?
It is not so easy to have scope on loan without losing money and I am open minded so if it is possible to have examples. I am interested.
I am also interested in what you criticize for the serial decoding on the Rigol ?
Before receiving a shitstorm on my head, I specify that I am really interested to know in what the Keysight is superior on these aspects.
I am not here to support Rigol, just to have examples from real life.

Thank you :)

TK managed to achieve some 50000 triggers per second on Keysight 1000 triggering on 50 MHz SPI signal.
At first try Rigol MSO5000 couldn't go faster than some 3000. But after some discussion, and by setting the scope to Auto memory management (that is what Keysight does anyways) he managed to get it to capture 50000 triggers too..

His opinion of accuracy I have no idea where it comes from. It can only be more accurate on many measurements by virtue of 100x more memory and full memory measurements.

Problem is that 50000 SPI triggers on KS 1000 is USELESS, mostly. It can record maximum 50 segments, so you can capture first 50 of 50000 segments and the rest  is lost. OTOH, MSO5000/7000/8000 and Siglent can actually capture all 50000 captures and save each for
later analysis. And I don't know about you but  I can't read 50000 decodes per second by reading it from the screen in real time anyways. Getting slow with age, sorry..
Not to mention literally 10 times more analysis options on Rigol and Siglent. And that you can capture first and decode later without need to recapture because you forgot to enable decode or a setting was wrong.

There are many people that are seduced by idea that KS 1000 series is somehow smaller and cheaper, but basically almost equally powerful as 3000 series. They are nothing alike. KS 1000 is deliberately severely limited not to step on 2000 series which is also very limited subset of 3000A series. Cheapest scope that is very nice from Keysight is 3000A series, and a 3000T is a step up, being basically 4000 with smaller touch screen and only one ch of siggen. 3000/3000T have less memory and smaller screen than contemporary competition, but they are capable machines that hold their ground still. Not good choice for deep memory types of tasks, but probably best G.P. scope currently. My opinion.

1000 and 2000 are just pathetic, because 500 USD Siglents are so much more powerful. Compared with MSO5000 and Siglent SDS2000X+ they  are just sad... That being said, that is if you use scope as a digital scope should  be used, by using built in measurements, analysys, decodes etc..

If you use scope in a same manner you would use analog scope, counting divisions on screen and occasional use of cursors and such, and  want scope to to be optimized for button twiddling speed, than those 1000 and 2000 series Keysights are going to be just fine. That is literally their target market: big brand, deliberately low on features (marketed as: easy to use), and made NOT to feel like digital scope as possible (again marketed to analog scope replacement crowd).  If  you want that (nothing wrong with it) and if you are willing to pay for it, perfect choice.

It is equivalent of Ferrari branded Fiat 500 sized car with all the visual Ferrari stuff, special exhaust that makes it sound angry. And whole 60 HP.
So in a parking lot full of Fiats, you will be noticed. Fact that it is in fact slower than Fiat 500 Abarth, makes no difference. Because you're not going to race it. You will use to go to grocery store in style every day, really. And that  is fine, really. Nothing wrong with it.
Until you get delusional that since your car says Ferrari on the back, that means it is faster, better or in any way better value that Honda Civic type R or Golf GTI or whatnot, that costs the same.
It's not. That doesn't mean that for your (limited?) use case you will not enjoy every minute of driving it and be very happy with your purchase.
Because it is PERFECT for your priorities as a buyer.
You are missing one very important point, the idea is not to capture all 50000 packets with a scope to do an analysis.  A logic analyzer is better suited for such capture and analysis.  The point I was trying to make is that by triggering 50000 times, it can capture a specific event and the Siglent will probably miss it.  That is the whole point of using the protocol analyzer on the scopes.  My SPI test setup has a user button enabled that sends a specific packet 0x3F when pressed, and 0x37 when not pressed.  The KS gets it almost on every click, but the siglent misses a lot of them, the SDS1104X-E that I tested missed like 80-90% of them.  Even the GDS-1054B can trigger on 90-100% of the time, the siglent is very slow handling serial decoding and triggering.
 
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Online 2N3055

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Re: 4 channel Keysight 1000x series scope
« Reply #123 on: July 08, 2020, 06:31:24 pm »
You are missing one very important point, the idea is not to capture all 50000 packets with a scope to do an analysis.  A logic analyzer is better suited for such capture and analysis.  The point I was trying to make is that by triggering 50000 times, it can capture a specific event and the Siglent will probably miss it.  That is the whole point of using the protocol analyzer on the scopes.  My SPI test setup has a user button enabled that sends a specific packet 0x3F when pressed, and 0x37 when not pressed.  The KS gets it almost on every click, but the siglent misses a lot of them, the SDS1104X-E that I tested missed like 80-90% of them.  Even the GDS-1054B can trigger on 90-100% of the time, the siglent is very slow handling serial decoding and triggering.

When scope is armed and waiting for trigger (in Normal not Auto mode), it will trigger instantaneously. It is literally waiting to pull the trigger. It is retriggering that is questionable, once it triggers and finishes the sweep, it will take time to rearm. That rearm time is very fast on Keysight, also very fast on new Rigols , and a bit slower on Siglent. And because of it, Keysight might trigger on every packet and Siglent might not be ready for next one and miss it...

For that kind of use you don't even need to have decoding enabled. You just trigger on SPI packet when it happens. You know what it shows already, you set the trigger. You will see visual confirmation of packets coming.

For that kind of work, i would press button few times, enable decode and go trough history to see what I got.
Also for button verification, I might connect button to one channel an trigger on it. And would be able to measure latency from button press/release and SPI packet...

As I said for interactive, analog like work Keysight is very good.  But you can do so much more with MSO5000 or SDS2000X+.
If you're willing to learn new ways of accomplishing things, that is...
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: 4 channel Keysight 1000x series scope
« Reply #124 on: July 08, 2020, 10:55:28 pm »
Thank you for checking.

If stats were there, they would be somewhere buried in the measurement menu tree. I checked the user's guides of the 1000X, 2000X and 3000X and it is only referenced in the 3000X, and it is actually there on the scope. Funny it would be in the datasheets but not in the manuals or the machines.
Statistics were also on the 2000X I checked a while back. Nothing in the manual but I suspect it got added in firmware but the manual was not updated.
 


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