"A" brand instruments vs "B" brand

[BillyO]

If you have $3200 to spend on an oscilloscope you could:

A) Get this: https://www.keysight.com/ca/en/product/DSOX2014A/oscilloscope-100-mhz-4-analog-channels.html

or

B) Get this: https://int.siglent.com/products-overview/sds2000hd/

Some folk around here have the idea that in general it is not like the B-brands are equivalent to the A-brands in any way.  I have to agree.  The "A" brands can't hold a candle to the "B" brands dollar for dollar.  Quite frankly it's embarrassing that Keysight even offer that DSOX2014A at all.  It can barely compare with a $500 scope from the "B" brands.  But it has "Keysight" written on it.  That alons has to be worth #2500, right?

Of course, if you have the price of a nice suburban family home burning a hole in you pocket and feel you need a 50GHz scope to test your $5000 speaker cables, then Keysight and Tek have you covered and the "B" guys don't have a thing to offer.

[Fungus]

'A' brands offer a different sort of value:





You may not see it as a hobbyist, but it's there for plenty of people.

[nctnico]

Indeed. And the DSOX2000 series from Keysight is one of the least interesting choices from the A brands. R&S RTB2004 is well worth considering.

[BillyO]

'A' brands offer a different sort of value:

You may not see it as a hobbyist, but it's there for plenty of people.

Oh sure.  That really applies to the 50 GHz scopes that cost the same as a nice house and Fluke's $500+ meters, but not to hobbyist level stuff.  A Fluke 105 meter or a Keysight DSOX2000/Tek Series 2 scope are just not worth the money they are asking for them.  They are not where all that R&D money has gone, nor all the care in meeting standards. Compared to what you can get for the money elsewhere they are next to useless.

[BillyO]

Indeed. And the DSOX2000 series from Keysight is one of the least interesting choices from the A brands. R&S RTB2004 is well worth considering.

The RTB2004 is nicer than the DSOX2000 but still not much competition for that Siglent SDS2000 HD.  It can't even compare to the much lower spec'd SDS2000X Plus.

[Fungus]

not to hobbyist level stuff.

You're perfectly free not to buy them.

eg. I've decided to never own a Fluke 87V and I sleep perfectly well at night.

Corporate users love them though. Watch the video for all the reasons why Fluke will still be making the 87V a hundred years from now and purposely never making a "better" meter.

A Fluke 105 meter or a Keysight DSOX2000/Tek Series 2 scope are just not worth the money they are asking for them.

But a Fluke 101 is worth every penny if your hobby requires a "safe" meter. 

[nctnico]

Indeed. And the DSOX2000 series from Keysight is one of the least interesting choices from the A brands. R&S RTB2004 is well worth considering.

The RTB2004 is nicer than the DSOX2000 but still not much competition for that Siglent SDS2000 HD.  It can't even compare to the much lower spec'd SDS2000X Plus.

Just try them both and you'll think differently for sure. Especially if you need protocol decoding. There is a thread where a forum member does a functional comparison between these scopes and the RTB2004 comes out on top for most use cases. It is a huge mistake to just go by the datasheet. 90% of makes a good instrument isn't in the datasheet.

In another thread you mentioned you are doing semi-professional photography. I doubt you are using a US $200 compact camera to take pictures. I'm not going to try and convince you that my $200 compact camera is equal to your professional camera because it has the same resolution and also has 10x zoom.

[BillyO]

Just try them both and you'll think differently for sure. Especially if you need protocol decoding.

Have you read the specs?  The SDS2000X Plus and HD come with protocol decoding - free.  Right now now on the SDS2000X Plus version they are even throwing in advanced protocol decoding and the thing has a sticker price of $999, less than 1/3 the Keysight.  Even the $499 SDS1000X-E series has protocol decoding included.

Protocol decoding was one of the reason I bought my SDS2104X Plus.  I have already used it for that purpose and solved my problem.  Seems to work as advertised.

[BillyO]

But a Fluke 101 is worth every penny if your hobby requires a "safe" meter. 

That thing can't even measure current.  I guess that way they don't even have to put a fuse in it.

[nctnico]

Just try them both and you'll think differently for sure. Especially if you need protocol decoding.

Have you read the specs?  The SDS2000X Plus and HD come with protocol decoding - free.  Right now now on the SDS2000X Plus version they are even throwing in advanced protocol decoding and the thing has a sticker price of $999, less than 1/3 the Keysight.  Even the $499 SDS1000X-E series has protocol decoding included.

Protocol decoding was one of the reason I bought my SDS2104X Plus.  I have already used it for that purpose and solved my problem.  Seems to work as advertised.

You only know the hammer. Now try the screwdriver... Protocol decoding is implemented so much better on the RTB2004 -for starters-. Do yourself a favour and dig up the thread with the functional comparison and see what you are missing out on.

[BillyO]

In another thread you mentioned you are doing semi-professional photography. I doubt you are using a US $200 compact camera to take pictures. I'm not going to try and convince you that my $200 compact camera is equal to your professional camera because it has the same resolution and also has 10x zoom.

You're right, but it's needs based, just like electronics.

Maybe you can give one specification the Keysight has for $3K that the Siglent doesn't have for $1K, or are we stuck with "Keysight has a certain Je ne se qua".

The truth is the Siglent out performs the Keysight.  The $200 compact camera does not come close to an SLR system with a full range of lenses.

[Bud]

You've been quite agressive since your appearance on the forum. Take a step back and think about this.

[BillyO]

Do yourself a favour and dig up the thread with the functional comparison and see what you are missing out on.

Actually I'd like to.  Do you remember the title?

[nctnico]

The truth is the Siglent out performs the Keysight.  The $200 compact camera does not come close to an SLR system with a full range of lenses.

And I'm telling you the latter is also largely true for the former. Largely where is comes to useability but the RTB2004 is even better.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/functional-comparison-of-rs-rtb2000-siglent-sds2000x-and-keysight-dsox1000/msg3922118/#msg3922118

[Fungus]

But a Fluke 101 is worth every penny if your hobby requires a "safe" meter. 

That thing can't even measure current.

I can't imagine wanting it to when I'm poking around mains AC, but that's your business.

[aduinstat]

I have a SDS2104X+ at home, and a Tektronix MSO24 at work. I like the Siglent a lot more; I think the software is just better. However, the Siglent does not have a traceable calibration, an easy way to clear the memory, or a battery pack. Also, Siglent is Chinese, and that would not fly at work.

[nctnico]

I hope nobody is looking at the back of the Tektronix then. Likely it says 'made in China'.

[aduinstat]

I hope nobody is looking at the back of the Tektronix then. Likely it says 'made in China'.

Yeah, but the company itself is American.

[Martin72]

Some folk around here have the idea that in general it is not like the B-brands are equivalent to the A-brands in any way.  I have to agree.  The "A" brands can't hold a candle to the "B" brands dollar for dollar.  Quite frankly it's embarrassing that Keysight even offer that DSOX2014A at all.  It can barely compare with a $500 scope from the "B" brands.  But it has "Keysight" written on it.  That alone has to be worth #2500, right?

It´s not that easy imho.
First of all I don´t like the A and B thing.
Better we should call it "O"(ld) brand and "N"(ew) brand...
Or C(heap) brand and E(xpensive) brand.
Or...or....or...
See, it´s not that easy to difference.
Classified in A and B, e.g. I wouldn´t call siglent or rigol as B-brands today.
Both got high quality products which aren´t cheap anymore, siglent working together with lecroy and rigol developing their own chipsets..
But both didn´t forget their "roots" and still offering cheap scopes for example.
So what they are, A, B, or AB...
And what are Hantek, Owon, Fnirsi...D,E, F Brands ? 

Back to your example with the keysight.
Yes, for it´s price you can get a scope from e.g. siglent which blast the mentioned keysight out of space in nearly every case.
Except in one, two, three..
Warranty (5yrs), reputation, support...
Last is a killer point for professionals.
In this case, the "old" brands blast the new ones away.
24h support, I got a question and a useful quickly response will follow, answered by skilled engineers.
Or spareparts...Knob is lost ? no problem, here you have a new one.
This kind of support costs money, in relation lots of money...
If siglent/rigol would offer this too, that would have a huge effect on their prices.
And on their portfolio - they couldn´t offer really cheap products anymore.
Or they have to buy it from other, Hantek, Owon for example..

[tautech]

I have a SDS2104X+ at home, and a Tektronix MSO24 at work. I like the Siglent a lot more; I think the software is just better. However, the Siglent does not have a traceable calibration, an easy way to clear the memory, or a battery pack.

What exactly does this mean ? 

Also, Siglent is Chinese, and that would not fly at work.

Would a LeCroy T3DSO2000A be acceptable instead ?
Maybe you recognize them:
https://teledynelecroy.com/oscilloscope/t3dso2000-series-oscilloscopes

[BillyO]

I can't imagine wanting it to when I'm poking around mains AC, but that's your business.

Better throw My Brymen 786 in the garbage then as I do use it on the mains and it has several current ranges.   

[BillyO]

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/functional-comparison-of-rs-rtb2000-siglent-sds2000x-and-keysight-dsox1000/msg3922118/#msg3922118

Thank you sir!

[aduinstat]

I have a SDS2104X+ at home, and a Tektronix MSO24 at work. I like the Siglent a lot more; I think the software is just better. However, the Siglent does not have a traceable calibration, an easy way to clear the memory, or a battery pack.

What exactly does this mean ? 

They have a feature called TekSecure. Basically, you hit a button, and it erases all data that has been saved to it. It's useful if the scope contains sensitive information. I'm there must be some way to that on the Siglent, and maybe I'm blind, but I have not found it.

    Also, Siglent is Chinese, and that would not fly at work.

Would a LeCroy T3DSO2000A be acceptable instead ?
Maybe you recognize them:
https://teledynelecroy.com/oscilloscope/t3dso2000-series-oscilloscopes

I don't think anyone here would be thrilled if they knew what they were.

[BillyO]

It´s not that easy imho.

Of course it's not.  You do realize I'm playing devil's advocate here..

And what are Hantek, Owon, Fnirsi...D,E, F Brands ? 

More like E,D,Z..

Warranty (5yrs), reputation, support...

Warranty looks nice as long as you a professional working for a company.  Hobbyists need not apply.

24h support, I got a question and a useful quickly response will follow, answered by skilled engineers.

Last time I contacted Siglent via their web page I had a call back in 2 hours.  With Korad it was next day, but they both stayed on teh case until we resolved my issues.

Or spareparts...Knob is lost ? no problem, here you have a new one.

The Korad issue required parts.  They shipped them to me from China in 3 days.  The Korad PS was under $300.  It was out of warranty so I had to pay for the new mainboard.  $40.

And on their portfolio - they couldn´t offer really cheap products anymore.

Well, they do offer products that should be a whole lot cheaper in order to be competitive.

[tautech]

I have a SDS2104X+ at home, and a Tektronix MSO24 at work. I like the Siglent a lot more; I think the software is just better. However, the Siglent does not have a traceable calibration, an easy way to clear the memory, or a battery pack.

What exactly does this mean ? 

They have a feature called TekSecure. Basically, you hit a button, and it erases all data that has been saved to it. It's useful if the scope contains sensitive information. I'm there must be some way to that on the Siglent, and maybe I'm blind, but I have not found it.

Look in the Save/Recall menu for Secure Erase.