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| A broken 34470A and Keysight's terrible customer service |
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| Antonio90:
--- Quote from: bd139 on August 28, 2021, 03:17:32 pm --- --- Quote from: Antonio90 on August 28, 2021, 03:10:52 pm ---On top of that, us amateurs and hobyists are most likely to break our equipment due to improper use and lack of knowledge. --- End quote --- Couple of problems with that statement. Firstly some of us are or were professionals that happen to just be doing something else now. And secondly "professionals" are definitely on par with blowing equipment up. I have seen a couple of things turned to charcoal in a lab environment. Also on principle, why should a business have a different warranty to a consumer? What is the objective of the consumer protection? Well simply put it's supposed to reduce the cost impact of buying something that fails quickly and secondly to reduce the environmental impact of short life equipment. Should those not be business objectives? The end game is the consumer pays anyway as the responsibility gets pushed up to the nest of businesses which have to lump their equipment costs into the sales cost. --- End quote --- Many of you are, indeed, but I bet most of us are not. I don't really know though, so my point can just be taken as invalid. There are many principles involved as far as I'm concerned. There are those you listed, and then there is the general lack of equilibrium of power between the parties of some legal relationships. The best example is labor law, which is basically a set of benefits an warranties for the labourer, to limit the, otherwise exorbitant, power of the company over the employee. In consumer law the situation is similar. It is assumed that the end consumer has no real power in his relationship with bigger players on the market, and there are a set of rules to protect him by legally binding any company that sells to an end customer. It includes warranty and repairs, but also especial rules for litigation, a lot of limitations regarding which contractual clauses are valid,an extensive right of withdrawal, and quite a few others. The point I was trying to make is that, for most practical purposes, a company loses its ability to decide on which terms the sale is made. I can't really decide whether that is mostly bad or mostly good, but I can understand why a company might not want to play in a market with those rules. And there is no point necessarily for the business warranty to be different. There is just no perceived need to "protect" them as the consumers are protected, in general terms. As such the warranty will be as offered by the seller, or as negotiated by the "equal" parts on the sale. There might be other regulations regarding the availability of parts, possibility of repair, disposal and recycling of equipment and so on, but I don't know much about that. |
| Antonio90:
--- Quote from: tggzzz on August 28, 2021, 03:34:17 pm --- --- Quote from: Antonio90 on August 28, 2021, 03:10:52 pm ---It becomes clear that Keysight is completely out of the hobbyist market. --- End quote --- HP/Agilent/Keysight test equipment was never in the hobbyist market! It is too high end and too expensive. That's not the point. The point is they have changed their policy about equipment you already bought on the understanding you would be able to have them service it. --- Quote ---On top of that, us amateurs and hobyists are most likely to break our equipment due to improper use and lack of knowledge. --- End quote --- I've broken things while working as an electronic engineer; embarassing! I've had things break while working as an electronic engineer; irritating. --- End quote --- Yeah, my point about hobbyist and pros was not very clever on hindsight. It was mostly motivated by picturing myself using test equipment ::) And there have been a lot of points besides that one on the thread. But anyway, If their support included consumers when the item was bought, It should include them now too indeed, and I bet, if you can prove that your use is professional enough, or that you are contracted as a professional, any court will say you're entitled to get support as any other business. |
| YetAnotherTechie:
--- Quote from: Antonio90 on August 28, 2021, 03:10:52 pm ---The consumer laws in Europe are rather protective towards the private buyer. And, as was previously stated, It means agreeing to potentially unfavourable terms, which include a fixed warranty time and the seller's burden of the proof in proving the cause of failure, amongst other things. On top of that, us amateurs and hobyists are most likely to break our equipment due to improper use and lack of knowledge. --- End quote --- In KS case, EU consumer warranty law is de facto irrelevant, since the manufacturer warranty exceeds it by a long shot. Today, on KS website, buying online to Portugal: For a low range DSOX2002A Oscilloscope, 2-channel, 70MHz 1358€ KeysightCare Technical Support - 5 years Return to Keysight Warranty - 5 years For a 34461A Digital multimeter, 6 1/2 digit, Truevolt DMM 1041€ KeysightCare Technical Support - 3 years Return to Keysight Warranty - 3 years These are among the cheapest products a hobiest or consumer can get from KS. And i disagree that in this range a consumer or hobbiest is higher risk for warranty damage. A hobbiest or consumer would find this gear expensive and take serious care not to damage it, while this kind of equipment in a company or more likely a school/university will be thrown around and handled by the most inept and "it's not mine" kind of asses. I believe their position probably has more to do with safety/EMC/REACH rules than warranty. German users should know more, because when i bought parts as a consumer for a VW or BMW car, on the box many had a symbol of a man, and a man in coveralls with a wrench, where the normal man was crossed, i.e. don't sell to non professionals, so they've had this rule for years, somewhere on a thread it was mentioned that being picky started with KS Germany. |
| rsjsouza:
--- Quote from: bd139 on August 28, 2021, 03:17:32 pm ---Also on principle, why should a business have a different warranty to a consumer? What is the objective of the consumer protection? Well simply put it's supposed to reduce the cost impact of buying something that fails quickly and secondly to reduce the environmental impact of short life equipment. Should those not be business objectives? --- End quote --- Quite honorable but not realistic. A business, however small, has the much higher potential of getting back to you for their next high $$$ purchase - you treat them very well. Individuals, not only are much more swayed by the used market (which could very well be a limiting factor in providing service for consumers) but put less weight in the value added of service contracts. Do I like that stance? Surely not, as I am myself an individual consumer of products. |
| floobydust:
How does it matter to Keysight Repair Dept. if a multimeter comes in for repair from Mr. Big Co. that has 100 units in service- or Mr. Small Fish that owns only one? There's no difference, other than paperwork for the owner's info and an account to bill in the end. Are these even repaired in the UK? I think it might have to get shipped across the pond to USA. They'd have the replacement boards, test/cal fixture, special firmware etc. at HQ. edit: no, that's all in china where they're manufactured. I thought Keysight UK is just too lazy to ship anything back home marked "No commercial value - Item for repair". |
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