A more reliable replacement for Brymen BM869S?

[Fungus]

I think that depends more on the "job" than the brand.  Consider the Fluke 289.  Say it offered features that I need for the job.  It currently costs $700.  But wait, UNI-T offers the UT181A knockoff, with a fancy color display and a few more features for less than half the price of the Fluke.    Maybe you would consider the Fluke a luxury.

I guess if you're a millionaire then a Mercedes-Benz S-Class is "just a car" (might as well get a nice one, right?)

The Majority of people wouldn't think that though.

If Uni-T were a car they'd be something like a TVR - fast and good looking, but will spend more time at the workshop than on the road.

[Fungus]

I would say Brymen is a notch below when compared to the Agilents and Flukes that I have in terms of quality of materials but it is still well above the average of the marketplace.

Agilents are flimsy, despite their price tag. Joe Smith's broken some just by turning the dial a few thousand times. Their transient survivability's below par, too.

Compare the nice clicky sound at the start of the video to the feeble grinding sound it makes at time 1:40


More tests of Agilents:
https://www.youtube.com/@joesmith-je3tq/search?query=keysight

[Fungus]

8 years old is still a youngster in multimeter years.

I think that will depend on the quality of the product and its use.

OP said he used his Brymen "very carefully" once or twice a month. 

[Fungus]

For AC measurements I still think a $30 Aliexpress oscilloscope will give you more information than a multimeter, and across a much wider frequency range.

That's just me though.

(be sure to use a suitable probe for high-energy measurements)

[rsjsouza]

I would say Brymen is a notch below when compared to the Agilents and Flukes that I have in terms of quality of materials but it is still well above the average of the marketplace.

Agilents are flimsy, despite their price tag. Joe Smith's broken some just by turning the dial a few thousand times. Their transient survivability's below par, too.

No, they are flimsy in certain aspects. Take your Brymen to do what Dave did to the U1282A on the canyon and you can bet your bottom dollar it will be non-operational unless taken to the shop. My BM857 is a good meter but mechanically it has its severe flaws - the stand being the most critical of them.

[joeqsmith]

Flimsy in the parts that count, the selector switch mechanics.  The closest I come to Dave's videos in real life is I've dropped them from a few feet onto concrete.   I do however rotate the selector switches.  Both Agilent/Keysight meters had major failures early on in the life cycle testing.    The Brymen BM869s that I subjected to the 50,000 cycle life test is still in use today.

I offered to buy that U1282A from Dave as is for parts to repair mine after it was damaged during some low voltage transient testing.   It appeared all the custom ICs may have been alright.  Unlike even the cheap meters, Keysight doesn't have adequate protection for these parts, and good luck trying to source parts to repair one. 

***
Also, I was surprised that Keysight's lettering was so easily effected with my solvent test.  This is something I normally see with the bottom basement meters.

Showing 8000 cycles, plastic broke on the U1282A.  Starts with a nice click, then squeals, then all goes quite:

[joeqsmith]

I think that depends more on the "job" than the brand.  Consider the Fluke 289.  Say it offered features that I need for the job.  It currently costs $700.  But wait, UNI-T offers the UT181A knockoff, with a fancy color display and a few more features for less than half the price of the Fluke.    Maybe you would consider the Fluke a luxury.

I guess if you're a millionaire then a Mercedes-Benz S-Class is "just a car" (might as well get a nice one, right?)

The Majority of people wouldn't think that though.

If Uni-T were a car they'd be something like a TVR - fast and good looking, but will spend more time at the workshop than on the road.

Normally, if the manufacture claims the product meets IEC 61326, it will do well with my tests.   Dave's 121GW and the UT181A both make this claim and did poorly.  So it's not a sure bet.   If Fluke makes this claim, you can pretty much bet on it holding up.   

I am willing to spend more for a product that I know will survive some basic transients.  If it can handle some cycling of the switch, even better.   Maybe you consider these metrics a luxury. 

[joeqsmith]

I don't get how you can think Hioki is expensive but a $400 used Fluke is good value. They're both in the "luxury" class and not good bang per buck.

Consider that the Fluke 189 that was given to me by a friend who passed away was previously owned by a friend of his who had also passed away.  From the photo, you can see that meter wasn't treated like some lab princess.   Cost of ownership may actually be very good over the meters lifetime.   I would have no problem buying a brand new Fluke.  They just don't make any products that fit my use.

8 years old is still a youngster in multimeter years.

I think that will depend on the quality of the product and its use.

OP said he used his Brymen "very carefully" once or twice a month. 

Right.  I am suggesting that the Fluke I mentioned which is at least 20 years old now has not had an easy life sitting on a desk measuring batteries and 1k resistors. 

[Fungus]

No, they are flimsy in certain aspects. Take your Brymen to do what Dave did to the U1282A on the canyon and you can bet your bottom dollar it will be non-operational unless taken to the shop.

I don't need mine to be waterproof. OTOH I'd like to think I can turn the dial a couple of dozen times a day without it wearing out in six months.

My BM857 is a good meter but mechanically it has its severe flaws - the stand being the most critical of them.

Here's my hack for that: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/help-me-decide-fluke-87v-or-brymen-bm789/msg3505584/#msg3505584

(Don't laugh 'til you try it...)

[Fungus]

If Fluke makes this claim, you can pretty much bet on it holding up.   

Yep.

OTOH I think you can say that of Brymen, too. I don't recall a Brymen performing worse than a Fluke in any of your tests.

[KungFuJosh]

(Don't laugh 'til you try it...)

It's funny and effective. 😉

[rsjsouza]

Flimsy in the parts that count, the selector switch mechanics. 

Joe, I love your tests but they are not end all be all. They reveal serious design flaws on many meters, including the more fragile switch design of the Agilents when compared to others, as well as their higher susceptibility to transients. However, as you know well (and we talked about this in the past), there are other aspects apart from these that can help a user make a decision on one equipment over another - after all, the original question is if there is a more robust/reliable replacement to the OP's Brymen.

For work on the field (in several cases on wet/high humidity areas) I used to take my 27/FM due to its sheer robustness (and the dark colour that hid the dirt  ). After a U1282A was handed to me, it's IP67 rating (and Dave's tests) give me much more confidence in these harsh environments - this can be shown on the account of several folks that report issues with their measurements where a board cleanup brings the equipment back to life. I am also to see a transient kill a meter (apart from your tests, of course) - in my experience and other reports made to my channel, switching to a wrong range and leaving the meter there for several seconds until it "sparks" is a much more common occurrence, mostly due to fatigue of PTCs, clamping transistors or other aspects of an improper input design. Case in point: my UT61E can be left in ohms in a 120V~240V plugged, even with its flimsy tolerance to transients.

All this is not to say the Agilents are perfect meters or your tests are useless - I myself reported my concerns with an older U1233A that were proven in your tests, and value your exposure of issues on the U1282A. But my based opinion still stands: Brymens are built a notch lower than these two brands (and I hoped to have models from Sanwa and Hioki to evaluate them in comparison, but $$$ is of the essence).

[joeqsmith]

If Fluke makes this claim, you can pretty much bet on it holding up.   

Yep.

OTOH I think you can say that of Brymen, too. I don't recall a Brymen performing worse than a Fluke in any of your tests.

Does your idea of a luxury meter only come into play then when discussing Brymen vs Fluke?   

If you look at the data I have collected, you don't find too many brands that repeatably hold up to my tests.

[joeqsmith]

I don't think too many people consider my tests as some sort of end all.  At most, you get some unbiased data about how robust meters are when ran against some constant tests.  No feelings, opinions, stories, just raw data.  In cases where an end user may only be looking at their 555 timers or testing their old batteries in the drawer,  I doubt any of it matters.   Video below talks about stupid people with narrow views.  I think this applies to many things, even my testing.  It's not the gold standard.  If anything, it just scratches the surface and is highly focused in one area.

But my based opinion still stands: Brymens are built a notch lower than these two brands (and I hoped to have models from Sanwa and Hioki to evaluate them in comparison, but $$$ is of the essence).

Based on what metrics?

Chemicals,  Keysight was poor.
Function switch life cycle,  Keysight was really poor.
Low energy transient testing,  Keysight was poor. 

Maybe from an accuracy, precision, drift....   Show your data.   

If  I need something better than the BM869s,  I use my HP 34401A.   Handhelds have their place but are no match for even that old meter.   And when it comes to why I don't see much point in looking at other such metrics, as I have stated many times,  I basically just follow the specs in the data sheets. 

but $$$ is of the essence

Sadly, in the USA I suspect $$$ has become a major concern. 

[Fungus]

Does your idea of a luxury meter only come into play then when discussing Brymen vs Fluke?   

For "professional" meters I don't really discuss anything other than Brymen and Fluke after watching your tests.

If I win the lottery I might buy a Hioki out of curiosity but I don't see a reason to ever buy a Fluke 87V, personally.

If you look at the data I have collected, you don't find too many brands that repeatably hold up to my tests.

Only Fluke/Brymen/Hioki spring to mind. Maybe there was a Gossen, too, although the Gossen had other problems.

I don't recall seeing a Hioki or Gossen undergoing a switch lifecycle test.

I was surprised when you didn't zap the Keysight with your capacitor, I thought they'd be able to take 2kV. Even Anengs have survived that much.

[joeqsmith]

If I win the lottery I might buy a Hioki out of curiosity but I don't see a reason to ever buy a Fluke 87V, personally.

It looks like the HIOKI 4282 is only about $400 USD + tax.   Less than the 87V but a far more capable meter.   I almost bought one instead of the Brymen BM869s.  The Brymen had a few features I wanted that were not offered with the HIOKI.

If you look at the data I have collected, you don't find too many brands that repeatably hold up to my tests.

Only Fluke/Brymen/Hioki spring to mind. Maybe there was a Gossen, too, although the Gossen had other problems.

I don't recall seeing a Hioki or Gossen undergoing a switch lifecycle test.

I was surprised when you didn't zap the Keysight with your capacitor, I thought they'd be able to take 2kV. Even Anengs have survived that much.

That Gossen would kick some ass if the Germans would admit to themselves that the shielding was important.  Not only to prevent the electro-mechanical relay from changing states with the magnetic hanger, but to make it immune to your hand placement.  Branding it as Prime fixed nothing.  You are correct in that I have not life cycle it's, or the low cost HIOKI's selector switches.  Because of the length of the test, I've only looked at a few meters. 

The Keysight is a little princess and did not earn the right to be tested against that capacitor.  That test was reserved for the meters that survived the low voltage transient tests.  She looks nice on the lab bench measuring resistors and 9V batteries.   While I did stress Dave's 121GW (that had already failed), I said that I would not run the virgin 121GW for the same reason.

[rsjsouza]

I don't think too many people consider my tests as some sort of end all.

I suspect several do, since they touch the funny bone feeling of "revealing the true story behind the industry" (that would give a compelling video title). 

But my based opinion still stands: Brymens are built a notch lower than these two brands (and I hoped to have models from Sanwa and Hioki to evaluate them in comparison, but $$$ is of the essence).

Based on what metrics?

Naturally this is based on my experience with two meters from the "B" brand, three meters of the "A/K" brand and five or six of the "F" brand. My two Brymens had the following issues:
BM857: the flimsy kickstand broke shortly after purchasing and, after Brymen sent me a replacement kickstand, I treated it like a princess. Several years later, it broke again to my dismay. The manufacturer provided no cushion for its battery, rattling when installed. The external rubber boot had several finishing issues, including uneven discoloration.
BM251 (Greenlee DM-200A) - came with off-centered jacks that cause some probes to be difficult to insert. The rubber boot stilll has finishing issues and the kickstand is still quite flimsy, although now tied to the rubber boot. The rotary switch is quite stiff but can, at times, be lodged between ranges. But it feels more robust and better built than the BM857.

Some will say these are unimportant and prove nothing since they are anecdoctal and are easily fixable, etc. Can't say anything outside of my experience with my two units, but they reveal a lesser quality control when compared to the other two brands and, in my case, reveal a lack of robustness.

But overall they are excellent meters in their own merit and I use them extensively, just like my other "A/K" and "F" meters.

(edit) fixed bad /quote directive

[Fungus]

BM857: the flimsy kickstand broke shortly after purchasing and, after Brymen sent me a replacement kickstand, I treated it like a princess. Several years later, it broke again to my dismay.

I confess I don't use the stand much.

The logical next step for bench use (after the "string" mod) would be to 3D print a support for it.

(or laser cut  )

[joeqsmith]

I don't think too many people consider my tests as some sort of end all.

I suspect several do, since they touch the funny bone feeling of "revealing the true story behind the industry" (that would give a compelling video title). 

But my based opinion still stands: Brymens are built a notch lower than these two brands (and I hoped to have models from Sanwa and Hioki to evaluate them in comparison, but $$$ is of the essence).

Based on what metrics?

Naturally this is based on my experience with two meters from the "B" brand, three meters of the "A/K" brand and five or six of the "F" brand. My two Brymens had the following issues:
BM857: the flimsy kickstand broke shortly after purchasing and, after Brymen sent me a replacement kickstand, I treated it like a princess. Several years later, it broke again to my dismay. The manufacturer provided no cushion for its battery, rattling when installed. The external rubber boot had several finishing issues, including uneven discoloration.
BM251 (Greenlee DM-200A) - came with off-centered jacks that cause some probes to be difficult to insert. The rubber boot stilll has finishing issues and the kickstand is still quite flimsy, although now tied to the rubber boot. The rotary switch is quite stiff but can, at times, be lodged between ranges. But it feels more robust and better built than the BM857.

Some will say these are unimportant and prove nothing since they are anecdoctal and are easily fixable, etc. Can't say anything outside of my experience with my two units, but they reveal a lesser quality control when compared to the other two brands and, in my case, reveal a lack of robustness.

But overall they are excellent meters in their own merit and I use them extensively, just like my other "A/K" and "F" meters.

I had bought a new Fluke (87V) for testing and the rubber boot also had uneven discoloration.   It didn't seem to effect the poor switch design (that meter didn't hold up so well in the life cycle testing).   I've seen some alignment problems with the connectors before as well.   Agree, these problems point to a problem with their quality control.   

In the case of the two Agilent / Keysight meters I looked at, forget the poor input protection, the fact their function switches were damaged in so few rotations points to a design problem.    Like Gossen not providing adequate shielding, its a design problem. 

[AVGresponding]

It would be interesting (but probably too depressing) to learn what, if any, pressure has been exerted by the parent corporation upon Fluke to cut overhead/increase margin. Especially when you consider the ROI on the 87V must be an investors wet dream, by now.

One thing I wish they'd rewind is the boot shape; on the 87, it's flat at the bottom and stable, but the 87V is curved and wobbles   
I sometimes think about swapping the boots over, during moments of extreme annoyance

[bdunham7]

It would be interesting (but probably too depressing) to learn what, if any, pressure has been exerted by the parent corporation upon Fluke to cut overhead/increase margin. Especially when you consider the ROI on the 87V must be an investors wet dream, by now.

It's probably harder than you think to simply maintain production of a legacy product, let alone thrift its input BOM.  Perhaps producing some of the parts in China would help but on a product like the 87V you can't alter it perceptibly because your customers would notice, especially those that have many units and can do side-by-side comparisons.  Design revisions to fix bugs or adapt to newer parts have to be either transparent or slight improvements that do not alter function or procedures in anyway. 

[rsjsouza]

BM857: the flimsy kickstand broke shortly after purchasing and, after Brymen sent me a replacement kickstand, I treated it like a princess. Several years later, it broke again to my dismay.

I confess I don't use the stand much.

The logical next step for bench use (after the "string" mod) would be to 3D print a support for it.

(or laser cut  )

Not on the Brymen or a 3D printed stand, but on my HV transistor tester gizmo I used an advanced ninja-folding technique on a carefully chosen piece of 14 AWG solid copper wire to keep it at the exact angle of 46.8° 

 

[Fungus]

I used an advanced ninja-folding technique on a carefully chosen piece of 14 AWG solid copper wire to keep it at the exact angle of 46.8° 

Excellent! It perfectly blends into the workplace, you wouldn't even see if if you walked past.