Another Hameg HM605: has anybody dug up full service manual in English?

[jtu]

Hi,

Got my first scope recently on Ebay.

Well, technically not the first. But I won't go into describing my (typical!) beginner's bad decision making. Neither into how my experience with bitScope Micro made my opinion that it is a waste of time and money and probably should not be advertised and sold as a scope to beginners

Seller told that this HM605 beauty has been sitting on a shelf for 15 years in proper conditions. Certainly seem so, because it looks and works nice to my beginners eye.

I'm willing to check it myself as much as I can, but I can't find the full manual in English. Has anybody here? I specifically mean appendices containing servicing instructions, not the user manual part which is very easy to google.

I checked forum here for this model, but no links to English _full_ manual. I googled for close to an hour, no luck. I tried to translate, but that's too slow, I did 1/2 a page in ~1/2 hour. And not very precise. I will continue probably, but decided to post here. Just hoping to get lucky

There's a small issue with the scope, but that's another post.

Veiksmi,
J?nis

[tronde]

Since you mention it's difficult to translate, I assume you have the complete manual in German? If not, it can be found here

http://elektrotanya.com/hameg_hm-605_oscilloscope_deutsch_im.pdf/download.html

If you tell more about the fault symptom, we can try to help.

[MK14]

OP. What makes you think it is all in German ?

It has BOTH the English and German languages, for BOTH user and service sections.

Did you think it was all in German ?

The German is on the left hand side (but please DON'T PANIC), because the English is on the right hand side, on the same page. (Apart from the initial top section, which has separate, English/German sections).

http://elektrotanya.com/hameg_hm605_oscilloscope_um.pdf/download.html

tl;dr
As far as I can tell, it has got everything in English (and German).

[jtu]

Yes, tronde, I meant the German one. Thanks for another link.

As about the symptom, it kind of "looses" timescale after it warms up. E.g. the whole signal appears as a vertical line of various intensity, depending on the signal, on the very left of the screen. Gentle "tapping" helps to get signal back for a while, then it happens again and so on. Generally, I can work with it, my needs are not very time consuming or intensive (yet). But it is annoying. Plus if there is no signal e.g. just a line on the screen, that line becomes a very intensive point and I don't like that, can't leave scope on without watching it.

I saw some references to similar problem while googling for the manual, but didn't have time to go into details yet.

[jtu]

MK14, I looked through one more time, both version I had before and the one you linked. Sorry, but I still don't see it...

What I see is the following:
* English user manual (pages M1-M20)
* then there is user manual in German (the same page numbers)
* then there is testing appendix (pages T1-T5) - just in German
* service manual appendix (pages S1-S3) - again, just German
* diagrams, schematics, adjustments etc (pages D1-to the end) - here it starts in both languages as you describe

btw, testing appedix is mentioned in English table of contents, but isn't there, service appendix isn't even mentioned. However, both are mentioned in German version of the table of contents and both are in place.

I want to read testing and service appendices. My German really sucks, I know probably a hundred words and close to zero grammar, barely can get around being in Germany talking to somebody if the other person does not understand English

[MK14]

MK14, I looked through one more time, both version I had before and the one you linked. Sorry, but I still don't see it...

What I see is the following:
* English user manual (pages M1-M20)
* then there is user manual in German (the same page numbers)
* then there is testing appendix (pages T1-T5) - just in German
* service manual appendix (pages S1-S3) - again, just German
* diagrams, schematics, adjustments etc (pages D1-to the end) - here it starts in both languages as you describe

btw, testing appedix is mentioned in English table of contents, but isn't there, service appendix isn't even mentioned. However, both are mentioned in German version of the table of contents and both are in place.

I want to read testing and service appendices. My German really sucks, I know probably a hundred words and close to zero grammar, barely can get around being in Germany talking to somebody if the other person does not understand English

I agree, you are right. I did not notice, when I looked at it.

I believe the HM604/605 are somewhat similar. But I could easily be wrong, as I've never used/encountered those models, myself. Except maybe VERY briefly, if at all.

The following has the user/Service manual for the HM604, entirely in English, which might help, if it is similar enough. But it seems to be missing many sections, but does have some stuff in it.

http://www.ko4bb.com/getsimple/index.php?id=download&file=06_Misc_Test_Equipment/Hameg/Hameg_HM604_Oscilloscope_Service_Manual.pdf

They have the HM605 as well, but the English one is ONLY the user manual (again), and the service one has lots of German. So I don't think they help.

Is it the timebase switch area, whose contacts need cleaning or something, messing up your x axis, or do you think it is something else, inside the scope. Banging it (changing the problem) makes me wonder about contact cleaner and loose switches/connectors/(poor solder joints, as mentioned by an earlier poster) etc.

[MK14]

According to this thread:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hameg-hm604-service-manual/

You just need to email Hameg, and they will email you back, the service manual PDF. I DON'T know if they have got it in ENGLISH. Hopefully they will have an English one for you. If NOT, at least they can tell you one does not currently exist.
At a guess, I think they would have one in English as well.

[jtu]

Thanks for the advice regarding manual, I'll try it.

Contact cleaning was my first thought too. Especially because on the first try after I got it, touching several knobs took a bit of noise on the screen. That basically has disappeared now. But the x axis issue worries me a bit, because it appears just after scope has warmed up, ~10-15 minutes.

[MK14]

Thanks for the advice regarding manual, I'll try it.

Contact cleaning was my first thought too. Especially because on the first try after I got it, touching several knobs took a bit of noise on the screen. That basically has disappeared now. But the x axis issue worries me a bit, because it appears just after scope has warmed up, ~10-15 minutes.

If it repeatedly works fine from cold, then fails after 10..15 minutes, that sounds a bit like components getting hot, making a difference.
It could be failed electrolytic capacitors, which just about work when cold, but when hot, lose too much ability to work, enough when hot.
But many other component types, also change when hot.
Some people claim they use freezer spray to try to find out which part(s), are going bad and/or maybe even some kind of thermal temperature meter or camera.

The schematics will help a lot, if it is something like that. Do all the electrolytic capacitors, look good ?
No ones bulging/leaking etc ? (they can still be bad, even if they look ok).

[stj]

It could be failed electrolytic capacitors, which just about work when cold, but when hot, lose too much ability to work, enough when hot.

electrolytics dont work like that, they run better as they warm up.
this sounds like a solder joint or a semiconductor.

[MK14]

It could be failed electrolytic capacitors, which just about work when cold, but when hot, lose too much ability to work, enough when hot.

electrolytics dont work like that, they run better as they warm up.
this sounds like a solder joint or a semiconductor.

I've very little experience with repairing scopes. So I'm reasonably happy to stand corrected, as to the most likely faults.

What I should have said is that older electrolytic capacitors, sometimes fail/deteriorate, so the OP may want to check their condition. But I should not have claimed that it was a likely explanation for the x-axis fault.

[Shock]

The symptom of working when tapping, then not (based on heat) is commonly dry/intermittent solder joints, dirty controls/pots is also a possibility. 

[madires]

Please see https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/hameg-archive/HM605_english.pdf 

[MK14]

Please see https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/hameg-archive/HM605_english.pdf 

That's nice, but the OP really wants the service manual to help repair it, rather than the user manual. We/OP have found them in German, but not the complete service manual in English. I guess the thread title is confusing, as it is really the service manual he needs/wants.

[tronde]

Gentle tapping points towards a weak solder joint. The scope is about 30 years old, so nothing strange there and not uncommon in older Hameg scopes.

I would start with the time base board, page D9, and tap. Use a rather small screwdriver with a plastic handle, and tap lightly on the PCB with the handle while holding in the shank. Work systematically from one end of the board towards the other end as you observe the line on the CRT. It can be time consuming to track weak solder joints. They will most likely look like this. You can see the circular "trace" around the pin.

[oldway]

I think this is what you are looking for:

[jtu]

Please see https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/hameg-archive/HM605_english.pdf 

madires, thanks, but your linked file does not contain equipment and testing chapters I'm looking for

[jtu]

Please see https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/hameg-archive/HM605_english.pdf 

That's nice, but the OP really wants the service manual to help repair it, rather than the user manual. We/OP have found them in German, but not the complete service manual in English. I guess the thread title is confusing, as it is really the service manual he needs/wants.

indeed sorry about confusing thread title, I'm really not professional and my hobbyist run hours count is also not that great

PS also, I don't understand what OP stands for

[jtu]

I think this is what you are looking for:

oldway, perfect, now we have equipment testing chapter in a language I can use! big thanks!

I'm still in a hunt for the service chapter, anybody?

[MK14]

PS also, I don't understand what OP stands for

OP = Original Poster = You!

In online discussion forums, OP is short for original poster -- the person who started a discussion thread. Within the forum thread others may direct comments specifically to the original poster using the OP abbreviation. The original poster may also include this abbreviation in subsequent posts he or she contributes.

P.S. What does 'PS' stand for ?
(Joke). 

[jtu]

I just opened this beauty for a quick inspection of the internals. You can look at the pics, not high quality, just iPhone camera under non-perfect lighting. But size wise well over the forum limit, so check the link to my GD at the end of the post.

A few observations.

First, caps look very good for the age. Not a tiniest bit of bulging nor any thermal stress signs that I could notice.

2nd, inside is very dusty. Especially top board. Which is timebase board as far as I understand. Might do some air dusting of the insides of the scope. Any advice on dusting an old scope?

3rd, I did not notice any thermal stress on any components except for the big green box named HV-cascade on Z-board at the rear and a few components around it. I don't know what it is, will read.

4th, I was a bit surprised first when I noticed that CRT tube (rear end) connections are not soldered. Wires leading to pins have kind of inserts instead. On a second thought, I remembered that I haven't seen any tube soldered actually (my father was very into restoring of old tube radios, I have his collection of 20+ mid 20th century ones and a heap of parts on my hands now and don't know what to do with it...). Quite logical not to do quick thermal things to big glass thingy empty with vacuum I moved the inserts up/down a bit (bad contacts thinking).

That's it regarding inspection.

I put the case back on, turned it up and it seems that state of things has changed...

Problem has not disappeared, but symptoms has changed a bit. Not that it makes things more clear to me.

First signs of the problem appeared later than previously. Previously it took 10-15 minutes, now I waited for almost 30 minutes before it happened. Tapping does not help anymore, even more than gentle tapping does not. I tried messing with controls while it did the thing, not that I could notice any correlation. Problem appears for much shorter periods now, goes away quite quickly itself. After ~ one hour it seems gone. Scope is running for more than a second hour now and I have not noticed the problem since approximately during the second half an hour of operation.

I'm still thinking-hoping that it's a contacts/pots problem. How do you address a pot problem btw, replace the pot?

I took a few ~30 sec videos while the problem manifested itself. It seem that this forum does not support video attachments (and why should it?) so I uploaded to Youtube. Check the following links if you want to see and comment. I'm not a Youtuber, so let me know it links does not work.
https://youtu.be/sm4o18oqQRw
https://youtu.be/JJOuPvmr738
https://youtu.be/KoutXDdCfQk

Link to pics: https://goo.gl/photos/tArA5ZYK5fR3d52R6

[jtu]

during the third hour of operation problem appeared again but very briefly, ~ for half a second for three times quickly in a row with pauses of few seconds

btw, temperature of the case at back end is ~43 Celsius now at the beginning of 4th hour of operation

[jtu]

I checked headings in the hm604 manual, thanks MK14!

It seem very similar indeed, testing and servicing chapter headings are almost identical, except for Triggerempfindlichkeit (something about trigger sensitivity) heading and the corresponding text missing from the English version of HM604. So, by no means identical. But in case I'll end up translating the service chapter, this will be very helpful. But I'll wait a bit before I go into translating, kind of hoping somebody might come up with a translation like oldway did with the testing chapter. Or email Hameg.

[tronde]

The green HV-cascade is the high voltage "generator" for the anode voltage of the CRT.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voltage_multiplier

It will most likely attract dust or small particles from the air. This will make it look dirty or sometimes burnt. In this scope you will have about 15kV anode voltage, so take care. It is well insulated, but don't touch it when powered up. The CRT will act as a capacitor, so the high voltage can remain for some time after power off.

I would take a closer look on all solder joints. It can be very difficult to find weak joints so be patient. You can tap directly on the solder side of the PCB, but not as hard as you tapped the metal case. Weak solder joints can be very sensitive to thermal change, and when it has been subject to some kind of movement it can be more or less sensitive.

You should also operate all switches and other controls on the front panel. If you use some kind of chemical contact cleaner, you should be careful and not drown everything, especially the input stages are sensitive to changes in electrical properties of the insulating materials. Too much cleaner can make trouble for the high frequency properties of the scope.

It seems like the horizontal sweep stops. That is a strong indication for the time base board or any switch connected to it.

I have seen many older Hameg scopes with weak solder joints. All single-sided PCBs form that era suffers from weak joints.

Try to remove as much dust as you can. A soft brush and a vacuum cleaner will be useful.

Be patient, take care, and you will end up with a very good scope.

[oldway]

I think this is what you are looking for:

oldway, perfect, now we have equipment testing chapter in a language I can use! big thanks!

I'm still in a hunt for the service chapter, anybody?

There is no service chapter in the manual in english.
Here are the last pages of the manual in english:
Scan quality is bad, use the german manual for schematics.

[oldway]

And the last ones:

[jtu]

And the last ones:

thank you, oldway!

[CJay]

Just a note, may be teaching granny to suck eggs and it is slightly off topic but it sort of applies here, Windows 10 has a cute feature (one of the only ones) that allows you to select a bunch of images and right click, print to PDF which will compile them all into a nice neat PDF file.

Just make sure the images are named so they're sorted in page order.

[sprit]

Hello. does anyone here have model HM604-3?  Can you take a photo of this rear panel for me?  thank you very much.