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| A broken 34470A and Keysight's terrible customer service |
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| KaneTW:
--- Quote from: Cerebus on August 27, 2021, 01:12:00 am ---The point isn't whether it is or is not a good idea for the circumstances of a particular business. It is whether an existing business should be forced to do this, incurring ongoing costs and risks, just to get service from Keysight for a Keysight product that Keysight or one of their distributors has already sold them. --- End quote --- Sounds like a matter for the lawyers to figure out the specifics of. Keysight's decision sucks but I'm sure it's not unprompted. |
| tv84:
Let me organize a couple of ideas here: 1 - Keysight has all the power to make such a decision, regarding it doesn't go against any law. (Although I think this may put many KS resellers in danger of legal procedures, at least in the EU...) 2 - It's not a Keysight Germany decision. A decision of this type must have the approval at the highest level in Keysight. (If it doesn't then someone's head will be cut off.) 3 - Resellers could serve as intermediate servicing points and all would be good but most don't want to go that route or, at least, the customer won't want the hassles and to pay the extra of having a middle man. 4 - The VAT BS matter, because of creating a business for this, reminds me that occasion when we want to see a specific football game and subscribe to a premium TV channel. 6 months later we are still paying the subscription... |O In this case: - "Honey, what are all these taxes and expenses with this company Calib_Me that we have been getting these last 6 years?" Husband answers: - "Oh darling, it's something I created to have my DMM calibrated back then..." :palm: 5 - Daniel is a great guy :clap: :clap: :clap: and, as many in many companies, goes the extra mile in providing official and personal support to any problem he sees he can do some difference, always defending his mother company. His message is a responsible message, well written and (IMHO) the only one he could write in such conditions. The "sense in the air" is that he isn't too comfortable (replace with agreeable if you prefer) with this decision. But it's truly beyond his powers. Don't take it hard on him, go through the official channels. 6 - Regarding what people can do: those that can/want to go the legal way in some specific cases, are entitled and encouraged to. To the rest I say this: we all have our powers also. Privately, be it our hobby or own business, we can choose to not buy KS as long there are other brands that can do the job. Secondly, and the most important since it's the one that surely calls KS attention, in our circles or influence or on our procurement/advisory positions inside each big company many of us work, we can advocate in not choosing KS because of the type of assurances this company provides to minor guys (one day, any one of us can be in the lower side of the scale). All the KS people that should be squeezed against the wall, are the account managers, sales directors and CSOs that come to our doors trying to push the maintenance contracts and all the new product lines! Those are the moments where they must explain their support strategy and/or balance it with a much lower price in order to convince us in buying the product/service. The only thing that will make them listen: their wallet. If they continue to grow in numbers, no reason to rollback. |
| 6thimage:
In theory, I'm not against registering a business, but as others have pointed out, practically it is not worth the time, money and effort to do so - I doubt I'll ever make enough money from this side business to justify the overheads of registering for VAT or as a company, and if I do, that's when I'll register. I have had a further email from Keysight: --- Quote ---In January 2021, Keysight changed it’s company policy when addressing the sales, support or services to consumers and/or private individuals. This includes the provision of technical support, repair, calibration services and the sale of replacement parts. Under this new policy, Keysight can only sell to businesses, and provide services under the terms of the warranty or agreement of the product. A business is considered registered with Companies House or has a valid VAT ID number. --- End quote --- So at least we have a date for when the change came in - were there any particularly large consumer law changes in 2020? It seems to be a little late for a reaction to the 2015 UK law. |
| AVGresponding:
--- Quote from: 6thimage on August 27, 2021, 12:16:10 pm ---In theory, I'm not against registering a business, but as others have pointed out, practically it is not worth the time, money and effort to do so - I doubt I'll ever make enough money from this side business to justify the overheads of registering for VAT or as a company, and if I do, that's when I'll register. I have had a further email from Keysight: --- Quote ---In January 2021, Keysight changed it’s company policy when addressing the sales, support or services to consumers and/or private individuals. This includes the provision of technical support, repair, calibration services and the sale of replacement parts. Under this new policy, Keysight can only sell to businesses, and provide services under the terms of the warranty or agreement of the product. A business is considered registered with Companies House or has a valid VAT ID number. --- End quote --- So at least we have a date for when the change came in - were there any particularly large consumer law changes in 2020? It seems to be a little late for a reaction to the 2015 UK law. --- End quote --- Well, that date is the first day of Britain outside the EU, so presumably it's some bizarre Brexit side-effect? |
| Cerebus:
--- Quote from: tv84 on August 27, 2021, 07:35:48 am ---6 - Regarding what people can do: those that can/want to go the legal way in some specific cases, are entitled and encouraged to. To the rest I say this: we all have our powers also. Privately, be it our hobby or own business, we can choose to not buy KS as long there are other brands that can do the job. Secondly, and the most important since it's the one that surely calls KS attention, in our circles or influence or on our procurement/advisory positions inside each big company many of us work, we can advocate in not choosing KS because of the type of assurances this company provides to minor guys (one day, any one of us can be in the lower side of the scale). All the KS people that should be squeezed against the wall, are the account managers, sales directors and CSOs that come to our doors trying to push the maintenance contracts and all the new product lines! Those are the moments where they must explain their support strategy and/or balance it with a much lower price in order to convince us in buying the product/service. --- End quote --- Just that, with this addition. In deciding whether to purchase Keysight, even if you're unaffected by the current fracas, it is well to remember that what brought this to the fore is people who bought Keysight products in good faith, who are now being denied support by a change in Keysight's policies. By the way, Keysight could have had their new policy and avoided all this shit if they'd say "... but only for new sales. We will support products that we have already sold and are in the field." What could happen to you if you are currently on the list of people that Keysight will deal with and then, after you've spent your money, they say "Sorry, change of policy, we won't support you any more."? More than anything else this is about Keysight reneging on the implicit agreement that if you buy their products you can get support for their products. It's equivalent to Ford selling you a car and a few months later telling you that you can only use their dealer network or get parts from them if you're a business - within their own narrow definition of business that excludes a significant number of existing businesses that they have actively marketed to. The question when it's time for a purchasing decision will be "We've seen them pull the rug out from under some of their customers, can we trust them not to do it to us? Even if we think we're likely OK, do we want to support a company like behaves like that?". There are an increasing number of businesses that have "ethical purchasing" policies and this is the kind of behaviour that could fall foul of them. I run a small, tiny even, consulting business but my clients can be very large. There is already one huge supplier that is now on my "will not recommend" list because of encountering exactly the same kind of dumb headed intransigence in dealing with their support operation - different issue but the same kind of "We're doing this our way, stuff you Mr. Customer, no matter what the facts are." attitude. The consulting contract I had at the time was with a division of a Fortune 500 company that had millions to potentially spend on their kit, you can figure the rest out for yourself - let's just say that the salesman from their main rival had a good year . Never, never, in business (or life in general) piss off someone or demonstrate to them how you'll screw someone over just because you think they don't matter, they may be much more important to your future than you think - most importantly, drum this into your most junior customer facing staff, they have the potential to do immense damage to your reputation by "just following company policy" in a rigid and intransigent manner. BTW, "Company-name support lack of" turns out to be quite a good search term for spotting these issues with a potential supplier and is now damning for Keysight. :-DD |
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