A broken 34470A and Keysight's terrible customer service

[6thimage]

My 34470A (7.5 digit multimeter) died 2 weeks ago - it was happy logging away one moment, beeped and then the screen went white with some random black vertical lines on it. It now will not boot and can't make it into the bootloader - from a while back, there is a serial connector on the back of the front panel where you can normally see boot messages (from both u-boot and the multimeter's firmware), but nothing comes out of it.

Whilst I'm annoyed at any piece of equipment failing (who isn't), what is by far the most irritating is Keysight's response to all of this, which I think is best summed up by their last email to me:

Keysight products are designed, manufactured, and tested for professional and industrial use. They are not designed or tested for personal, domestic, or household use. While we thank you for your interest in our products and/or services, we are unable to provide you with technical support without a VAT ID or equivalent proof of business license.

I'm based in the UK, where there is no such thing as a business license and VAT registration is only required for turnovers greater than £85,000 - so Keysight are effectively discriminating against small businesses just in case someone wants to buy a 7.5 digit multimeter for domestic use.

So whilst I'm trying to find any possible way to convince them into even considering repairing it, I thought it might be worth bringing to people's attention so anyone who's self-employed / a contractor / runs a small business knows to avoid Keysight.

[Kean]

See also this thread
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/keysight-(lack-of)-calibration-other-services/

[bd139]

Wankers. Sue them.

If you’re a private buyer (implied if you don’t have an account with someone) and you bought it as a retail customer you should still be protected by CRA 2015 on this. https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/reclaim/consumer-rights-refunds-exchange/

Keysight do not have a leg to stand on because they don’t get to specify if its a B2C or B2B transaction unless they sold directly to a business. Resellers are bound by this too. The CRA2015 is statutory legislation they can’t revoke.

Check the other thread about this. Keysight give such a shit that they didn’t even bother to reply and their usual forum rep has clammed up.

I would never recommend them to anyone.

Edit: actually they told you that you are a consumer so that makes them liable under CRA2015  . Fucking morons.

[Cerebus]

Let's make this clear, if you are in the UK, are a self-employed professional and don't need to register for VAT (and have chosen not to) you will be left high and dry by Keysight.

It's about time that someone in Keysight (That's a hint Daniel if you're watching) should get through the thick heads of the bureaucrats inside Keysight Germany that this will not fly in the UK and will at some point result in a lawsuit, sure as eggs is eggs. Better still, get to the root of it and find out why Keysight Germany have taken it into their heads to pursue this policy and get them to review it and come up with a new policy that is customer friendly, not customer hostile. As this stands, there are professional customers that cannot prove to Keysight Germany's satisfaction that they are professional customers and not consumers.

As it stands I shall be forced to recommend to anyone who doesn't have a registered company and/or is not VAT registered that they avoid Keysight products at all costs until this mess is sorted out. That's personally embarrassing as it means that I have to backpedal on around 40 years of saying "Buy HP, they'll always see you right.". It's a bloody stupid company that goes out of its way to avoid acquiring new customers, it's bloody stupid company that spends years building brand loyalty and then puts a loyal and enthusiastic customer (me) in the position that they have to start saying "Sorry, it isn't the HP we knew and loved anymore, take your money somewhere else.".

I'm in a quandary myself. Sure, I've got a VAT registered limited company that would satisfy Keysight Germany's bureaucrats but I've got a lot of HP/Agilent/Keysight gear that I own personally and use with my 'hobbyist' hat on. What do I do, finagle it all through my consulting company if I need to, or just start unloading my HPAK kit and replacing it with someone else's kit so that when/if I wind the company up I've got some hope of getting support for it?

Edit: If they're not careful they'll get a new nickname around here: "LockBlind" because once they've got your money locked up they'll be blind to any appeals for help.

[bd139]

That’s one reason I only buy rancid old stuff with service manuals from HPAK territory. You’d be insane to put money into anything expensive now unless you can afford for it to drop dead the day after the warranty is up. And the cost benefit there points more favourably to the likes of Siglent and Rigol.

I would evaluate whether or not you are actually a business customer or not though and kick up a stink via that route as they certainly don’t get to dictate terms to consumers.

[Saskia]

this is actually somewhat strange as I have received service from Keysight not too long ago as a private person.

What good is it to participate in that keysight university stuff, maybe even win something and then not get it calibrated ?

[bd139]

Well clearly you can sell it on eBay and buy something else that you can get calibrated 

[Zucca]

I am sure most Keysight people will be pissed like you as well.

DO NOT SELL IT, I think there are still something to do at the Keysight side.

I PM Keysight DanielBogdanoff I am sure he will clear the air up.

I am an home hobby TEA guy as well, and KS treated me like a king in the past. You just got the wrong idiot guy on your path.

[Cerebus]

this is actually somewhat strange as I have received service from Keysight not too long ago as a private person.

What good is it to participate in that keysight university stuff, maybe even win something and then not get it calibrated ?

The only people I've noticed speaking up who've experienced this are British, or at least based in the UK. Odd that your experience, in Germany, is different given that we're being told that this policy is being driven by Keysight Germany.

[Saskia]

Well, Keysight did not want to sell me a Mainboard for a 2000 series scope without my returning the old one.
But I can see their point in that.
Apart from that I have had direct access to their engineers, and they did open tickets for me.

Also their reseller, Datatec, did provide immediate service when I called them. I got my MSOX3054T through Datatec by Keysight intervention. They did not want me to buy an R&S ...

[bdunham7]

My 34470A (7.5 digit multimeter) died 2 weeks ago - it was happy logging away one moment, beeped and then the screen went white with some random black vertical lines on it. It now will not boot and can't make it into the bootloader -
So whilst I'm trying to find any possible way to convince them into even considering repairing it, I thought it might be worth bringing to people's attention so anyone who's self-employed / a contractor / runs a small business knows to avoid Keysight.

Is it still within the factory warranty??  Where did you purchase it from?

[tv84]

You just got the wrong idiot guy on your path.

Could be but not very likely.

The email answer is too much polished to be a daydream from a wary employee. It must be something indoctrinated into them, probably with ex-EU state members...   

[nctnico]

I'm based in the UK, where there is no such thing as a business license and VAT registration is only required for turnovers greater than £85,000 - so Keysight are effectively discriminating against small businesses just in case someone wants to buy a 7.5 digit multimeter for domestic use.

Quit whining and register a business. Gets you a lot of perks as well like being able to shop at all kinds of stores selling to companies only.

[TheSteve]

Have you tried calling them on the phone?

[bd139]

Quit whining and register a business. Gets you a lot of perks as well like being able to shop at all kinds of stores selling to companies only.

This is a bit wrong. The situation in the UK is:

1. Business -> get fecked over for minimum warranty.
2. Individual -> statutory "fit for purpose" warranty if the supplier or sellers gives a shit or not.

[6thimage]

Wankers. Sue them.

I'm hoping it doesn't come to that.

As it stands I shall be forced to recommend to anyone who doesn't have a registered company and/or is not VAT registered that they avoid Keysight products at all costs until this mess is sorted out. That's personally embarrassing as it means that I have to backpedal on around 40 years of saying "Buy HP, they'll always see you right.". It's a bloody stupid company that goes out of its way to avoid acquiring new customers, it's bloody stupid company that spends years building brand loyalty and then puts a loyal and enthusiastic customer (me) in the position that they have to start saying "Sorry, it isn't the HP we knew and loved anymore, take your money somewhere else.".

I'm in a quandary myself. Sure, I've got a VAT registered limited company that would satisfy Keysight Germany's bureaucrats but I've got a lot of HP/Agilent/Keysight gear that I own personally and use with my 'hobbyist' hat on. What do I do, finagle it all through my consulting company if I need to, or just start unloading my HPAK kit and replacing it with someone else's kit so that when/if I wind the company up I've got some hope of getting support for it?

I really like Keysight gear, their bench multimeters are better than any other manufacturer and their scopes are fantastic, but if this is how they treat you then I'm not going to buy anything else from Keysight. I'm in a similar position to you, it's personally owned, but I could potentially use my work's company - it just doesn't feel right and I definitely shouldn't have to.

That’s one reason I only buy rancid old stuff with service manuals from HPAK territory. You’d be insane to put money into anything expensive now unless you can afford for it to drop dead the day after the warranty is up. And the cost benefit there points more favourably to the likes of Siglent and Rigol.

I would evaluate whether or not you are actually a business customer or not though and kick up a stink via that route as they certainly don’t get to dictate terms to consumers.

I do miss old manuals with the schematics in them, they made life so much easier. I'm going to look into the consumer side of it, but I know very little about law.

I am sure most Keysight people will be pissed like you as well.

DO NOT SELL IT, I think there are still something to do at the Keysight side.

I PM Keysight DanielBogdanoff I am sure he will clear the air up.

I am an home hobby TEA guy as well, and KS treated me like a king in the past. You just got the wrong idiot guy on your path.

I'm hoping I can convince them - I'm more likely to try and fix it myself rather than selling it in its current state. I'm hoping Daniel might see this, but I will PM him. I've interacted with them on many ocassions before and they've been brilliant, which makes their current stance so awful. I doubt it's just one person, I've been going back and forth with them for the last two weeks without any success.

Is it still within the factory warranty??  Where did you purchase it from?

Unfortunately not, it was purchased in 2015 (from Farnell).

Quit whining and register a business. Gets you a lot of perks as well like being able to shop at all kinds of stores selling to companies only.

It's tempting to, but it seems like a lot of effort when I don't really need a registered business for anything else.

Have you tried calling them on the phone?

That is my plan for tomorrow - I prefer email as I have a record of everything, but it might be worth a shot.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Wankers. Sue them.

I'm hoping it doesn't come to that.

What would you sue them for ? If it's out of warranty, you don't have a case unless you can show a manufacturing defect that was always there.

[Cerebus]

I'm based in the UK, where there is no such thing as a business license and VAT registration is only required for turnovers greater than £85,000 - so Keysight are effectively discriminating against small businesses just in case someone wants to buy a 7.5 digit multimeter for domestic use.

Quit whining and register a business. Gets you a lot of perks as well like being able to shop at all kinds of stores selling to companies only.

So you're volunteering to pay his registration fees, accountancy costs, and to keep on top of the annual statutory paperwork for him? No? Thought not. Easy to advocate something when you have no idea whatsoever what's involved. The overhead of having an official small company in the UK is a few thousand a year, which is precisely why so many people in the UK go down the self-employed route, where all you have to do is file a tax return, and you have to do that anyway even as an ordinary employee.

[joeqsmith]

Was it still under warranty? 

Keysight products are designed, manufactured, and tested for professional and industrial use.

Seems like an odd statement.   As I look around my home lab, I see seventeen pieces of Hewlett Packard and Agilent branded equipment.  I would expect my environment is pretty light and easy compared with industrial.   Now if I am a professional or not, I think that's up for grabs.   

I wonder why the meter died.  Sounds like you had been into it at one point to sniff the bus prior to it failing.  Maybe lack of proper ESD control.   I figure, once I take it apart, they are off the hook. 

[6thimage]

What would you sue them for ? If it's out of warranty, you don't have a case unless you can show a manufacturing defect that was always there.

There's a possibility it's a manufacturing defect, but proving it would be almost impossible - I just hope I don't have to talk to a lawyer!

I wonder why the meter died.  Sounds like you had been into it at one point to sniff the bus prior to it failing.  Maybe lack of proper ESD control.   I figure, once I take it apart, they are off the hook. 

It does seem odd - in my mind there I've either missed a power supply on the board (all that I've found are at the correct voltage) or it is the main processor that has failed. Yes, I had been into it many years before this happened (and I know ESD isn't always instant), but whenever I've it up I've used proper ESD techniques.

[HighVoltage]

I would call Keysight Germany directly and clear this up.
They are always very helpful and I would be surprised if they can not help you.

Your email was probably answered by the wrong guy.
We call them "Schnösel" in German and unfortunately we have too many of them in this country.
But don't give up on Keysight, they are a good company!

[nctnico]

I'm based in the UK, where there is no such thing as a business license and VAT registration is only required for turnovers greater than £85,000 - so Keysight are effectively discriminating against small businesses just in case someone wants to buy a 7.5 digit multimeter for domestic use.

Quit whining and register a business. Gets you a lot of perks as well like being able to shop at all kinds of stores selling to companies only.

So you're volunteering to pay his registration fees, accountancy costs, and to keep on top of the annual statutory paperwork for him? No? Thought not. Easy to advocate something when you have no idea whatsoever what's involved. The overhead of having an official small company in the UK is a few thousand a year, which is precisely why so many people in the UK go down the self-employed route, where all you have to do is file a tax return, and you have to do that anyway even as an ordinary employee.

Actually I do know because I have a registered company for over a quarter of a century. In the UK a Private Unlimited Company is pretty similar to what I'm operating under in the NL. Required paperwork and costs are minimal and easy to do yourself. As a one-man-band you can easely use an Excel sheet for administration; no need to make it more complex than necessary or use an external accountant.

[bd139]

I’ve been doing this for 20 years. You’re trivialising a lot of work which can be avoided.

And also from a warranty perspective it excludes you from consumer legislation which is advantageous most of the time.

[nctnico]

I’ve been doing this for 20 years. You’re trivialising a lot of work which can be avoided.

For sure there is a learning curve but accountants are grossly overselling the complexity of their work when it comes to dealing with small companies which don't have employees / share holders. Administration in itself is easy if you can do basic calculus and nowadays you can find everything you need to know on internet. The only thing is that there are several administrative specific terms which sound more complicated than they actually are. Interestingly the Dutch tax forms don't even use these terms if they can be avoided.

And also from a warranty perspective it excludes you from consumer legislation which is advantageous most of the time.

But in turn this excludes you from dealing with companies that only sell to businesses (which is kind of the subject of this thread). I'm buying lots of stuff from companies that don't sell to consumers at all; for me having a company registration is part of being able to do business. Why would a wholesale company expose themselves to all the nitty gritties of consumer law? And it is not like new test equipment typically has a short warranty. 3 years is pretty common which is even better compared to consumer law!

[Zucca]

I really like Keysight gear, their bench multimeters are better than any other manufacturer and their scopes are fantastic, but if this is how they treat you then I'm not going to buy anything else from Keysight.

1000 times this! I have my spider senses telling me that this could be true and not a single dumb case.

1) Money is money and a customer is a customer. What is this VAT ID bullshiiit? Did you take or not take my money in the past? Did you ask for my VAT ID? 

2) The glorious Ebay Keysight store will go down like a Boeing 737 max.

3) HP --> Agilent --> Keysight -(I have the next for you)-> VATIDisKey

VAT ID people are probably stressed and bored at work. Hobbyist have so much passion and can't wait to use their awesome gear again.
Well done KS, all your most passionate customers are jumping off your boat. I am sure the lower KS eng. are with us. I am in the fortunate position to met some of them in the past.
Awesome people.

This is monumentally stupid. Somebody with a good salary, a nice tie and good smell at KS will regret this.

6thimage Open a thread on the repair section and let we help you, do not give up. Soon or later will we win this battle. It's a 34470A, it needs to be saved.