Author Topic: A broken 34470A and Keysight's terrible customer service  (Read 23437 times)

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Offline tggzzz

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Re: A broken 34470A and Keysight's terrible customer service
« Reply #125 on: August 29, 2021, 11:22:58 pm »
Whether they are still good at this post the shitshow that  Carly Fiorina generated is open to question.

Princess Carly can be blamed for many things, but not the Agilent spinoff.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline Cerebus

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Re: A broken 34470A and Keysight's terrible customer service
« Reply #126 on: August 29, 2021, 11:53:24 pm »
Whether they are still good at this post the shitshow that  Carly Fiorina generated is open to question.

Princess Carly can be blamed for many things, but not the Agilent spinoff.

I thought she was there pre-spinout but I'm quite happy to ascribe that to failing memory. It's the same thing in principle though, even if she personally was not the direct instigator, put MBAs and beancounters who've had the operation* in charge of something that ought to be run by human beings, preferably ones that are also engineers.

*Heart out, cash register in.
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Offline rsjsouza

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Re: A broken 34470A and Keysight's terrible customer service
« Reply #127 on: August 30, 2021, 01:55:08 am »
No way to spin it- looks like a shit policy for OP and Keysight UK, and the no-communication says plenty :-//  I want a job where I can just stick my head in the ground, do nothing and get paid. Hey PR dept and exec get off the golf course already.
In a corporate environment I won't buy equipment from manufacturers that are known to discriminate or screw over customers. Sure Tier 1 can afford all the drama, delay, breakdowns, shipping etc. and I would not be personally affected much, but for small guys this PFO can be devastating.
You confuse me with some corporate shill trying to spin this - get over it. Listen and learn that's the reality in many of the corporate environments that have R&D, support, etc.

As for leaving the little guy behind, it is indeed a terrible policy and should at least not affect folks currently under warranty.
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: A broken 34470A and Keysight's terrible customer service
« Reply #128 on: August 30, 2021, 08:20:31 am »
Whether they are still good at this post the shitshow that  Carly Fiorina generated is open to question.

Princess Carly can be blamed for many things, but not the Agilent spinoff.

I thought she was there pre-spinout but I'm quite happy to ascribe that to failing memory. It's the same thing in principle though, even if she personally was not the direct instigator, put MBAs and beancounters who've had the operation* in charge of something that ought to be run by human beings, preferably ones that are also engineers.

*Heart out, cash register in.

She was there for months not years before spinout, but apinout would have happened with or without her.

UK HP employees will remember that period well. Most of us had HP shares, and one moment we had £X, the next £X minus the tax due on the Agilent portion of that £X. Many HMRC inspectors couldn't believe that, but it was true. The split was done in a way that didn't matter in the US, but did in the UK.

About a week before the end of the tax year, it was announced that the tax would be CGT rather than income tax?! Result: most people flogged their Agilent shares pronto, so as not to have a CGT liability. I suspect HMRC and HP had had many behind the scenes conversations.
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Offline Alex Nikitin

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Re: A broken 34470A and Keysight's terrible customer service
« Reply #129 on: September 11, 2021, 11:21:25 pm »
Just when I thought about buying the 34465A for my own home lab...  :palm: . If I understand the situation correctly, Keysight won't sell me one directly and if I buy from RS or Farnell I am up the creek without a paddle after the 3 year warranty is finished (and even during that time the best I can hope for is an exchange from RS/Farnell, might even have trouble with that). And I won't have a chance to calibrate the meter at Keysight ... . It looks like I have to look for other options, not from them.  :wtf:

Cheers

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Offline floobydust

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Re: A broken 34470A and Keysight's terrible customer service
« Reply #130 on: September 11, 2021, 11:35:38 pm »
I'd reach out and phone Agilent UK and ask them what the post-warranty repair policy is, in writing. Or go to the HQ in USA and ask. The corporation is too big for anyone there to care enough to stick out their neck and answer this crap.
United Kingdom; Telford   0800 0260637, Winnersh 0800 0260637
Neither is listed as a "Keysight Authorized Service Provider".
Worse yet, they seem to be changing things:
"Coming soon – new Keysight Support portal will provide personalized access for all of your support needs including Keysight Infoline Support."
"Now incorporating KeysightCare, Infoline and myKeysight portals"
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Nothing listed for the UK.
 

Offline philpem

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Re: A broken 34470A and Keysight's terrible customer service
« Reply #131 on: September 12, 2021, 01:39:44 am »
The date of the change and the region it applies to seem to point pretty much directly at it being some sort of Brexit consequence.[/color][/size][/b]

The Brexit possibility is an interesting one. Given the fetish the current UKgov has for their ridiculous, separate "UKCA" scheme to "compete" with the CE-mark -- it's not entirely impossible that KS UK might have decided the safest route to take with non-UKCA kit is to simply stop supporting it.

Can't be done legally - don't do it at all...

It is disappointing. My U1251A is finally starting to wear out. I was going to order another from Farnell this coming week - but I might well go back to buying Fluke. Or even just some cheap Chinese DMM if the level of support is going to become somewhat equal (ie equally poor!) across the board!
« Last Edit: September 12, 2021, 01:41:36 am by philpem »
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Offline oz2cpu

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Re: A broken 34470A and Keysight's terrible customer service
« Reply #132 on: January 09, 2022, 09:27:08 pm »
I was 10 sec away from ordering a brand new 34470A today.. saw this thread, but now i put the decision on hold..
please tell me i am wrong ?
or what else to get, with same or better specs, thanks..
yes i will be ordering it from Germany
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Offline 2N3055

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Re: A broken 34470A and Keysight's terrible customer service
« Reply #133 on: January 09, 2022, 09:44:37 pm »
I was 10 sec away from ordering a brand new 34470A today.. saw this thread, but now i put the decision on hold..
please tell me i am wrong ?
or what else to get, with same or better specs, thanks..
yes i will be ordering it from Germany
User Dr.Frank did some measurements:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keysight_s-new-34465a-(6-5-digit)-and-34470a-(7-5-digit)-bench-multimeters/msg889219/#msg889219

Also there were some problems with ACAL on 34470...
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/keysight-34470a-calibration-and-acal-problems/msg2314671/#msg2314671

I'm curious, would you be maybe better served with TWO 34465 than a single 34470 ?  >:D  Price would be similar...


 
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Offline Kleinstein

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Re: A broken 34470A and Keysight's terrible customer service
« Reply #134 on: January 09, 2022, 09:49:18 pm »
An alternative meter to the 34470 could be the DMM7510.
 
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Offline HalFoster

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Re: A broken 34470A and Keysight's terrible customer service
« Reply #135 on: January 09, 2022, 09:59:20 pm »
I'm an owner of a 7510 and have nothing but praise for it - love the display and the ease of use.

Hal
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Offline kcbrown

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Re: A broken 34470A and Keysight's terrible customer service
« Reply #136 on: January 09, 2022, 11:48:24 pm »
I'm based in the UK, where there is no such thing as a business license and VAT registration is only required for turnovers greater than £85,000 - so Keysight are effectively discriminating against small businesses just in case someone wants to buy a 7.5 digit multimeter for domestic use.
Quit whining and register a business. Gets you a lot of perks as well like being able to shop at all kinds of stores selling to companies only.

Since this thread has been brought to the fore again, I thought I'd respond to this.

Registering and maintaining a business has costs associated with it, both initial and recurring, and both in terms of time and out of pocket expense.  Those costs will obviously vary from country to country, as well as with the type of business, but they exist all the same.  If what we were talking about here were something that was itself a recurring thing, then doing that might well be justifiable.

But what we're talking about here is a one time repair, or, at least, one-time acquisition of parts.  That already has costs associated with it.  At some point, the cost of dealing with the malfunction plus the cost of setting up and maintaining the business will exceed the price of a replacement unit, after which the original unit will be able to act as a source of spare parts if nothing else.

I can't tell at what point those costs intersect, but won't be surprised if that would be a handful of years at most.

In any case, registering a business and going through all of the things required to maintain it seems quite excessive just for the "privilege" of getting your test equipment repaired.  It may be that having such a "business" gets you some perks.  But that's irrelevant here.  People who have real use for those perks and who have decided that they're worth the additional hassle and expense will have already registered a business, making this a non-issue for them in the first place.  The OP is clearly not such a person.  For him, his sole purpose of going out of his way to register and maintain the business would be to make repair of his unit possible.   That is excessive.  At a minimum, he will be without use of his unit until the registration is approved.

And because a future repair may be necessary, it may (depending on the laws in his country) be necessary for him to maintain his "business" simply to have the option of a later repair.  Or it may be that he can perform the registration, get the unit repaired, and then immediately terminate the "business", and recreate it at whatever point he may need a future repair.

His alternative is to simply purchase an equivalent replacement unit, likely from a different manufacturer who will actually stand behind their products purchased by an individual in the UK, and to sell the 34470A (thus offsetting the cost somewhat) or keep it for parts.

Frankly, if I were the OP, and absent circumstances that I'm not aware of, there wouldn't even be a question in my mind of the proper approach here: I'd replace the unit with one from a manufacturer that isn't stupid enough to jeopardize its future sales like Keysight is clearly doing here.  Since Keysight has clearly decided that individuals are not worth anything to them, the OP has plenty of incentive to, in his own way, make it clear to them exactly what the consequences of such a myopic policy is: the loss of business both from this individual and from any company he has sufficient influence over.

If Keysight's decision here turns out to be a beneficial one for them, then more power to them.  But I see no reason whatsoever for an individual to play their game.  It's only by changing our purchasing actions that we as individuals can cause Keysight to see the real consequences of their policy, for better or for worse.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2022, 11:52:09 pm by kcbrown »
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: A broken 34470A and Keysight's terrible customer service
« Reply #137 on: January 10, 2022, 12:33:55 am »
I'm based in the UK, where there is no such thing as a business license and VAT registration is only required for turnovers greater than £85,000 - so Keysight are effectively discriminating against small businesses just in case someone wants to buy a 7.5 digit multimeter for domestic use.
Quit whining and register a business. Gets you a lot of perks as well like being able to shop at all kinds of stores selling to companies only.

Since this thread has been brought to the fore again, I thought I'd respond to this.

Registering and maintaining a business has costs associated with it, both initial and recurring, and both in terms of time and out of pocket expense.  Those costs will obviously vary from country to country, as well as with the type of business, but they exist all the same.
Not really. In most western countries you can register a company for free or for very low expenses. Accountants like to portray them as absolutely necessary but in reality they are not.

Another option is ofcourse to bring your equipment to a Keysight reseller for service. After all, you don't bring your car to the factory for repairs but you have it serviced at a dealer or universal garage. Test equipment is no different. I'm quite surprised that this thought hasn't occured to others (or they keep quiet about it).
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Online mawyatt

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Re: A broken 34470A and Keysight's terrible customer service
« Reply #138 on: January 10, 2022, 12:41:58 am »
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Offline kcbrown

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Re: A broken 34470A and Keysight's terrible customer service
« Reply #139 on: January 10, 2022, 01:03:07 am »
Not really. In most western countries you can register a company for free or for very low expenses. Accountants like to portray them as absolutely necessary but in reality they are not.

It'll obviously depend on the country.  But note that the expenses involved aren't just a question of money, they're a question of the individual's time.

That said, from what I can find about the question of registering a limited business in the UK, it looks pretty minimal, about 13 pounds initially and then the same amount once per year after that.  I've no idea how much effort goes into the registration, however.


Quote
Another option is ofcourse to bring your equipment to a Keysight reseller for service. After all, you don't bring your car to the factory for repairs but you have it serviced at a dealer or universal garage. Test equipment is no different. I'm quite surprised that this thought hasn't occured to others (or they keep quiet about it).

Automobile dealerships quite obviously have the facilities to perform repairs, and never have to send the car back to the factory for repairs.  The factories don't do repairs: the dealerships do.  I'd be most interested in which test equipment resellers have official (manufacturer-approved) on-site repair capabilities.  My bet is "none".

That makes it a somewhat apples to oranges comparison.  It may be that a given reseller would be willing to act as the intermediary between Keysight and the individual for the repair in question, but unless that individual bought his equipment from that reseller, I'm skeptical that they'd be willing to do any such thing.  And seeing how Keysight's contract with resellers demands that they warrant that the equipment they sell be used only by companies and professionals for industrial use, I'm deeply skeptical that the contractual terms they have with Keysight would allow them to send an individually-owned piece of equipment back to Keysight for repairs in any case.

Even so, that's something the OP should consider attempting.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2022, 01:10:05 am by kcbrown »
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: A broken 34470A and Keysight's terrible customer service
« Reply #140 on: January 10, 2022, 01:45:12 am »
Not really. In most western countries you can register a company for free or for very low expenses. Accountants like to portray them as absolutely necessary but in reality they are not.

You keep saying this or something like this, and repeatedly multiple people, some of whom have done it multiple times say that this is not so.  Who, on the balance of probabilities, is more likely to have the better grasp on the facts? Presumably you have the facts to hand, including a list of fees for "most western countries"? You couldn't possibly be extrapolating from the one country that you have done this in once? No, surely not.

Let's examine that for a handful of countries, for the smallest, simplest limited liability corporation.

UK*, £10-£40 on incorporation (depends on route), £13-£40 confirmation fee each year.
France, not simple or straightforward, seems to require lawyers, suggested costs €2000 minimum initial cost.
Germany, "Company formation fee:  the company formation fee for opening a legal entity in Germany is approximately 1,800 euros." Minimum capital of €25,000.
Italy, minimum cost in government fees 309.87 EUR each year assuming you're doing all the work yourself.
Netherlands, Non-recurring registration fee of € 51.95.

Hmm, haven't seen any "free" yet, and my suspicion that one might form a simplistic idea if one was judging the expense and complexity from experience only in the Netherlands seems to be forming up as right.

* This is the only one I have done myself. The naked registration fees are misleading as to the true costs and complexity. You can register a company in the UK doing all the work yourself and just paying official registration fees, you also can get into a right mess if you get it wrong and frankly you're a fool if you don't get a company registrations agent to do it for you for a fee that's at most £200. If you register for VAT, which is in itself free, you will have to buy HMRC approved software to make electronic VAT returns, and you will have to make quarterly VAT returns every quarter, even if they are zero, or you will get fined. You will also have to make returns to companies house every year and will get fined if you don't or submit late (the fines are stiff enough that it is a really bad idea to incur them). Keeping up with VAT and annual returns incurs a non-trivial cost in time, even if you don't pay someone else to manage it for you (e.g. accountant). It would be a lot of palaver and risk to acquire just to do business with Keysight.
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Offline KaneTW

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Re: A broken 34470A and Keysight's terrible customer service
« Reply #141 on: January 10, 2022, 05:10:50 am »
Germany, "Company formation fee:  the company formation fee for opening a legal entity in Germany is approximately 1,800 euros." Minimum capital of €25,000.

Sorry, but no. Registering as a self-employed person (which grants you a VAT ID) costs nothing or basically nothing. VAT handling isn't difficult as well.

Even if you want to have limited liability, you can get by with less than 500 EUR and a minimum capital of 1 EUR to form a UG. The 25k limit is for a GmbH.
 
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Offline HighVoltage

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Re: A broken 34470A and Keysight's terrible customer service
« Reply #142 on: January 10, 2022, 10:16:58 am »
I was 10 sec away from ordering a brand new 34470A today.. saw this thread, but now i put the decision on hold..
please tell me i am wrong ?
or what else to get, with same or better specs, thanks..
yes i will be ordering it from Germany

It depends largely on your plan for the 34470A.

If you want to have reliable DC absolute comparison with 7 1/2 digits resolution forget the 34470A because of the ACAL problems! For this purpose, the DMM7510 is a much better instrument.

On the other hand, if you want reliable low DC current measurements, the 34470A is better than the DMM7510.

And the 34465A is recommended every time. This instrument I would buy again and again with no hesitation.

It always depends on what you want to do with such instrument.

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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: A broken 34470A and Keysight's terrible customer service
« Reply #143 on: January 10, 2022, 10:30:16 am »
Quote
If you register for VAT, which is in itself free, you will have to buy HMRC approved software to make electronic VAT returns, and you will have to make quarterly VAT returns every quarter, even if they are zero, or you will get fined
And there is an additional hidden cost in that most accounting software nowadays is a subscription service.

TBH I do wonder if Keysight actually check any of this. 
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Offline Cerebus

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Re: A broken 34470A and Keysight's terrible customer service
« Reply #144 on: January 10, 2022, 10:40:36 am »
Germany, "Company formation fee:  the company formation fee for opening a legal entity in Germany is approximately 1,800 euros." Minimum capital of €25,000.

Sorry, but no. Registering as a self-employed person (which grants you a VAT ID) costs nothing or basically nothing. VAT handling isn't difficult as well.

Even if you want to have limited liability, you can get by with less than 500 EUR and a minimum capital of 1 EUR to form a UG. The 25k limit is for a GmbH.

Given the context, what do Keysight want you to be before they will do business with you? "Self-employed" doesn't cut it as far as Keysight are concerned. That's already well established in this thread. Neither does having just a VAT number, all Portuguese have personal VAT numbers and one of them has said that wasn't enough for Keysight.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2022, 10:42:46 am by Cerebus »
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Offline oz2cpu

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Re: A broken 34470A and Keysight's terrible customer service
« Reply #145 on: January 10, 2022, 12:00:17 pm »
i just send back a 34465A due to sometimes wrong readings, it took me 3 x 24 hr to reveal this bug, it only did it 3 times,
one random button pressed, fixed the readout

now i hear it was with old firmware, now they upgrade it, it was LOCKED for firmware upgrades, WTF a nasty feature...
and hopefully i can redo my experiments soon..
« Last Edit: January 10, 2022, 12:44:07 pm by oz2cpu »
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Offline SilverSolder

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Re: A broken 34470A and Keysight's terrible customer service
« Reply #146 on: January 11, 2022, 04:00:44 am »
Quote
If you register for VAT, which is in itself free, you will have to buy HMRC approved software to make electronic VAT returns, and you will have to make quarterly VAT returns every quarter, even if they are zero, or you will get fined
And there is an additional hidden cost in that most accounting software nowadays is a subscription service.

TBH I do wonder if Keysight actually check any of this.

I think you can get Excel add-ins that can upload VAT returns? - so maybe doesn't need to be expensive...
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: A broken 34470A and Keysight's terrible customer service
« Reply #147 on: January 11, 2022, 04:02:14 am »
i just send back a 34465A due to sometimes wrong readings, it took me 3 x 24 hr to reveal this bug, it only did it 3 times,
one random button pressed, fixed the readout

now i hear it was with old firmware, now they upgrade it, it was LOCKED for firmware upgrades, WTF a nasty feature...
and hopefully i can redo my experiments soon..

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Offline TheSteve

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Re: A broken 34470A and Keysight's terrible customer service
« Reply #148 on: January 11, 2022, 06:20:24 am »
i just send back a 34465A due to sometimes wrong readings, it took me 3 x 24 hr to reveal this bug, it only did it 3 times,
one random button pressed, fixed the readout

now i hear it was with old firmware, now they upgrade it, it was LOCKED for firmware upgrades, WTF a nasty feature...
and hopefully i can redo my experiments soon..

Of course firmware updates are locked - you have to put in a code(which is in the manual) to perform an update as in a commercial environment its possible a firmware update will change something and mess up your automated test routines etc. It is pretty standard in high end commercial gear.
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Offline Saskia

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Re: A broken 34470A and Keysight's terrible customer service
« Reply #149 on: July 31, 2022, 06:06:08 pm »
wanted some spares. Was told by Keysight that without VAT-ID I could not get any service, support, etc.

I found a buyer for my MSOX3054T and my 2002. Will put up my N6700 and my Logic Analyzer Mainframe as well.

My replacement scope is a R+S, my DMMs are now Fluke or Keithley.
Needless to say, won't be buying Keysight for use at work ...
 
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