EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
Products => Test Equipment => Topic started by: aristarchus on August 01, 2020, 06:32:55 pm
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In this year, 2020, we have seen the explosion of the NanoVNA devices, creazy cheap VNAs for the masses.
Hugen, a pioneer in the area brought earlier the NanoVNA-H and NanoVNA-H4 and TinySA spectrum analyzer in quality packaging with cases, cables, bags, etc, complete products.
Now, he announced another package, a NanoVNA V2 (3GHz) with 4 inch screen, N-tyoe RF connectors, case, cables, bag, neatly packaged.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001267696890.html (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001267696890.html)
We are definitively live in very good VNA times! Lots of options from many developers, open source, and VFM that we could not even dream in the past.
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That does look nice, very nice, but..
I really see what Gabriel says about how he seems to perhaps be selling his stuff below his own cost for some reason. I have very mixed feelings.
Who is he, does he ever participate in these forums?
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Brand new store with 0 feedback. Price just seems too good. Otherwise I'd considering ordering for comparison (playing around).
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Hugen is well known in the NanoVNA world.
He is there long before others like Gabriel come in, in fact Gabriel took ideas and was based on the work of edy555, cho45 and hugen79.
https://github.com/ttrftech/NanoVNA (https://github.com/ttrftech/NanoVNA)
https://github.com/cho45/NanoVNA (https://github.com/cho45/NanoVNA)
https://github.com/hugen79/NanoVNA-H (https://github.com/hugen79/NanoVNA-H)
Have a look at here
https://nanovna.com/ (https://nanovna.com/)
Hugen's github
https://github.com/hugen79 (https://github.com/hugen79)
Hugen has a store in Taobao named NanoLab, only recently he came to Aliexpress
Here is his announcement today on this new Aliexpress store, in the famous nanovna-users group in groups.io
https://groups.io/g/nanovna-users/message/15943 (https://groups.io/g/nanovna-users/message/15943)
I guess lots of people do not know the story behind nanovna and how this market evolved, that happens since here they read only one specific vendor/developer, Gabriel.
I hope the above could shed some light to everyone.
Myself is not affiliated in any way, I just happen to got a NanoVNA-H4 and was surprised by the quality, packaging and completeness of Hugen's work and product thus I do recommend it.
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I've noticed the selling price for these expensive boat anchor VNAs on ebay seems to be falling fast.
Maybe I am just imagining it :)
I'd like to see similar values in ham gear. The manufacturers who are selling their own bootleg copies of open source projects lke the mcHF trasceivers are still way too expensive for most people.
The price of used ham equipment is almost as high as new gear.
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Hugen is well known in the NanoVNA world.
Thanks, I had seen his name mentioned a few times in a positive way.
It is very tempting to this one because of the nice presentation...
I'm going to try resist as I already have a recently purchased NanoVNA V2, now with a 4" screen. I also have a hardly used xavna.
Good to see him selling on AliExpress. Dealing with Taobao is a bit too hard. Maybe I'll look at his store again when the next generation is released.
I've also joined nanovna-users on groups.io - so thanks for that link, not that I have any spare time to read another mailing list.
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Wow. 3 GHz VNAs now cost $70. Dogs are sleeping with cats, Donald Trump is the President of the United States, Star Wormwood blazes in the east, and a cow has been born with two heads.
I just want things to go back to normal.... :scared:
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hugen very seldom gets into any of the back and forth on the forums regarding any of his products. He lets his reputation and designs do the talking through feedback from user's who are satisfied with his products.
I very much doubt he would engage in any intentional unethical behavior. One of his US distributers was pricing hugen's version of the SAA-2 at a price that was $10 below market. It turned out that distributor was was offering a LOWEND SAA-2 with RG316 cables and a $10 higher priced HIGHEND SAA-2 with SS405 cables. Nothing unethical about offering the customer a choice if they are only planning on using the SAA-2 up to 1.5GHz.
The same US distributor used some wording Gabriel disagreed with and she called the distributor unethical. Again it was a unintentional mistake by a well respected ham store, R&L Electronics. As soon as they learned of the error, R&L changed the boilerplate wording which was text other Asian manufacturers are still using.
I bought one of the original SAA-2's from Tindie, as did several members of my Ham club. It is an innovative product and outside of its UI, is independent of Edy555's original design. Customer loyalty, however, on goes so far and presented with a choice between two products that have similar performance the pocket book generally decides.
I just ordered hugen's 4" SAA-2N because I believe it is a better value than the current Tindie offering. Some of my other club members did the same. hugen's packaging, metal enclosure, relocation of the buttons from the awkward location between the connectors, 4" display and type N connectors are more in line with how I will be using the SAA-2N. Hugen was very upfront in his planned announcement of the SAA-2N, "There is no innovation, just a new shell."
Gabriel has said that if not enough sells of the V2 are generated at the Tindie store then it could jeopardize development of a future follow-on 6GHz product. If I was interested in 6GHz operation I would definitely take that into consideration when making a purchase. Neither I or any of my ham club members have interests above 3 GHz so that was not a consideration in any of our current purchases. I suggested to Gabriel's OEM seller that they have fallen behind some of the other manufacturer's who offer a complete package of battery, shell, and accessories. The reply I received was that a battery is not a technical innovation. While true, it certainly weighed in on several of my club member's decision, along with the other factors, when they made their decision to purchase hugen's SAA-2N.
Hugen and edy555 before him, have had to contend with the same flood of marketers using their open source design. That's just the nature of the Asian market. hugen has stayed ahead of the curve by making his offerings stand out with distinctive packaging and in the case of the SAA-2N, being first with a 4" offering. Since the Tindie store was first to market, I would have thought the opposite would be true.
Hugen also asked Gabriel for permission to manufacture and sell his SAA-2 offering, and if any royalty arrangement was required. I wonder how many other Asian manufacturers extended the same courtesy.
I wish much success to Gabriel and her sponsors with V2 and any future products, but the open source model is a tough one. I would do like the current v.3x NanoVNA-F and the new tinySA product: release the firmware opensource and delay releasing the hardware schematics until a return on investment is realized. It won't stop the Asian cloners but it should slow them down long enough for your product to establish a foothold.
Just my opinion, which with a dollar might get you a cup of coffee.
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hwalker,
While I agree with most of what you wrote, I bought from Tindie, possibly paying more than I could have, in an effort to support the people who put the work in; cheap clones are always a crap shoot and I've been burned once too often to keep buying junk.
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Gandalf_Sr,
I also have more Asian crap in my desktop drawer than I care to admit. I am responsible for evaluating new products for purchase by my ham club so I tend to do a lot of research before making any recommendations. I ordered the SAA-2 when it was originally offered for sell on Tindie. I recommended it for purchase by other members of my club. At the time it was the only game in town.
I remember asking Gabriel about the funding of the V2. At the time she said her company was only contracted and paid for the design work. She said once the contract was complete her only involvement would be to help find a distributor and train QA for the product. It almost sounded like some benevolent benefactor had contracted her company to design the V2 and have it distributed at a cost the masses could afford. I often wondered who that benefactor was.
In any event, I make my current purchase recommendations based on merit rather than supporting any particular seller. The Tindie offering is not the complete package you would expect at this stage in its production run. Both hugen's current 4" SAA-2N and the 3.2" offering by another another seller come with metal cases, battery, and accessories. The snap together plastic case and missing battery on Tindie offering pale by comparison. User reviews of the 3.2" offering and Hugen's 2.8" offering have been positive. 5 members of my ham club own hugen's current 2.8" version, and our performance comparisons against the original Tindie purchases have not shown any measurable difference.
Gabriel has said there are bad clones out there, and she has also said that those manufactures that follow her GitHub specifications are producing units with acceptable performance. If you buy from other than the Tindie store then you need to do your homework. In my case, I have been able to compare hugen's offering with the Tindie store offering so I have no qualms about recommending his product based on its performance and complete packaging. If the situation were reversed, I would be recommending the Tindie store offering. hugen is no fly-by-nighter selling cheap junk. I doubt if he would ever sully the reputation he's worked so hard to achieve by doing so.
If the V2 was a commercial offering and its copyright was being violated by other sellers, I would never make a recommendation of purchasing from any source except from the OEM. If a design is released as open source then its hard after the fact to ask for anything - other than recognition as the designer. Edy555's situation as the designer of the original NanoVNA should have been a warning to any opensource project following him. He has not profited to the extent you would think he should have - other than endorsements
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I think Hugen did ask eddy555 to setup store on ebay or other platform and resell his offerings, and hugen would take care of all the backend and shipping. He is trying to find ways to compensate the original creators. With his pricing, the margin is not that high per piece also.
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:palm:
V2 was completely designed by a team of HCXQS and OwOComm engineers from scratch and not based on the original NanoVNA. Only HCXQS funds the development team, and the original developers will not see a single cent if you buy from others. Others simply took our PCB design and put a different enclosure around it, they did not have to do any of the work designing the RF PCB layout, so naturally they can focus their effort on the enclosure and get to a 4 inch version faster. The official store does not include a battery because it is a fire hazard.
There were far more shady business practices that I initially kept silent about, like generating fake order traffic on taobao to get his product ranked to the top and take over all taobao sales, dumping units at cost under other names to Aliexpress distributors, dumping units at cost to former distributors of official devices, hostile over-buying of components to deplete stock and prevent anyone else from getting them, etc etc. I have not specifically called him out on nanovna-users to give him "face".
Open source hardware is dead, and people killed it by promoting a clone manufacturer who operates on shady business practices as if they are somehow official. I have no objections with clones existing, if they play fair and don't try to corner my client. I have less objections to his current 4 inch design than I had with his PCB sandwich V2 design (which was put together in a hurry to flood the market as quickly as possible). We would really like open source hardware to work, but it is clear now that this isn't working. Anyway I hope hugen does not go on this forum, and don't repost what I wrote to nanovna-users or nanovna-v2 on groups.io.
I have a full story of the history of NanoVNA in another post: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/oshw/making-oshw-design-a-viable-occupation-the-oshw-product-introducer/msg3162864/#msg3162864 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/oshw/making-oshw-design-a-viable-occupation-the-oshw-product-introducer/msg3162864/#msg3162864)
TL;DR: I don't have any problems if you go buy his 4 inch version with N connectors. But don't mislead user into thinking he developed the V2 like the first post does.
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@aristarchus: Please, at least edit your original post because it is extremely misleading to users.
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I bought my regular V2 through Tindie and yeah, maybe it doesn't have all the nice Hugen tweaks, but I prefer to support the real developers and I got it really fast. Some coworkers who also do radio hobby stuff have been waiting a month or more for their clones to ship.
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:palm:
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There were far more shady business practices that I initially kept silent about, ...,
hostile over-buying of components to deplete stock and prevent anyone else from getting them, etc etc.....
No wonder nobody seems to have the correct 4 inch displays for sale ! Lots of almost, but when you get to ordering they're not available or 3.5 inch, or no touch.
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@owo, I think people would like to buy SAA2 from your endorsement as much as possible, at least I am speaking for myself. But most of us already got a few nanovna (3 for myself) and can afford to wait for a complete one with as good enclosure as possible, with or without battery is fine as we can load in a battery later. For me, I find many engineers want to make and sell what they want people to buy, But not what people actually want to buy. My next nanovna need to have better spec, at least a 4inch LCD, must have a proper enclosure.
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They have the acrylic enclosure that is fully enclosed which I designed. For the 4 inch version we are considering paying someone here to do the enclosure design, since my enclosure design skills do not go much beyond laser cut acrylic stuff. Also a metal enclosure worsens isolation between ports, that's why we aren't going that direction.
I don't care so much where you buy from, but what I do care about is when people (especially intentionally like the OP) talk about the V2 as if it's hugen's design. No, he ripped off our client and played foul business practices, and users have the audacity to praise him.
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@owo, I think people would like to buy SAA2 from your endorsement as much as possible, at least I am speaking for myself. But most of us already got a few nanovna (3 for myself) and can afford to wait for a complete one with as good enclosure as possible, with or without battery is fine as we can load in a battery later. For me, I find many engineers want to make and sell what they want people to buy, But not what people actually want to buy. My next nanovna need to have better spec, at least a 4inch LCD, must have a proper enclosure.
Exactly this. The product packaged by Hugen linked above (4" screen, battery, enclosure, N connectors, cables, carry bag, etc) is basically a finished product at a really good price.
While some will prefer SMA connectors, it is otherwise what people will want over an incomplete/lesser product for only a small discount. Most buyers wont care if it is a clone as long as it works. Some wont even care if it doesn't perform as well as the original. And some others will only ever buy the cheapest option anyway.
Edit: I just saw your post recommending against metal enclosure. I hate laser cut acrylic enclosures. It would be great if you could offer a matching 3D printable enclosure - either free download, or get them printed in China and add a small profit margin. That is surely still cheaper and less hassle than getting printed in the West for those without access to a 3D printer. It should not be hard to find someone who could handle the 3D design - maybe if no one here can help then you could reach out to Naomi Wu for suggestions as she seems to have good contacts.
Please also keep in mind that some of us will want to help support your ongoing work through direct donations if there was some way for us to do that.
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And based on the cost of N type connectors, cables, and cal kit, taking into account the 8% Aliexpress fee he is selling very close to cost. I'm sure once he drives everyone else out of business he will jack the price right up. NanoVNA-H has a profit margin of over 3x, his V2 has a margin of less than 1.2x. He can do that because he did not foot any R&D costs. This isn't proper competition and even the shenzhen clones don't use such aggressive tactics.
I think my client is still doing fine at this point, as long as users don't do them a disfavor by promoting these sellers like the OP does, or at least credit us or our client.
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I don't take donations because I'm personally doing fine, but with the way things are going in 2020 I'm concerned for the future of open source hardware because I'm now seeing everyone close their designs left and right, and we will be pressured to do the same. Another developer that I'm unrelated to have resorted to close sourcing their firmware even though that's violating the GPL. It looks like the days of being able to run a business selling open source hardware are behind us, now even if you sell at a reasonably low margin the aggressive players will fight tooth and nail for their monopoly status.
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Such is the nature of open source. You will get some who contribute to everyones benefit, sometime in wonderful ways. And there will be others who just try to profit from, and maybe even take credit for, your hard work - without any actual contribution. It has pretty much been like this forever. They may even provide a negative contribution if they tarnish your "brand" - look what happened to the Unix brand thanks to SCO/Caldera. The main thing is to try avoiding doing that to yourself.
About all you can do is keep iterating and improving on the hardware design, as you seem to be. Cloners could end up with excess stock of an older design when the new one comes out, killing their magins. The Arduino brand is a "good" example of how this can/does work with open source hardware, although they've made some rather bizzare missteps along the way. What happened with Arduino clones has possibly hurt resellers as much as anyone.
The extra support I mentioned could be going to HCXQS rather than you personally if that is where it is needed. It is a pity stores are not allowed to set up a tip jar or similar on Tindie. I'm sure there are some other ways we could help to keep HCXQS "encouraged" despite the clones should it become needed.
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About all you can do is keep iterating and improving on the hardware design, as you seem to be. Cloners could end up with excess stock of an older design when the new one comes out, killing their magins. The Arduino brand is a "good" example of how this can/does work with open source hardware, although they've made some rather bizzare missteps along the way. What happened with Arduino clones has possibly hurt resellers as much as anyone.
You are right, that is what we are trying to do now with the upcoming V2-N (now renamed to V2 Plus to avoid confusion) that will increase sweep rate and lower noise. We will end up offering battery + 3D enclosure like everyone else. At this point we and our client are both doing fine, but we need to think of a better way to avoid new versions just getting cloned immediately. MiniVNA seems to do just fine even with clones allegedly performing better than official devices, I wonder how they pull that off.
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the upcoming V2-N (now renamed to V2 Plus to avoid confusion)
Oh yay... |O
that will increase sweep rate and lower noise
Cool - I am looking forward to that. :-+
Also gives me an incentive to save my pennies right now for something I actually need - a higher bandwith current clamp (Micsig CP2100B).
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Unfortunately, in eevblog so far we see only OwO posting and this person's opinion.
Regardless, I guess Hugen 'speaks' with the quality and completeness of his products.
BTW, it is totally unfair IMHO, when OwO is trying to show as an original idea product and everyone else is a cloner.
In the NanoVNA area, everybody knows that edy555, cho45 and hugen79 are the pioneers, edy555 has the original idea active since 2016. Everybody is reusing with modifications their initial concept, the opensource github firmware, methodology, PC applications and PC to device comunication protocol.
I completely understand, although not my liking, why a newcomer in 2020 like OwO wants to twist that, it is ..good business practice ;)
In any case, after starting working in my life, now I'm in my fifth decade in business and markets, I've seen enough and witnessed enough to have my own opinion on who is honest and who tries to deceive in a particular situation.
For you OwO, I do not know who HCXQS is or who you are or what business relationship you have and to be honest I'm not interested to read it in a forum post where everyone writes whatever without proof. If your products are good then they will 'speak' about you.
I do like the idea that nowadays devices are insanely cheap and Hugen's got an excellent packaging. This packaging is where you need to focus. Just dont give half finished gizmos, pay attention to detail and quality like Hugen does.
Then your product will shine and stand out. Its up to you.
Aristarchus.
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In the NanoVNA area, everybody knows that edy555, cho45 and hugen79 are the pioneers, edy555 has the original idea active since 2016. Everybody is reusing with modifications their initial concept, the opensource github firmware, methodology, PC applications and PC to device comunication protocol.
V2 is designed from scratch and not based on the original NanoVNA. https://www.rtl-sdr.com/nanovna-version-2-0-first-pcb-pictures-released-nanovna-naming-credit-clarifications/ (https://www.rtl-sdr.com/nanovna-version-2-0-first-pcb-pictures-released-nanovna-naming-credit-clarifications/)
Only the firmware is derived from the NanoVNA firmware, all DSP and VNA math are rewritten and only the UI is kept.
With people confusing facts like you do, the only option we have left is closing the hardware design, not letting hugen on it at all, and then you'll have "evidence" who's the original.
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As I said OwO, let your product speak for you.
You did took parts from the earlier designs, you did reused modified firmware and software and most of all, you did came in a market where others there before you paved the way and taking R&D costs.
That is not bad, it always happen, just make your product a quality one as Hugen did.
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You mention quality. The reason I was irritated at first was because people come to our support forum to complain about defective devices, and it turns out they were hugen's devices:
https://groups.io/g/NanoVNA-V2/topic/v2_will_not_power_on/75511802?p=,,,20,0,0,0::recentpostdate%2Fsticky,,,20,2,0,75511802 (https://groups.io/g/NanoVNA-V2/topic/v2_will_not_power_on/75511802?p=,,,20,0,0,0::recentpostdate%2Fsticky,,,20,2,0,75511802)
https://groups.io/g/nanovna-users/topic/nanovna_v2_won_t_turn_on/75764552?p=,,,20,0,0,0::recentpostdate%2Fsticky,,,20,2,20,75764552 (https://groups.io/g/nanovna-users/topic/nanovna_v2_won_t_turn_on/75764552?p=,,,20,0,0,0::recentpostdate%2Fsticky,,,20,2,20,75764552)
youtube.com/watch?v=4Y1x43vbVgA
He's sold about the same amount of V2 devices as HCXQS has, and there are zero reports of defective devices from HCXQS in the wild compared to 3 for hugen, most likely because HCXQS generally resolves all customer disputes and will replace defective devices. Others seem to let their customers deal with troubleshooting and fixing devices themselves.
This crap drags down the reputation of V2 devices as a whole, and sometimes we have to deal with the extra support burden as well. HCXQS support replied in that thread offering to replace the device if it is genuine, but what do they get? attacked for bringing up the subject of clones vs original.
It's not the clones that's killing open source hardware. It's the community and a few bad actors.
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About all you can do is keep iterating and improving on the hardware design, as you seem to be. Cloners could end up with excess stock of an older design when the new one comes out, killing their magins. The Arduino brand is a "good" example of how this can/does work with open source hardware, although they've made some rather bizzare missteps along the way. What happened with Arduino clones has possibly hurt resellers as much as anyone.
You are right, that is what we are trying to do now with the upcoming V2-N (now renamed to V2 Plus to avoid confusion) that will increase sweep rate and lower noise. We will end up offering battery + 3D enclosure like everyone else. At this point we and our client are both doing fine, but we need to think of a better way to avoid new versions just getting cloned immediately. MiniVNA seems to do just fine even with clones allegedly performing better than official devices, I wonder how they pull that off.
The MiniVNA is a commercial device, so like the Agilent and National Instrument USB-GPIB interfaces that have been cloned by Asian manufacturers, most honest people and businesses will not purchase an illegal device - so sells are still generated from those sources.
The situation is not the same with open source, if someone manufacture's an open source design you cannot claim they are doing anything illegal so fewer people have qualms about purchasing a cloned device if the performance meets their requirements.
You could do like the tinySA and the new NanoVNA-F models and only release the firmware open-source to slow down the cloning until you earned a return on your investment. The open source model probably only works well for individuals who are looking to share their designs and for personal recognition. For someone anticipating selling their project to make a profit the model doesn't make sense. In that case I would choose another vehicle where I retained all rights.
I don't know about your claims against hugen, I guess thats between you and him. I do know that he asked you on the NanoVNA groups.io forum if it was OK to sell a SAA-2 product based on your open source design and you told him to go for it. In the same message he asked who should he contact regarding royalty payments and you did not ask for any. I also know you accused a well respected US seller of shady business practices over an honest mistake, instead of first contacting them and asking them to correct the mistake - which they later did of their on accord. There are always two sides to a story.
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It should be pretty obvious to you why we are reluctant to enter into any cooperation agreement with him. If things like faking order traffic and anticompetitive behavior are not beyond him, what's to say he'll report the correct royalty amounts? It's one thing to manufacture and sell someone else's open source design, it's another to try to put the original developers under so you can profiteer later.
One of the developers you mentioned: I do not want to call them out, but their current model is to violate the GPL and release binary-only firmware, doctored in some way to run only on official devices. It would be fair game if they developed the firmware from scratch.
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Anyway I'm not telling you to only buy official devices, and I'm not trying to stop clones' sales in some way. I'm simply asking the community to get the narrative straight, and not to deceive users about who is credited with V2 design. OwOComm, HCXQS, edy555, and countless other contributors like DiSlord all deserve credit, but please do not credit a clone manufacturer with the design.
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@OwO,
I do not think that anyone did that.
I have not seen any post either here or in the nanovna groups that someone appart from edy555 has any credit for original design, it is mentioned in the githubs too though.
Everybody so far with whatever changes did always mention edy555 for credit.
Only you keep insisting that you have something like a 'modified original design' and everybody else is a cloner.
Just try to make your products (which are derivatives of edy555's work and others who followed him) with as good quality as Hugen did, that is all at least I am saying.
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Anyway I'm not telling you to only buy official devices, and I'm not trying to stop clones' sales in some way. I'm simply asking the community to get the narrative straight, and not to deceive users about who is credited with V2 design. OwOComm, HCXQS, edy555, and countless other contributors like DiSlord all deserve credit, but please do not credit a clone manufacturer with the design.
Gabriel,
I looked at aristarchus's original post and see that he only directs reader's to hugen's AliExpress store which say's:
"3GHz vector network analyzer, designed by OwOComm, under the LGPL license agreement, it is completely manufactured according to the v2_2 files issued by OwOComm at https://github.com/nanovna/S-A-A Development Department, in line with the original technical specifications designed by OwOComm."
That doesn't sound like a deception about who the design belongs to. Its more of a deception that when hugen asked for your permission to manufacture a V2 based on your open source project and you gave your OK, for you now to turn around and say he stole your design.
You are a terrific designer but your marketing leaves something to be desired. You will lose respect if you continue to tear down and bad mouth your competition instead of just continuing to develop superior products that keep you ahead of the crowd.
Other manufactures are able to include batteries in their products because they perform the necessary MDS testing to do so. They don't tell half truths about not being able to include a battery because of safety reasons.
Hugen has two products that use 4" displays with a 3rd in development for the tinySA project. Its no wonder that he has purchased a large stock to support those products.
You back up your claim that he is producing "crap" with a post from a user on nanovna groups.io who decided to repair his own unit rather than ask hugen for a replacement. That does not infer hugen would not have rendered customer support if asked. On the contrary if you looked at other posts on groups.io where customers had problems with the NanoVNA-H4 casing, hugen was quick to address the problem to each customer's satisfaction.
I think Tindie was not the ideal choice for distributing your design. At one point they threatened to no longer sell overseas because of negative reviews. Think how many sells that probably cost you. Your V2 design is innovative, but whoever directs the marketing dropped the ball. As much thought that was put into the design should also have been put into the packaging. If you set the V2 side by side with current 3.2" V2 or the recent releases by hugen, the Tindie offering is the one that looks like a clone in comparison. You have no distinctive logos or labeling that let buyers identify the product. Its no wonder some buyers are confused when making a purchase.
If you believe hugen is manipulating statistics on Alibaba unfairly then why not complain to them? In an open forum like this it just sounds like griping.
Hopefully the marketing issues will be corrected in your upcoming releases. The community as a whole always wishes you well. Its probably time to leave the open source experiment behind. Open source hardware should be like open source software and not used as a vehicle for a commercial venture. Just my humble opinion.
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Agree, we will probably close source future designs (for a limited time). Enough debating for now, let's leave the issue to rest.
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I've been reading up on low cost VNAs generally, and its possible to trace their development- basically they all build on each other's previous work. All technology is like that now.
Maybe the open source model is the correct one? I certainly think it is better than the all closed model. Microprocessors now make it possible to do so much more with less.
The story of the mcHF QRP transceiver is particularly challenging to figure out.
Designed in the UK by a British ham starting around 2012 or so, now a mature product. Now being widely copied by (Chinese?) manufacturers. (Its quite overpriced I suspect, if you buy it from them.) I'd rather build it myself!
What do people think about that? I think an open hardware platform, if its acknowledged to be open, I dont have any problem with manufacturers competing to make parts of it better. As long as they contribute improvements back into the source.
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Agree, we will probably close source future designs (for a limited time). Enough debating for now, let's leave the issue to rest.
Sounds like a plan to me Gabriel. Whatever disagreements we may have I truly respect your hardware and firmware design skills. Its a very rare skill set for one person to have. I hope OwOComm appreciates your contributions. The rest of us certainly do.
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...
In the NanoVNA area, everybody knows that edy555, cho45 and hugen79 are the pioneers, edy555 has the original idea active since 2016. Everybody is reusing with modifications their initial concept, the opensource github firmware, methodology, PC applications and PC to device comunication protocol.
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Yes... and nanoVNA architecture was copied from 2007 DG8SAQ VNWA (Manufactured by SDR-Kits). Just changed two DDS with the Si5351, but the reflection bridge and downconverter components are a direct copy.
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I was reading an old article in QEX a few days ago about it and I noticed that the older unrelated "NanoVNA" family used similar (widely available) compoenents.
Yes... and nanoVNA architecture was copied from 2007 DG8SAQ VNWA (Manufactured by SDR-Kits). Just changed two DDS with the Si5351, but the reflection bridge and downconverter components are a direct copy.
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Well, with this VNWA cost nowadays from £339.00 to £564.00, I'm really very happy that some eastern guys manage to have a similar product from 30 to 70 bucks having additional an LCD.
That looks like a miracle to me.
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Me too, I very much agree.
Well, with this VNWA cost nowadays from £339.00 to £564.00, I'm really very happy that some eastern guys manage to have a similar product from 30 to 70 bucks having additional an LCD.
That looks like a miracle to me.
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Well, with this VNWA cost nowadays from £339.00 to £564.00, I'm really very happy that some eastern guys manage to have a similar product from 30 to 70 bucks having additional an LCD.
That looks like a miracle to me.
Oh, and this is not unfair? VNWA is not an open design, it's novel architecture was published at QEX, but never for commercial use . VNWA3 schematics are not even published to avoid chinese ripoffs, it's a commercial design they have copied, and you are talking about fairness and chinese pioneers :-DD
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@eb4fbz
I could not care less when overpriced closed source products that are more than a decade old get phased away.
From what I know, those eastern NanoVNA guys wrote their own firmware, software, did their own boards, added great new features and delivered a real wonder at cheap prices for everybody.
You say that they took some component from an earlier decade long design, so what! everybody is doing that. You say that Tek, keysight, rigol, siglent, lecroy, etc they do not do it themselves ? :-DD
If you ask me who has offered more and helped us better then I say those eastern guys.
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He got "attacked" because he pushed FUD and his responses showed no self reflection. I was (temporary) banned for pointing out
uncontroversial facts about GPL. Most people want you and consequently them to succeed and you did a fairly good job of mitigating the
damage but they need to work on their PR and business plans. I have zero confidence in buying from them: If they ban people on a public
forum what can I expect in a support email?
This crap drags down the reputation of V2 devices as a whole, and sometimes we have to deal with the extra support burden as well. HCXQS support replied in that thread offering to replace the device if it is genuine, but what do they get? attacked for bringing up the subject of clones vs original.
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Gabriel did not do that, you on the other hand claimed that she ripped of edy555 which is not true and should be
fairly self evident from the design. Even the design process has been quite open, Gabriel discussed it on the NanoVNA group
while it was still in alpha stage.
Don't muddy the waters, it is already bad enough with all the confusion.
Only you keep insisting that you have something like a 'modified original design' and everybody else is a cloner.
Just try to make your products (which are derivatives of edy555's work and others who followed him) with as good quality as Hugen did, that is all at least I am saying.
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Apart the 'originator' and 'beneficiary' discussion, does somebody already collect experience withe the device resp. the whole kit?
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Apart the 'originator' and 'beneficiary' discussion, does somebody already collect experience withe the device resp. the whole kit?
I received the SAA-2N package from the Zeenko store on Ali Express (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001267696890.html) today. After messing with it for an hour or so, I want to believe that this is some kind of obscure exercise in market manipulation or dumping, sold at a small fraction of cost. Because if it's not... wow. Pack up the tent, they win.
I don't have time to write a long-winded review, and I don't know/care anything about the politics or the debate regarding who ripped off what, but: get one. It performs amazingly well all the way to 3 GHz, even without calibration. Basically 80% of a FieldFox N9912A VNA at less than 1% of the price.
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It's a great design. Does anyone know if the 4" display and metal case is available as an upgrade? I already have the SMA version. I won't buy a complete new unit as I will wait for the new improved version. Even better a 7" display..
If not perhaps it's possible to design one to use a readily available enclosure like a Hammond extruded or diecast box 1455 or 1590 series.
Mike
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If you add a metal case, be sure to check if it still meets the performance specifications with the case. There is a real chance it will degrade the port isolation unless you also add some RF absorber material to deal with reflections. Has anyone tested how the 2N version does in that regard?
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If you add a metal case, be sure to check if it still meets the performance specifications with the case. There is a real chance it will degrade the port isolation unless you also add some RF absorber material to deal with reflections. Has anyone tested how the 2N version does in that regard?
(http://www.ke5fx.com/IMG_1281.jpg)
On this one, crosstalk at 3 GHz is about -55 dB uncalibrated or about -60 dB when calibrated. I haven't taken it apart yet but I'd be surprised if the housing is responsible for much of that.
Edit: added photo with calibration enabled:
(http://www.ke5fx.com/IMG_1285a.jpg)
In any case, if -60 dB at 3 GHz isn't enough for you, you should probably spend more than $70 on your network analyzer. :o
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Unfortunately, in eevblog so far we see only OwO posting and this person's opinion.
Regardless, I guess Hugen 'speaks' with the quality and completeness of his products.
BTW, it is totally unfair IMHO, when OwO is trying to show as an original idea product and everyone else is a cloner.
In the NanoVNA area, everybody knows that edy555, cho45 and hugen79 are the pioneers, edy555 has the original idea active since 2016. Everybody is reusing with modifications their initial concept, the opensource github firmware, methodology, PC applications and PC to device comunication protocol.
I completely understand, although not my liking, why a newcomer in 2020 like OwO wants to twist that, it is ..good business practice ;)
In any case, after starting working in my life, now I'm in my fifth decade in business and markets, I've seen enough and witnessed enough to have my own opinion on who is honest and who tries to deceive in a particular situation.
For you OwO, I do not know who HCXQS is or who you are or what business relationship you have and to be honest I'm not interested to read it in a forum post where everyone writes whatever without proof. If your products are good then they will 'speak' about you.
I do like the idea that nowadays devices are insanely cheap and Hugen's got an excellent packaging. This packaging is where you need to focus. Just dont give half finished gizmos, pay attention to detail and quality like Hugen does.
Then your product will shine and stand out. Its up to you.
Aristarchus.
you should first study what the original edy555 design was and what the original SAA-2 was (designed by OwO) before making these comments...first gain some knowledge about the internals of these devices
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On this one, crosstalk at 3 GHz is about -55 dB uncalibrated or about -60 dB when calibrated. I haven't taken it apart yet but I'd be surprised if the housing is responsible for much of that.
That may be mostly noise floor and not leakage. But looks maybe a bit worse than mine.
Here is a measurement with the 2.8'' SMA tindie version, both ports terminated into 50ohms, 100 measurements averaged. SOLT calibration, but no isolation correction.
[And the same with a short at port 1 to check for leakage from the reflection path (doesn't seem to be much of an issue).]
Note that I still can't really resolve leakage below 1.5GHz even with 100 averages. Considering the low-cost construction this is really impressive. It also means that there is potential for improving the dynamic range significantly by decreasing the noise floor (which is promised for the upcoming version).
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If you add a metal case, be sure to check if it still meets the performance specifications with the case. There is a real chance it will degrade the port isolation unless you also add some RF absorber material to deal with reflections. Has anyone tested how the 2N version does in that regard?
(http://www.ke5fx.com/IMG_1281.jpg)
On this one, crosstalk at 3 GHz is about -55 dB uncalibrated or about -60 dB when calibrated. I haven't taken it apart yet but I'd be surprised if the housing is responsible for much of that.
In any case, if -60 dB at 3 GHz isn't enough for you, you should probably spend more than $70 on your network analyzer. :o
In any case, if -60 dB at 3 GHz isn't enough for you, you should probably spend more than $70 on your network analyzer. :o
LOL
+1
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In any case, if -60 dB at 3 GHz isn't enough for you, you should probably spend more than $70 on your network analyzer. :o
In any case, if -60 dB at 3 GHz isn't enough for you, you should probably spend more than $70 on your network analyzer. :o
LOL
+1
good point to notify us.. attached is noise floor for KC901V. comparing with picture from switchatbl, they are not far off, maybe spending more than $2K if even lower noise is needed :o btw, i'm browsing aliexpress for Nano 3GHz 2N with 4" LCD but with SMA connection at the bottom (more convenient for my setup... or top? is there setting to rotate view?) with SMA cal kit and coax set, but it seems like no model for that, only N connector as in OP. if possible i dont want to play more with N adapter i want to "uniformified" my setup to all SMA to reduce cost of cal kit, adapter etc in long run... anyone know such version? i actually dont need another N-cal kit, its useless to me. if there is no direct SMA connection, then its ok with OP version i already have a few N to SMA adapters, but having another SMA cal kit and cables will be nicer i can make comparison among them with Kirkby cal kit, which is much better than $1 hung low 50 ohm version.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/4-inch-display-saa-2n-nanovna-v2-3ghz-with-n-type/?action=dlattach;attach=1060428;image)
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1970s HP8754A with doubler is roughly -60dB at 2.7GHz.
***
In case others chime in I should explain that this was with a 12dBish drive signal (measured +12.05). I normally just adjust the output power until the system has a stable lock. At 2.7GHz, the test set will loose another 12 dB or so. The doubler I am using is a Mini-Circuits FK3000 which has an additional loss of 12-17.5.
https://www.minicircuits.com/pdfs/FK-3000+.pdf (https://www.minicircuits.com/pdfs/FK-3000+.pdf)
By the time the signal reached port 1, it's greatly attenuated. Attached plot showing the measured level at -15.4dB. The drive strength will factor into the leakage and I just want to make it clear that the 8754A with this setup is a fairly low signal.
Some time ago, we were looking at various construction techniques when building attenuators from discrete components. I built up a multi-stage 50dB attenuator and show it on the 8754A. This is really pushing the old VNA.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/20db-rf-attenuator-seeking-feedback-to-improve/msg2904942/#msg2904942 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/20db-rf-attenuator-seeking-feedback-to-improve/msg2904942/#msg2904942)
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i bite the bullet and just make an order from tindie with SMA solt and cables to prove my support to the original pcb designer (OwwO), hopefully it is moddable to 4" LCD and ask how to do the FW programming, and i will build a setup rig for it, for my purpose... enough with nanovna browsing, time is of an essence for another project...
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i bite the bullet and just make an order from tindie with SMA solt and cables to prove my support to the original pcb designer (OwwO), hopefully it is moddable to 4" LCD and ask how to do the FW programming, and i will build a setup rig for it, for my purpose... enough with nanovna browsing, time is of an essence for another project...
That's the one I bought; look back at my posts to see how I changed it to 4" display.
I have to say that the original 3.2"? LCD was close to unreadable for my old eyes, the 4" display I fitted is really good and I have no problems using it now. I haven't got around to printing my 3D case for it yet though :(
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thanks.. to avoid hijacking this thread, i just post it there (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/nanovna-v2-aka-s-a-a-2/msg3223822/#msg3223822)...
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Isolation on the new boat anchor. Output at 0dB.
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Hello Everyone,
Nice thread. With a lot of effort I recently purchased a megiq VNA, which is a little bit more expensivehttps://www.megiq.com/products/vna-0460e (https://www.megiq.com/products/vna-0460e). And I been impressed in how bad some of my RF products are (antennas, video transmitters and telemetry radios for hobby drones).
It came to my mind that a side by comparison would be very interesting -at least for me-, I'm happy to share some results. I just need a little help finding who is best supplier of the latest NanoVNA V2, so much information everywhere and so little time. Anyone? ;D
Warmly,
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Main NanoVNA V2 thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/nanovna-v2-aka-s-a-a-2/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/nanovna-v2-aka-s-a-a-2/)
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Hello Everyone,
Nice thread. With a lot of effort I recently purchased a megiq VNA, which is a little bit more expensivehttps://www.megiq.com/products/vna-0460e (https://www.megiq.com/products/vna-0460e). And I been impressed in how bad some of my RF products are (antennas, video transmitters and telemetry radios for hobby drones).
It came to my mind that a side by comparison would be very interesting -at least for me-, I'm happy to share some results. I just need a little help finding who is best supplier of the latest NanoVNA V2, so much information everywhere and so little time. Anyone? ;D
Warmly,
For US
http://www.randl.com/shop/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=15_8620&products_id=75212 (http://www.randl.com/shop/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=15_8620&products_id=75212)
http://www.randl.com/shop/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=15_8620&products_id=75242 (http://www.randl.com/shop/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=15_8620&products_id=75242)
Aliexpress
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001267696890.html (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001267696890.html)
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Google search "nanovna v2". I recommend waiting for the V2 plus4 which will have much faster sweep and improved dynamic range.
R&L and most aliexpress sellers are selling clones which do not support the original developers, and may not be compatible with the official firmware. Someone reported inaccuracies in S21 measurements on the unofficial nanovna v2 forum: https://groups.io/g/NanoVNA-V2/topic/a_problem_with_saa_2n/76758957
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Google search "nanovna v2". I recommend waiting for the V2 plus4 which will have much faster sweep and improved dynamic range.
R&L and most aliexpress sellers are selling clones which do not support the original developers, and may not be compatible with the official firmware. Someone reported inaccuracies in S21 measurements on the unofficial nanovna v2 forum: https://groups.io/g/NanoVNA-V2/topic/a_problem_with_saa_2n/76758957
when do you expect that V2 plus4 to come out?
oh, and will it have a case? and at least 4" display (or larger)?
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Google search "nanovna v2". I recommend waiting for the V2 plus4 which will have much faster sweep and improved dynamic range.
R&L and most aliexpress sellers are selling clones which do not support the original developers, and may not be compatible with the official firmware. Someone reported inaccuracies in S21 measurements on the unofficial nanovna v2 forum: https://groups.io/g/NanoVNA-V2/topic/a_problem_with_saa_2n/76758957 (https://groups.io/g/NanoVNA-V2/topic/a_problem_with_saa_2n/76758957)
when do you expect that V2 plus4 to come out?
oh, and will it have a case? and at least 4" display (or larger)?
you can go to the provided link for https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/nanovna-v2-aka-s-a-a-2/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/nanovna-v2-aka-s-a-a-2/) discussion. this thread is specifically for 4 inch display SAA-2N NanoVNA V2 3GHz with N-type clone. in that thread there 4-7" LCD upgrade.
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I think it is here! Anyone got one yet?
https://www.tindie.com/products/hcxqsgroup/4-nanovna-v2-plus4/ (https://www.tindie.com/products/hcxqsgroup/4-nanovna-v2-plus4/)
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Just waiting for it to arrive.
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Looks potentially great:
https://nanorfe.com/nanovna-v2-user-manual.html
Looking forward to user reports!
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Feb 1966 Popular Electronics, "I'm studying this manual on transistors."
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Just ordered one, slow shipping as it sounds like using DHL would invite paying a DHL tax in addition to HMRC's (and my other recent purchases from china have been pretty speedy, touch wood).
Has already shipped, will report once it arrives.
Also, should move the plus4 chat to the non-clone thread maybe?
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I opted for the $25 DHL shipping - they incentivize that by including an 18650 rechargeable battery - I think that, for some reason, DHL will allow a single, fitted, battery to be included in the package but Speedpost won't.
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I compiled a recent version (2020-10-13) of the firmware for the SAA-2N if anyone is interested.
Edit: Removed the firmware. Look like there's some kind of bug where you can observe 1dB jump on S21. I recommend using the V2.74 blackmagic firmware with the SAA-2N. Can be found here: https://nanorfe.com/nanovna-versions.html (https://nanorfe.com/nanovna-versions.html).
Not sure what's the difference between the official Nanovna V2 firmware and the blackmagic one.
With custom firmware:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/4-inch-display-saa-2n-nanovna-v2-3ghz-with-n-type/?action=dlattach;attach=1093254;image)
With blackmagic firmware:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/4-inch-display-saa-2n-nanovna-v2-3ghz-with-n-type/?action=dlattach;attach=1093258;image)
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I found some interesting documents on how to calibrate the SAA-2N. Most interestingly, the settings for the calibration standards are provided.
Edit: They were a error for the L3 and C3 value for the male calibration standard settings for NanoVNA-Saver. Make sure you use L3=-489.64 and C3=-616.87. FYI, the author of those documents is posting on groups.io/g/NanoVNA-V2.
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I've got a NanoVNA SAA-2N from Zeenko, and a V2 Plus 4 from Tindie (on order). I'm a retired EE and know the massive amount of effort and creativity that goes into these and I wanted to support both sides of the development from Hugen to OwO.
Anyway, I tried to find the nice RG142 cables that come with the SAA-2N, wasn't successful so ordered a couple N type RG142 cables from eBay. Long story short, don't waste your money |O
For those of you that have the SAA-2N version and want additional RG142 cables like those that come with the SAA-2N, after requesting these a number of times from Zeenko and they are now available :-+
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001824041694.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.40694c4dXWwBnR (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001824041694.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.40694c4dXWwBnR)
Best,
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I looked on Tindie and couldn't find any on sale.
Is there a newer version of the NanoVNA that I should be looking for?
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I looked on Tindie and couldn't find any on sale.
Is there a newer version of the NanoVNA that I should be looking for?
https://www.tindie.com/products/hcxqsgroup/ (https://www.tindie.com/products/hcxqsgroup/)
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I get an error saying Tindie can't find that page.
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Try this one: https://www.tindie.com/stores/hcxqsgroup/ (https://www.tindie.com/stores/hcxqsgroup/)
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Thanks, that link did work, but the they're out of stock. I'll sign up to be notified when they're available again.