Author Topic: 500 MHz+ 4 channel Oscilloscope recommendation. MSO8000 any good?  (Read 3950 times)

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Offline dmg

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I need a recommendation for a 500 MHz+ 4 channel oscilloscope below $10K. It needs to have a good memory depth, compatibility with active probes and 50 ohm termination mode. It's basically going to be used to capture and debug serial buses, check clocks and such common stuff.

So far i'm looking for Rigol MSO8000 series (BW upgradeability to 2GHz is a plus) and the Siglent SDS5000. I'd prefer the rigol, which barely fits the budget, but they're too new and I'm aware of early firmware issues on Rigol scopes.

Any recommendation?
 

Online 2N3055

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Re: 500 MHz+ 4 channel Oscilloscope recommendation. MSO8000 any good?
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2019, 08:43:14 am »
What country?

There are many choices at that price range.

- Rohde & Schwarz RTM3K-COM4 Promotion 1GHz RTM3000 series fully loaded- decent choice of active probes, but no used ones..
- LeCroy might have interesting stuff - very good choice of active probes old and new. They are very compatible , old ones mostly work even on new scopes.
- MSO8000 is very new. Looks like capable platform, but very expensive for what it is right now.  - limited active probes at this point, no used market
- SDS5000X is interesting, very good price, so far good progress on development - limited active probes at this point, no used market
- Keysight MSOX3000T series + additional Picoscope and/or logic analyser..

Basically, if you want to decode a lot, do that on PC based analyser. Decoding thousands of packets on a scope is no fun. That's a job for keyboard, 24" + monitors and a mouse. Decoding on a scope is done for interactive checks, and as a convenience thing, everything is already  connected an you check analog and digital at the same time. Also on MSO you can check for digital/analog synchronisation, to see signals together on same timescale.
 
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Online nctnico

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Re: 500 MHz+ 4 channel Oscilloscope recommendation. MSO8000 any good?
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2019, 08:44:06 am »
No chance the R&S RTM3004 fits the budget? Firmware wise that is a much safer bet. OTOH you might want to look at a used oscilloscope. For looking at clocks you'll need a scope with a low trigger jitter spec.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline dmg

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Re: 500 MHz+ 4 channel Oscilloscope recommendation. MSO8000 any good?
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2019, 09:06:28 am »
What country?

There are many choices at that price range.

- Rohde & Schwarz RTM3K-COM4 Promotion 1GHz RTM3000 series fully loaded- decent choice of active probes, but no used ones..
- LeCroy might have interesting stuff - very good choice of active probes old and new. They are very compatible , old ones mostly work even on new scopes.
- MSO8000 is very new. Looks like capable platform, but very expensive for what it is right now.  - limited active probes at this point, no used market
- SDS5000X is interesting, very good price, so far good progress on development - limited active probes at this point, no used market
- Keysight MSOX3000T series + additional Picoscope and/or logic analyser..

Basically, if you want to decode a lot, do that on PC based analyser. Decoding thousands of packets on a scope is no fun. That's a job for keyboard, 24" + monitors and a mouse. Decoding on a scope is done for interactive checks, and as a convenience thing, everything is already  connected an you check analog and digital at the same time. Also on MSO you can check for digital/analog synchronisation, to see signals together on same timescale.

The country is Spain. I think I didn't explain myself well enough. This will be used as an everyday use oscilloscope for common everyday activity, we don't need it to be particularly good at anything, but we need something fancier than baseline scopes, with upgradeability as a bonus. The need for active probes and such is not for today but for the hopefully near future. Righ now we're served with 500 MHz passive probes. With serial bus debugging I meant mostly on the analog side except for some ocassional decoding of common low speed serial protocols.

We've looked at the local used market and considered some options, but most of the equipment available is brand names such as keysight which tend to be low on memory depth, which is something we need.
 

Online 2N3055

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Re: 500 MHz+ 4 channel Oscilloscope recommendation. MSO8000 any good?
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2019, 09:28:16 am »
What country?

There are many choices at that price range.

- Rohde & Schwarz RTM3K-COM4 Promotion 1GHz RTM3000 series fully loaded- decent choice of active probes, but no used ones..
- LeCroy might have interesting stuff - very good choice of active probes old and new. They are very compatible , old ones mostly work even on new scopes.
- MSO8000 is very new. Looks like capable platform, but very expensive for what it is right now.  - limited active probes at this point, no used market
- SDS5000X is interesting, very good price, so far good progress on development - limited active probes at this point, no used market
- Keysight MSOX3000T series + additional Picoscope and/or logic analyser..

Basically, if you want to decode a lot, do that on PC based analyser. Decoding thousands of packets on a scope is no fun. That's a job for keyboard, 24" + monitors and a mouse. Decoding on a scope is done for interactive checks, and as a convenience thing, everything is already  connected an you check analog and digital at the same time. Also on MSO you can check for digital/analog synchronisation, to see signals together on same timescale.

The country is Spain. I think I didn't explain myself well enough. This will be used as an everyday use oscilloscope for common everyday activity, we don't need it to be particularly good at anything, but we need something fancier than baseline scopes, with upgradeability as a bonus. The need for active probes and such is not for today but for the hopefully near future. Righ now we're served with 500 MHz passive probes. With serial bus debugging I meant mostly on the analog side except for some ocassional decoding of common low speed serial protocols.

We've looked at the local used market and considered some options, but most of the equipment available is brand names such as keysight which tend to be low on memory depth, which is something we need.

Thank you for details..

Take a look at  Rohde & Schwarz RTM3K-COM4 Promotion 1GHz RTM3000 series fully loaded - In EU for a company that is arround 8500 €, no VAT.
But be carefull, that scope line cannot search for event in decoded protocol data in basic protocols. Stupid. So huge memory is useless for decoding, if you want to search trough capture. You can only manually go through packets, one by one.

Also if you want cheaper, and is not afraid of second tier, SDG5034X is excellent bargain for 350 MHz scope.  But that is only if 350 MHz is enough. And they have limited number of active probes now. They plan to add more later but that is wait and see situation. No protocol search either.

That is why I ended with MSOX3000T. It has small memory, but it can search and by using segments I can capture most of the stuff I would need.

But seriously, Picoscope is best for decoding, portable too. You can easily save hundreds of sessions, and take them to the office for analysis, even without scope connected. So I use combination of MSOX3000T for interactive work (excellent for that) and Picoscope when I need 500 MS of memory or other capabilities it is good at....
 
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Online nctnico

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Re: 500 MHz+ 4 channel Oscilloscope recommendation. MSO8000 any good?
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2019, 10:09:18 am »
Take a look at  Rohde & Schwarz RTM3K-COM4 Promotion 1GHz RTM3000 series fully loaded - In EU for a company that is arround 8500 €, no VAT.
But be carefull, that scope line cannot search for event in decoded protocol data in basic protocols. Stupid. So huge memory is useless for decoding, if you want to search trough capture. You can only manually go through packets, one by one.
AFAIK you can export the decoded data and do the search / analysis on a PC. For 8500 euro buying a fully optioned RTM3004 is a no brainer.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2019, 10:11:56 am by nctnico »
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Online tautech

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Re: 500 MHz+ 4 channel Oscilloscope recommendation. MSO8000 any good?
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2019, 10:36:26 am »
I need a recommendation for a 500 MHz+ 4 channel oscilloscope below $10K. It needs to have a good memory depth, compatibility with active probes and 50 ohm termination mode. It's basically going to be used to capture and debug serial buses, check clocks and such common stuff.
............ and the Siglent SDS5000.

Any recommendation?
Got a SDS5054X here, whaddaya want to know ?
Retail firmware is nowhere near as advanced as the current beta firmware that should be nearly ready for public release. To date any reviews are with the early firmwares even the one Dave tore down and in the 1 GHz scope shootout where the Siglent was the clear winner on bang for buck.

Only the SAP1000 active probe is currently available however Siglent are in the throws of building some LeCroy adapters to enable use of their active probes.
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: 500 MHz+ 4 channel Oscilloscope recommendation. MSO8000 any good?
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2019, 12:08:37 pm »
I'll make no excuses, I'm quite the Keysight fan, almost fully optioned Keysight Used MSOX3104T is still on sale in the Keysight store $6,848: the only additional item I'd recommend adding is the DSOXLAN LAN/VGA module.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/buying-keysight-used-my-msox3104t-fully-loaded-experiences/

I have Teks and Rigols too in the lab, but it's the Keysights that get used by far the most just because of their intuitive and responsive UI.
 

Offline KaneTW

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Re: 500 MHz+ 4 channel Oscilloscope recommendation. MSO8000 any good?
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2019, 12:21:13 pm »
Seconding the RTM -- if that promo was available when I bought my fully optioned RTB for ~5k, I'd have sprung for an RTM easily.

If you really need UART history search, you can use SCPI or one of the other APIs to automate it. Really something they should implement, though. CAN and LIN bus search (and some others?) are supported out of the box.
 

Offline dmg

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Re: 500 MHz+ 4 channel Oscilloscope recommendation. MSO8000 any good?
« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2019, 12:23:12 pm »
Take a look at  Rohde & Schwarz RTM3K-COM4 Promotion 1GHz RTM3000 series fully loaded - In EU for a company that is arround 8500 €, no VAT.
But be carefull, that scope line cannot search for event in decoded protocol data in basic protocols. Stupid. So huge memory is useless for decoding, if you want to search trough capture. You can only manually go through packets, one by one.
AFAIK you can export the decoded data and do the search / analysis on a PC. For 8500 euro buying a fully optioned RTM3004 is a no brainer.

We're seriously considering the RTM3004. One thing we don't like at all is the single control knob for all channels. That's a bummer... Also, there's a fully optioned Rigol MSO8000 for 9k€ which also fits the budget, with 600.000 waveforms per second update rate, 10Gsa/s and 2 GHz bandwidth.

Still, we think we'd go the Rhode way, but we're not fully sure yet.

I'll make no excuses, I'm quite the Keysight fan, almost fully optioned Keysight Used MSOX3104T is still on sale in the Keysight store $6,848: the only additional item I'd recommend adding is the DSOXLAN LAN/VGA module.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/buying-keysight-used-my-msox3104t-fully-loaded-experiences/

I have Teks and Rigols too in the lab, but it's the Keysights that get used by far the most just because of their intuitive and responsive UI.

Keysight would be our first choice but low memory depth kills it for our applications D:
 

Online nctnico

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Re: 500 MHz+ 4 channel Oscilloscope recommendation. MSO8000 any good?
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2019, 12:26:56 pm »
The RTM3004 has a touch screen which makes using the buttons less necessary anyway.
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Offline Howardlong

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Re: 500 MHz+ 4 channel Oscilloscope recommendation. MSO8000 any good?
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2019, 02:15:38 pm »
Keysight would be our first choice but low memory depth kills it for our applications D:

I hear you, but I wonder what it is you're doing that needs the extra memory? In almost all scenarios I find that there are ways around it, usually around being creative with triggers and/or segmented memory. Furthermore, how much memory is enough? I've always looked on it as the law of diminishing returns, and you can never have enough.

Any of the other scopes that I have around that significantly longer memory are painfully slow when it comes to decoding. and you have to spend time setting up the acquisition correctly to take advantage. If I really need an exceptionally long decode then I use a different tool, but it is an exception. One problem I find with most of the PC based tools is that at the lower end they have very limited sample rate, so having that right alternative is key.

And setup is one of the problems of a scope that has very deep memory, I find I spend a lot of time fiddling with the acquisition settings even when I don't necessarily need very deep memory: this kind of acquisition setup isn't even a concept you consider on the Keysight Infiniivisions.

But, as I alluded to earlier, the slick UI of the Keysight Infiniivsion series is my reason they're the go to scopes on the bench.
 

Offline Zucca

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Re: 500 MHz+ 4 channel Oscilloscope recommendation. MSO8000 any good?
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2019, 02:32:38 pm »
I have a MSOX 3054a with everything included in immaculate condition to sell. PM sent.
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Online nctnico

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Re: 500 MHz+ 4 channel Oscilloscope recommendation. MSO8000 any good?
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2019, 04:20:05 pm »
Keysight would be our first choice but low memory depth kills it for our applications D:
I hear you, but I wonder what it is you're doing that needs the extra memory? In almost all scenarios I find that there are ways around it, usually around being creative with triggers and/or segmented memory. Furthermore, how much memory is enough? I've always looked on it as the law of diminishing returns, and you can never have enough.
That depends. It is often much quicker to just capture a long trace and then analyse that. With lots of memory depth you get all the details you need in one sweep. And all events are correlated so if something unexpected happens deep memory allow to examine the cause without needing to set a specific trigger. Needing to setup triggers & recapture recapture recapture recapture can get tedious. I used to own an Agilent 7104A but even with twice the memory depth compared to the MSO3000X series I regulary battled against the shallow memory. In many use case scenarios you end up with 1/4th of the memory depth it says on the badge on a Keysight scope.
Quote
Any of the other scopes that I have around that significantly longer memory are painfully slow when it comes to decoding. and you have to spend time setting up the acquisition correctly to take advantage. If I really need an exceptionally long decode then I use a different tool, but it is an exception.
The RTM3004 decodes fast. It uses a similar technique like Keysight where the decoding runs in parallel with the acquisition. I don't see myself fiddling with the acquisition settings so much on the RTM3004. Default it is at maximum memory. There is no speed penalty for that except for slower update rates at long time/div settings. I know you have some Tektronix scope as well but you should give the RTM3004 a try.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2019, 05:08:19 pm by nctnico »
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Offline Howardlong

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Re: 500 MHz+ 4 channel Oscilloscope recommendation. MSO8000 any good?
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2019, 07:43:05 pm »

The RTM3004 decodes fast. It uses a similar technique like Keysight where the decoding runs in parallel with the acquisition. I don't see myself fiddling with the acquisition settings so much on the RTM3004. Default it is at maximum memory. There is no speed penalty for that except for slower update rates at long time/div settings. I know you have some Tektronix scope as well but you should give the RTM3004 a try.

Interesting, I think I'd want to try it first though. As you may remember I have a 7104B which is still my go to scope, but in recent months I added an MDO4054C SA6 and one of those MSOX3104T that I mentioned up thread. I use all three, plus an MSO8104A, but keep going back to the 7104B.

 

Online nctnico

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Re: 500 MHz+ 4 channel Oscilloscope recommendation. MSO8000 any good?
« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2019, 07:49:02 pm »
I think you should invest in a bigger office first  8)
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline Howardlong

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Re: 500 MHz+ 4 channel Oscilloscope recommendation. MSO8000 any good?
« Reply #16 on: October 01, 2019, 08:08:00 pm »
I think you should invest in a bigger office first  8)

I’ve only just downsized into this one! I now have my stores in a separate room about four times the size of my mancave that also includes a stand up bench area, but 99% of the time is spent fondling the scopes back in my man lair.
 

Offline Sighound36

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Re: 500 MHz+ 4 channel Oscilloscope recommendation. MSO8000 any good?
« Reply #17 on: October 01, 2019, 08:49:22 pm »
Interesting thread I am currently looking at scopes with jitter / eye capability and minimum 1Ghz BW this rules out R&S 4000 series as well as the Tektronix 4000 series and Keysight
Recently had a loan Tek MSO54 1Ghz with the jitter and eye pattern plus power analysis and I2S decoding cost is £23400+vat.  All of the aforementioned brands that can have the eye etc are all £16k plus with no apps and basic probes
Lovely but if equipment super 15inch screen, upto 8 channels, decent fft for a scope, great multi tasking lots of trigger acquisitions etc
Have been told comparing lesser brands to the exalted  big brands  I must somewhat loco to do so
However the Rigol MSO7000 acquainted itself rather well, no it's not in the same league in critical areas and the screen it's as good especially with the pinch and zoom capabilities. Yes the Tek is faster but the BW was in 45ps less in total bandwidth using a Bodnar reference. Is the difference in cost worth the extra the Tek or whatever make can deliver in terms over and above your current unit. If you need the features then yes if not...

Question what other options are there for 1Ghz Bw minimum plus eye pattern jitter all answers will be happily entertained 

Seeking quality measurement equipment at realistic cost with proper service backup. If you pay peanuts you employ monkeys.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: 500 MHz+ 4 channel Oscilloscope recommendation. MSO8000 any good?
« Reply #18 on: October 01, 2019, 09:11:08 pm »
Interesting thread I am currently looking at scopes with jitter / eye capability and minimum 1Ghz BW this rules out R&S 4000 series as well as the Tektronix 4000 series and Keysight

However the Rigol MSO7000 acquainted itself rather well, no it's not in the same league in critical areas and the screen it's as good especially

Question what other options are there for 1Ghz Bw minimum plus eye pattern jitter all answers will be happily entertained
The Rigol MSO7000 doesn't even have a specification for the trigger jitter so scratch that for looking at eye patterns. If you need a budget solution then look at a used Agilent (54845A for example) or Lecroy whichever fits your budget. I have an Agilent 54845A myself and it can resolve down to a few tens of ps. Recently I acquired a Lecroy Wavepro 7200A which has more features to look at eye patterns and should have comparable trigger jitter performance.

Also note that the risetime is not necessarily a good indication of bandwidth. Some scopes have a different roll-off so the bandwidth is .45/risetime instead of the common rule of thumb .35/risetime.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2019, 09:17:52 pm by nctnico »
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Online 2N3055

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Re: 500 MHz+ 4 channel Oscilloscope recommendation. MSO8000 any good?
« Reply #19 on: October 01, 2019, 09:17:27 pm »
Interesting thread I am currently looking at scopes with jitter / eye capability and minimum 1Ghz BW this rules out R&S 4000 series as well as the Tektronix 4000 series and Keysight
Recently had a loan Tek MSO54 1Ghz with the jitter and eye pattern plus power analysis and I2S decoding cost is £23400+vat.  All of the aforementioned brands that can have the eye etc are all £16k plus with no apps and basic probes
Lovely but if equipment super 15inch screen, upto 8 channels, decent fft for a scope, great multi tasking lots of trigger acquisitions etc
Have been told comparing lesser brands to the exalted  big brands  I must somewhat loco to do so
However the Rigol MSO7000 acquainted itself rather well, no it's not in the same league in critical areas and the screen it's as good especially with the pinch and zoom capabilities. Yes the Tek is faster but the BW was in 45ps less in total bandwidth using a Bodnar reference. Is the difference in cost worth the extra the Tek or whatever make can deliver in terms over and above your current unit. If you need the features then yes if not...

Question what other options are there for 1Ghz Bw minimum plus eye pattern jitter all answers will be happily entertained
That is what Rigol MSO8000 is all about.. But fully loaded one with 2GHz bandwitdth is 9000€.
It is really new,though, and nobody really put it through the paces ..
 

Offline tv84

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Re: 500 MHz+ 4 channel Oscilloscope recommendation. MSO8000 any good?
« Reply #20 on: October 01, 2019, 09:23:52 pm »
The Rigol MSO7000 doesn't even have a specification for the trigger jitter so scratch that for looking at eye patterns.

Looking at what is achievable with the MSO5000, in terms of eye pattern, I believe the MSO7000 could achieve it if Rigol wanted.

Let's wait to see what the 8000 brings.

PS:  Why do I talk about things that I don't know?!? :palm:
« Last Edit: October 02, 2019, 10:31:59 am by tv84 »
 

Online nctnico

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Re: 500 MHz+ 4 channel Oscilloscope recommendation. MSO8000 any good?
« Reply #21 on: October 01, 2019, 09:28:28 pm »
The Rigol MSO7000 doesn't even have a specification for the trigger jitter so scratch that for looking at eye patterns.
Looking at what is achievable with the MSO5000, in terms of eye pattern, I believe the MSO7000 could achieve it if Rigol wanted.
Sorry but without a quantitive spec you don't know how much of what you see on the screen is actual signal versus noise in the trigger system. The MSO8000 doesn't have a trigger jitter specification so as far as I'm concerned the eye patterns are nice eye candy  8)
The minimum time bases are a good indication. The 2GHz MSO8000 bottoms out at 200ps/div. The Agilent 54845A goes down to 100ps/div and the Lecroy Wavepro 7200A even allows 20ps/div.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2019, 09:32:10 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline tv84

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Re: 500 MHz+ 4 channel Oscilloscope recommendation. MSO8000 any good?
« Reply #22 on: October 01, 2019, 09:28:44 pm »
That is what Rigol MSO8000 is all about.. But fully loaded one with 2GHz bandwitdth is 9000€.

An official 2 GHz is well more than that. Unless you're talking about a hacked one...

Edit:  |O |O Rigol MSO8K package!!!! WOW! Maybe they are discouraging people from going with a Rigol MSO8064 fully hacked.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2019, 09:34:00 pm by tv84 »
 

Offline Sighound36

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Re: 500 MHz+ 4 channel Oscilloscope recommendation. MSO8000 any good?
« Reply #23 on: October 01, 2019, 09:37:48 pm »
Nctnico
I agree with the roll off bandwidth issues and use the  .35  formula rise time of the Tek was 378ps claim is 350ps the rigol is 425ps both scores running for a solid hour before testing

What did you pay for the wavepro 7200, I have a respectable  budget for the right solution used us not an issue either.

What is trigger s/n for jitter app on the lecroy? If it has a possible 20ps per div then the bandwidth must over 10Ghz surely
« Last Edit: October 01, 2019, 09:40:30 pm by Sighound36 »
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Online nctnico

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Re: 500 MHz+ 4 channel Oscilloscope recommendation. MSO8000 any good?
« Reply #24 on: October 01, 2019, 09:42:01 pm »
Nctnico
I agree with the roll off bandwidth issues and use the  .35  formula rise time of the Tek was 378ps claim is 350ps the rigol is 425ps both scores running for a solid hour before testing

What did you pay for the wavepro 7200, I have a respectable  budget for the right solution used us not an issue either.

What is trigger s/n for jitter app on the lecroy?
I paid $400 (ex shipping) for one with some issues. But the good ones with some warranty seem to be in the $3k range. However if you have a bit more budget I'd go for a newer scope which likely doesn't like to immitate a vacuum cleaner.
The jitter specs for the trigger on the Wavepro 7200A is 1ps rms with an interpolator jitter of 2.5ps typical.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 


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