Agilent DSOX2024 Won't Boot

[skipjackrc4]

I haven't used my DSOX2024 in a few months, and when I went to turn it on today, I got a nasty surprise--it won't boot.  The fan runs, and the buttons light up as they usually do on startup.  However, the screen remains blank and the Run/Stop and Single button lights never shut off, leaving me to believe that it's hanging up somewhere early on in the boot process.  I haven't recently changed the firmware or anything that would lead to obvious problems.

It should still be covered under warranty, but I wanted to first check to see if anyone here has encountered this problem before dealing with Keysight support.  Any ideas?

[skipjackrc4]

Right after posting this, I noticed another thread at the bottom of page regarding the same issue.  Looks like it's off to Keysight...

For those wanting to follow the other author's experience: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/oh-no!-i'm-never-buying-any-agilent-keysight-equiment-ever-again!/25/

[georgd]

I'm a DSOX3032A user, the gear still under warranty and boots regularry but thinking how much will cost me if after warranty expiration period would not boot up my scope?
Well, after registering and entering serial number of my scope on Keyisght site then queried for repair costs and system said:

Repair Per Incident     US$ 2572.00

In last two years the couple of tens users reported boot problem on this and also on Keysight users forum.
How many DSOX2000/3000 are there?
Maybe worth to think about some form of self helping community in case of boot failure.
Repairing the flash corruption is easy to do if its contents has known so reading it out with JTAG adapter and save it to case of failure.

I'm willing to contribute in self helping project or pay to some crow founded project.

Georg

[borjam]

I don't know how many DSOX2024 are there in this forum, but definitely it sounds like some design flaw.

[Wuerstchenhund]

I'm a DSOX3032A user, the gear still under warranty and boots regularry but thinking how much will cost me if after warranty expiration period would not boot up my scope?
Well, after registering and entering serial number of my scope on Keyisght site then queried for repair costs and system said:

Repair Per Incident     US$ 2572.00

That's normal, pretty much all big brands use standard repair fees outside the warranty period.

However, Keysight also offers 'Repair Agreements' which essentially are warranty extensions which can even be bought after the original warranty has expired, and which cover the instrument for any defect that might occur during the coverage period. Repair Agreements are generally a lot less expensive than a single Repair Incident, in fact, you might be surprised how cheap they can be.

I bought pretty much all my Agilent/Keysight gear on the 2nd hand market, and aside from my DSO8k scope (which will be out of support in less than a year) everything is covered by a repair agreement for peace of mind.

[bsgd]

Right after posting this, I noticed another thread at the bottom of page regarding the same issue.  Looks like it's off to Keysight...

For those wanting to follow the other author's experience: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/oh-no!-i'm-never-buying-any-agilent-keysight-equiment-ever-again!/25/

I am the poster on that thread and can confirm we're going through basically the VERY same problem. First my DSOX2024 wouldnt boot. Keysight said it was impossible to repair and sent me a brand new replacement unit. The replacement unit was also defective and showed a PLL error on screen. But the warranty had just expired and now Keysight is charging me a little more than U$ 2.000,00 to repair the brand new defective unit they sent me.

This is definitely not good company practice!!!!

[bsgd]

I don't know how many DSOX2024 are there in this forum, but definitely it sounds like some design flaw.

I will have to agree!

[Hydrawerk]

I haven't used my DSOX2024 in a few months

How old is it?

[bsgd]

I haven't used my DSOX2024 in a few months...

BTW, this is exactly what I experienced. This was a backup unit that sat in storage for a few months. When they needed it and turned it on, it didn't boot.

I wonder what could cause such behavior. At least with my unit, once it refused to turn on, it was dead. I could leave it plugged in for hours and try to restart it as many times as I could without any success.

[skipjackrc4]

I haven't used my DSOX2024 in a few months...

BTW, this is exactly what I experienced. This was a backup unit that sat in storage for a few months. When they needed it and turned it on, it didn't boot.

I wonder what could cause such behavior. At least with my unit, once it refused to turn on, it was dead. I could leave it plugged in for hours and try to restart it as many times as I could without any success.

For what it's worth, my unit was plugged in the whole time, so it's not like it was the lack of power that caused the failure (not that that should be an issue on modern equipment anyway.). I'm hoping that it is a software problem and not a hardware failure, but since Keysight sai that your unit was unrepairable, I'm not too hopeful about that.

Oh, and my scope is about 2.5 years old.  Much younger than my 30 year old HP network analyzer that still works perfectly...

[skipjackrc4]

Maybe worth to think about some form of self helping community in case of boot failure.
Repairing the flash corruption is easy to do if its contents has known so reading it out with JTAG adapter and save it to case of failure.

I'm willing to contribute in self helping project or pay to some crow founded project.

Georg

Agreed.  I'd be willing to assist as well.  There are many of these scopes out there (because they're nice pieces of equipment), and if this is really a design flaw, there's going to be a big need in the next few years.

[bsgd]

I haven't used my DSOX2024 in a few months...

BTW, this is exactly what I experienced. This was a backup unit that sat in storage for a few months. When they needed it and turned it on, it didn't boot.

I wonder what could cause such behavior. At least with my unit, once it refused to turn on, it was dead. I could leave it plugged in for hours and try to restart it as many times as I could without any success.

For what it's worth, my unit was plugged in the whole time, so it's not like it was the lack of power that caused the failure (not that that should be an issue on modern equipment anyway.). I'm hoping that it is a software problem and not a hardware failure, but since Keysight sai that your unit was unrepairable, I'm not too hopeful about that.

Oh, and my scope is about 2.5 years old.  Much younger than my 30 year old HP network analyzer that still works perfectly...

Yes, I know lack of power *shouldn't* be a problem with modern equiment, but why sitting unused is? Makes no sense why it would fail for that reason...

All I know is that it was working just fine when put in storage. Upon first power on after a few months, it wouldn't boot.

[skipjackrc4]

Yes, I know lack of power *shouldn't* be a problem with modern equiment, but why sitting unused is? Makes no sense why it would fail for that reason...

All I know is that it was working just fine when put in storage. Upon first power on after a few months, it wouldn't boot.

I'm wondering if sitting for several months is actually the cause, or if it's just a coincidence that we both had the failure after it had been sitting.  With a sample size of two, it's difficult to know.  Have you found any other threads on this forum or elsewhere about people having the same problem?  I've only found the Keysight forum that I linked.

[Hydrawerk]

My DSOX2002A was manufactured in 2012 and purchased in 2013. Now in 2016 the scope seems to be OK.
The burn-in time successfully expired.
My 5-year warranty ends in 2018. https://service.keysight.com/infoline/public/details.aspx?i=COV
Buy you know, oscilloscope is like a girlfriend. It can die overnight, but it is not very likely.

[bsgd]

Yes, I know lack of power *shouldn't* be a problem with modern equiment, but why sitting unused is? Makes no sense why it would fail for that reason...

All I know is that it was working just fine when put in storage. Upon first power on after a few months, it wouldn't boot.

I'm wondering if sitting for several months is actually the cause, or if it's just a coincidence that we both had the failure after it had been sitting.  With a sample size of two, it's difficult to know.  Have you found any other threads on this forum or elsewhere about people having the same problem?  I've only found the Keysight forum that I linked.

No I did not find anyone else complaining about this, which leads me to believe it could be related to sitting for a long time unused, since most people use their scopes every week or so at least.

Or maybe like you said it really has nothing to do with sitting on a shelf at all... but it's certainly a coincidence.

[LA7SJA]

I found this https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/agilentkeysight-dsox2022a-won't-boot!/msg756627/#msg756627, and I remember at least two other treads. This is one of them:  https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/agilent-mso-x-2014a-continuously-restarts-(/msg636249/#msg636249.

Johan-Fredrik

[Keysight DanielBogdanoff]

Hi,

Contact the local support center! A no-boot scope should qualify you for a free repair regardless of warranty status!

It sitting for a long time shouldn't have any impact on why it failed.  We've implemented some recent stability improvements that should help recover and reduce this type of issue.  The sitting for a while doesn't cause the issue.

[georgd]

A no-boot scope should qualify you for a free repair regardless of warranty status!

These words should be engraved in stone! 

Georg
(DSOX3032A owner with  1 yr warranty remain)

[Keysight DanielBogdanoff]

I should say (before it's engraved in stone somewhere) that this no-boot free repair isn't necessarily going to be around forever and ever (we have no plans to remove it) and IT DOESN'T APPLY TO EVERY SCOPE MODEL! Right now, it's just for the 2k, 3k, and 4k scopes that were shipped prior to 2016.

[bsgd]

Hi,

Contact the local support center! A no-boot scope should qualify you for a free repair regardless of warranty status!

It sitting for a long time shouldn't have any impact on why it failed.  We've implemented some recent stability improvements that should help recover and reduce this type of issue.  The sitting for a while doesn't cause the issue.

This is the kind of support I would expect from Keysight. Great Daniel!

[Fungus]

This is the kind of support I would expect from Keysight. Great Daniel!

Yes, but let's not forget that Keysight Brazil didn't support him at all.

If he hadn't got lucky on this forum he'd probably be stuck with that repair bill.

[Monkeh]

I should say (before it's engraved in stone somewhere) that this no-boot free repair isn't necessarily going to be around forever and ever (we have no plans to remove it) and IT DOESN'T APPLY TO EVERY SCOPE MODEL! Right now, it's just for the 2k, 3k, and 4k scopes that were shipped prior to 2016.

In other words, it's offered due to a known problem which can cause these models to brick themselves?

[LA7SJA]

I should say (before it's engraved in stone somewhere) that this no-boot free repair isn't necessarily going to be around forever and ever (we have no plans to remove it) and IT DOESN'T APPLY TO EVERY SCOPE MODEL! Right now, it's just for the 2k, 3k, and 4k scopes that were shipped prior to 2016.

Does this mean that you have found the error and eliminated it in the 2K, 3K and 4K scopes produced after 2015? And if so, can you tell us what caused this and tell us how to make sure it does not happen again?

Johan-Fredrik

[Hydrawerk]

Maybe a bad Flash memory? I hope this happens to 1% of the scopes or so.

[Keysight DanielBogdanoff]

We've done a couple things to improve stability over the last year-ish. First, we put in a recovery partition so if the scope doesn't boot, it should at least be recoverable.  Second, we increased the robustness of the NAND ECC to help limit errors caused by NAND failure or corruption in the boot block.

So, there's not really a bug that we fixed. Instead, it's improvements to help mitigate future potential issues.

[LA7SJA]

Maybe a bad Flash memory? I hope this happens to 1% of the scopes or so.

I for one hope that this don't happens to any HP Agilent Keysight scope, but that is just me 

Johan-Fredrik

[Keysight DanielBogdanoff]

Maybe a bad Flash memory? I hope this happens to 1% of the scopes or so.

I for one hope that this don't happens to any HP Agilent Keysight scope, but that is just me 

Johan-Fredrik

I agree! It's the nature of the beast that this type of failure will happen with this technology and volumes this size.  We're working hard to minimize it and make fixing it as small of a pain as possible for the unlucky few that have to deal with it.

[LA7SJA]

We've done a couple things to improve stability over the last year-ish. First, we put in a recovery partition so if the scope doesn't boot, it should at least be recoverable.  Second, we increased the robustness of the NAND ECC to help limit errors caused by NAND failure or corruption in the boot block.

So, there's not really a bug that we fixed. Instead, it's improvements to help mitigate future potential issues.

This new recovery partition, is it part of any of the new firmware? And how does it work?


Quote from the 70s "It's not a bug, it's a feature"

[borjam]

I agree! It's the nature of the beast that this type of failure will happen with this technology and volumes this size.  We're working hard to minimize it and make fixing it as small of a pain as possible for the unlucky few that have to deal with it.

Then, even though I am not a Keysight customer, and despite that I think that being present in a forum like this is great, I am going to make a brutally honest but constructive criticism: that naivety by your designers is simply unacceptable.

If the flash is so error prone it wouldn't harm anyone to make it easily replaceable. And, for situations such as this, it's mandatory to have a bare minimum boot environment in ROM so that at least you can replace a broken firmware. Accidents happen. A power outage can bite you during an update. Firmware can be corrupted for whatever reason, even "Alpha particle impact", as Cisco uses to call it. There are countless ways in which it can go wrong. With an adequate recovery mechanism, the customer will at most call technical support or even look up a support web page. What happens when that option is not available? Headaches, lost time and even money (seems, even though this seems to be a misunderstanding).

Last year I suffered one of those episodes with an expensive Firewire audio interface (Metric Halo). Suddenly something was badly corrupted and it refused to boot. After an email to the technical support they gave me a procedure that worked without faults. It booted into an old version of the firmware in ROM, and I could install the latest version without problems.

I know that many of the customers of high end equipment are used to support contracts but a refusal to boot without a proper recovery mechanism is plain simply bad design. Not intending to be nasty, but I didn't expect that from a high end manufacturer. And I'm sure that if I tell this story to a friend who worked in Santa Rosa several years ago he won't believe it.

Anyway, take it as a constructive criticism. Never underestimate the value of a boot loader in ROM including a firmware update mechanism, together with some firmware image validation. And, plese, for God's sake, do not take the awful PC firmware as an example. It's hard to do worse!

[nctnico]

I know that many of the customers of high end equipment are used to support contracts but a refusal to boot without a proper recovery mechanism is plain simply bad design. Not intending to be nasty, but I didn't expect that from a high end manufacturer. And I'm sure that if I tell this story to a friend who worked in Santa Rosa several years ago he won't believe it.

Well at every R&D department a fresh batch of engineers enters the arena at some point and all the stupid mistakes are made again.

[pxl]

Maybe a bad Flash memory? I hope this happens to 1% of the scopes or so.

I for one hope that this don't happens to any HP Agilent Keysight scope, but that is just me 

Johan-Fredrik

I agree! It's the nature of the beast that this type of failure will happen with this technology and volumes this size.  We're working hard to minimize it and make fixing it as small of a pain as possible for the unlucky few that have to deal with it.

How many years the device in question is distributed?

[Keysight DanielBogdanoff]

I believe the 2000 X-Series scopes were released in 2011.

[Hydrawerk]

Yes.

14. 2. 2011
Dave gets a WORLD EXCLUSIVE, a look at the new Agilent 2000 series oscilloscope being released TODAY.

[madires]

Some input about issues with NAND flash and solutions: https://users.ece.cmu.edu/~omutlu/pub/flash-error-analysis-and-management_itj13.pdf

Haven't seen any manual yet, stating that the device has to be powered every month for an hour or so at least

[bsgd]

Some input about issues with NAND flash and solutions: https://users.ece.cmu.edu/~omutlu/pub/flash-error-analysis-and-management_itj13.pdf

Haven't seen any manual yet, stating that the device has to be powered every month for an hour or so at least

Great read. Daniel, does Keysight implement any of this techniques?

[kaz911]

I agree! It's the nature of the beast that this type of failure will happen with this technology and volumes this size.  We're working hard to minimize it and make fixing it as small of a pain as possible for the unlucky few that have to deal with it.

Daniel - is there a way a fix could be performed as a "bundle" if you for example sent scope for calibration? As I own one of the absolute first MSOX's ever I'm kind of worried.... Maybe that was something worth looking into.

[wraper]

This is the kind of support I would expect from Keysight. Great Daniel!

Yes, but let's not forget that Keysight Brazil didn't support him at all.

If he hadn't got lucky on this forum he'd probably be stuck with that repair bill.

Because it wasn't no boot issue at all.

[Keysight DanielBogdanoff]

I agree! It's the nature of the beast that this type of failure will happen with this technology and volumes this size.  We're working hard to minimize it and make fixing it as small of a pain as possible for the unlucky few that have to deal with it.

Daniel - is there a way a fix could be performed as a "bundle" if you for example sent scope for calibration? As I own one of the absolute first MSOX's ever I'm kind of worried.... Maybe that was something worth looking into.

You don't have anything to worry about, the hardware hasn't changed (except for maybe that noise inductor a while back). I've seen the numbers and breakdowns for scope failures, and we're in line with or better than what we've seen historically. Ultimately, all electronics have a risk of breaking.  Computers, phones, stereos, and scopes.  I wasn't trying to get people panicking (not that you are), it just seemed like a opportune time to bring up firmware updates.

[bsgd]

This is the kind of support I would expect from Keysight. Great Daniel!

Yes, but let's not forget that Keysight Brazil didn't support him at all.

If he hadn't got lucky on this forum he'd probably be stuck with that repair bill.

Because it wasn't no boot issue at all.

Yes it was! All this nightmare started when my scope decided not to boot, and then I got a defective replacement with a PLL error.

[Keysight DanielBogdanoff]

I know that many of the customers of high end equipment are used to support contracts but a refusal to boot without a proper recovery mechanism is plain simply bad design. Not intending to be nasty, but I didn't expect that from a high end manufacturer. And I'm sure that if I tell this story to a friend who worked in Santa Rosa several years ago he won't believe it.

Well at every R&D department a fresh batch of engineers enters the arena at some point and all the stupid mistakes are made again.

It would be more accurate to say that we've improved the recovery mechanism.  There were error checking and recovery techniques used in earlier firmware, but we improved them to the point that now you'd actually see it happening as the user instead of having an unusually long boot time.

[bsgd]

This is the kind of support I would expect from Keysight. Great Daniel!

Yes, but let's not forget that Keysight Brazil didn't support him at all.

If he hadn't got lucky on this forum he'd probably be stuck with that repair bill.

I'm still stuck with that repair bill!! But Daniel is looking into this, but havent got any confirmation yet that they will actually DO something to remedy my situation.

And I DID NOT forget how bad Keysight Brazil technical support is. I even called them yesterday and the local manager said 'sorry, there's nothing we can do to help. You either pay or you will get the defective unit back'.

[Fungus]

This is the kind of support I would expect from Keysight. Great Daniel!

Yes, but let's not forget that Keysight Brazil didn't support him at all.

If he hadn't got lucky on this forum he'd probably be stuck with that repair bill.

Because it wasn't no boot issue at all.

Huh? I didn't even mention booting. 

His 'issue' is that his 'scope refuses to work (read the thread!)

His 'luck' (maybe) is that there's somebody on here who works at Keysight and cares about their public image. There's a lot of people watching this and judging Keysight's response.

[bsgd]

This is the kind of support I would expect from Keysight. Great Daniel!

Yes, but let's not forget that Keysight Brazil didn't support him at all.

If he hadn't got lucky on this forum he'd probably be stuck with that repair bill.

Because it wasn't no boot issue at all.

Huh? I didn't even mention booting. 

His 'issue' is that his 'scope refuses to work (read the thread!)

His 'luck' (maybe) is that there's somebody on here who works at Keysight and cares abotu their public image. There's a lot of people watching this and judging Keysight's response.

Even though you didn't mention booting, I just wanna say that yes, my problem was boot related.

I had a perfect working unit that all of sudden did not boot. I sent it under warranty and got a replacement right before the warranty expired, with a PLL error.

IF the first unit booted normally, I would probably still have the original scope I bought working here.

[wraper]

This is the kind of support I would expect from Keysight. Great Daniel!

Yes, but let's not forget that Keysight Brazil didn't support him at all.

If he hadn't got lucky on this forum he'd probably be stuck with that repair bill.

Because it wasn't no boot issue at all.

Huh? I didn't even mention booting. 

His 'issue' is that his 'scope refuses to work (read the thread!)

His 'luck' (maybe) is that there's somebody on here who works at Keysight and cares about their public image. There's a lot of people watching this and judging Keysight's response.

So you insist that everyone should be given free repair outside of the warranty? Free repair for no boot issue outside the warranty is offered because it is a known issue of the model.

[wraper]

Also frankly, there is not much of the fault on Keysight side. Yes, bsgd had bad luck with replacement scope. But it is not unreasonable to expect that the user within half a year had a time to check if the replacement unit is not DOA either. So probably is lying (I don't say this is the case) about unit being DOA.
From my experience working in warranty repair in the past, people who request warranty service often are BIG liers. They will lie through the teeth, insult the receptionist and so on when the warranty is rightfully refused. Like if the device is completely corroded and green inside, but they'll swear the service was at fault for this, implying he brought completely immaculate device.

[GlowingGhoul]

bgsd isn't entitled to anything. Keysight is living up to the terms of his warranty. For a little extra he could have gotten the insurance that would have covered him outside of the warranty but didn't.

That's not Keysight's fault. They owe him nothing.

[continuo]

That's not Keysight's fault. They owe him nothing.

+1

If he gets this sorted for him for free it is just out of good will on Keysights side. And yet he keeps bashing them in every single post 

[bsgd]

That's not Keysight's fault. They owe him nothing.

+1

If he gets this sorted for him for free it is just out of good will on Keysights side. And yet he keeps bashing them in every single post 

Actually folks, I went to the Comsumer Court in my city yesterday, as I said I would. I talked to the lawyer and this is considered, in our law, a 'Hidden Manufacturer Defect' and its a quite common complaint here. They asked for the paperwork, checked everything to see if I was entitled for the repair and yes, according to our law Keysight in this case should be held responsible. But I AM NOT filing a suit. Daniel has been VERY KIND and VERY helpful and I do believe what Im experiencing here is limited to the office in Brazil.

But folks please understand one thing and try to stop trying to put words in someone elses mouth: I haver NEVER bashed Keysight US (quite the contrary, please read my posts) or said I should get a free warranty or a free repair, or a free anything. I'm just telling my story so folks are aware of what might happen to them, bacuse it DID happen to me.

Imagine you just got a new replacement car under warranty, and it fails with less than 10 hours of use. Then you get back to the dealer and they give you a repair price higher than that of  a brand new car. Would you be happy? Would you fix your car? - Please put yourself in my situation and decide if you would be happy or not. Maybe this kind of situation would make you happy, and that's fine, but it doesn't work for me.

[LabSpokane]

Folks, if there was an unpowered scope failure phenomenon, it would be well known by now. There would be ton of infant mortality problems with scopes being sold through distribution.

[bsgd]

Folks, if there was an unpowered scope failure phenomenon, it would be well known by now. There would be ton of infant mortality problems with scopes being sold through distribution.

I agree and I beieve this is limited to a few units.

[GlowingGhoul]

That's not Keysight's fault. They owe him nothing.

+1

If he gets this sorted for him for free it is just out of good will on Keysights side. And yet he keeps bashing them in every single post 

Imagine you just got a new replacement car under warranty, and it fails with less than 10 hours of use. Then you get back to the dealer and they give you a repair price higher than that of  a brand new car. Would you be happy? Would you fix your car? - Please put yourself in my situation and decide if you would be happy or not. Maybe this kind of situation would make you happy, and that's fine, but it doesn't work for me.

Imagine you just got a replacement TV under warranty. You let it sit for half a year beyond it's warranty expiration date and you really, honestly turn it on for the first time and it doesn't work. You think you're entitled to a free repair or replacement.

Imagine you just got a replacement TV under warranty. You use it every day until it's months passed the warranty expiration. Then it fails, and you didn't buy the extended warranty. You want a free repair so you tell the the story above.

The only reasonable thing a company can do is honor their warranty commitment, otherwise every expired warranty will be a "special case".

He's hired a lawyer now, Keysight would be wise to back off now as I have no doubt any assistance given by them will be used to bash them over the head as an "admission of guilt".

[Keysight DanielBogdanoff]

He's hired a lawyer now, Keysight would be wise to back off now as I have no doubt any assistance given by them will be used to bash them over the head as an "admission of guilt".

Haha, I'm not too worried.  The error he's seeing is definitely a special case.  If it hadn't had been in for service recently and was the as-shipped unit it would potentially be a different story.

[bsgd]

That's not Keysight's fault. They owe him nothing.

+1

If he gets this sorted for him for free it is just out of good will on Keysights side. And yet he keeps bashing them in every single post 

Imagine you just got a new replacement car under warranty, and it fails with less than 10 hours of use. Then you get back to the dealer and they give you a repair price higher than that of  a brand new car. Would you be happy? Would you fix your car? - Please put yourself in my situation and decide if you would be happy or not. Maybe this kind of situation would make you happy, and that's fine, but it doesn't work for me.

Imagine you just got a replacement TV under warranty. You let it sit for half a year beyond it's warranty expiration date and you really, honestly turn it on for the first time and it doesn't work. You think you're entitled to a free repair or replacement.

Imagine you just got a replacement TV under warranty. You use it every day until it's months passed the warranty expiration. Then it fails, and you didn't buy the extended warranty. You want a free repair so you tell the the story above.

The only reasonable thing a company can do is honor their warranty commitment, otherwise every expired warranty will be a "special case".

He's hired a lawyer now, Keysight would be wise to back off now as I have no doubt any assistance given by them will be used to bash them over the head as an "admission of guilt".

Haha, that's funny! I believe you are kidding right?  If it aint a joke, Im sure this is just another fake profile trying to throw some gasoline on the fire, which is also great for our discussion and to bring some more attention and different perspectives  This is an open forum and I completely respect your perspective, even though it is not the reality of what I have done.

Someone in this thread recommended me to go to Procon and I told I would go, just to know if a repair in my country in this case is legal or not. Turns out according to our laws, it is legal. I have not hired a lawyer because I dont need to, this is a free public service offered by our government to protect consumers. And do you really think I could hire a lawyer for 2.000 dollars? Thats quite naive or lawyers in yoyr country earn too little haha...it would be much cheaper to just throw away the scope and get a new one! Keysight has been very helfpul, I can only thank Daniel for being so kind and understanding. I truly believe Keysight US is doing a good job dealing with this situation. I have said this here and at another thread quite a few times since Daniel joined the discussion.   


Regarding the TV example, Im sorry to know your country does not have this kind of consumer protection, but I also didnt know that until someone joined in the discussion a few pages ago and directed me to the specific law (in portuguese)  we have here that guarantees a 90 days warranty after the defect is found, not matter how much time passed since the original warranty expired, as long as the defect is not obvious and takes some time to show up or a specific condition to appear. They call this 'Hidden Manufacturing Defect'.

Thank you for bringing your perspective to my thread and sharing with us

BTW, where do you live? I'd really like to know, since I know it's not in the US or EU, whcih carry a similar but much better consumer protection laws. Please share!

[bsgd]

He's hired a lawyer now, Keysight would be wise to back off now as I have no doubt any assistance given by them will be used to bash them over the head as an "admission of guilt".

Haha, I'm not too worried.  The error he's seeing is definitely a special case.  If it hadn't had been in for service recently and was the as-shipped unit it would potentially be a different story.

Daniel, could you please lend me some money? I believe 10.000 USD will suffice. I need to hire a lawyer to take care of some situation I'm having and since we have been 'friends' for a few days I tought maybe you could help me? 

Sorry, I just couldnt resist. People here are definitely funny.

[Keysight DanielBogdanoff]

Daniel, could you please lend me some money? I believe 10.000 USD will suffice. I need to hire a lawyer to take care of some situation I'm having and since we have been 'friends' for a few days I tought maybe you could help me? 

Sorry, I just couldnt resist. People here are definitely funny.

I've got $10

[wraper]

Regarding the TV example, Im sorry to know your country does not have this kind of consumer protection, but I also didnt know that until someone joined in the discussion a few pages ago and directed me to the specific law (in portuguese)  we have here that guarantees a 90 days warranty after the defect is found, not matter how much time passed since the original warranty expired, as long as the defect is not obvious and takes some time to show up or a specific condition to appear. They call this 'Hidden Manufacturing Defect'.

Does that mean you can ask for free repair after say 20 years? BTW, the defect your scope has is quiet obvious I may say and is no way hidden.

[bsgd]

Regarding the TV example, Im sorry to know your country does not have this kind of consumer protection, but I also didnt know that until someone joined in the discussion a few pages ago and directed me to the specific law (in portuguese)  we have here that guarantees a 90 days warranty after the defect is found, not matter how much time passed since the original warranty expired, as long as the defect is not obvious and takes some time to show up or a specific condition to appear. They call this 'Hidden Manufacturing Defect'.

Does that mean you can ask for free repair after say 20 years? BTW, the defect your scope has is quiet obvious I may say and is no way hidden.

No, the law does not specify, as the product must go thought a specific condition to exhibit the problem. They told they have seen cases with 2+ years, and even some safety problems involving cars (which were worse). Of course they would never accept a case where something went wrong after 20+ years, Im sure they are smart enough to analyze the situation and only take what is considered good faith or everyone would complain about everything.

Yes, they did consider it hidden because I had to leave the equipment on for hours before the problem appeared. And since this a backup unit its rarely used for hours without being turned off (its raely used at all actually). The first time the problem showed up the equipmentwas on for 2+ hours, but the problem got worse for some reason and last time I checked it only had to be left on for 40 minutes before something went wrong. Before that period the oscilloscope worked perfectly fine and I really expect the problem to just go away but it didnt.

Someone mentioned this could be a NAND problem too, but I dont think so because of this: the problem gets worse the more the equipment is used.

[bsgd]

Daniel, could you please lend me some money? I believe 10.000 USD will suffice. I need to hire a lawyer to take care of some situation I'm having and since we have been 'friends' for a few days I tought maybe you could help me? 

Sorry, I just couldnt resist. People here are definitely funny.

I've got $10

Great, only 9.990 to go! 

[skipjackrc4]

I shipped the scope to California about two weeks, and it (or a replacement, I'm honestly not sure) came back today fully working.  The whole process was quite painless.

[j bob]

I have an answer to how often this happens. I have a dozen of these scopes that I got in mid 2012 (Junish) and put into service in January 2013. One had a boot failure in May of 2014. Another one had a boot failure in November of 2016.

[LA7SJA]

Firmware version on the failed units? Have they been updated?

Johan-Fredrik

[alanambrose]

Hi Daniel,

I suspect I have another example of this problem - it is an MSO-X-3024A. It was working fine, but I have not used it for a month as I've been coding firmware. It now doesn't boot - the panel LEDs flash a couple of times on power up with the Math and Ref LEDs staying on and that's it.

I'm based in UK. Does the UK contact centre have any knowledge of this problem do you think?

Regards,

Alan Ambrose

[Keysight DanielBogdanoff]

Hi Alan,

Definitely give the contact center a call! It's pretty painless and quick.

-Daniel

[dav]

It would be interesting to know if this problem can be fixed via the UART and/or LAN.

[Keysight DanielBogdanoff]

It would be interesting to know if this problem can be fixed via the UART and/or LAN.

Depending on the issue it's technically possible, but there's a lot of hacking to be done to get there. Which, of course, I don't recommend  .

[GoneOutAgain]

I recently ran into the boot issue myself back in May.  I had used the scope fairly often (many times in a month) since purchasing a couple years ago, but it had sat on the shelf for a few months when my tasking shifted.  I figured I'd post to reinforce the prevalence of the issue.  No screen output and the start/stop and single button lights stay on.  I haven't found any button it responds to except the power button.

[K1JOS]

What firmware version did you have?

Jerry

[Keysight DanielBogdanoff]

I'll reiterate that the new firmware releases have much better protection in place to help prevent this type of issue. There are also tens of thousands of these scopes "in the wild" so, like any electronic device, some will unfortunately have issues. However, the odds that you are the one that has an issue is very, very small.

Thanks for reaching out, let me know if you have any other questions!

Thanks,

Daniel

[dav]

The firmware I can see on Keysight website is 2.41 and is 2 years old (2015-11-02).
Is this the latest one (with protection from NAND issues) or I'm missing something?
Thanks

[Keysight DanielBogdanoff]

2.41 is the latest release.

[dav]

Hello Daniel, I have an Agilent 3014A.
I'm curious to know if when updating the firmware my unit will became a "Keysight" or it rests an "Agilent" (Agilent boot screen, Agilent logo on the top-right of information-area screen...). Thanks

[TheSteve]

Hello Daniel, I have an Agilent 3014A.
I'm curious to know if when updating the firmware my unit will became a "Keysight" or it rests an "Agilent" (Agilent boot screen, Agilent logo on the top-right of information-area screen...). Thanks

It will display a Keysight boot screen and show "Keysight" on the LCD.

[Keysight DanielBogdanoff]

Yes, the screen changes after updating. You can also upload a custom boot screen of your choosing.

[alanambrose]

>>>
Hi Daniel,

I suspect I have another example of this problem - it is an MSO-X-3024A. It was working fine, but I have not used it for a month as I've been coding firmware. It now doesn't boot - the panel LEDs flash a couple of times on power up with the Math and Ref LEDs staying on and that's it.

I'm based in UK. Does the UK contact centre have any knowledge of this problem do you think?

Regards,

Alan Ambrose
<<<

As an update to this, I contacted Keysight and the scope was fixed promptly, free of charge and with little fuss. It also came back with a fresh cal cert. Many thanks to Daniel for keeping us updated on this problem.

Alan

[Keysight DanielBogdanoff]

Thanks for the edit and I' glad everything's getting taken care of!

PSA, if you're having trouble with your Keysight equipment your local contact center is a great place to start. Little to no wait time and you get connected directly to an expert. I've even called them from time to time with questions.

[afhox]

About 2 weeks ago my DSOX 3034A presented the same boot problem as Alan described.
Contacted Keysight local center and sent my unit for repair under warranty. Got it back today with fresh cal and everything looks fine. Good service by Keysight.

[Lajon]

afhox, did it have old firmware (<2.41) when it failed?
/Lars

[afhox]

afhox, did it have old firmware (<2.41) when it failed?
/Lars

I don't remember exactly the version that was previously installed, but definitely prior to 2.41 since it was still an Agilent firmware. Unit returned with 2.41.

[funkfool]

Well now, it appears I also have a DSOX3034A that is exhibiting this issue. Powers up, lights up and will not boot. Just cycles through endlessly.
I have 5 others that show no symptoms. Has a work around been found for this issue?
I would sure be interested in it.
Flat rate repair is now $2,720.44. Waiting for a quote on repair agreement.

[georgd]

Keysight will repair your scope regardless of warranty status for this kind of issue.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/agilent-dsox2024-won't-boot/msg947259/#msg947259

Georg

[deepankar]

I have a DSO-X 2022A.I also face the same issue the scope was not in use for long time and today i turned it on and i  was taken by surprise. It wont boot. I have recorded a video that shows what happens.

[willemite]

I hadn't turned on my scope in a few months and now my DSOX2004a is suffering the same no boot issue.
I saw above that it might be repaired for free, but Keysight seems to think it will cost ... $1,167.54.
Guess I will have to try calling again.

[TK]

Ask them to check this eevblog thread and they will fix it.  I just had my unit fixed and recalibrated for free in the US.  This is from the repair report:

"Unit failed to boot due to NAND memory corruption. Unit is qualify for the Service Note MSOX3024A-05A"

[willemite]

Thank you so much, that was exactly what needed to be said (referred them to the Service Note).
Thanks

[LeMaitre]

Yesterday I had the exact same problem as alanambrose with my DSOX2002A (firmware v2.35 I think). I had not used it for a while then I went to switch it on and it would not boot. It just flashed a few lights and froze with the Math and Ref LEDs staying on. Even though it is old enough to be out of warranty, I had only used it about a dozen times. It's kinda hobby use but I do appreciate good equipment and I loved it while it worked. So I phoned Keysight UK straight away and got through to a nice chap quite quickly. I described the problem and asked if he'd seen it before and if the 2 lights mean something like an error code. He said it just means it stopped during that part of the boot sequence. What he said next made my heart sink. He said, "Our repair strategy for your scope is replacement! We don't repair those scopes in this country". He said I can send it in and they will quote me for the replacement. What a waste I thought. This fault could be a simple fix.

Then out of desperation I started searching the Internet and came across this thread. I have 2 questions:

1. To alanambrose: was your scope under warranty when it was fixed free of charge?

2. To Keysight DanielBogdanoff: does my scope qualify for a non-booting free repair out of warranty in the UK?

Thanks all.

[Keysight DanielBogdanoff]

@LeMaitre, it's possible that it qualifies. We don't repair those scopes in-country because it would be really, really expensive. The repair folks also repair things like our high end 60+ GHz scopes, so they're pretty specialized.

I would recommend calling back and asking if it "qualifies to be repaired against service note DSOX2002A-06A.” If it qualifies, repair/replacement is free. The NAND thing is for a specific range of serial numbers, but if your scope is showing these symptoms it's probably quite likely it will fall in that serial number range. If that doesn't work, send me a PM and we can discuss further.

[LeMaitre]

Thanks for that Daniel. I will contact them tomorrow.

It is a little strange that they never mentioned any of this to me. It was as if they had never seen this issue before.

[LeMaitre]

I contacted Keysight UK and asked if my scope qualifies to be repaired against that service note. They would not tell me! They said it has to go for a technical evaluation. They said another department would get in touch to arrange to collect it last week but I still have not heard anything from them.

When they said they don't repair these scopes in this country I think they meant the only option for people in the UK is replacement if anything goes wrong.

[LeMaitre]

The next week I got an email with a link to a FedEx label. They picked it up a few days later.

One week later I received the scope back and it was working!!  Looking through the option slot at the back, it seems like they changed the main board.

The note with it said "Repaired against service note DSOX2002A-06A". So it was repaired for free and outside of warranty (I received no invoice).

Why couldn't tech support have mentioned any of this on the phone? I thought my scope had been written off.

Whilst I really appreciate the free repair, I will have to think twice before buying Keysight again. It seems that if it is out of warranty, then it is a write off. I can't afford that.

A special thanks has to go to DanielBogdanoff for his assistance as I may have thrown it away if I had not known about that service note.

[Fgrir]

Whilst I really appreciate the free repair, I will have to think twice before buying Keysight again. It seems that if it is out of warranty, then it is a write off. I can't afford that.

I think that Keysight really does consider their lower-end scopes as almost disposable, given that the per-incident repair costs are usually >50% of the original selling price. On the other hand I have found their repair agreements are quite reasonably priced (at least in the US), so if you are worried about keeping your equipment for a long time I think they may still be a better option than many other players.  I recently paid $120/yr for a three year repair agreement on my MSOX3024A, and it looks like a similar plan for your DSOX2002A would only be $36/yr.

[Keysight DanielBogdanoff]

I'm so glad we were able to get you taken care of!

The challenge we have with repairs is that the same people that would repair a 2000 X-Series repair the super-high-end stuff. And the cost is the same regardless of whether it's a $1,000 or a $100,000 piece of gear. That labor cost is not negligible.

We always recommend getting an extended warranty if you're able.

Also, my understanding is that manufacturer repairs are sorta expensive no matter what brand, although I imagine we're on the more expensive end of the spectrum.

Finally, I did some digging on the phone communication. THE TECHS CANNOT TELL YOU IF THE REPAIR WILL BE COVERED OVER THE PHONE because they need to physically have the unit for eval. But, they won't charge you for repairs that you haven't approved.

[nctnico]

Finally, I did some digging on the phone communication. THE TECHS CANNOT TELL YOU IF THE REPAIR WILL BE COVERED OVER THE PHONE because they need to physically have the unit for eval. But, they won't charge you for repairs that you haven't approved.

To clarify: are you saying examination by Keysight is free?

[Tomy]

I have MSOX 2012A and it doesn't boot, as shown in video posted by deepankar (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/agilent-dsox2024-won_t-boot/msg1272116/#msg1272116).
The device was turned off for 8 to10 months and guarantee has expired :-(

I bought the device in Belgium. Now I live in Slovenia and I called local distributor, who said that because the oscilloscope was not bought from them, I have to pay transport costs and they can send device to the repair.
We will see, I hope for a free repair

[rrrrr]

I recently had a similar issue on my DSOX after not using the instrument for a couple of months, it would try and boot and then restart again and the cycle would repeat

Fortunately after several (20?) power down/up cycles it booted and ran for long enough to allow me to update the firmware. Since then I haven't had any problems

I suspect that maybe the EEPROM was wearing out and the firmware update refreshed its contents

Hopefully the update fixes the problem for good, so if any owners haven't updated their firmware in the last couple of years I suggest it be done sooner rather than later

Another bonus of the firmware update is that the boot time is cut in half!

[swperk]

I just brought my Agilent DSOX2024A back to my bench after it sat unused for several months and I have the dreaded "won't boot" issue now, too. What's the consensus about the likelihood of getting Keysight to repair it under some sort of extended warranty?

Stan

[orbital]

I have exactly the same issue with my DSO X 3024A - were those who had them recently fixed, fixed out of warranty? I've contact keysight.

[10minusT]

tl;dr: Keysight repaired my MSOX3024A in October 2022 under "Service Note MSOX3024A-05B"

I contacted Keysight last Fall and they quoted me $2000+. After a couple calls I mentioned "Service Note MSOX3024A-05A" and got confirmation there would be no charge for the repair.

Their Courier Services reached out and scheduled a pickup.  A couple weeks later I had a working scope with a fresh calibration certificate.

The Customer Service Report references "Service Note MSOX3024A-05B".
The no-charge repair under Service Note "MSOX3024A-05A" ended October 2019 so they must have extended the program.

[10minusT]

I have exactly the same issue with my DSO X 3024A - were those who had them recently fixed, fixed out of warranty? I've contact keysight.

My unit was well out of warranty.

[charliex]

our agilent dsox-2002a did the same thing where it wouldn't boot, and then some fiddling and it booted after a while. but a week or two later same thing. so this time once it started updated to the keysight re-branding. has  booted a few times now, will check back in in a few weeks to see if it still boots.

so flashed feb 24th, still boots. 13/4