Advice on next scope

[tonybarry]

Hi Guys / Girls,

I have an ageing Fluke PM3394A 4 channel scope which has just died.  Sad to see it go.

I am looking at a newer box to replace it.  And I would like your thoughts on usability and user interface if you would care to comment.  I have watched several videos on scopes that have been posted here, and they have been food for thought.

My needs are perhaps not the usual service tech stuff.  I work with low voltage (2mVp-p) signals of very limited bandwidth (<10kHz) in one area of work, and microcontrollers (< 20MHz clocks) in another area.  I would like serial (RS232) decode and SPI and CAN bus (haven't used CAN but it seems to be getting talked about around the traps).  I already have a Salaea logic analyser which is good enough for most decodes.  I have gotten used to 4 channels and do not want to return to two.

So I have two scopes in my sights -
the Rigol DS1074Z-S with serial trig, decode, and waveform record (about $1100 if I figure it right)
the Rigol DS4074 (about $3500)

While I can afford the 4000 series device, it is a real funding hit.  It has everything I want, including a Y amplitude knob for each channel.  It has more bandwidth than I think I would use, and more than enough waveforms per sec.  It does serial decode and trig and signal record.

The DS1074Z-S is much lower cost.  With the specs outlined above it will do what I want.  But does it have a good enough interface to get by ?

Your opinion on usability would be appreciated.  Does that channel selector series of buttons make it too hard to use ?  Are there other things about the scope that make it hard to work with ? 

Regards,
Tony Barry

[kripton2035]

sorry to hear that but how did the pm3394 die ?
(I have the same ..)
regards,

[tonybarry]

Hi kripton,

The PM finally died with frame collapse.  It had lost one rotary encoder (on delay) some time before and the timebase and Y amps were not well calibrated any more, but info on the scope and parts especially were just not available.

When it went down, I briefly considered trying to repair.  But the cost of repair and the chances of parts meant that a new scope was a much better option.  Since I do not do my own cals, a scope that is still in service life is much better.

Regards,
Tony Barry

[kripton2035]

I saw sometimes dead fluke combiscopes on ebay, may be you can get the parts you need ?
then in fact if you are resolved to change the scope that's not the way !
good luck.

[cosmos]

Assuming you are talking about the DS4014 (no DS4074 from Rigol that I know of)  where do you have to pay 3500USD for it?
They seem to go for around 2400-2600USD mark with free shipping in EU/US and you could get discounts on that.

[nctnico]

Also consider buying a second hand Tektronix (TDS3000 series) or Agilent. There are enough for sale on Ebay.

[tonybarry]

Hi cosmos,

Yes you are right it is the DS4014.

The local distributor (Emona) has the DS4014 for $2638 inc GST, and the SPI / CAN / RS232 / I2C decode for $1318.  A bit over $3900.

TEquipment sells for similar price.  Cheaper on the scope ($2398 US) and more expensive for serial decode ($1500 US).

I would prefer to deal with the local distributor.

Regards,
Tony Barry

[cosmos]

You realize DS4000 series is hacked and you can can get the options for free? (if that fits you)
Also the DS4014 HW is capable of becoming a DS4054 if someone just figure out the way to do that too, the hack worked for bandwidth in the DS2000 but so far not on the DS4000.

[grego]

You realize DS4000 series is hacked and you can can get the options for free? (if that fits you)
Also the DS4014 HW is capable of becoming a DS4054 if someone just figure out the way to do that too, the hack worked for bandwidth in the DS2000 but so far not on the DS4000.

I don't think it's been confirmed that the DS4014 is hardware capable of becoming a 4054 yet.  Its in the "we think maybe but aren't sure" category.

[cosmos]

I don't think it's been confirmed that the DS4014 is hardware capable of becoming a 4054 yet.  Its in the "we think maybe but aren't sure" category.

OK, I agree it is not confirmed...

One guy on the forum (long ago, not seen since) claimed that his DS4014 decided it would like to be a DS4054 and he also claimed it measured as a DS4054 BW wise.

The ADC and back-end should 99% sure be the same, ADC looks like an ASIC with Rigol markings and I find it hard to believe they have sub classes of those (besides the part number matched 100% AFAIR)
The front-end also uses a Rigol marked circuit, same marking thing goes for that too.
In between the ADC and the front-end device they have the same programmable BW amplifier they used on the DS2000 and it can go to 1GHz.
Would they really make the DS2000 BW selection in a different way than the DS4000 that preceded it?

All circumstantial or unconfirmed so far but it sure looks promising...  at least to me, enough that I have a DS4014 on the way.

[larry42]

I have a Hameg (Rohde & Schwarz) HMO1524 - they regularly run promos with the UART/SPI/I2C/CAN/LIN bus decode options included free, if not then it's probably worth asking. The HMO724 (1mV/div up to 20MHz full 5mV/div BW 70MHz) should be in that ball-park.

The low-noise performance of my HMO1524 has been very impressive, as have the FFT capabilities (unlike the older Agilent scopes, the FFT mode on the Hamegs is much more user-friendly and has up to 64k point FFT). Very small and light, and (acoustic) noise free - only issues are slightly slow waveforms/s (not an issue for me) and relatively higher price than the Rigol. On the otherhand, I trust the Hameg brand more, than I did Rigol, having used their awful rebadged Agilent DSO3102*

In short the only scopes I would consider for purchase *now* in the 1k-3k range are the Hameg, Rigol 2000 series and Agilent DSOX2000 and 3000 series.


*not to be confused with the DSO-X 3xxx series which are very good and not OEM'ed Rigols

[tonybarry]

Well, I had a visit from the Emona rep yesterday.  He had a Rigol DS-1074Z-S in his bag, along with a DSO4014.

Very interesting. 

I was surprised at how small the 1000Z was.  Seemed to do most things and do them with a minimum of button pushing.  I liked the interface, despite only having one vertical knob for four channels.  Not sure how the unit would go in the heat of battle - it takes time to become comfortable with an interface and there were a lot of options. 

The screen was quite exquisite.  Good if you have good eyes.  The screen real estate was a bit clobbered by the menus that don't go away.  So the 7 inch screen was really more like a six inch screen.

The channel selection schema did not prove to be annoying, which was one thing I was concerned about.  In fact, not noticeable. 

The signal generator inbuilt was OK, and useful if you had a need that did not require the flexibility of a standalone unit, but after thinking about it I would probably still opt for something external (a separate box).  Not a criticism of the unit, Rigol did a pretty amazing job considering the price point.

I would need to work with the device for some time to get slick with it - some signals are easier to grab than others and it's those ugly buggers that tend to sort out average scopes from great scopes.

The DS4014 was a much nicer device to work with.  Obviously a bigger price tag too.  The scope is quite big.  It's not a small item at all, and required its own bag.  I did not see a front cover for the device, although Connor Wolf did a review here where he mentioned that Rigol supply one. I think this is one essential for this scope - it's big enough to need protection on its front panel.

The screen was bigger, easier to read, and could be slaved to an external monitor as well.  I like the inbuilt screen !

The menus seemed to be fairly responsive, more so than reviews of other Rigol scopes I saw.

I was pretty happy with the performance, although I did not spend much time pushing the buttons.  As always, there is no substitute for experience. 

Stuff I liked ... the 50 ohm termination option.  The nice FFT.  The Hi-res (12 bit) mode for slow signals (uses inline averaging to get the extra bits).   The serial decode is quite nice.  It does translate fairly well.

I did not get much of a feel for the triggering.  It seemed to be powerful but I could not decide how it would go in battle.  Other people have reviewed the DS4074 and have commented on this more than I can.  The serial trig could be very powerful, and it may be that the unit can do USB decode as well, which would be awesome for peripheral work (although I have tried pretty hard to stay away from such stuff).

Now the kicker.  The Emona rep mentioned that the DS4000 series now have a MSO4074 model - all the DS4000 goodness + 16 channel logic analyser. 

The cost is about $1300 over the top of the DS - so it's hitting the roof for my budget.  I do not know if the MSO bit is what I want - it could be a horrible clutter on screen, or it could be a really helpful tool.  I have always used PC based logic analysers up till now, and they are different beasts.

There is one MSO 4014 in Aus right now, and I may be able to get a play with it next week, all going well.

Lead time for the scopes is about 3-4 weeks. So I will be waiting for a bit to get whichever one seems right.  I will post again when I have had a look at the MSO.

Thanks to all who have replied to the post.

Regards,
Tony Barry

[EEVblog]

I would consider the Rigol DS2000. It has a larger screen than the 1000Z, with 14 divisions instead of 12, and it has a nice 500uV/DIV range for low level signal work. Few scopes on the market can match that low level range. Only a few hundred more than the 1000Z.

[EEVblog]

Does that channel selector series of buttons make it too hard to use ?

It can be a bit annoying. You'll eventually find yourself turning the knob for CH1 when you really wanted CH2. But not a bad price to pay for the compact size and 4 channel for that very low price. I wouldn't let that drive my decision.

[tonybarry]

Thank you Dave for your comments.

Yes the DS2000 series is very attractive with the 500 uV range.  However 4 channels is very nice for me and I would not wish to let that go.  I have used 4 chan more than I thought I would, and my previous scope was 5mV range if I recall correctly.  It would not deliver ECG voltages which was a real pity, whereas the MSO4000 should deliver such signals with 12 bit turned on.

I also liked the DS1000Z-S with the inbuilt sig-gen.  But I don't know how much I'd use the sig-gen. 

I realise that tossing up between the DS1074Z and the MSO4014 is really not comparing two similar spec machines.  Of course the MSO is going to be nicer - about five times nicer and five times more costly.  I think for me the big thing was being able to read the 4000 screen without trouble, and that is surely an odd reason to fork out such a truckload of cash.  In this case, I think the rationale I am using is that I would like to get just one scope before I retire, and this one might be it.  So I will spring for the best I can do, and hope that it is not subject to too much future shock between now and 2150 when I can afford to retire :-)

Regards,
Tony Barry

[soren]

Maybe get a DS1000 (4 channels) *and* a DS2000 (faster and bigger screen)?

Still significantly cheaper together than a DS4000.

[darrylp]

Maybe get a DS1000 (4 channels) *and* a DS2000 (faster and bigger screen)?

Still significantly cheaper together than a DS4000.

+1 the ds2000 has a trigger out, so you could link the two and watch 6 channels :-)

--
 Darryl

[grego]

The MSO4000 is probably the direction you'll want to go if you want 4 channels and digital is an added bonus.  This assumes it doesn't break your budget though - from what I'm hearing (and this is hearsay mind you) it's about a $1300 delta for the MSO option based on Chinese pricing (so who knows what it'll be here in the states).  If you work with that number you're looking at about ~$3600-$3700 for a MSO4014 100Mhz 4 channel with 16 digital channels.

Personally I think $1300 is high since they will have separate pricing for the decodes - I'd expect it to be more in the $600-$1000 range but even then it's >$3000 USD.

Maybe Rigol will surprise us - I don't know - we aren't supposed to get the silly thing here in the states until the middle of the 4th quarter at best from what tequipment has said previously so we still have another 6 weeks or so before we get more details.

It's killing me personally.

[Electro Fan]

Well, I had a visit from the Emona rep yesterday.  He had a Rigol DS-1074Z-S in his bag, along with a DSO4014.

Very interesting. 

I was surprised at how small the 1000Z was.  Seemed to do most things and do them with a minimum of button pushing.  I liked the interface, despite only having one vertical knob for four channels.  Not sure how the unit would go in the heat of battle - it takes time to become comfortable with an interface and there were a lot of options. 

The screen was quite exquisite.  Good if you have good eyes.  The screen real estate was a bit clobbered by the menus that don't go away.  So the 7 inch screen was really more like a six inch screen.

The channel selection schema did not prove to be annoying, which was one thing I was concerned about.  In fact, not noticeable. 

The signal generator inbuilt was OK, and useful if you had a need that did not require the flexibility of a standalone unit, but after thinking about it I would probably still opt for something external (a separate box).  Not a criticism of the unit, Rigol did a pretty amazing job considering the price point.

I would need to work with the device for some time to get slick with it - some signals are easier to grab than others and it's those ugly buggers that tend to sort out average scopes from great scopes.

The DS4014 was a much nicer device to work with.  Obviously a bigger price tag too.  The scope is quite big.  It's not a small item at all, and required its own bag.  I did not see a front cover for the device, although Connor Wolf did a review here where he mentioned that Rigol supply one. I think this is one essential for this scope - it's big enough to need protection on its front panel.

The screen was bigger, easier to read, and could be slaved to an external monitor as well.  I like the inbuilt screen !

The menus seemed to be fairly responsive, more so than reviews of other Rigol scopes I saw.

I was pretty happy with the performance, although I did not spend much time pushing the buttons.  As always, there is no substitute for experience. 

Stuff I liked ... the 50 ohm termination option.  The nice FFT.  The Hi-res (12 bit) mode for slow signals (uses inline averaging to get the extra bits).   The serial decode is quite nice.  It does translate fairly well.

I did not get much of a feel for the triggering.  It seemed to be powerful but I could not decide how it would go in battle.  Other people have reviewed the DS4074 and have commented on this more than I can.  The serial trig could be very powerful, and it may be that the unit can do USB decode as well, which would be awesome for peripheral work (although I have tried pretty hard to stay away from such stuff).

Now the kicker.  The Emona rep mentioned that the DS4000 series now have a MSO4074 model - all the DS4000 goodness + 16 channel logic analyser. 

The cost is about $1300 over the top of the DS - so it's hitting the roof for my budget.  I do not know if the MSO bit is what I want - it could be a horrible clutter on screen, or it could be a really helpful tool.  I have always used PC based logic analysers up till now, and they are different beasts.

There is one MSO 4014 in Aus right now, and I may be able to get a play with it next week, all going well.

Lead time for the scopes is about 3-4 weeks. So I will be waiting for a bit to get whichever one seems right.  I will post again when I have had a look at the MSO.

Thanks to all who have replied to the post.

Regards,
Tony Barry

Thanks for the report - please let us know if you get a further look at any of the products.

Seems like Rigol is freezing the market (maybe intentionally but probably accidentally) with announcements but limited/later shipments.

Without more product info and user feedback it is difficult to make a well informed decision.

Depending on your needs and wants it can be pretty hard to decide between the new 1000Z series, the 2000 series, and the 4000 series.  As you go higher up the chain the Agilent 2000 deserves a look and if you get to the top of the chain the Agilent 3000 can start calling your name 

Somewhat depends on number of channels needed and whether MSO capability is important.

- Anyone know if Rigol 4000s (either old ones or new ones) will be upgradeable so that the MSO functionality can be added later?

[Smokey]

Maybe get a DS1000 (4 channels) *and* a DS2000 (faster and bigger screen)?

Still significantly cheaper together than a DS4000.

This is actually a really good idea. 
Does anyone know if Rigol PC software is able to accept traces from multiple synced scopes and display them all on the same PC screen like Agilent can? 

[grego]

- Anyone know if Rigol 4000s (either old ones or new ones) will be upgradeable so that the MSO functionality can be added later?

No - it's not something you can add later.  It's got different hardware on the motherboard (as indicated by the front connector for the logic pods).

[EEVblog]

Maybe get a DS1000 (4 channels) *and* a DS2000 (faster and bigger screen)?
Still significantly cheaper together than a DS4000.

Yep, good point.
And you get a 6 channel scope!

[tonybarry]

I had a brief opportunity to look at the MSO 4014 yesterday, at Emona's showroom in Sydney.  I was interested in the digital part of the system, because I have never used a logic analyser inside a scope before (always had the PC versions).  I was keen to find out how the scope integrated the two functions (DSO and LA) and how the interface handled the extra channels.

As you would expect, screen real estate is very precious when you suddenly go from 4 to 20 effective channels, and I am pleased to say the Rigol implementation was quite effective. 

Initially I did *not* like the size of the digital waveforms, and the fact that they were only available in "Small, Medium, or Big" amplitudes (and as far as I know the sizes of each are fixed).  Small is about 3mm vertical excursion, Medium is about 5mm, and Big is maybe 7 or 8mm.  The interchannel spacing is also very tight, especially in Small.  But with some experimenting around, I came to the conclusion that I could get quite used to it, and Rigol have a "Grouping" system where the user can group say 6 digital channels into one set so the size gets slightly bigger than if there were a bunch of 8 or 16 channels on screen all the time.

The scope does not make much distinction between an analog and a digital channel in terms of triggering.  I did not have much time to play with this aspect, but it did seem that you could trigger from just about anything, from a simple edge to a word pattern and it is all time-synced quite nicely.

A video review of an earlier Rigol scope (the DS1000D if I recall correctly) mentioned that the 1000D had some issues with time sync between analog and digital channels, and quite a lot of jitter in the digital timebase (+/- 10 ns) ... I was able to check this in the MSO4014 and found the issue was not present.  As far as I could tell, using a high bandwidth probe and the digital channels, there is less than 4 nsec differential between the scope analog rise and the digital rise (and my setup was not rigorous by any means).

The digital probe pod assembly was an OK system, the fly leads and syringe hooks were nothing to sing about but they looked serviceable.  The Emona rep agreed that they had a lifespan, which I think is about par for the course. I am used to scope probes lasting for years, including the syringe fixture, so the idea that these little fellas will go to be with Jesus sooner rather than later is a bit sad.

The cost for the MSO 4014 with the serial decode for CAN / SPI / etc is $5318 inclusive of GST.  This is at the upper end of the budget for me.  I have ordered one unit and it should be here in Australia in about a month.  I will write again when I have more to say about the device, after a few days of seeing what it can do and how easy it is to make it do stuff.

Thanks to those who have commented.  The idea of having two scopes slaved together with a trig out is intriguing, and I don't know how that would all work in practice - would it be too much trouble ? or a lifesaver ?  I think that I have had an occasion when I was doing digital work where I needed ten traces, and I only had eight at the time ... and at that time I would have gladly done such a workaround.  But on a day to day basis, I would prefer one box that keeps the clutter to a minimum.

Regards,
Tony Barry

[kripton2035]

can someone please check by a real distributor ?
is the mso4xxx delivered with the software decoding or not ?
on the web site there are NO software or accessories for the serial decoding options
and they are mentionned for the DS4000 series
it is not clear at least for me. thanks.

[grego]

I ordered one as well - should be here in about a month (US).

As for the decodes, I did send a query to tequipment as well to get a final answer.  It doesn't affect my decision for multiple reasons but just to gain clarity I have asked if they are part of the $1300 price delta or not over the DS equivalent versions.

[kripton2035]

I asked the french retailer, he told me the options are not included but I suppose they don't know because they don't have a real product in hands... so when you receive your "blank" mso4000 I would be glad to know if you have any serial decode inside ! thanks.

[grego]

I checked with Tequipment - decodes are NOT included - you use the same part #s as for the DS4000 series to order decodes.

[tonybarry]

Hi Kripton,

I wanted the serial decode in the MSO4014.  And had to pay for it.

Regards,
Tony Barry