EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
Products => Test Equipment => Topic started by: Nuno_pt on October 08, 2014, 08:47:46 am
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Hi all,
I'm looking at some advice to buy an new frequency counter for my Ham radio lab, I'm looking for something like the Anritsu MF76A, that would give me the same number of digits with 1MHz or 70MHz or 3GHz.
I've been looking at the EIP but they seem to read from right to left, when the frequency increase the digits increase on the left side.
I know that the HP 53181 has an resolution of 0.01Hz, but the MF76A has 0.001Hz of resolution.
It would be nice to count with 10 / 12 digits from KHz to GHz.
What are my options?
Any suggestions?
Nuno
CT2IRY
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I've been looking at the EIP but they seem to read from right to left, when the frequency increase the digits increase on the left side.
Can you explain this? Obviously they don't read backward, so what are you saying?
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Hi edavid,
What I mean is they read like this:
1MHZ - xxxx1000000
10MHz - xxx10000000
100MHz - xx100000000
1GHz - x1000000000
10GHz - 10000000000
Where xxxx is digits not lighted.
But the HP53181 read:
10MHz - 1000000000
The MF76A read:
10MHz - 10000000000
I think it as to do with the resolution, the EIP it's 1Hz resolution, the HP 53181 it's 0.01Hz resolution, and MF76A it's 0.001Hz.
That's what I mean by reading from right to left.
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I have the AIM-TTI INSTRUMENTS - TF930 which measures from less than 1Hz to 3GHz (which may be a little low for you?) It cost me around £200 for an ex-demo.
The number of digits is determined by the gate time (which you set) rather than the frequency. (Note that for higher frequencies it uses port B which has a higher minimum frequency so you can't measure from 1Hz to 3GHz on the same port but most counters have that limitation.)
The display can be hard to read as it isn't backlit but it is a nice light unit that is battery backed so can be used away from a supply or powered by USB. It might be worth you taking a look.
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I've been looking at the EIP but they seem to read from right to left, when the frequency increase the digits increase on the left side.
Can you explain this? Obviously they don't read backward, so what are you saying?
I have a EIP 25B that I bough new recently include a power meter and 12 digits.
It display only frequency that make sense, what do you expect in the not used digits 0 on the left :palm: or zero on the right :palm:
It adapt the resolution to the band (3 frequency band available up to 20Ghz)
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I've look at the TF930 but to read with the 10 digits you've to put the gate to 100s, not very fast.
Europol, if you feed 1MHz signal how many digits it show, 10MHz, 100MHz, 1GHz, 10GHz, it reads all the signals with the 12 digits or with the increase of the frequency the digits increase?
*** I friend of mine as an MF76A and it reads 10MH with 11 digits, 0.001Hz resolution, and is HP 53181 reads the same signal with 10 digits, 0.01Hz resolution, for you the last digits may not count but at 1GHz and above the last digits, like you say the zeros, are of value, on 10GHz 1Hz can make you lose the contact station.***
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I've look at the TF930 but to read with the 10 digits you've to put the gate to 100s, not very fast.
Europol, if you feed 1MHz signal how many digits it show, 10MHz, 100MHz, 1GHz, 10GHz, it reads all the signals with the 12 digits or with the increase of the frequency the digits increase?
It is a different on the EIP, you just select the band and eventually the resolution.
I agree that in other usually more simple frequency meters you change the gate, I have a Chinese one that cost 60 Euros and work this ways by changing the gate time.
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1Mhz display 1 000 000
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eurofox,
From what I can see on the EIP you choose the band that you are testing the signal, and that band give you an pre establish resolution, will on the others they start to read with all the digits no matter what signal you input.
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I've look at the TF930 but to read with the 10 digits you've to put the gate to 100s, not very fast.
Yes, it is not very sophisticated in that it doesn't use interpolation like more expensive counters. It is a reciprocal counter but the digits are determined by its internal frequency of 50MHz.
Interpolating counters are much faster but then ones like the Agilent series cost ten times as much or more.
If your budget is more, there are a couple of counters on Agilent's (now Keysight's ) ebay store which they will probably take offers on as they've been there quite a while:
http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Keysight/Counters-/_i.html?_fsub=4200326011&_sid=869664151&_trksid=p4634.m322 (http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Keysight/Counters-/_i.html?_fsub=4200326011&_sid=869664151&_trksid=p4634.m322)
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eurofox,
From what I can see on the EIP you choose the band that you are testing the signal, and that band give you an pre establish resolution, will on the others they start to read with all the digits no matter what signal you input.
Yes it work this way.
I got an Agilent before but was limited to 3GHz, the 20Ghz is very expensive as well second hand.
The one on Keysight ebay look interesting to 12Ghz and usually you can discuss the price with them.
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1Mhz display 1 000 000
That's what I was talking about, 1MHz 7 digits, the 5 digits on the left side are not lighted, if you feed 10MHz it will read 10 000 000, and the 4 digits on the left will not light, but the HP and MF76A show 10MHz as 10 000 000 00 and 10 000 000 000, that's the difference.
If you've one oscillator on 70 000 000MHz, and you try to tune it it's better to tune it with one witch reads the oscillator with 9, 10, 11 or 12 digits, the same for other frequency.
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If you want fractions of Hertz I think that you are better served with the Agilent/Feysight.
You can have decimal but accuracy will depend of the stability of the reference frequency, you can take one with High stability oscillator.
You can tune the example you give 70 000 000 Mhz with a oscilloscope and a generator tuned and 70 000 000 Mhz as well.
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Hi edavid,
What I mean is they read like this:
1MHZ - xxxx1000000
10MHz - xxx10000000
100MHz - xx100000000
1GHz - x1000000000
10GHz - 10000000000
Where xxxx is digits not lighted.
But the HP53181 read:
10MHz - 1000000000
The MF76A read:
10MHz - 10000000000
I think it as to do with the resolution, the EIP it's 1Hz resolution, the HP 53181 it's 0.01Hz resolution, and MF76A it's 0.001Hz.
That's what I mean by reading from right to left.
OK, no wonder I didn't understand. It has nothing to do with right or left, it is just the resolution. If you have the space, you can save a lot of money by getting a separate high resolution reciprocal counter and microwave counter.
BTW, the trouble with Anritsu equipment is that it is usually hard to find a service manual - check that out before you buy.
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A good all round compromise (for your needs) could be the old Anritsu MF1603A. This is a reciprocal counter but it also works up to 3GHz.
eg the input range is 0.1mHz to 3GHz in two ranges (A and B inputs)
I have one here and it's a nice counter with a big and easy to read display and it also has the GPIB and HS3 OCXO options fitted. The prices for these vary a lot and you can easily pay $1600 for one from a TE dealer but sometimes they can be bought very cheaply on ebay. eg sub $100.
It's not as fast as the latest gen of counters from HP/Agilent/KS or Tek but it can refresh at 10 digits per second and it does have a big and bright display that can be read at a long distance.
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G0HZU,
An EIP 545A, 578A, 25B, for 10GHz and above it's ok, it counts with 11 or 12 that's ok for working on EME stuff, but for HF radios, to set the reference oscillator and the others, they are all 8 digits, so you need a better counter with 9/10 digits to 900MHz so you can set them correctly.
This week was sold an MF76A for 360€, I get there to late >:D.
Maybe the solution would be HP 53181 and EIP 545A, or wait for some nice deal.
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The MF1603A will do 0.001Hz resolution at 10MHz at a 10 second gate time although I don't really need this level of performance.
In 1 second it can resolve to 0.01Hz at 10MHz and that is quite powerful.
So it is a realistic (usually cheaper) alternative to the HP53181. I bought my Anritsu MF1603A for £65 :)
I'm not sure how much value there is to be had from measuring frequencies very accurately at 10GHz on a counter because any decent/modern system will be referenced to a decent OCXO at 10MHz or maybe 30MHz that can be measured on something like the Anritsu counter.
So to me at least the 18GHz EIP (source locking) counters are a bit of a dinosaur. I can remember using them to lock up signal sources (eg a sweeper) to get a very accurate and stable source at maybe 10GHz but that is oldschool and dead tech nowadays.
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I've look at the TF930 but to read with the 10 digits you've to put the gate to 100s, not very fast.
I realise this topic is probably dead by now - but in fairness to TTi I thought I'd add the fact that as the measurement on the TF930 is continuous, once you've waited the initial 100 seconds it will update much more frequently giving the value for the last 100 seconds each time. (And of course you'll have updates at lower resolution during the initial 100 seconds.)
OK still slow, but at least you don't have to wait 100 seconds between new readings which would be really tedious!
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The MF1603A will do 0.001Hz resolution at 10MHz at a 10 second gate time although I don't really need this level of performance.
In 1 second it can resolve to 0.01Hz at 10MHz and that is quite powerful.
So it is a realistic (usually cheaper) alternative to the HP53181. I bought my Anritsu MF1603A for £65 :)
I'm not sure how much value there is to be had from measuring frequencies very accurately at 10GHz on a counter because any decent/modern system will be referenced to a decent OCXO at 10MHz or maybe 30MHz that can be measured on something like the Anritsu counter.
So to me at least the 18GHz EIP (source locking) counters are a bit of a dinosaur. I can remember using them to lock up signal sources (eg a sweeper) to get a very accurate and stable source at maybe 10GHz but that is oldschool and dead tech nowadays.
Was wondering if you ever found the user and service manual, i am looking for it for day, that would realy help me, thank you