"A" brand instruments vs "B" brand

[BillyO]

If you have $3200 to spend on an oscilloscope you could:

A) Get this: https://www.keysight.com/ca/en/product/DSOX2014A/oscilloscope-100-mhz-4-analog-channels.html

or

B) Get this: https://int.siglent.com/products-overview/sds2000hd/

Some folk around here have the idea that in general it is not like the B-brands are equivalent to the A-brands in any way.  I have to agree.  The "A" brands can't hold a candle to the "B" brands dollar for dollar.  Quite frankly it's embarrassing that Keysight even offer that DSOX2014A at all.  It can barely compare with a $500 scope from the "B" brands.  But it has "Keysight" written on it.  That alons has to be worth #2500, right?

Of course, if you have the price of a nice suburban family home burning a hole in you pocket and feel you need a 50GHz scope to test your $5000 speaker cables, then Keysight and Tek have you covered and the "B" guys don't have a thing to offer.

[Fungus]

'A' brands offer a different sort of value:





You may not see it as a hobbyist, but it's there for plenty of people.

[nctnico]

Indeed. And the DSOX2000 series from Keysight is one of the least interesting choices from the A brands. R&S RTB2004 is well worth considering.

[BillyO]

'A' brands offer a different sort of value:

You may not see it as a hobbyist, but it's there for plenty of people.

Oh sure.  That really applies to the 50 GHz scopes that cost the same as a nice house and Fluke's $500+ meters, but not to hobbyist level stuff.  A Fluke 105 meter or a Keysight DSOX2000/Tek Series 2 scope are just not worth the money they are asking for them.  They are not where all that R&D money has gone, nor all the care in meeting standards. Compared to what you can get for the money elsewhere they are next to useless.

[BillyO]

Indeed. And the DSOX2000 series from Keysight is one of the least interesting choices from the A brands. R&S RTB2004 is well worth considering.

The RTB2004 is nicer than the DSOX2000 but still not much competition for that Siglent SDS2000 HD.  It can't even compare to the much lower spec'd SDS2000X Plus.

[Fungus]

not to hobbyist level stuff.

You're perfectly free not to buy them.

eg. I've decided to never own a Fluke 87V and I sleep perfectly well at night.

Corporate users love them though. Watch the video for all the reasons why Fluke will still be making the 87V a hundred years from now and purposely never making a "better" meter.

A Fluke 105 meter or a Keysight DSOX2000/Tek Series 2 scope are just not worth the money they are asking for them.

But a Fluke 101 is worth every penny if your hobby requires a "safe" meter. 

[nctnico]

Indeed. And the DSOX2000 series from Keysight is one of the least interesting choices from the A brands. R&S RTB2004 is well worth considering.

The RTB2004 is nicer than the DSOX2000 but still not much competition for that Siglent SDS2000 HD.  It can't even compare to the much lower spec'd SDS2000X Plus.

Just try them both and you'll think differently for sure. Especially if you need protocol decoding. There is a thread where a forum member does a functional comparison between these scopes and the RTB2004 comes out on top for most use cases. It is a huge mistake to just go by the datasheet. 90% of makes a good instrument isn't in the datasheet.

In another thread you mentioned you are doing semi-professional photography. I doubt you are using a US $200 compact camera to take pictures. I'm not going to try and convince you that my $200 compact camera is equal to your professional camera because it has the same resolution and also has 10x zoom.

[BillyO]

Just try them both and you'll think differently for sure. Especially if you need protocol decoding.

Have you read the specs?  The SDS2000X Plus and HD come with protocol decoding - free.  Right now now on the SDS2000X Plus version they are even throwing in advanced protocol decoding and the thing has a sticker price of $999, less than 1/3 the Keysight.  Even the $499 SDS1000X-E series has protocol decoding included.

Protocol decoding was one of the reason I bought my SDS2104X Plus.  I have already used it for that purpose and solved my problem.  Seems to work as advertised.

[BillyO]

But a Fluke 101 is worth every penny if your hobby requires a "safe" meter. 

That thing can't even measure current.  I guess that way they don't even have to put a fuse in it.

[nctnico]

Just try them both and you'll think differently for sure. Especially if you need protocol decoding.

Have you read the specs?  The SDS2000X Plus and HD come with protocol decoding - free.  Right now now on the SDS2000X Plus version they are even throwing in advanced protocol decoding and the thing has a sticker price of $999, less than 1/3 the Keysight.  Even the $499 SDS1000X-E series has protocol decoding included.

Protocol decoding was one of the reason I bought my SDS2104X Plus.  I have already used it for that purpose and solved my problem.  Seems to work as advertised.

You only know the hammer. Now try the screwdriver... Protocol decoding is implemented so much better on the RTB2004 -for starters-. Do yourself a favour and dig up the thread with the functional comparison and see what you are missing out on.

[BillyO]

In another thread you mentioned you are doing semi-professional photography. I doubt you are using a US $200 compact camera to take pictures. I'm not going to try and convince you that my $200 compact camera is equal to your professional camera because it has the same resolution and also has 10x zoom.

You're right, but it's needs based, just like electronics.

Maybe you can give one specification the Keysight has for $3K that the Siglent doesn't have for $1K, or are we stuck with "Keysight has a certain Je ne se qua".

The truth is the Siglent out performs the Keysight.  The $200 compact camera does not come close to an SLR system with a full range of lenses.

[Bud]

You've been quite agressive since your appearance on the forum. Take a step back and think about this.

[BillyO]

Do yourself a favour and dig up the thread with the functional comparison and see what you are missing out on.

Actually I'd like to.  Do you remember the title?

[nctnico]

The truth is the Siglent out performs the Keysight.  The $200 compact camera does not come close to an SLR system with a full range of lenses.

And I'm telling you the latter is also largely true for the former. Largely where is comes to useability but the RTB2004 is even better.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/functional-comparison-of-rs-rtb2000-siglent-sds2000x-and-keysight-dsox1000/msg3922118/#msg3922118

[Fungus]

But a Fluke 101 is worth every penny if your hobby requires a "safe" meter. 

That thing can't even measure current.

I can't imagine wanting it to when I'm poking around mains AC, but that's your business.

[aduinstat]

I have a SDS2104X+ at home, and a Tektronix MSO24 at work. I like the Siglent a lot more; I think the software is just better. However, the Siglent does not have a traceable calibration, an easy way to clear the memory, or a battery pack. Also, Siglent is Chinese, and that would not fly at work.

[nctnico]

I hope nobody is looking at the back of the Tektronix then. Likely it says 'made in China'.

[aduinstat]

I hope nobody is looking at the back of the Tektronix then. Likely it says 'made in China'.

Yeah, but the company itself is American.

[Martin72]

Some folk around here have the idea that in general it is not like the B-brands are equivalent to the A-brands in any way.  I have to agree.  The "A" brands can't hold a candle to the "B" brands dollar for dollar.  Quite frankly it's embarrassing that Keysight even offer that DSOX2014A at all.  It can barely compare with a $500 scope from the "B" brands.  But it has "Keysight" written on it.  That alone has to be worth #2500, right?

It´s not that easy imho.
First of all I don´t like the A and B thing.
Better we should call it "O"(ld) brand and "N"(ew) brand...
Or C(heap) brand and E(xpensive) brand.
Or...or....or...
See, it´s not that easy to difference.
Classified in A and B, e.g. I wouldn´t call siglent or rigol as B-brands today.
Both got high quality products which aren´t cheap anymore, siglent working together with lecroy and rigol developing their own chipsets..
But both didn´t forget their "roots" and still offering cheap scopes for example.
So what they are, A, B, or AB...
And what are Hantek, Owon, Fnirsi...D,E, F Brands ? 

Back to your example with the keysight.
Yes, for it´s price you can get a scope from e.g. siglent which blast the mentioned keysight out of space in nearly every case.
Except in one, two, three..
Warranty (5yrs), reputation, support...
Last is a killer point for professionals.
In this case, the "old" brands blast the new ones away.
24h support, I got a question and a useful quickly response will follow, answered by skilled engineers.
Or spareparts...Knob is lost ? no problem, here you have a new one.
This kind of support costs money, in relation lots of money...
If siglent/rigol would offer this too, that would have a huge effect on their prices.
And on their portfolio - they couldn´t offer really cheap products anymore.
Or they have to buy it from other, Hantek, Owon for example..

[tautech]

I have a SDS2104X+ at home, and a Tektronix MSO24 at work. I like the Siglent a lot more; I think the software is just better. However, the Siglent does not have a traceable calibration, an easy way to clear the memory, or a battery pack.

What exactly does this mean ? 

Also, Siglent is Chinese, and that would not fly at work.

Would a LeCroy T3DSO2000A be acceptable instead ?
Maybe you recognize them:
https://teledynelecroy.com/oscilloscope/t3dso2000-series-oscilloscopes

[BillyO]

I can't imagine wanting it to when I'm poking around mains AC, but that's your business.

Better throw My Brymen 786 in the garbage then as I do use it on the mains and it has several current ranges.   

[BillyO]

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/functional-comparison-of-rs-rtb2000-siglent-sds2000x-and-keysight-dsox1000/msg3922118/#msg3922118

Thank you sir!

[aduinstat]

I have a SDS2104X+ at home, and a Tektronix MSO24 at work. I like the Siglent a lot more; I think the software is just better. However, the Siglent does not have a traceable calibration, an easy way to clear the memory, or a battery pack.

What exactly does this mean ? 

They have a feature called TekSecure. Basically, you hit a button, and it erases all data that has been saved to it. It's useful if the scope contains sensitive information. I'm there must be some way to that on the Siglent, and maybe I'm blind, but I have not found it.

    Also, Siglent is Chinese, and that would not fly at work.

Would a LeCroy T3DSO2000A be acceptable instead ?
Maybe you recognize them:
https://teledynelecroy.com/oscilloscope/t3dso2000-series-oscilloscopes

I don't think anyone here would be thrilled if they knew what they were.

[BillyO]

It´s not that easy imho.

Of course it's not.  You do realize I'm playing devil's advocate here..

And what are Hantek, Owon, Fnirsi...D,E, F Brands ? 

More like E,D,Z..

Warranty (5yrs), reputation, support...

Warranty looks nice as long as you a professional working for a company.  Hobbyists need not apply.

24h support, I got a question and a useful quickly response will follow, answered by skilled engineers.

Last time I contacted Siglent via their web page I had a call back in 2 hours.  With Korad it was next day, but they both stayed on teh case until we resolved my issues.

Or spareparts...Knob is lost ? no problem, here you have a new one.

The Korad issue required parts.  They shipped them to me from China in 3 days.  The Korad PS was under $300.  It was out of warranty so I had to pay for the new mainboard.  $40.

And on their portfolio - they couldn´t offer really cheap products anymore.

Well, they do offer products that should be a whole lot cheaper in order to be competitive.

[tautech]

I have a SDS2104X+ at home, and a Tektronix MSO24 at work. I like the Siglent a lot more; I think the software is just better. However, the Siglent does not have a traceable calibration, an easy way to clear the memory, or a battery pack.

What exactly does this mean ? 

They have a feature called TekSecure. Basically, you hit a button, and it erases all data that has been saved to it. It's useful if the scope contains sensitive information. I'm there must be some way to that on the Siglent, and maybe I'm blind, but I have not found it.

Look in the Save/Recall menu for Secure Erase.

[noisyee]

"A" brand instruments tend to have more stable and predictable behavior over the entire product life cycle. This is important for production line usage.
Think about it, you want expand production, bought the same instruments, but they are updated to the newest firmware. All of a sudden, your new production line doesn't work as the old one.
Not a big deal for hobbyists or lab usage.
Also, some "B" brands are improving this problem, but still a long way to go compare to the "A" brands.

[tautech]

    Also, Siglent is Chinese, and that would not fly at work.

Would a LeCroy T3DSO2000A be acceptable instead ?
Maybe you recognize them:
https://teledynelecroy.com/oscilloscope/t3dso2000-series-oscilloscopes

I don't think anyone here would be thrilled if they knew what they were.

Reality is Siglent and LeCroy have had a partnership for a decade of more where many models have been rebranded and also gone obsolete to fill LeCroy's entry level marketplace segment.

Exactly as HPAK had Rigol make their entry level products at one time.

[BillyO]

Perhaps companies should look into the spin-off concept.

As an example, besides electronics and photography I also enjoy playing trombone.  There is a musical instrument company called Jupiter Band Instruments.  They are an American subsidiary of Taiwanese parent company KHS.  All the instruments are manufactured in Taiwan and China but sold through Jupiter.  They make good instruments for the student/beginner and up to intermediate players.  However, they wanted to dip their feet in the pro-level instruments, but did not want to risk the endeavor pulling their successful existing business under, so they spun of another company called XO Brass.  They took the approach of building a company to compete with he best available (without going to the customer builders) and adopted the philosophy of providing fully professional horns and fully professional prices and supporting them better than their competitors.  They result is, they are successful and getting more attention all the time.  When I ordered my bass trombone back in 2015 there was going to be a delay in getting the options I wanted so they shipped me (at their expense) a brand new on the shelf model to use while I waited.  I didn'tt even have to ship it back to them.  All I had to do was drop it off at the nearest Long & McQuade store (a big music chain in Canada).  That's service!

So, folks like Keysight, R&S and Tek could go the other way.  Spin off separate entities to address the hobbyist market and offer prices, quality and service commensurate with folks like Siglent and Rigol.  That way these spin-off are on their own to make it happen or fail without affecting the main line business.  It's good to have choices.

[Fungus]

Better throw My Brymen 786 in the garbage then as I do use it on the mains and it has several current ranges.   

You use your current ranges on mains AC??

[joeqsmith]

Reality is Siglent and LeCroy have had a partnership for a decade of more where many models have been rebranded and also gone obsolete to fill LeCroy's entry level marketplace segment.

I wonder if that partnership has done more harm than good to the brand.   After Siglent going after their customer's for selling their old products on eBay,  it took me several years to even look at what they had to offer.   Buying that first low end Arb was a ball buster after seeing how poor the rotary encoder was.   I thought about getting their higher end Arb for home use just to see if it was any better quality but you never answered when I asked about it. 

I have that LeCroy 64Xi and it's case is the worse I have seen.  The knobs falling off, fine.  They made new ones that were tighter.  The front plastic bezel cracking, fine it gets a lot of abuse on my desk.   All that flimsy stamped metal inside.  Not impressed.   I do like the electronics design and the software.     

[tautech]

After Siglent going after their customer's for selling their old products on eBay,  it took me several years to even look at what they had to offer.   

Less publicised was the same stuff from Rigol. It's way back in the forum if anyone is bothered to dig it out.
 

[joeqsmith]

If you have $3200 to spend on an oscilloscope you could:
A) ...

or

B) ...

For my hobby, I choose option C and buy used equipment.  I try to stay in the 10+ year old range to curb the costs.   In most cases, that has worked out well but I am able to do my own repairs. 

[Fungus]

After Siglent going after their customer's for selling their old products on eBay,  it took me several years to even look at what they had to offer.   

Less publicised was the same stuff from Rigol. It's way back in the forum if anyone is bothered to dig it out.

Maybe you could provide the link to that...

But, whatever: Two wrongs don't make a right.

Siglent was more publicized because it was official policy that came from on high. Dave even asked the CEO about it in his video:

https://youtu.be/v9M397sUkEA?t=1468

[BillyO]

You use your current ranges on mains AC??

Did I say that?

I have more appropriate tools for that purpose.

[Fungus]

You use your current ranges on mains AC??

Did I say that?

I'm just trying to figure out why you think the Fluke 101 is bad value for money.

[BillyO]

I try to stay in the 10+ year old range to curb the costs.   In most cases, that has worked out well but I am able to do my own repairs.

I do this too, but to an even older vintage.  A part of my electronics/tech hobbies is vintage computers.  They have their own bench and I have equipped it with test instruments from the 70's and 80's.   

[tautech]

You use your current ranges on mains AC??

Did I say that?

I'm just trying to figure out why you think the Fluke 101 is bad value for money.

Because for a few $ more you can have a much much better Fluke.
Go do your homework and tell me which one. 

[tautech]

After Siglent going after their customer's for selling their old products on eBay,  it took me several years to even look at what they had to offer.   

Less publicised was the same stuff from Rigol. It's way back in the forum if anyone is bothered to dig it out.

Maybe you could provide the link to that...

But, whatever: Two wrongs don't make a right.

Siglent was more publicized because it was official policy that came from on high. Dave even asked the CEO about it in his video:

So, same answer provided as months previous, a junior was let loose without supervision.
Since when has Dave interviewed any other TE CEO's ? 

[BillyO]

I'm just trying to figure out why you think the Fluke 101 is bad value for money.

I just feel it's an extremely limited and simple instrument.  For the price you can source a good old Fluke slide switch model like a 8022 or the bench equivalent like the 8012 (or both if you're patient) that will run circles around the 101.  It does have the advantage of being tiny, I'll give it that, but a modern DMM without at least a mA range?  It would probably be a good tool for a on-site appliance repair person.  But then why does it need a frequency range?  Anyway, I think Fluke realized it wasn't so great as I hear they discontinued it.

[tautech]

I'm just trying to figure out why you think the Fluke 101 is bad value for money.

I just feel it's an extremely limited and simple instrument.  For the price you can source a good old Fluke slide switch model like a 8022 or the bench equivalent like the 8012 (or both if you're patient) that will run circles around the 101.  It does have the advantage of being tiny, I'll give it that, but a modern DMM without at least a mA range? 

It's only redeeming feature is it can survive Joe's tests. $50 is a lot for some for a meter with such limited capability and for not a whole lot more you can get a Fluke DMM with uA capability.....and Joe has beat one of them up too.

[Minki]

Just try them both and you'll think differently for sure. Especially if you need protocol decoding. There is a thread where a forum member does a functional comparison between these scopes and the RTB2004 comes out on top for most use cases. It is a huge mistake to just go by the datasheet. 90% of makes a good instrument isn't in the datasheet.

In another thread you mentioned you are doing semi-professional photography. I doubt you are using a US $200 compact camera to take pictures. I'm not going to try and convince you that my $200 compact camera is equal to your professional camera because it has the same resolution and also has 10x zoom.

Sorry nctnico a little bit off topic can you share the link about this ?
Thank's

[BillyO]

Sorry nctnico a little bit off topic can you share the link about this ?
Thank's

He did.. https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/functional-comparison-of-rs-rtb2000-siglent-sds2000x-and-keysight-dsox1000/msg3922118/#msg3922118

[Minki]

He did.. https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/functional-comparison-of-rs-rtb2000-siglent-sds2000x-and-keysight-dsox1000/msg3922118/#msg3922118

Thank you because i ask before read the entire post

[joeqsmith]

I'm just trying to figure out why you think the Fluke 101 is bad value for money.

I just feel it's an extremely limited and simple instrument.  For the price you can source a good old Fluke slide switch model like a 8022 or the bench equivalent like the 8012 (or both if you're patient) that will run circles around the 101.  It does have the advantage of being tiny, I'll give it that, but a modern DMM without at least a mA range? 

It's only redeeming feature is it can survive Joe's tests. $50 is a lot for some for a meter with such limited capability and for not a whole lot more you can get a Fluke DMM with uA capability.....and Joe has beat one of them up too.

Must be referring to the 17B+.  That's a fairly expensive meter without RMS.  One thing I have seen over and over is these newer Fluke meters are tough when compared with most brand I have looked at.   Such a big change from my first Fluke (8000A).   I swear if I looked at that meter wrong, all the custom ICs were getting replaced.  They really stepped up their game which I am sure what made them so successful.     

Then I look at Keysight.....  Rated to -20C but was pretty much done in at just under that.    100MHz counter feature my ass.   Damaged beyond repair with transients that a $50 Amprobe meter survived.   When I say damaged beyond repair, that in of itself says a lot!  The rotary switch couldn't withstand a fifth of what I have put similar meters through.  It was so bad the plastic knob broke after the contacts cut into the PCB.  If that's not bad enough, it was 121GW turtle slow.   

***
Should also mention Keysight's lettering being easily removed.   

[tautech]

I'm just trying to figure out why you think the Fluke 101 is bad value for money.

I just feel it's an extremely limited and simple instrument.  For the price you can source a good old Fluke slide switch model like a 8022 or the bench equivalent like the 8012 (or both if you're patient) that will run circles around the 101.  It does have the advantage of being tiny, I'll give it that, but a modern DMM without at least a mA range? 

It's only redeeming feature is it can survive Joe's tests. $50 is a lot for some for a meter with such limited capability and for not a whole lot more you can get a Fluke DMM with uA capability.....and Joe has beat one of them up too.

Must be referring to the 17B+. 

Close, 15B, before they did the + thing. Same as 17B but different external case and button overlay.
No backlight.
Good sound basic DMM with most of the basic features you want in a DMM for electronics, the rest you can do with instruments better suited to the more advanced measurement types.
AC and DC current modes into uA and a few other bits and bobs the 101 don't have. IIRC I paid $63 for mine which is not a lot more for a lot more DMM than a 101.

[Fungus]

I'm just trying to figure out why you think the Fluke 101 is bad value for money.

I just feel it's an extremely limited and simple instrument.  For the price you can source a good old Fluke slide switch model like a 8022

Oh, we're allowed to compare with second hand stuff?? By that metric your Brymen must be terrible value for money.

You already said that you hav "more approprate tools" for different jobs, the Fluke 101 may not be very good as a main multimeter but it's a very appropriate tool for certain jobs, and serves well as a second meter alongside a main one.

It's also small, cute, fits in my pocket, can light up a white LED, and I never worry about connecting it to "risky" circuits.

Close, 15B, before they did the + thing.

They don't make that one any more. The closest is the 12E but that's nearly twice the price of a 101.

For less money than a Fluke 12E you can get a Brymen with uA range and beep-jack alert.

Maybe you do your homework and tell us which one?

[tautech]

Close, 15B, before they did the + thing.

They don't make that one any more. The closest is the 12E but that's nearly twice the price of a 101.

For less money than a Fluke 12E you can get a Brymen with uA range and beep-jack alert.

Maybe you do your homework and tell us which one?

Oh you are tiresome and fucking lazy Fungus:
15B+ is $77 and took me 2 minutes to find one, they might even be available cheaper and although that's 50% more than a 101 it's worth it.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004275532822.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.376a4cabT6RXUE&algo_pvid=49fc01df-81e4-4f5f-a1c7-c93f5e886f75&algo_exp_id=49fc01df-81e4-4f5f-a1c7-c93f5e886f75-7&pdp_ext_f=%7B%22sku_id%22%3A%2212000028597015212%22%7D&pdp_npi=2%40dis%21USD%21135.0%2175.6%21%21%217.48%21%21%40210318bb16676389994774589ed930%2112000028597015212%21sea&curPageLogUid=M16FEyqEJ78e

[Black Phoenix]

Close, 15B, before they did the + thing.

They don't make that one any more. The closest is the 12E but that's nearly twice the price of a 101.

For less money than a Fluke 12E you can get a Brymen with uA range and beep-jack alert.

Maybe you do your homework and tell us which one?

Oh you are tiresome and fucking lazy Fungus:
15B+ is $77 and took me 2 minutes to find one, they might even be available cheaper and although that's 50% more than a 101 it's worth it.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004275532822.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.376a4cabT6RXUE&algo_pvid=49fc01df-81e4-4f5f-a1c7-c93f5e886f75&algo_exp_id=49fc01df-81e4-4f5f-a1c7-c93f5e886f75-7&pdp_ext_f=%7B%22sku_id%22%3A%2212000028597015212%22%7D&pdp_npi=2%40dis%21USD%21135.0%2175.6%21%21%217.48%21%21%40210318bb16676389994774589ed930%2112000028597015212%21sea&curPageLogUid=M16FEyqEJ78e

By the way, before he says something, the manuals in English are available in the Fluke website and no, the warranty is not worldwide because the item in question is only for the Chinese Market.

[tautech]

By the way, before he says something, the manuals in English are available in the Fluke website and no, the warranty is not worldwide because the item in question is only for the Chinese Market.

Right. 

Well we see enough posts about Dave's nice meters failing and Defpom down the road from me no longer uses his BM235....the only meter I might consider with the knowledge I can use it on anything I might encounter.
My 15B hasn't missed a beat in the nearly 10yrs I've had it and was brought with full knowledge there was no warranty outside China along with another 16 units, 15 supplied to a customer and 2 kept for warranty in case it was needed, it wasn't, these are Flukes. 

[Fungus]

Oh you are tiresome and fucking lazy Fungus:
15B+ is $77 and took me 2 minutes to find one, they might even be available cheaper and although that's 50% more than a 101 it's worth it.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004275532822.html

(link trimmed, it's not difficult...)

Oh, my bad. I forgot we were in the November sales so they might be cheaper this week.

$77 isn't the price I get when I click that link though, I get this:


(Plus I'll have to pay 20% VAT, but we'll ignore that for the sake of argument).

The Brymen you're trying hard to ignore is the BM805s, which I can get all year round for 58 Euros.

[e0ne199]

what would you do when your "A" brand oscilloscope got broken and it could not have service support from keysight anymore?

[Fungus]

So, same answer provided as months previous, a junior was let loose without supervision.
Since when has Dave interviewed any other TE CEO's ? 

We know the excuses they gave, but two wrongs still don't make a right.

[Black Phoenix]

Oh you are tiresome and fucking lazy Fungus:
15B+ is $77 and took me 2 minutes to find one, they might even be available cheaper and although that's 50% more than a 101 it's worth it.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004275532822.html

(link trimmed, it's not difficult...)

Oh, my bad. I forgot we were in the November sales so they might be cheaper this week.

It's not the price I get when I click that link though, I get this:


(Plus I'll have to pay 20% VAT, but I'll ignore that for the sake of argument).

The Brymen you're trying hard to ignore is the BM805s, which I can get all year round for 58 Euros.

Expensive even in sale for that model. I can get the 17B+ directly in the Huaqiangbei Electronics Market by talking with the owner of the shop that fill my electric and electronic needs here when I need something urgent and can't wait for 2 day delivery.

570RMB the last time I check, last week.

I've been thinking of buying one to offer to a neighbour kid here who is into Arduino (my fault, he saw me some time ago fixing some gaming consoles and got curious, pick up his Chinese new year money and bought a kit for himself) and I want to make him start to do small projects in a breadboard. I already got him some boards and discrete components so just missing the DMM.

Could give him a Uni-T but I'm more knowledge in Fluke than the Uni-T offerings. Just a small Christmas present for a kid who study like hell every single day because of their family (culture related, not going to force my own believes - school then extra classes and after arriving home is study until midnight/one every single week day) and the only small time he have free spends playing with Arduinos and playing football (soccer for the ones on the other side of the Atlantic) with my kid.

[balnazzar]

I hope nobody is looking at the back of the Tektronix then. Likely it says 'made in China'.

Yeah, but the company itself is American.

Tek makes the majority of its scopes in the US. The 2 series is made in China, but Tek *owns* those factories, and controls all the steps in the manufacturing process.

As for the general discussion, Billy is comparing products that belong to different market segments (2K+, 2K HD, RTB2K). The true-12bit scope should be left out of the comparison because it belongs to another tier with respect to the other two, and it has been made with the Lecroy brand in mind. Even the knobs/buttons are different from the other Siglents, and as some report, it's extremely silent.

[BillyO]

The truth is the Siglent out performs the Keysight.  The $200 compact camera does not come close to an SLR system with a full range of lenses.

And I'm telling you the latter is also largely true for the former. Largely where is comes to useability but the RTB2004 is even better.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/functional-comparison-of-rs-rtb2000-siglent-sds2000x-and-keysight-dsox1000/msg3922118/#msg3922118

After many hours of videos..  I have to say that the RTB2004 is a nice scope.  However ..  to get the R&S with the options that came with the Siglent I'd have to spend $5725.  That is $4725 more than what I paid.  The little extra niceties that the RTB2004 offers are not worth that for me.   Not by a long shot.

Then there are the things the Siglent has that R&S doesn't like deeper memory, more accurate time base, faster WFCR, and a few other things that are probably not that important like higher frequency internal generator (I have an external generator that is far more useful).

Then there is also the hackability of the Siglent which can get me a scope that even $8500 spent on the R&S would not get me.

So, thanks for pointing me to that series.  It was very informative and has assure me I made the right purchase for my needs.

[thikone]

Indeed. And the DSOX2000 series from Keysight is one of the least interesting choices from the A brands. R&S RTB2004 is well worth considering.

The RTB2004 is nicer than the DSOX2000 but still not much competition for that Siglent SDS2000 HD.  It can't even compare to the much lower spec'd SDS2000X Plus.

So, spec is better for Siglent SDS2000X HD than for RTB2004. But Rigol MSO5000 is even better, is it not? Yet I see that most people suggest Siglent over Rigol.

I want to buy a decent oscilloscope and did some research. Rigol seems to be cheaper spec wise almost every time. But then I started noticing other aspects, like responsivness, ease of use and UI in general. And Rigol is not so great in this area. And for me this is a very important area. Good user interface means less frustration, more joy to use and ultimately I would use it more often, spend more time and do more project. At least it is so with my other hobby - woodworking.

It is very tempting to get SDS2000X+ that has 20% discount till end of this year. On the other hand, UI of RTB2004 is so nice and I must admit beautiful internals (for example, trigger implementation is such that it can trigger even on not active channel because there is a separate path from front-end to triggers logic), but not yet hacked. Hack, I even considering to get a loan from bank and buy MXO44 that has even better UI and bigger screen...

While I don't need many other qualities of A-brand scopes (long production life, certificates and such), B-brands just don't cut it in this respect.

Am I crazy or is there others who think this way? Not that I'm big fan of Apple, but what is equivalent of iPad in oscilloscope world?

[rsjsouza]

Am I crazy or is there others who think this way? Not that I'm big fan of Apple, but what is equivalent of iPad in oscilloscope world?

UI and niceties are very alluring. At work I have been using a larger number of oscilloscopes and the higher end models tend to have much faster processors to handle the UI. Due to the sheer cost of such equipment, however, the purchase decisions will forcefully require compromise. That is what an iPad or iPhone used to give you a few years ago: polish but at the expense of the latest features.

At home I drive an advanced Rigol (DS4014, hackable) and its UI is not as polished as the R&S RTA or as smooth as the KS DSOX3014A at work. However, I am convinced everyday of my decision at the time whenever I look at the bang per buck ratio of these two advanced models Hackability is what placed Rigol on the map and I would never be able to afford an equipment at such advanced level for my home.

[nightfire]

But a Fluke 101 is worth every penny if your hobby requires a "safe" meter. 

That thing can't even measure current.  I guess that way they don't even have to put a fuse in it.

This is very probably done intentional.
Two reasons to do so:
a) Manufacturer saves money on parts that are will not be used like input jacks and precision shunt resistors
b) As there is no low-impedance input, there is no possibility for the classic cause of accidents in leaving the test leads on amps and then attempt to probe voltages...
Some manufacturers like Hioki actively promote some versions of their multimeters with non-available Amps inputs as a measurement to increase work safety in critical environments.

[balnazzar]

So, spec is better for Siglent SDS2000X HD than for RTB2004. But Rigol MSO5000 is even better, is it not? Yet I see that most people suggest Siglent over Rigol.

Time to start a thread about the MSO5000's noise floor 

Am I crazy or is there others who think this way? Not that I'm big fan of Apple, but what is equivalent of iPad in oscilloscope world?

There is no equivalent of an iPad in the oscilloscope universe. In the tablet universe you pay some 500 bucks for a decent android tablet, and *less* than twice such price for an iPad.
When it comes to oscilloscopes, you still pay some 500 bucks for a decent (or almost) scope, but 10X that price for the iPad-ish equivalent (say, the KS 3000T).

[Hydrawerk]

Any thoughts on GW Instek? It should be probably OK.

[BillyO]

So, spec is better for Siglent SDS2000X HD than for RTB2004. But Rigol MSO5000 is even better, is it not? Yet I see that most people suggest Siglent over Rigol

No.  The SDS2000X HD is a much higher spec'd scope than the Rigol MSO5000.  Even the SDS2000X Plus is a better scope, all considered, than the Rigol and is now almost a low cost.

[BillyO]

Any thoughts on GW Instek? It should be probably OK.

They make some real nice stuff.  Generally speaking right in there with Siglent and Rigol.

[BillyO]

This is very probably done intentional.
Two reasons to do so:
a) Manufacturer saves money on parts that are will not be used like input jacks and precision shunt resistors
b) As there is no low-impedance input, there is no possibility for the classic cause of accidents in leaving the test leads on amps and then attempt to probe voltages...
Some manufacturers like Hioki actively promote some versions of their multimeters with non-available Amps inputs as a measurement to increase work safety in critical environments.

a) For sure.
b) Maybe, but it really limits the use of the device.  I find I need to take current readings all the time so a DMM like the Fluke 101 would just not work out for me as my only meter.  The only reason I can see having it as a 2nd meter is because of it's small size.  However, there are a lot of compact meters to be had for $50US that have a lot more going for them in terms of functionality than the little Fluke that for me woudl be better choices as a 2nd compact DMM.  The UT61 series comes to mind.

[nctnico]

Any thoughts on GW Instek? It should be probably OK.

They make some real nice stuff.  Generally speaking right in there with Siglent and Rigol.

Not quite. GW Instek has been around much longer and has a much bigger revenue. They certainly have carved out a place in the professional market for a long time already. Their gear typically works as it should (or it gets fixed quickly) and they offer a much wider range of instruments.

[BillyO]

Not quite. GW Instek has been around much longer and has a much bigger revenue. They certainly have carved out a place in the professional market for a long time already. Their gear typically works as it should (or it gets fixed quickly) and they offer a much wider range of instruments.

So you'd put them in the A group?  I'll go with your estimate here as I don't have hands on experience with GW Instek.  I was just gong by what I've read or seen on YT.

BTW, I have 4 products from Siglent - none are not working as they should.  One had some tiny issues, but Like I said, Siglent got back to me in less than 2 hours to resolve the problem.  Maybe I'm just lucky, but I'm not sure that is the case.  I think you will see Siglent make serious inroads into the professional market over the next decade.

[Fungus]

Not quite. GW Instek has been around much longer and has a much bigger revenue. They certainly have carved out a place in the professional market for a long time already. Their gear typically works as it should (or it gets fixed quickly) and they offer a much wider range of instruments.

So you'd put them in the A group?

As noted many times: "A group" has very little to do with the quality or abilities of the instruments (they can often be worse!). It's all about the support contracts, traceability, name recognition, etc.

(eg. "Nobody ever got fired for buying IBM")

[balnazzar]

Any thoughts on GW Instek? It should be probably OK.

They make some real nice stuff.  Generally speaking right in there with Siglent and Rigol.

VERY different kind of product. Made to feel very responsive and analog-like (a-la Keysight), but with less features w.r.t. Sig and Rigol (e.g. FRA, etc...) for the same price tag.

[nctnico]

Not quite. GW Instek has been around much longer and has a much bigger revenue. They certainly have carved out a place in the professional market for a long time already. Their gear typically works as it should (or it gets fixed quickly) and they offer a much wider range of instruments.

So you'd put them in the A group?  I'll go with your estimate here as I don't have hands on experience with GW Instek.  I was just gong by what I've read or seen on YT.

I'd put GW Instek in the Sub-A bracket. From what I see GW Instek optimises to deliver good equipment at a lower price that doesn't have so much advanced features so it takes less engineering & testing time to develop. Also they seem to be better at re-using software from earlier models so features implemented in earlier models get pushed forward to newer models.

I think you will see Siglent make serious inroads into the professional market over the next decade.

They may try but for as long as Siglent doesn't get firmware functionality & regression testing in order, they won't succeed. The professional market is all about being able to trust your test equipment. And by the time they succeed, Siglent gear will be just as expensive as buying from established A brands.

[Domitronic]

Or spareparts...Knob is lost ? no problem, here you have a new one.

Thats not valid for Tektronix. Asked them how much a repair of a knob on a 10 year old scope is. The encoder seems to be broken. Answer was that they don't even know if they have the part. I have to send the scope to Tektronix, and then they will check. This check costs already 700 Euros. And if they find they can't repair it because they don't have the part anymore the 700 Euro are gone.


Edit: The scope was already 13 years old at the time of the request for a quote.

[Fungus]

I have to send the scope to Tektronix, and then they will check. This check costs already 700 Euros. And if they find they can't repair it because they don't have the part anymore the 700 Euro are gone.

That's as an individual. You'll never see that if you're a corporate user because it'll be covered under your service contract.

And we're back to "the difference between 'A' and 'B' is the customer, not the product"

[Domitronic]

They may try but for as long as Siglent doesn't get firmware functionality & regression testing in order, they won't succeed. The professional market is all about being able to trust your test equipment. And by the time they succeed, Siglent gear will be just as expensive as buying from established A brands.

Tektronix has problems with regression testing as well. With a firmware update of 4 and 5 series earlier this year the ruined the roll mode which is really a basic thing. And with the new progress bar during boot they introduced "feature" that the scope freezes during boot as well. So you can pay much more and still get bad quality.

[Domitronic]

That's as an individual. You'll never see that if you're a corporate user because it'll be covered under your service contract.

Thats wrong, i don't use Tektronix at home. Asked for the company i work for. The reason they told me is that there is no long term support for this model anymore.

[Fungus]

Thats wrong, i don't use Tektronix at home.

OK, bad assumption.

The reason they told me is that there is no long term support for this model anymore.

Time to go dumpster diving in the bins of the big corporations that used to used that model ... get some spare parts. 

[nctnico]

That's as an individual. You'll never see that if you're a corporate user because it'll be covered under your service contract.

Thats wrong, i don't use Tektronix at home. Asked for the company i work for. The reason they told me is that there is no long term support for this model anymore.

So the time to buy a replacement is long overdue. If long term support is no longer available, then it must be a very old product so it has been written off several times over. You can't expect a product to be supported forever.

[Domitronic]

So the time to buy a replacement is long overdue. If long term support is no longer available, then it must be a very old product so it has been written off several times over.

Scope was 13 years old at time of request for quote for the repair. Usually we do not replace devices just because they are written off financially. We replace them when they are broken or outdated in terms of features. So yes, 13 years is quite old. But i would still think that Tek service is at least able to say upfront if they can repair it or not.

My point was just to say that quality and service are not perfect just because its a so called A brand. We still use and buy Tek because they offer features that others do not in the same price range. 6 channels, 12 bit, current probes with 1mA/div, differential probes and so on. But they have flaws as well and are not always high quality.

[mwb1100]

Or spareparts...Knob is lost ? no problem, here you have a new one.

Thats not valid for Tektronix. Asked them how much a repair of a knob on a 10 year old scope is. The encoder seems to be broken. Answer was that they don't even know if they have the part. I have to send the scope to Tektronix, and then they will check. This check costs already 700 Euros. And if they find they can't repair it because they don't have the part anymore the 700 Euro are gone.


Edit: The scope was already 13 years old at the time of the request for a quote.

You should request your money back.  They should never even ask for money to repair a device so old they don't have parts for it.  I don't know how easy or difficult it will be to get them to honor that refund request, but I'd take it as far up the chain of command to the CEO - it's just not right.

[nctnico]

Actually it is quite normal to pay an investigative fee if you want to have something repaired. Not just test equipment but this is also normal for TVs, washing machines, etc. Otherwise repair shops would be working overtime on diagnosing stuff that is beyond economical repair. Manufacturers are very picky about what they take in for repairs so they charge relatively high amounts of money. They don't want to deal with obsolete stuff they might not even have the tools for.

However, there are also third party repair shops for test equipment that might be able to help out with older test equipment that is no longer supported by the manufacturer. IIRC forum member jwalling does oscilloscope repairs for a living. It might be worthwhile to contact him.

[Domitronic]

You should request your money back.  They should never even ask for money to repair a device so old they don't have parts for it.  I don't know how easy or difficult it will be to get them to honor that refund request, but I'd take it as far up the chain of command to the CEO - it's just not right.

Come on, you are totally missing the point. No issue with paying for repair. The issue is that Tek doesn't even provide the repair service. Or at least don't know if they can. Even that is fine and i can understand their decision from business point of view. But i disagree to the wide generalization here that the A brands provide the best service and you can get spare parts without problems. That might have been true 1-2 decades ago. But its not today.

[Domitronic]

Manufacturers are very picky about what they take in for repairs so they charge relatively high amounts of money. They don't want to deal with obsolete stuff they might not even have the tools for.

Thats true, i fully agree on that. They are not interested in repairing the old devices and just want to sell a new one. Just the same and no better than many other companies which are not considered A brands.

However, there are also third party repair shops for test equipment that might be able to help out with older test equipment that is no longer supported by the manufacturer. IIRC forum member jwalling does oscilloscope repairs for a living. It might be worthwhile to contact him.

No, if equipment breaks down and can't be repaired by the manufacturer we replace it. Same of course if repair isn't worth-while. Don't even bother to find a third party repair shop or try to fix it ourselves. If its not usable anymore its finally going to the dumpster, no matter which brand.

Again, we still use and buy Tek because they have some good offers. But i disagree to the general myth of the flawless quality, the perfect service and the everlasting longevity of the A brand devices. Its simply not true (anymore).

[nctnico]

I never claimed longevity. From my experience, the service of the A brands and quality of the firmware is better. For sure the A-brands mess up every now and then but in the grand scheme of things it isn't bad.

[thikone]

Am I crazy or is there others who think this way? Not that I'm big fan of Apple, but what is equivalent of iPad in oscilloscope world?

UI and niceties are very alluring. At work I have been using a larger number of oscilloscopes and the higher end models tend to have much faster processors to handle the UI. Due to the sheer cost of such equipment, however, the purchase decisions will forcefully require compromise. That is what an iPad or iPhone used to give you a few years ago: polish but at the expense of the latest features.

At home I drive an advanced Rigol (DS4014, hackable) and its UI is not as polished as the R&S RTA or as smooth as the KS DSOX3014A at work. However, I am convinced everyday of my decision at the time whenever I look at the bang per buck ratio of these two advanced models Hackability is what placed Rigol on the map and I would never be able to afford an equipment at such advanced level for my home.

There is (or there was?) a promotion of RTB2000 scopes. I managed to snatch one fully loaded RTB2K-COM4 for "just" 4.272,00 EUR instead of 8k+ EUR...

Was hard to find it on stock though. A credit from my bank made it possible and also that I could request it from the bank's app on Sunday evening without going to bank in person. Thanks to RBBVNL9 for comprehensive compares to SDS2000X+, after watching them I decided that I "want" to get R&S. It really feels that R&S user interface compared to that of Siglent is like iOS 5.0 compared to early versions of Android. Also in a sense that even though SDS2000X+ has more features, those implemented in RTB2000 work just right (polished UI). And we can say at the price of iPad compared to an Android tablet. Oh well, I also say to myself that my first oscilloscope is also my second one, if that makes sense. At least as long as my car is cheaper than MXO4-COM4 and I would really "need" one.  

I'm mostly Arduino/STM32 and repair guy, managed to do without oscilloscope till now. Don't have logic analyzer either. USB to UART and STLink was enough. But always wanted to learn how to use oscilloscope. And for that I "wanted" a proper one.

[2N3055]

Am I crazy or is there others who think this way? Not that I'm big fan of Apple, but what is equivalent of iPad in oscilloscope world?

UI and niceties are very alluring. At work I have been using a larger number of oscilloscopes and the higher end models tend to have much faster processors to handle the UI. Due to the sheer cost of such equipment, however, the purchase decisions will forcefully require compromise. That is what an iPad or iPhone used to give you a few years ago: polish but at the expense of the latest features.

At home I drive an advanced Rigol (DS4014, hackable) and its UI is not as polished as the R&S RTA or as smooth as the KS DSOX3014A at work. However, I am convinced everyday of my decision at the time whenever I look at the bang per buck ratio of these two advanced models Hackability is what placed Rigol on the map and I would never be able to afford an equipment at such advanced level for my home.

There is (or there was?) a promotion of RTB2000 scopes. I managed to snatch one fully loaded RTB2K-COM4 for "just" 4.272,00 EUR instead of 8k+ EUR...

Was hard to find it on stock though. A credit from my bank made it possible and also that I could request it from the bank's app on Sunday evening without going to bank in person. Thanks to RBBVNL9 for comprehensive compares to SDS2000X+, after watching them I decided that I "want" to get R&S. It really feels that R&S user interface compared to that of Siglent is like iOS 5.0 compared to early versions of Android. Also in a sense that even though SDS2000X+ has more features, those implemented in RTB2000 work just right (polished UI). And we can say at the price of iPad compared to an Android tablet. Oh well, I also say to myself that my first oscilloscope is also my second one, if that makes sense. At least as long as my car is cheaper than MXO4-COM4 and I would really "need" one.   

I'm mostly Arduino/STM32 and repair guy, managed to do without oscilloscope till now. Don't have logic analyzer either. USB to UART and STLink was enough. But always wanted to learn how to use oscilloscope. And for that I "wanted" a proper one.

Nice commercial for R&S.. You paid 2000€ more than for Siglent that is more capable because you like R&S design. It is nice that you're happy. Good for you.
Having to take a loan to buy a scope for a hobby would be a giant red flag for me...

I personally don't buy anything Apple because it is not worth it. Android phone works just fine for me. For fraction of fraction of money. I guess we are all different and have different priorities.

That being said, since you say it is your first scope, be prepared for steep learning curve.. Be patient there is lot to learn and read. R&S has many documents you should read.. So you can actually use the scope to the full.

Best,

[balnazzar]

I personally don't buy anything Apple because it is not worth it. Android phone works just fine for me. For fraction of fraction of money. I guess we are all different and have different priorities.

I don't buy Apple phones as well because I just make calls with my phone and not much else. But for laptops (not desktops) and tablets, I buy Apple. Just 1 grand will give you a fanless laptop that is very well built, faster than a windows laptop that costs twice that price, and with a battery that lasts 12-15 hours. For tablets, I do a lot of note-taking, and the iPad provides a much better writing experience than the high-end android tablets I tested.

[Black Phoenix]

I don't buy Apple phones as well because I just make calls with my phone and not much else. But for laptops (not desktops) and tablets, I buy Apple. Just 1 grand will give you a fanless laptop that is very well built, faster than a windows laptop that costs twice that price, and with a battery that lasts 12-15 hours. For tablets, I do a lot of note-taking, and the iPad provides a much better writing experience than the high-end android tablets I tested.

I'm in this with you. My last iPhone was the 5S, and I'm still a iPod user.

Currently running an Android. But the new M1 is definitely a powerful, game changing chip. For desktops I prefer the custom build route.

Android Tablets the only one that really hit the mark is not manufactured anymore, the nVidia Tegra. Currently there is no market equivalent for the iPad.

[Fungus]

But the new M1 is definitely a powerful, game changing chip.

Maybe so, but you have to put up with MacOS if you want to use it.

[thikone]

Nice commercial for R&S.. You paid 2000€ more than for Siglent that is more capable because you like R&S design. It is nice that you're happy. Good for you.
Having to take a loan to buy a scope for a hobby would be a giant red flag for me...

It was just about moment, here is the sale and only 3 scopes on stock in one web shop. The remaining two were sold out two days later. Not really wanting to wait for 5 years for similar promotion on MXO4 or MXO2 made me act pretty quick. I don't have any other loans, but my other hobby (woodworking) drains all free money from me. Free time is the most valuable for me. If only I could have all these tools and equipment when I had school holidays back then...

I personally don't buy anything Apple because it is not worth it. Android phone works just fine for me. For fraction of fraction of money. I guess we are all different and have different priorities.

I'm not a big fun of Apple either, don't like closed systems... But, they were the first to put GSM modem INSIDE the tablet and add capacitive touch screen to it. That's why I bought iPad1 right away when I saw it. To put it to perspective, there was HP tablet with Windows XP at that time with stylus and GSM modem would have to be inserted into USB port... beh.

That being said, since you say it is your first scope, be prepared for steep learning curve.. Be patient there is lot to learn and read. R&S has many documents you should read.. So you can actually use the scope to the full.

Speaking of steep learning curve, it took me a few evenings to actually compensate probes properly. RTB2000 actually shows you how to connect probes as picture on the screen... but I was blind to see. Probe has to be connected without cap and without ground wire but directly to calibration output. Otherwise, there were too many oscillations and higher noise. RTB2000 has a guide or "wizard" on probe calibration with real time assessment of how good it is set. Looks very useful to me, training wheels

Also ground has to be connected closer to the probe point, not to power supply output far away with lots of current. Lucky me, my father is EE and I can ask him. When he saw my waves he said that probes are not compensated or oscilloscope is broken. That was a stressful moment, but it was probes and the ground (I connected only one probe to ground and far away).

Still looking for a comprehensive text book on modern digital oscilloscopes. Something like The Art of Electronics but about scopes and measuring and instrumentation. So far found some old good books from Tektronix and some very sophisticated on measuring. Need some sort of reference on how to measure, how it should look like and how to fix the wrongs. One more reason to get a proper scope is not to doubt the instrument.

[balnazzar]

For desktops I prefer the custom build route.

Same here!

[balnazzar]

Maybe so, but you have to put up with MacOS if you want to use it.

True. I still find MacOS to be inferior to windows, overall. But it's super-optimized for the hardware.

[Martin72]

Still looking for a comprehensive text book on modern digital oscilloscopes.

This you can forget, trust me.
I´ve been looking for years for it, it doesn´t exist.
Although all manuals are written in such a way that one obviously assumes that the user knows how a DSO works.
Examining white papers and knowing about digital signal processing seems to be the key.
And white papers you can get from all big brands, but also from siglent.

[nctnico]

As a beginner it is a good idea to have peak-detect enabled by default. That will prevent from becoming surprised by aliasing.

[james_s]

But a Fluke 101 is worth every penny if your hobby requires a "safe" meter. 

That thing can't even measure current.  I guess that way they don't even have to put a fuse in it.

That's an advantage in some use cases. How many times have we seen somebody stick the probes in a wall socket or worse with them plugged into the current jacks? Really you should be using a clamp probe for line voltage stuff.

The Fluke 101 is a low cost meter with the reliability and safety of Fluke. It's not something I'd buy, but that doesn't mean it isn't a good value, it could be perfectly well suited for an electrician.

[2N3055]

Still looking for a comprehensive text book on modern digital oscilloscopes.

This you can forget, trust me.
I´ve been looking for years for it, it doesn´t exist.
Although all manuals are written in such a way that one obviously assumes that the user knows how a DSO works.
Examining white papers and knowing about digital signal processing seems to be the key.
And white papers you can get from all big brands, but also from siglent.

It's time I write one... 

[Martin72]

Do it, otherwise I will someday....

[thikone]

It's time I write one... 

Would be nice indeed.

On the other hand, maybe literature review would also do it. Or compilation from different sources. I might try to do that as I go further with my learning curve, to note where I read what and what I learnt from practice...

I noticed that The Art of Electronics, the third edition, has a chapter on oscilloscopes and a chapter on transmission lines that I study now. And I remember low pass and high pass filters from that book, and differentiation and integration of signal.

Another book "An Introduction to Electrical Instrumentation" by Gregory, 1977 has interesting chapter 4.2 - Components impurity effects on signals. Also explains nicely (to me at least) what stands behind probes compensation and that at some unfavorable conditions oscillation might occur with probes connected.

Is it really like each time something to be measured some calibration or attenuation to the circuit being measured is needed?

Would then playing with embedded generator be useful as to get sense of what is on the scope and then what should be in reality?

[balnazzar]

People on this forum with decades of experience and good theoretical knowledge should really join efforts and write down that mythical textbook about oscilloscopes.

[nctnico]

IMHO the best place to start is the user manual of an oscilloscope (or any piece of test equipment) and the application notes / instruction videos to get a good grasp of what an instrument is capable of.

[balnazzar]

IMHO the best place to start is the user manual of an oscilloscope (or any piece of test equipment) and the application notes / instruction videos to get a good grasp of what an instrument is capable of.

That's good advice, but I was thinking about a *general* textbook, upon which to learn how an oscilloscope really works (including all the theory about DSP in that context) and how to build one.

[thikone]

That's good advice, but I was thinking about a *general* textbook, upon which to learn how an oscilloscope really works (including all the theory about DSP in that context) and how to build one.

That would be nice, too. But there are things that are not so obvious that I have the biggest fear about.

For example, where I connect the ground makes a lot of difference, while in general it doesn't matter or can be ignored.

Another one is that digital scopes automatically limit bandwidth after going to some low mV per division of vertical resolution. Noted that while reading discussion thread on RTB2000 here... This should be in the scope manual or application notes, right?

[BillyO]

Still looking for a comprehensive text book on modern digital oscilloscopes.

This you can forget, trust me.
I´ve been looking for years for it, it doesn´t exist.
Although all manuals are written in such a way that one obviously assumes that the user knows how a DSO works.
Examining white papers and knowing about digital signal processing seems to be the key.
And white papers you can get from all big brands, but also from siglent.

It's time I write one... 

It would be obsolete by the time you finished the first page.

[nctnico]

That's good advice, but I was thinking about a *general* textbook, upon which to learn how an oscilloscope really works (including all the theory about DSP in that context) and how to build one.

That would be nice, too. But there are things that are not so obvious that I have the biggest fear about.

For example, where I connect the ground makes a lot of difference, while in general it doesn't matter or can be ignored.

Another one is that digital scopes automatically limit bandwidth after going to some low mV per division of vertical resolution. Noted that while reading discussion thread on RTB2000 here... This should be in the scope manual or application notes, right?

That is in the oscilloscope's datasheet and/or user manual. Although there are not many oscilloscopes out there that automatically limit the bandwidth.  Typically a lot of details that are basically specifications can only be found in the manual. The datasheet is more like a cursory spec. sheet.

[BillyO]

IMHO the best place to start is the user manual of an oscilloscope (or any piece of test equipment) and the application notes / instruction videos to get a good grasp of what an instrument is capable of.

That's good advice, but I was thinking about a *general* textbook, upon which to learn how an oscilloscope really works (including all the theory about DSP in that context) and how to build one.

On top of the user manual you could take a gander at this: https://www.tek.com/en/documents/primer/oscilloscope-basics

[2N3055]

It would be obsolete by the time you finished the first page.

Is that a reference to me being slow  or you mean that relevance of data changes too fast.

Data about how to use and how digital scopes work are not really changing so quickly. Fact is that there was never a book on digital scopes written by anybody.
It would be possible to explain general concepts without going into implementation details and just speak about good practice and such...
Good explanation of sampling, memory depth, etc etc..

[Fungus]

Still looking for a comprehensive text book on modern digital oscilloscopes.

I think Dave's done a video on just about every aspect of oscilloscope usage.

The problem is finding them all.

[2N3055]

Still looking for a comprehensive text book on modern digital oscilloscopes.

I think Dave's done a video on just about every aspect of oscilloscope usage.

The problem is finding them all.

Dave made many nice videos. But there are many topics he didn't do or did very simplified. And you are correct 100% problem is that they are not organized into didactical structure and are hard to find. And therefore hard to learn from.

[BillyO]

Still looking for a comprehensive text book on modern digital oscilloscopes.

I think Dave's done a video on just about every aspect of oscilloscope usage.

The problem is finding them all.

Did you have a look at this: https://www.tek.com/en/documents/primer/oscilloscope-basics

[Martin72]

Fact is that there was never a book on digital scopes written by anybody.

There is a book in german avaible and it´s mainly a kind of manual of the authors scope...

A good useful book could build like this:
- Short explanation for what a scope good for is.
- Block diagrams of analog and digital scope, short explanation of the differences between the two.
- Then taking the single blocks of the DSO diagram as chapters where the functions will be explained.
- After this some measure examples to understand how the whole blocks are working together.
- Additional functions explanations like FFT, Decoding, Measures, XY mode and so on