Author Topic: 500 MHz+ 4 channel Oscilloscope recommendation. MSO8000 any good?  (Read 4019 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online Performa01

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 901
  • Country: at
Re: 500 MHz+ 4 channel Oscilloscope recommendation. MSO8000 any good?
« Reply #50 on: October 05, 2019, 03:59:26 am »
I have given this some thought and I think there is something odd going on here. Look at how the signal converges into a single line near the trigger threshold an then smears out. The image would suggest that the trigger jitter is zero but this can't be true because above and below the trigger point the signal starts to smear horizontally. I have not seen a similar effect on other oscilloscopes. On those I see a signal which keeps about the same width from 20% to 80% of the rise time.
...
I think Siglent's trigger interpolator takes a very small part of the signal and uses that to place it at the trigger point which creates a somewhat distorted image. It is even possible the trace smears out more horizontally than when using a larger part of the signal.
That's an interesting discussion. In order to not further derail this thread I've replied in the SDS5000X thread:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/at-last-siglent_s-sds5054x-touchscreen/msg2724608/#msg2724608
 

Online 0xdeadbeef

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1402
  • Country: de
Re: 500 MHz+ 4 channel Oscilloscope recommendation. MSO8000 any good?
« Reply #51 on: October 05, 2019, 09:28:53 am »
IMHO this is the effect  of a digital trigger system that tries to reduce the visible jitter by trying to correct the trigger location.
E.g. Rohde & Schwarz discussed this in some detail as advancement for the RTO line:
https://scdn.rohde-schwarz.com/ur/pws/dl_downloads/dl_application/00aps_undefined/Benefits_of_RTO_digital_trigger_system_2.pdf

Personally, I'm not 100% sure what to think of it. Obviously clever people have invested lots of effort into this and the idea seems valid, yet it feels a bit like cheating.

I have given this some thought and I think there is something odd going on here. Look at how the signal converges into a single line near the trigger threshold an then smears out. The image would suggest that the trigger jitter is zero but this can't be true because above and below the trigger point the signal starts to smear horizontally. I have not seen a similar effect on other oscilloscopes. On those I see a signal which keeps about the same width from 20% to 80% of the rise time.
[...]
I think Siglent's trigger interpolator takes a very small part of the signal and uses that to place it at the trigger point which creates a somewhat distorted image. It is even possible the trace smears out more horizontally than when using a larger part of the signal.
Trying is the first step towards failure - Homer J. Simpson
 

Offline 2N3055

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2253
  • Country: hr
Re: 500 MHz+ 4 channel Oscilloscope recommendation. MSO8000 any good?
« Reply #52 on: October 06, 2019, 10:13:59 am »
I also second a Keysight. Been used Keysight scopes for the past half decade, and I won't complain rest of building quality (DOA accessories, firmware rotting, etc.), but service is great, so it's not a big thing to worry about......................
........................

As an owner of Keysight scope I agree with most of things you said.
Problem is that first Keysight  scope that has RT eye diagramming and jitter analysis capabilities is Infiniivision 6000 series, and that one, 2.5GHz, used with no warranty in Keysight used shop is listed at over 13000 USD, with NO options whatsoever.  You could haggle a little, get warranty contract, buy options, haggle a little more but I doubt you could get one with full options and warranty for less than 14000-15000 USD. I agree that is a much more polished scope with more measurements and proven quality, but it's also twice as much money.

That is why people are tempted by Rigol and Siglent. It's not that people think they are superior to Keysight or LeCroy (as long as you dig a bit deeper you see they are not), but if they are good enough to do your job and cost much less then big brands, many will find them exactly that, good enough...
 
The following users thanked this post: Sighound36

Online blueskull

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 13276
  • Country: cn
  • Power Electronics Guy
Re: 500 MHz+ 4 channel Oscilloscope recommendation. MSO8000 any good?
« Reply #53 on: October 06, 2019, 04:38:36 pm »
As an owner of Keysight scope I agree with most of things you said.
Problem is that first Keysight  scope that has RT eye diagramming and jitter analysis capabilities is Infiniivision 6000 series, and that one, 2.5GHz, used with no warranty in Keysight used shop is listed at over 13000 USD, with NO options whatsoever.  You could haggle a little, get warranty contract, buy options, haggle a little more but I doubt you could get one with full options and warranty for less than 14000-15000 USD.

Except I managed to get mine for $8500 with all options and 6G BW.

I sold it for $8500 plus a fully enabled MSOX3054A, which I scored $3000 from.

So yup, someone got my 6G MSOX6004A with all options for a practical price of $11500.

BTW, MSOX6004A doesn't really have the best jitter measurement capability. The residual jitter is pretty high for most so called low jitter oscillators out there. It's good for communication system whole signal chain analysis, but for low jitter single component, not so good.
 
The following users thanked this post: 2N3055

Online Sighound36

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 122
  • Country: gb
Re: 500 MHz+ 4 channel Oscilloscope recommendation. MSO8000 any good?
« Reply #54 on: October 06, 2019, 06:47:22 pm »

As an owner of Keysight scope I agree with most of things you said.
Problem is that first Keysight  scope that has RT eye diagramming and jitter analysis capabilities is Infiniivision 6000 series, and that one, 2.5GHz, used with no warranty in Keysight used shop is listed at over 13000 USD, with NO options whatsoever.  You could haggle a little, get warranty contract, buy options, haggle a little more but I doubt you could get one with full options and warranty for less than 14000-15000 USD. I agree that is a much more polished scope with more measurements and proven quality, but it's also twice as much money.

That is why people are tempted by Rigol and Siglent. It's not that people think they are superior to Keysight or LeCroy (as long as you dig a bit deeper you see they are not), but if they are good enough to do your job and cost much less then big brands, many will find them exactly that, good enough...

Absolutely agree 100% with your observation 2N3055  :clap:

Four quality low jitter measurements with eye diagrams you are looking at either the following scopes from the usual suspects the Keysight  6000 series, R&S RTS2000 series or the Tetronix MSO54 or for better accuracy the MSO6000 series

All of the above start at £17K for a four channel 1Ghz basic model with no apps or relevant probes.

The Tek MSO54 1Ghz is £17400 + 5-DJA jitt er package, £4K plus 5-PWR power analysis at another £3K and 5-SRAUDIO I2S and L-R justified for £1800 plus vat gives £31400 inc vat, yes they will talk a deal, but as with every company there is a limit. yes the vat we calm back but its a significant outlay. This doesn't include the current and active probes required for power analysis.

The Tek MSO6000 is a more desirable product as the accuracy is improved over the 5000 series, but its £33k +vat

Similar sums for the other respected manufacturers.

The question is do you really need that extra performance for that extra outlay???

Blueskull did you twist a few arms for that pricing for the Keysight 6000 series  :-+ 

Happy to have to quality used scope no problems they just do not seem to appear on the market when you require one.

Thanks for all the replies so far.
Seeking quality measurement equipment at realistic cost with proper service backup. If you pay peanuts you employ monkeys.
 

Online blueskull

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 13276
  • Country: cn
  • Power Electronics Guy
Re: 500 MHz+ 4 channel Oscilloscope recommendation. MSO8000 any good?
« Reply #55 on: October 06, 2019, 06:56:18 pm »
Blueskull did you twist a few arms for that pricing for the Keysight 6000 series  :-+ 

Remember the first Keysight test to impress challenge? One of the top prize winners decided to cash it.
 

Online Sighound36

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 122
  • Country: gb
Re: 500 MHz+ 4 channel Oscilloscope recommendation. MSO8000 any good?
« Reply #56 on: October 06, 2019, 07:07:15 pm »
Blueskull did you twist a few arms for that pricing for the Keysight 6000 series  :-+ 

Remember the first Keysight test to impress challenge? One of the top prize winners decided to cash it.

Understand now  8) someone had to win so well done!
Seeking quality measurement equipment at realistic cost with proper service backup. If you pay peanuts you employ monkeys.
 

Online Martin72

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 893
  • Country: de
Re: 500 MHz+ 4 channel Oscilloscope recommendation. MSO8000 any good?
« Reply #57 on: October 06, 2019, 07:33:34 pm »
That is why people are tempted by Rigol and Siglent. It's not that people think they are superior to Keysight or LeCroy (as long as you dig a bit deeper you see they are not), but if they are good enough to do your job and cost much less then big brands, many will find them exactly that, good enough...

Exactly my point and people should stop comparing them with "the big boys".
You can compare them with their low-cost series - but it could be somekind of silly.
Because where do the low-costs come from…. ;)
Rigol and siglent had revolutionizing the market for hobbyists, no question.
But fishing in the river for scopes beyond 5000.....not really.
I couldn´t imagine buy me a rigol 8000 even I had the money for it.
Siglent instead seems to participate from their partnership with lecroy.
The SDS5000 looks "adulter" to me, I think this is a improved version of the lecroy WS3000/ siglent SDS3000, which would be not so bad if all bugs were cleaned out ( a wet dream, I know)…
For me the Rigol5000 is the best choice for it´s cost - If I had more money to spend, I wouldn´t buy a 7000 or 8000..

Online 0xdeadbeef

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1402
  • Country: de
Re: 500 MHz+ 4 channel Oscilloscope recommendation. MSO8000 any good?
« Reply #58 on: October 06, 2019, 09:25:46 pm »
The SDS5000 looks "adulter" to me, I think this is a improved version of the lecroy WS3000/ siglent SDS3000, which would be not so bad if all bugs were cleaned out ( a wet dream, I know)…
For me the Rigol5000 is the best choice for it´s cost - If I had more money to spend, I wouldn´t buy a 7000 or 8000..
The SDS5000 is not superior to the WS3000(Z) in every aspect. Beyond things like LabNotebook and WaveScan, the WS3000(Z) also doesn't have the bandwidth limitations for the mV ranges. And, well, it supports LeCroy active probes. Even if Siglent should offer adapters one day and they would be somewhat affordable, a well-established probe interface with a market for used devices is a clear benefit of the big players (especially for LeCroy as they never changed the probe interface).

Regarding the MSO5000 (and other lower-end offerings): what really bothers me there (apart from bugs so-so GUI) is the lack of a probe detection. The missing of 50Ohm inputs and probe supply is already pretty bad, but removal of the probe detection is something I don't really want to live with.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2019, 09:30:18 pm by 0xdeadbeef »
Trying is the first step towards failure - Homer J. Simpson
 

Offline tautech

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17552
  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. NZ Siglent Distributor
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
Re: 500 MHz+ 4 channel Oscilloscope recommendation. MSO8000 any good?
« Reply #59 on: October 06, 2019, 09:34:51 pm »
Even if Siglent should offer adapters one day and they would be somewhat affordable, a well-established probe interface with a market for used devices is a clear benefit of the big players (especially for LeCroy as they never changed the probe interface).
Maybe you missed this post a couple of weeks back:
BTW, do you also happen to know a good compatible high-speed differential probe for the SDS5000X? (specs could/should be similar to the LeCroy AP033 which is 500 MHz, 5V CMVR, 50 ohms terminated, input capacitance is low).
Sorry I don't as Siglent's offerings of differential probes are abismall for use with a scope like the 5kX.  :(

I expect they are working on something but I don't know for sure however this is a very good question and I've endeavour to find out something later today when the factory is on deck.
Meanwhile I'll check if the SAP1000 active probe offers differential operation or if the ref connection is BNC ground referenced.
Quick reply from the factory just minutes after they opened today.  :)

We are developing the probe adapters to adapt LeCroy Probus probes and Tek probes (with TekProbe interface). The one for LeCroy will be available by the end of  this year, and the one for Tek will be available in Q1, 2020.

High BW Differential probes are coming but sometime later so these adapters are the interim solution.
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 

Online Martin72

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 893
  • Country: de
Re: 500 MHz+ 4 channel Oscilloscope recommendation. MSO8000 any good?
« Reply #60 on: October 06, 2019, 09:46:18 pm »
Regarding the MSO5000 (and other lower-end offerings): what really bothers me there (apart from bugs so-so GUI) is the lack of a probe detection.

To be honest, this is a thing I don´t understand from my beginning as a testfield-technician 16yrs ago.

What the hell are the benefits of auto-detection ? Saving time to adjust ? This 10 seconds to set the coupling manually ?
I couldn´t get it until nowadays.
On the contrary, if it´s somekind of dirt between the contacts, it´s annoyingly switching forth and back....
True missing indeed is the 50ohm Input.

« Last Edit: October 06, 2019, 09:51:21 pm by Martin72 »
 

Offline 2N3055

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2253
  • Country: hr
Re: 500 MHz+ 4 channel Oscilloscope recommendation. MSO8000 any good?
« Reply #61 on: October 06, 2019, 10:18:04 pm »
Regarding the MSO5000 (and other lower-end offerings): what really bothers me there (apart from bugs so-so GUI) is the lack of a probe detection.

To be honest, this is a thing I don´t understand from my beginning as a testfield-technician 16yrs ago.

What the hell are the benefits of auto-detection ? Saving time to adjust ? This 10 seconds to set the coupling manually ?
I couldn´t get it until nowadays.
On the contrary, if it´s somekind of dirt between the contacts, it´s annoyingly switching forth and back....
True missing indeed is the 50ohm Input.
I agree with Martin, while autodetection is nice, I don't find it such a problem. I find it logical that active probes do it, but passive probes,  meh..
But I really think they screwed up bad by not having 50 Ohm termination in MSO5000.  It's just lame.
 

Online 0xdeadbeef

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1402
  • Country: de
Re: 500 MHz+ 4 channel Oscilloscope recommendation. MSO8000 any good?
« Reply #62 on: October 06, 2019, 11:23:31 pm »
Even if Siglent should offer adapters one day and they would be somewhat affordable, a well-established probe interface with a market for used devices is a clear benefit of the big players (especially for LeCroy as they never changed the probe interface).
Maybe you missed this post a couple of weeks back:
 Differential probes are coming but sometime later so these adapters are the interim solution.
Nope, I kinda referred to this. The adapters are not available yet and the prices are unknown and even when they'll be available and  if they won't be too expensive, this is still not the same as a native interface. And regarding differential probes from Siglent: prices and quality are unknown but it will take a while until they appear used and it's highly questionable if the marked for used probes will ever reach the current status of e.g. used LeCroy probes.

Anyway, even if I'm a minority, I hate wasting time by reconfiguring attenuation when switching from BNC to 10x probe, love automatic detection of probes, never had problems with reliability and don't want to go back to the stone age of manual switching.
I just don't get how saving a dollar or less per input on a 2-3k€ scope could be justified. Actually even saving money for proper probe supplies is a joke in the few k€ range. IMHO all of this is just deliberate crippling of the lower-end scopes to motivate people to buy the mid-range class.
Trying is the first step towards failure - Homer J. Simpson
 

Online Martin72

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 893
  • Country: de
Re: 500 MHz+ 4 channel Oscilloscope recommendation. MSO8000 any good?
« Reply #63 on: October 07, 2019, 06:14:38 pm »
Quote
IMHO all of this is just deliberate crippling of the lower-end scopes to motivate people to buy the mid-range class.

See also the RTB2000 series - No auto-detection, no integrated 50ohms.
Only (?) siglent offers auto-detection and 50ohms in the "lower" cost range (SDS2000X series).

Offline simone.pignatti

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 344
  • Country: it
Re: 500 MHz+ 4 channel Oscilloscope recommendation. MSO8000 any good?
« Reply #64 on: October 08, 2019, 05:54:04 am »
For the sake of the money, today Rigol brings 4 new package promos (price without VAT):
MSO8K: MSO8104 + upgrade to 2 GHz + free bundle for 8999 Euro (doesn't include logic probe)
MSO7K: MSO7204 + upgrade to 500 MHz + free bundle for 4999 Euro (includes logic probe)
DS7K: DS7204 + upgrade to 500 MHz + free bundle for 3999 Euro (no logic probe available, no AWG available)
MSO5K: MSO5204 + upgrade to 350 MHz + free bundle for 1999 Euro (doesn't include logic probe)

Feel free to contact me for more details in case is not 100% clear  :-+
Technical Support
 

Online maginnovision

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1479
  • Country: us
Re: 500 MHz+ 4 channel Oscilloscope recommendation. MSO8000 any good?
« Reply #65 on: October 08, 2019, 06:21:16 am »
The 2GHz feels sort of like a lie when it's limited to 2 channels but still a pretty good deal.
 

Offline simone.pignatti

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 344
  • Country: it
Re: 500 MHz+ 4 channel Oscilloscope recommendation. MSO8000 any good?
« Reply #66 on: October 08, 2019, 06:24:17 am »
at least is well indicated: "the 2GHz bandwidth is available on a single channel using 10GSa/sec sampling rate or on two interleaving channels (1 or 2 + 3 or 4) using 5GSa/sec sampling rate per channel"
In addition to the 4 x 500MHZ passive probes it also includes 2 x passive low-impedance probes (1.5 GHz) model Rigol RP6150A
Technical Support
 

Online 0xdeadbeef

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1402
  • Country: de
Re: 500 MHz+ 4 channel Oscilloscope recommendation. MSO8000 any good?
« Reply #67 on: October 08, 2019, 08:53:28 am »
As discussed a week ago, also the memory options are missing for the 5000 and 7000 series. Looks like the full memory is already included in the default MSO8000 offerings, so it's the same as the logic probe already being included (only) in the MSO7000 default package.
Trying is the first step towards failure - Homer J. Simpson
 

Offline dmg

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 101
Re: 500 MHz+ 4 channel Oscilloscope recommendation. MSO8000 any good?
« Reply #68 on: October 11, 2019, 06:42:17 pm »
So we finally got the RTM3K-COM4 Rhode bundle. So far it looks like a nice instrument. I have mixed feelings about the UI though. The good thing is that there's a button for every major function and things are sensibly organized and functional. The bad thing is that the screen-size-to-knob-count ratio is a bit high for its touch interface quality. The touch interface it's a bit too much on the laggy side and it bothers me, I was expecting better. My standard for touchscreen instrument interfaces is set by a Keysight instrument I have to play with on an almost daily basis which is at least an order of magnitude better to the point where it becomes really useful.

For this scope I see myself not using the touchscreen too much and rather relying on the buttons. For that, individual channel control knobs would be nicer. Also, the single horizontal knob has an RGB light ring around to mark which channel is selected each time instead of having separate, single color LED's. It has to mix colors to display yellow and pink and it doens't look great IMO.

Also, there's a massive design fail as this thing doesn't have a handle yet it comes with a nice carry case for the probes... with velcro straps for handle-strapping it.  D'oh.

Apart from that it looks like a very capable insturment and so far we're not regretting it.  Thanks for your help!



 
The following users thanked this post: 2N3055


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf