EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
Products => Test Equipment => Topic started by: bd139 on July 08, 2018, 06:30:30 pm
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I’ve got a Keysight U1241C at the moment which I rather like and a couple of junk meters. However I need another reliable DMM so i can do multiple measurements at the same time. I was going to hit a bench meter but nothing comes up in my price range or quality metric. These are going to be used on primary side of SMPS etc worst case so no fake CAT rating junk will be factored in.
This leaves me with the 87V of which there are new boxed ones floating around for a reasonable amount of cash.
Any reason not to choose an 87V in 2018?
So far i see better longevity, calibration stability, basic accuracy, parts availability and protection than the U1241C.
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Any reason not to choose an 87V in 2018?
One word: "Brymen (https://brymen.eu/shop/bm869s/)".
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Which one and why? I have looked at the BM867S for ref but they are pretty much impossible to find. I assume that if it snuffs it I’m going to be in the same situation ie find another one.
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87V is ok but it has a poor LCD , it is too dark for working in the shack. Fine for outside though or with backlight on.
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That was one reason I got the U1241C. It gets used for poking around in the car in the dark and it has insanely good BL and a torch (and is waterproof). Plus current loop measurement.
Looking at Telonic stock now...
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Which one and why? I have looked at the BM867S for ref but they are pretty much impossible to find. I assume that if it snuffs it I’m going to be in the same situation ie find another one.
235, 867s, 869s. Should be on ebay. tme.eu also have them (or used to have). Concerning why, latter models have dual display :P
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I’m looking at the BM235 and I don’t like it so far. See lots of problems and complaints.
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The 87V's defaulting to AC is an annoyance for some.
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Look this: https://www.welectron.com/Brymen-BM867s-Multimeter_3 (https://www.welectron.com/Brymen-BM867s-Multimeter_3)
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Already on the comparison list.
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Starting out with a bench meter, then to the 87V and ending up with the BM235. That's a large spread. :-// What features does the 87V have that you chose it over a bench meter?
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Takes up less space and gives me a backup portable if I kill the 1241C. Low end bench/high end handheld territory this one.
BM235 eliminated.
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In principle a bench meter can sit on a shelf and not take up work space, can have a large clear display in line of sight, can be always on, can be connected to instrumentation software for automation and logging, has many more features like ratio measurement and math functions. It's quite a different tool than a handheld meter.
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Takes up less space and gives me a backup portable if I kill the 1241C. Low end bench/high end handheld territory this one.
BM235 eliminated.
What is your budget?
What didn't you like (specifically) about the BM235?
Other than safe to attach to the mains, what features are you going to look at?
The reason I ask is that there are lots of meters out there which are darn good, but might not fit your needs. For instance, I have a fluke 117 which is what I use when I'm doing house wiring since I actually trust it to not blow up in my hands. But I wouldn't recommend it for electronics. But I would definitely recommend it (or perhaps it's slightly cheaper/less featured sibling) to anyone who is needing a wiring DMM.
On my bench I have a DM3058E and a HMC8012, both are decent meters, but possibly out of your price range. If I was replacing the DM3058E I'd probably buy a used 34401 or a keithley 2000 or 2001 or something similar. The HMC8012 I'd replace with a like model since it does cool power stuff such as simulataneous AC+DC and peak/average over a long time, etc.
For the occasional handheld use, I either grab some crap thing that is floating around (I have some fairly decent meters which were free w/purchase from electronic suppliers, but I'm sure not safe for mains), or the BM235. I sure haven't found any major issues with the BM235 - although I haven't used it a lot.
I'm assuming you know about the chart at: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/multimeter-spreadsheet/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/multimeter-spreadsheet/)
And to directly answer your question: I haven't personally used the 87V. I also haven't ever had bad luck with any fluke instrument, with the caveat that Fluke meters often seem to be more oriented toward industry than electronics, which may or may not be a good thing for you.
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I have two 6.5 digit bench meters and a 5.5 digit bench one and the 87V which cost me £190 new old stock. I also have an ancient Maplin meter which is actually quite good.
I've found myself using the 87V quite a lot, it is accurate and robust and very handy especially at the moment when I don't have my lab setup properly. It is a bit of a waste really as I only really use it for V or ohms but I feel it is like the good hp calculators used to be, they may not have any more features or more accuracy than a cheaper casio one but they are nice to use and I like using well engineered stuff. It is the joy of using a really solid, reliable bit of kit built to last.
So I think you probably don't need an 87V but I don't think you can go far wrong getting one. In fact from time to time I even think of getting a second one which would be completely mad!
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BM257S has bar graph if that means anything to you.
As an excellent electronics meter I would recommend BM869S. It has pretty much anything you can think of.
I actually don't fire up benchtop meter as often as I used to. At 220€ new with accessories , best buy by far.
It is actually superior to F87V. Except really nice diode mode that Fluke meters have.. Everything else is superior on BM869S.
Regards,
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BM257S has bar graph if that means anything to you.
As an excellent electronics meter I would recommend BM869S. It has pretty much anything you can think of.
I actually don't fire up benchtop meter as often as I used to. At 220€ new with accessories , best buy by far.
It is actually superior to F87V. Except really nice diode mode that Fluke meters have.. Everything else is superior on BM869S.
Regards,
Not that I own a Brymen but watching all the vids that Joe Smith has done, guess which one is always the first he reaches for .....869 !
He's got 87's too but doesn't use them as much.
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The 87V was and still is the staple electrical meter. Electronics on the other hand, have a much higher choice since you won't be in a CAT IV environment, though many meters are certified for that usage.
Have you considered the 121GW? It's pretty spiffy. I'd still take my 869 over it though.
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Any reason not to choose an 87V in 2018?
One word: "Brymen (https://brymen.eu/shop/bm869s/)".
Which one and why?
The one I linked to in the word "Brymen (https://brymen.eu/shop/bm869s/)".
Why? Read the specs, look at the price, check out how much abuse joe gave one in his robustness tests.
they are pretty much impossible to find. I assume that if it snuffs it I’m going to be in the same situation ie find another one.
You can buy one through that link. They have a 3 year garantee.
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I can vouch for Brymen as an alternative to Flukes. Despite I don't have a BM869S, other resident experts vouch for it. About five years ago I bought a NOS BM857 and it is quite well engineered, robust, accurate (17 years after its Mfg Date) and has many really logical features such as remembering the last selected function, input jack alert and really quick auto range.
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Takes up less space and gives me a backup portable if I kill the 1241C. Low end bench/high end handheld territory this one.
BM235 eliminated.
So far i see better longevity, calibration stability, basic accuracy, parts availability and protection than the U1241C.
I didn't understand your last sentence from the first post. Did you have problems with the Keysight? If you like the 1241C and it does everything you need, why not get a second one? Don't tell me your detent spring broke in the rotary switch?! :-DD :-DD
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had a brymen 859s made a mistake to sell it ... was fast and very well build, loved it better than a borrowed 869s ... less shaky on the tilt stand ...
totally hate the AC mode on the fluke 8x rev V series, totally hate it ...
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Thanks for the feedback everyone.
Budget is about £350. Reason I don’t want another U1241C is I don’t want two things with the same failure path potentially plus the price has ramped up recently due to the shit exchange rate. And I could do with a slightly higher count.
While I respect what people have said about the Brymen meters they seem to have niggling quality problems. I haven’t found somewhere that someone doesn’t have a weird problem with a particular model.
Regarding requirements, 20,000 count, good basic accuracy, reliable and stable cal, reliable protection, spare parts available, 10-20KHz AC bandwidth, min max, decent continuity, quality probes, decent value retention
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Thanks for the feedback everyone.
Budget is about £350. Reason I don’t want another U1241C is I don’t want two things with the same failure path potentially plus the price has ramped up recently due to the shit exchange rate. And I could do with a slightly higher count.
While I respect what people have said about the Brymen meters they seem to have niggling quality problems. I haven’t found somewhere that someone doesn’t have a weird problem with a particular model.
Regarding requirements, 20,000 count, good basic accuracy, reliable and stable cal, reliable protection, spare parts available, 10-20KHz AC bandwidth, min max, decent continuity, quality probes, decent value retention
What quality problems are you talking about ? Quality is easily on Fluke level or higher...
BM869S:
-100KHz + bandwith
- Conductance mode
- Dual display ( dual temp, AC+DC at the same time, AC and frequency etc..)
- 50000 digit (500000 digit in DC voltage)
- 0,02% accuracy (mine was verified to better than that)
- it remembers last mode you left it in..
etc, etc.
And rock solid... I'm not a fanboy, just don't know what problems are you talking about.. All I know is fanboys dismissing it for not being big brand.
It doesn't have auto hold, it doesn't have Fluke type diode measurement. If that is important to you than it might not be for you. Everything else is superb. And no quality problems that I know of. If you know about something please let me know, I would appreciate it.
Regards,
Sinisa
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Wrong question, here's the correction:
Any reason to choose the 87V in 2018?
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I'm not sure if it has been mentioned already but a member just sold a brand new Keysight U1282A in the Buy/ Sell Section and stated that he may have another one, they are a very nice fully featured 66000 count meter so certainly worth a look, I think it went for around $350 but not sure which currency.
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While I respect what people have said about the Brymen meters they seem to have niggling quality problems. I haven’t found somewhere that someone doesn’t have a weird problem with a particular model.
I don't have any problems with the BM869s. It feels like a mature, stable, solid product.
I have the BM235 and that is also fine.
However, if you have an inherent bias against Brymen meters you shouldn't get one. You will just spend your time looking for something wrong with it.
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Any reason not to choose an 87V in 2018?
Because there are better bang-per-buck meters available.
Brymen are kicking butt in the high CAT end of town.
That said, the 87V is still a great meter
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totally hate the AC mode on the fluke 8x rev V series, totally hate it ...
Agreed, really annoying. I was >:( they changed it from default DC in the 87-III
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The 87V was and still is the staple electrical meter. Electronics on the other hand, have a much higher choice since you won't be in a CAT IV environment, though many meters are certified for that usage.
Have you considered the 121GW? It's pretty spiffy. I'd still take my 869 over it though.
I wouldn't buy the 121GW for primarily high CAT rated work, it's not designed for that. It has a genuine UL CAT III rating of course, so it's fine for most stuff. But if you want to get specific, it's not in the same class as say as a good CAT IV rater meter. I think Brymen are the only ones that do a CAT IV 1000V meter?
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For ref, BM869S is on top of the spreadsheet at the moment. BM867S covers my requirements perfectly as well.
Only thing is we have supply problem in the UK. Telonic sell both for bugger all but have no stock. TME sell both but they're much more expensive.
Edit: I don't need differential temperature measurement or anything to do with VFD so 867S is on top now :)
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For ref, BM869S is on top of the spreadsheet at the moment. BM867S covers my requirements perfectly as well.
Isn't the Fluke 87V one of the worst meters on Joe's list?
In terms of electrical ruggedness, basically any meter that is independently CAT IV UL rated is going to be fine, and that includes the 87V even though it does poorly in Joe's tests.
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For ref, BM869S is on top of the spreadsheet at the moment. BM867S covers my requirements perfectly as well.
Isn't the Fluke 87V one of the worst meters on Joe's list?
In terms of electrical ruggedness, basically any meter that is independently CAT IV UL rated is going to be fine, and that includes the 87V even though it does poorly in Joe's tests.
Joe retested a newer revision of the 87V, it did far better - among the top. Might have been a fluke.
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Not overly concerned as long as the rating is accurate and verifiable i.e. not some hooky crap with a label on it and that's it. I'm going to be 90% CAT II or lower installation and 10% CAT III, 0% CAT IV with this. Maybe more CAT III if our resident sparky sticks himself across a busbar in the DC :-DD
Joe is primarily interested in seeing where the line is. I'm mostly interested in knowing the line is above the label on the front :)
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869 has better DC accuracy and much better AC accuracy with 100kHz bandwith (-3dB point is few hundred kHz).
VFD mode is handy to measure class D audio amplifiers and other PWM stuff.. It is basically low pass filter mode...
That is why I opted for 869 and not 867. It makes for a more universal instrument.
As for source, check brymen.eu or welectron too.. brymen.eu seems to give 3 year warranty..
I have a 869S and 525S. I took 525S for logging and general work... That one is probably more than most people need..
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Joe is primarily interested in seeing where the line is. I'm mostly interested in knowing the line is above the label on the front :)
In that case its just a matter of independent UL/ETL testing. Most of the big names do it, with the exception of the Japanese ones that do it in-house.
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I’ve got a Keysight U1241C at the moment which I rather like and a couple of junk meters. However I need another reliable DMM so i can do multiple measurements at the same time. I was going to hit a bench meter but nothing comes up in my price range or quality metric. These are going to be used on primary side of SMPS etc worst case so no fake CAT rating junk will be factored in.
This leaves me with the 87V of which there are new boxed ones floating around for a reasonable amount of cash.
Any reason not to choose an 87V in 2018?
So far i see better longevity, calibration stability, basic accuracy, parts availability and protection than the U1241C.
I’d look at the Fluke 28 II as well. Here in Switzerland, for example, the 28 II actually tends to sell for less than the 87V! (Unlike in USA.) And it’s got the advantage of being ruggedized and using AA batteries instead of 9V.
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Everyone should own a 87V - just because! I have a few, but still use my BM869s most of the time. The Brymen meter simply has more features, higher accuracy and it feels really nice. BM867s is supposedly also a nice meter, but I don't own that one and can't compare.
Reasons to go for a 87V anyway:
- Autohold
- Handles frequent drops on concrete floors a lot better than the Brymen
- Less cluttered screen (and fewer digits) - if you're into that kind of thing.
- It's yellow!
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While I respect what people have said about the Brymen meters ... I haven’t found somewhere that someone doesn’t have a weird problem with a particular model.
Anybody here have weird problems? :popcorn:
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Head says BM869
Heart says 87V
Go with your heart
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Got email from Telonic who appear to have just unpacked their stock. BM867S on way to arrive tomorrow.
Thanks all.
Went with head. Head is less complicated.
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Got email from Telonic who appear to have just unpacked their stock. BM867S on way to arrive tomorrow.
Thanks all.
Went with head. Head is less complicated.
That's what a good head on you shoulders is for :-)
Regards,
Sinisa
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2bd139 I'd love to know your opinion about it (after some use) as I want to buy 869s.
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Will post a review after a month or so of use. :-+
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Only thing is we have supply problem in the UK. Telonic sell both for bugger all but have no stock. TME sell both but they're much more expensive.
Have you tried looking for Brymen meters under other names in the UK? In Denmark they are sold as Elma meters, for instance.
Edit: Missed that you have already ordered a meter..
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I got a Fluke 28 II, because it turned out to be a fair bit cheaper than the 87V, and had an IP67 rating to boot. I believe the kit for the 28II may not be as well equipped as the 87V kit is though, but it has your basic thermocouple and probes with crocodile clips included.
Some things I don't like:
- diode function only goes up to 2V which is no good for most LEDs out there and some rectifiers - can be worked around by connecting a diode across a variable current-limited voltage source and measuring DC voltage across the diode, but this is a bit cumbersome.
- current goes to AC by default.
- inconsistent on/off (particularly when the meter decides to turn off on its own, and you have the dial stuck in a range instead of the OFF position).
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Only thing is we have supply problem in the UK. Telonic sell both for bugger all but have no stock. TME sell both but they're much more expensive.
Have you tried looking for Brymen meters under other names in the UK? In Denmark they are sold as Elma meters, for instance.
Edit: Missed that you have already ordered a meter..
I had a good look around at sale options and Telonic who is my usual supplier of Rigol stuff came up but were out of stock. Sent them an email and they had a delivery this morning conveniently. For ref, order link is here: https://www.telonic.co.uk/Brymen-BM867s-Multimeter-p/bm867s.htm (https://www.telonic.co.uk/Brymen-BM867s-Multimeter-p/bm867s.htm)
I got a Fluke 28 II, because it turned out to be a fair bit cheaper than the 87V, and had an IP67 rating to boot. I believe the kit for the 28II may not be as well equipped as the 87V kit is though, but it has your basic thermocouple and probes with crocodile clips included.
Some things I don't like:
- diode function only goes up to 2V which is no good for most LEDs out there and some rectifiers - can be worked around by connecting a diode across a variable current-limited voltage source and measuring DC voltage across the diode, but this is a bit cumbersome.
- current goes to AC by default.
- inconsistent on/off (particularly when the meter decides to turn off on its own, and you have the dial stuck in a range instead of the OFF position).
That would all annoy the shit out of me.
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I have had the 867s for around a year or more now. Not notice any funny problems or anything like that...... unless I count as a "funny problem" for the meter? Who knows??
I've blown a couple of fuses and some other stupid chit and it kindles up fine every time soon as the crispy bit is replaced. It's never skipped a step as far as accuracy is concerned and matches my calibrated 289 near dead on.
I would highly recommend the 867s buddy. You won't be disappointed. :)
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Wow - 108ukp +vat seems like a great price from telonic for the BM867S
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Yeah that’s what I thought. Also free next day courier here in U.K.
I’ve put a lot of money through them in the last couple of years as well with no problems. Excellent company. In fact my last purchase with them came with a cheap Brymen pocket DMM which lives in the car now.
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maybe finding some fluke 187 or 189 nearby ???
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For ref, BM869S is on top of the spreadsheet at the moment. BM867S covers my requirements perfectly as well.
Isn't the Fluke 87V one of the worst meters on Joe's list?
In terms of electrical ruggedness, basically any meter that is independently CAT IV UL rated is going to be fine, and that includes the 87V even though it does poorly in Joe's tests.
Joe retested a newer revision of the 87V, it did far better - among the top. Might have been a fluke.
You can always find the most recent data on-line:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1cXzYpIoyVm9QJUju4KXqM22CEQZP3_xwWvDyeVwxTy4/edit?usp=sharing
Yep, and just to add a bit more, I had gone back to the original 87V that I had repaired and ran extensive tests on it to try and understand why there was such a drastic difference in the performance between the new and old meter. In the end, I have no answer. By design, it should have done very well against my tests. I ended up turning up the generator for a repeat. Video is here.
https://youtu.be/GhslaLKOpKE
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Isn't the Fluke 87V one of the worst meters on Joe's list?
In terms of electrical ruggedness, basically any meter that is independently CAT IV UL rated is going to be fine, and that includes the 87V even though it does poorly in Joe's tests.
That's not what I have been seeing. There are a few meters, like the 121GW that actually have performed quite poorly against my tests. In the case of the 121GW, I've explained the weak point and demonstrated one possible way to improve it. I suspect when/if the meter becomes available, I plan to run the released version and see if it repeats.
The AMPROBE AM530 is another meter that did not hold up very well. IMO, the worse was the Summit/TPI 194II.
If a meter can't out perform the AMPROBE AM510, IMO, it's not very robust. So far it does appear that the name brands, Brymen, Fluke, HIOKI have all done very well. I've ran a fair number of Flukes and the old 87V was the only flyer. I'm glad a I took the time to repeat the test with a new one and then went back and looked at the old one. It cements the fact the Fluke as much as I hate to admit it, makes some solid products.
The two AMPROBEs were made by UNI-T and both are certified. It's a bit strange and UNI-T makes a UT181A which someone pointed out is also certified. If that is true, the 181A is by far the worse meter I have looked at for robustness. Someone even showed that it was certified for the EMC 61326 standard. Funny is one hit of that stupid little piezo grill ignitor took it out. I showed one test report where the lab basically did not test the actual inputs to the meter and claimed it passed ESD. They only looked at the body of the meter. IMO, seeing tests ran like this, waters down the usefulness of the certs.
https://youtu.be/PjNXbKlr3MI?t=2866
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Isn't the Fluke 87V one of the worst meters on Joe's list?
In terms of electrical ruggedness, basically any meter that is independently CAT IV UL rated is going to be fine, and that includes the 87V even though it does poorly in Joe's tests.
That's not what I have been seeing. There are a few meters, like the 121GW that actually have performed quite poorly against my tests. In the case of the 121GW, I've explained the weak point and demonstrated one possible way to improve it. I suspect when/if the meter becomes available, I plan to run the released version and see if it repeats.
The AMPROBE AM530 is another meter that did not hold up very well. IMO, the worse was the Summit/TPI 194II.
If a meter can't out perform the AMPROBE AM510, IMO, it's not very robust. So far it does appear that the name brands, Brymen, Fluke, HIOKI have all done very well. I've ran a fair number of Flukes and the old 87V was the only flyer. I'm glad a I took the time to repeat the test with a new one and then went back and looked at the old one. It cements the fact the Fluke as much as I hate to admit it, makes some solid products.
The two AMPROBEs were made by UNI-T and both are certified. It's a bit strange and UNI-T makes a UT181A which someone pointed out is also certified. If that is true, the 181A is by far the worse meter I have looked at for robustness. Someone even showed that it was certified for the EMC 61326 standard. Funny is one hit of that stupid little piezo grill ignitor took it out. I showed one test report where the lab basically did not test the actual inputs to the meter and claimed it passed ESD. They only looked at the body of the meter. IMO, seeing tests ran like this, waters down the usefulness of the certs.
https://youtu.be/PjNXbKlr3MI?t=2866
Between the two of you I see a bit of confusion in how you are approaching the concept of "ruggedness": a meter that survives the tests can be seen as electrically rugged, but I can also see a meter that does not blow up in your face as physically/mechanically rugged as well. The latter is what CAT is all about (physical integrity under an electrical event).
In other words, your tests check the survivability rate, while CAT ratings are focused in the survivability of the operator. A certification agency will only go to the lengths required by the norm, not anywhere further (unless you pay up more).
That does not mean the testing companies are infallible - I know from experience they are not.
All that said, I would love to see the standards also cover the survivability, and that is one of the aspects your tests have become so succesful: it deals with a specification that goes beyond the datasheet.
One note: the peizo grill test outside of the case is required for electromagnetic immunity tests (EMI). Also, saying the UT181 follows "EMC 61326" only means it will not interfere with other equipments in its close range (electromagnetic compatibility).
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Yep. CAT rating is "this will not blow the shit out of you if you stay within the ratings" and "the ratings are roughly connected to where you are working on a supply" and that's it. There is no guarantee that the meter has to survive it, but merely fail safely under fault conditions.
Regardless you can still kill yourself in a thousand other interesting ways but at least the meter going woosh is one vector closed off here.
Edit: the BM867S just arrived. It's a monster
(https://i.imgur.com/Weo7t06.jpg)
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Why are they not showing the same value? Was Keysight adjusted to show the round value?
(I'm not a voltnut, but...)
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If you look closely I accidentally hit the hold button on the U1241C :palm: ... they're both in spec :)
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Congrats on the purchase, and I see what you mean about the Telonic price for the BM86xS being sharp! If I ever need another meter to add to the collection (Fluke 87V, 121GW plus a variety of chinese cheapies) then I'll be looking hard at the Brymen. Look forward to hearing any further thoughts on the monster.
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I will write something up when I get to play with it properly. So far been too busy :(
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No.
It has an unmatched long term record of reliability, accuracy, stability and ruggedness. And it has all the important features and none of the fluff.
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It's interesting how Brymen got their reputation up recent years. 3-5 years ago 87V would "win" over 869s hands down (by number of people suggesting it, I think it was this thread: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/if-brymen-bm869s-is-cheaper-and-as-good-why-people-would-still-buy-fluke/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/if-brymen-bm869s-is-cheaper-and-as-good-why-people-would-still-buy-fluke/)). Now it's (almost) the opposite.
I wonder if Brymen going to make any new model soon. I know that DMMs are not like smartphones, but still :)
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Fluke pricing is ridiculous here which is what kills me. An 87V is £576 from a non hooky seller.
The Brymen was £129. My U1241C was £285.
Reputation has been well earned by Brymen by having genuine certifiable ratings.
Humans don’t like their cheese being moved though which is why Fluke still do pretty well out of the low to mid range meters. High end handhelds they own for now.
Honestly though the amount of fucked up and broken 87V’s I see fly past on eBay where the thing has nearly cracked the casing and the display across makes me worry about the real robustness of them.
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Good reputation is more a proof that things used to be great in the past, than real metrics how are things being done now.
While good reputation has a meaning, it is not a guarantee that all is well now.
Many very reputable companies in past had a change in management, they went for "profit optimisation" and started making overpriced crap, milking reputation...
It is happening all the time. I'm not saying Fluke is like that. I'm just sayin I don't blindly believe to Tektronix, Keysight, Fluke..... (put your own list of "legendary companies" here...)
Fluke was pioneer of handhelds... 20 years ago... They are not anymore... Nobody is. That market developed and there are many choices. So pick your choice...
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Fluke pricing is ridiculous here which is what kills me. An 87V is £576 from a non hooky seller.
The Brymen was £129. My U1241C was £285.
Reputation has been well earned by Brymen by having genuine certifiable ratings.
Humans don’t like their cheese being moved though which is why Fluke still do pretty well out of the low to mid range meters. High end handhelds they own for now.
Honestly though the amount of fucked up and broken 87V’s I see fly past on eBay where the thing has nearly cracked the casing and the display across makes me worry about the real robustness of them.
Did you follow my advice and check the price of the 28 II (which is simply the ruggedized 87V)? As i said, in some places, like here in Switzerland, the 28 II actually costs less than the 87V!!
I think the smashed Flukes for sale reflect only that these are tools that actually get used in industry, and some small percentage get absolutely trashed. You don’t see lesser brands like that because they’re not trusted enough to ever get put in those environments!!
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Yeah it was fractionally less but still too expensive.
My U1241C is the beater. It’s fully ruggedised, IP67 etc. Purchase criteria for that was surviving a drop and being rained on when I’m playing with solar installation or fixing my POS car.
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For sure, I doubt many of us on here come close to actually needing the ruggedness of a fluke. I got myself my 87V not because I needed it, but because I’d lusted after a fluke since I was a little kid!
That said, I’ve come to trust it more than my Keysight (I have a U1252B): despite having identical fast peak specs, the fluke picks up much shorter transients (at least in DC amps) that the Keysight just misses. I forget what other oddness I’ve spotted in the Keysight, but in the end, I never doubt what I see on the fluke’s screen, but with the Keysight some doubt lingers.
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I know the feeling with the Keysight actually. I set it to 40 readings a second and the doubts went away for me fortunately :)
To note I’ve owned two 77’s, two 8024B’s, an 8050A, 8000A, 8010A as well over the years. I don’t dislike fluke but couldn’t justify the cost really.
Edit: used the new Brymen to debug some problems in a breadboard this evening. It’s damn fast.
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Between the two of you I see a bit of confusion in how you are approaching the concept of "ruggedness": a meter that survives the tests can be seen as electrically rugged, but I can also see a meter that does not blow up in your face as physically/mechanically rugged as well. The latter is what CAT is all about (physical integrity under an electrical event).
In other words, your tests check the survivability rate, while CAT ratings are focused in the survivability of the operator. A certification agency will only go to the lengths required by the norm, not anywhere further (unless you pay up more).
That does not mean the testing companies are infallible - I know from experience they are not.
All that said, I would love to see the standards also cover the survivability, and that is one of the aspects your tests have become so succesful: it deals with a specification that goes beyond the datasheet.
One note: the peizo grill test outside of the case is required for electromagnetic immunity tests (EMI). Also, saying the UT181 follows "EMC 61326" only means it will not interfere with other equipments in its close range (electromagnetic compatibility).
I assumed because Dave had specifically pointed out my testing, he knew what it was about. But you are correct, that may not be true.
Are you a involved with producing the standards in any way? Or perhaps a safety inspector? If not, do you at least have a copy of the standards? I've mentioned a few times about contacting various companies who design handhelds and their response's. I've mentioned to Dave that it would be great to have an expert interviewed where we could post our questions. Maybe you can fill that gap?
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It's interesting how Brymen got their reputation up recent years. 3-5 years ago 87V would "win" over 869s hands down (by number of people suggesting it, I think it was this thread: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/if-brymen-bm869s-is-cheaper-and-as-good-why-people-would-still-buy-fluke/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/if-brymen-bm869s-is-cheaper-and-as-good-why-people-would-still-buy-fluke/)). Now it's (almost) the opposite.
I wonder if Brymen going to make any new model soon. I know that DMMs are not like smartphones, but still :)
That's back when Lightages first told me about Brymen. I've been abusing them ever since. :-DD All that abuse made public may have contributed to the change in attitude.
Real question now is will the 121GW be left in the dust? I've got my rotary switch tester all ready to go.
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I know the feeling with the Keysight actually. I set it to 40 readings a second and the doubts went away for me fortunately :)
To note I’ve owned two 77’s, two 8024B’s, an 8050A, 8000A, 8010A as well over the years. I don’t dislike fluke but couldn’t justify the cost really.
Edit: used the new Brymen to debug some problems in a breadboard this evening. It’s damn fast.
Umm, are we talking about the same thing? I’m talking about the peak min-max hold. Both the 87V and the U1252B state 250 μs for repetitive events, 1ms for single events (that is, far, far higher than 40/sec). But the Fluke captured far larger current spikes in my testing, leading me to believe it’s reacting much faster, while the Keysight showed much smaller peaks, which I believe to be a bit closer to the average value, not the peak.