Affordable 4Channel MSO ?

[Trax]

Hi,

I'm looking for a 4 Channels Oscilloscope with a Logic analyzer >= 16 Inputs would be good.

I would hope for a price below 500€ incl. tax. and a reseller inside the EU.

I was looking on some Regol models but found only prices above 600€

And advice would be greatly appreciated.

[nixfu]

Rigol MSO1074z is the best available for the money in your range.

[nctnico]

I'd think again about the requirement for 16 logic channels. 8 channels is more than enough to make an oscilloscope screen crowded. A seperate logic analyser would make more sense.

[Howardlong]

Rigol MSO1074z is the best available for the money in your range.

Agreed, I don't know of any other MSOs with 4 analogue channels at that end of the market.

After a good deal of investigation myself a month or so ago, with similar requirements to yourself, I purchased the MSO1074Z-S and for the money I'm very happy with it. The -S has the two channel arb, which is handy to have. I was looking for a reasonably priced scope for field use, although I've found I do use its arb quite a bit in the lab.

[Trax]

Well I guess 8 logic inputs would also be enough if that would be considerably cheaper.

4 Scope channels are a must I have a dual channel DSO currently and 2 is not enough for me, what I would like would be an extra trigger in, in addition to the 4 channels but only scopes with that I saw ware really expensive....


Where would be a cheep source for a MSO1074z I goggled a little bit around for that model and I see quite a big price spread, so I guess there must also be cheaper offerings than what I've seen (640€) i just need to know where they are.


Also how hackable is the MSO1074z ?


An other option would indeed be a DS1054Z for 300€ + a logic analyzer for up to 340€ that may not be a stupid idea indeed.
I would guess for far below 300€ one could get a PC based protocol analyzer that would be btter than a stndaloen device anyways as one can than process/decode the data with an own application, assuming the driver provides a publicly documented API.

[nixfu]

Check http://tequipment.net for the price.     Eevblog members also get a 6% discount, as, someone for the discount code.

And yes the 1074z is totally hackable, search the forum.   

[Richard Crowley]

Saleae has a new range of digital + analog products which may meet the OP's requirements.
https://www.saleae.com/

[echen1024]

What about a DS1054Z and a Saleae Logic product?

[Howardlong]

And yes the 1074z is totally hackable, search the forum.

The MSO1074Z doesn't yet have the generally available hacks that the DS1074Z has due to the different way the keys work.

[Trax]

a MSO1074Z + Saleae16 -> 300€ + 400€ = 700€ 

Saleae16 looks to expensive for me 400€ for a PC based logic analyzer is in my opinion a factor of 2 to expensive.

I have a china clone of one of their earlier models 8 digital channels only it cosed 12€ while iirc the original was priced at 100 or 200$
now the new models including the smaller once are not longer that simple build but given the experience I assume they still make too much profit on each unit.


http://tequipment.net is US based I need something EU based, also their price as its in the US stated without tax is higher than the EU price already including tax (http://www.rekirsch.at/Rigol+MSO1000Z,i5.htm) so a 6% discount still would result in a higher price and that don't even take into account shipment...


I know that given the typical prices of such hardware my complaints may sound like wining over nothing, but for a student 500€ is a cr4p10ad or money, and to know that this devices don't cost in the manufacturer nearly as much as their retail price just makes it worst. 

[Richard Crowley]

Note that the new range of Saleae devices do BOTH analog AND digital, so you could argue that you don't ALSO need an oscilloscope. Depending on what you are measuring, of course.  If you have a very limited budget, you must expect to live within your means.

[Monkeh]

have a china clone of one of their earlier models 8 digital channels only it cosed 12€ while iirc the original was priced at 100 or 200$

And I'm guessing you go right ahead and use the software they developed, which is what they're really charging for, and you didn't pay for? Thought so.

[pickle9000]

have a china clone of one of their earlier models 8 digital channels only it cosed 12€ while iirc the original was priced at 100 or 200$

And I'm guessing you go right ahead and use the software they developed, which is what they're really charging for, and you didn't pay for? Thought so.

I have one of the 20 buck Saleae clones. This works on it and is nice and legal.

http://sigrok.org/

Not perfect, but if you have a clone give it a go.

[Trax]

Talking about the new Saleae units, the Saleae 16 Pro says:
Sample Rate (max): 500MS/s
Fastest Digital Signal: 100MHz
what does that mean? I would expect the two being the same number... they might be oversampling but is it needed to do that with a factor of 5?

And what are the data here on the MSO1074z Google says 1 GSa/s @ 8ch and 500MS/s @ 16CH what is that now the rate it samples internally of the "Fastest Digital Signal"?

Also Google says  memory depth: 12 Mpts @ 8CH, 6 Mpts @ 16CH thats like not even a second at any decent speed.
If thats all the MSO1074z can its a deal breaker right away...

If you have a very limited budget, you must expect to live within your means.

Well in my opinion only with regard to mandatory costs, a.k.a. costs that are related to the production of every individual unit, not R&D/Software as that is a one time investment and selling a unit at mandatory costs + 10% already is not a lost for the company.
People without a limited budget have plenty of disposable income to pay for R&D/Software for all of the remaining 99% of the world.

[Monkeh]

Well in my opinion only with regard to mandatory costs, a.k.a. costs that are related to the production of every individual unit, not R&D/Software as that is a one time investment and selling a unit at mandatory costs + 10% already is not a lost for the company.
People without a limited budget have plenty of disposable income to pay for R&D/Software for all of the remaining 99% of the world.

Go run a company with that attitude, see how long you last.

You clearly aren't going to be satisfied unless you get a $10k machine for $400.

[Fungus]

Saleae has a new range of digital + analog products which may meet the OP's requirements.
https://www.saleae.com/

Except:
a) The 'oscilloscope' part is crap
b) No real-time display of anything (do they even count as oscilloscopes...?)
c) Are they actually available to buy yet? They've been a kickstarter for years with no product.

[Trax]

Well in my opinion only with regard to mandatory costs, a.k.a. costs that are related to the production of every individual unit, not R&D/Software as that is a one time investment and selling a unit at mandatory costs + 10% already is not a lost for the company.
People without a limited budget have plenty of disposable income to pay for R&D/Software for all of the remaining 99% of the world.

Go run a company with that attitude, see how long you last.

You clearly aren't going to be satisfied unless you get a $10k machine for $400.

No I just want a $2k machine for $400, thats reasonable 

No seriously, do you know what a MDSN account (DreamSpark Premium) for a university department costs? 500€ for 3 years, that is everything MS ever made in every quantity, except Office. And they are still in busyness.

It is perfectly OK to give away your products as long as you do that to an audience that wouldn't buy it for the normal retail price int he first place. Why shouldn't that apply to Hardware except that instead of for free you give it away for the raw manufacturing costs with a spatial fully featured but only allowed for research and educational use firmware.

People that want to tinker at their homes with electronics don't have the money to spend $10 on a machine, and honestly no company would spent $10 on a machine just to tinker with it, they do that expecting at some point a cost return through using or renting the device.

It is insane to expect people that are going to use a machine to play with, to pay the same price as people expecting to earn money by working with the machine.

[Monkeh]

No seriously, do you know what a MDSN account (DreamSpark Premium) for a university department costs? 500€ for 3 years, that is everything MS ever made in every quantity, except Office. And they are still in busyness.

Microsoft are an immense business and cover their costs via normal sales. Software is not a one-off cost. Not remotely. That you think it is betrays you as naive in the extreme.

What do you think pays for their website? For their support team? For them continuing to refine the software?

Yes, Saleae are expensive. They are niche products, and quite nice ones at that.

It is insane to expect people that are going to use a machine to play with, to pay the same price as people expecting to earn money by working with the machine.

It is insane to expect a small company to give you their product for free just because you claim you're not going to make money from it.

[Fungus]

It is perfectly OK to give away your products as long as you do that to an audience that wouldn't buy it for the normal retail price int he first place. Why shouldn't that apply to Hardware except that instead of for free you give it away for the raw manufacturing costs with a spatial fully featured but only allowed for research and educational use firmware.

Isn't that exactly what Rigol is doing with the DS1054Z? Everybody knows how to unlock the extra bandwidth/features so if you're prepared to hack it you can get their 1100 Euro 'scope for 300 Euros. Companies, etc., will still buy the full DS1104Z.

And...just like Microsoft they also have an interest in getting the young hackers used to the "Rigol" brand so that's the hardware they'll buy at full price when they go to get a proper job.

[Trax]

It is perfectly OK to give away your products as long as you do that to an audience that wouldn't buy it for the normal retail price int he first place. Why shouldn't that apply to Hardware except that instead of for free you give it away for the raw manufacturing costs with a spatial fully featured but only allowed for research and educational use firmware.

Isn't that exactly what Rigol is doing with the DS1054Z? Everybody knows how to unlock the extra bandwidth/features so if you're prepared to hack it you can get their 1100 Euro 'scope for 300 Euros. Companies, etc., will still buy the full DS1104Z.

And...just like Microsoft they also have an interest in getting the young hackers used to the "Rigol" brand so that's the hardware they'll buy at full price when they go to get a proper job.

Yes and thats great!

But the issue is not with Rigol but with Saleae Logic analyzer's that are possibly very overpriced while still being targeted on the enthusiast not commercial market.

What do you think pays for their website? For their support team? For them continuing to refine the software?

I never used their support. And continuing to refine the software should be payed by the commercial users with disposable income or whom expect a return on investment.

It is insane to expect a small company to give you their product for free just because you claim you're not going to make money from it.

Thats what firmware licenses are for.
Do you seriously expect a home user of an really expensive peace of equipment to ever have a return of investment? Seriously? Seriously?!


Now please lets go back to topic.....


Thinking about the limitations of the MSO1074z mostly the memory depth of only 12 Mpts @ 8CH, 6 Mpts @ 16CH...

I never used a standalone protocol analyzer, only the Saleae unit evaluating the dumped data streams with own software/scripts.
Here I head basically a endless memory depth streaming to SSD...

I'm aware that that probably wont be the case with the MSO1074z as using its GBit connection I could stream with at most 100 Mb/s (thats neglecting almost any overhead that may there be) so 100 MHz with 8 channels or 50MHz with 16 channels. If the unit even supports this, what it may not. Does it?

Now obviously to watch logic levels in real time you need only 60Hz LOL...

So my question would be what use there is from a 1GS/s logic analyzer with only a 12 Mpts memory depth, I understand that you can trigger this on a significant event but what are the typical use cases here?





Despite of my desire to have a MSO, I guess I may be better of with a DS1054Z and some reasonably priced PC based Logic analyzer that wont have a limited memory depth...

what do you think?

[rf-loop]

It is perfectly OK to give away your products as long as you do that to an audience that wouldn't buy it for the normal retail price int he first place. Why shouldn't that apply to Hardware except that instead of for free you give it away for the raw manufacturing costs with a spatial fully featured but only allowed for research and educational use firmware.

Isn't that exactly what Rigol is doing with the DS1054Z? Everybody knows how to unlock the extra bandwidth/features so if you're prepared to hack it you can get their 1100 Euro 'scope for 300 Euros. Companies, etc., will still buy the full DS1104Z.

And...just like Microsoft they also have an interest in getting the young hackers used to the "Rigol" brand so that's the hardware they'll buy at full price when they go to get a proper job.

It is very clever marketing trick after they hit it useful perhaps with DS1052E years agoa after someone hack and Rigol fast find what was result. Sales rise as Shenyang J-15. There is not any other thing what have rised popularity so much than this nearly free trick for trig Rigol avalanche to markets.  And it continue and perhaps they even accelerate this. Secret is also to keep peoples interest of it. Hack details need change after time to time so that peoples feel they really get something "free".  All understand this if they just stop this and close hack and tell that before we sell 50MHz model with price a. Now you can not buy 50MHz model. Only 100MHz model. Price is same. But no any possible to hack (with any cheap method). (It can do easy)


And also Rigol (as many other maanufacturers)  know one thing what not discussed so much example here in this forum.
It is fact that all serious professional lab need valid calibration certificate for every equipment they use. They can not hack!
If model is (example) Rigol DS1054Z. Calibration certificate read that this is DS1054Z  scope and its serial number. In calibration lab who write cal certificate they use exatly these specifications and limits what manufacturer give for this model. If someone hack scope so that it change,  this cal certificate is not anymore valid.  After then all tests what have made using this cal void scope neet push to trash can.

I think also world need somehow "weak up" for this fact that today many scopes and other test/measurement tools  can not seal using calibration void seal because possibility for changes can not lock.  Also keeping all cal certificates up to date is not cheap process. One certificate for one year may cost more than whole oscilloscope.  Who can ever proof that FW update do not change things so that after then cal certificate is not valid.

If this kind of professional user need 100MHz oscilloscope he really do not buy 50MHz scope and hack it for 100MHz model.
Keeping all in lab so that lab meets standards is not at all cheap and simple.  Of course there is lot of peoples who do not even know what is calibration certificate. (example one "calibration certificate" coming with Rigol can not use for any purpose, (if really deed meet standards in developed world) it is just as value of toilet paper.

[Trax]

...

I dint think thats always true,
for example my lab at university don't care bout calibration just about warranty and fast repair if something breaks.
My Prof. never wanted anything hacked or so as he has enough disposable funding to pay for it, but because of warranty and not breaking and not calibration.

But on topic what would be the typical use cases of a standalone logic analyzer that has a limited memory depth?
Other than looking with your 60Hz resolving eyes on the states in real time.

I wonder if I would be better suited with a  Bus Pirate (http://dangerousprototypes.com/docs/Bus_Pirate) + DSO instead of an MSO

EDIT: uuuuu!!! that looks promissing http://www.seeedstudio.com/depot/DSLogic-p-2184.html

Should I open a separate thread on cheep logic analyzers?

[Fungus]

Despite of my desire to have a MSO, I guess I may be better of with a DS1054Z and some reasonably priced PC based Logic analyzer that wont have a limited memory depth...

what do you think?

I think so too.

The "logic analysis" part of the MS1000Z seems very weak to me. Even if we ignore the limited memory it doesn't do much more than view the signals. There's no decoding or anything like that.

[Creep]

What the author doesn't seem to realise is that the manufacturing cost of a device is not the only expense the a company has. You do realise it costs a boatload of money to design and enginieer products, right? And seeing as you yourself pointed out (though I'm not entirely sold on this one), the Saleae products are aimed at the home users.  In that case why do you expect that the commercial users are going to buy the hobby equipment instead of that designed for commercial use? Scope's and LA's aren't a mass-consumer product, nobody is going to sell millions of copies of them like, for example, cell phones. So companies need to up the price by quite a bit to even pay for the enginieering costs, let alone get any profit out of it. So in the end it all comes down to the price tag you see today.

[Fungus]

Other than looking with your 60Hz resolving eyes on the states in real time.

Don't underestimate the value of that...

EDIT: uuuuu!!! that looks promissing http://www.seeedstudio.com/depot/DSLogic-p-2184.html

Should I open a separate thread on cheep logic analyzers?

No. There's far too many of them and the real value of a logic analyzer is in the software. You can't see that in the adverts.

PS: The bus pirate isn't really a logic analyser, it's a prototyping device.

PPS: And you haven't said what you want the logic analyser for.