Anyone noticed that Rohde & Schwarz is blocking firmware informations / updates?

[KungFuJosh]

But as I mention, the more this becomes normalized, the more concerning it may be for them.

Perhaps. But I think that concern would make them have stricter licensing security, rather than locking up PDF user manuals.

Siglent locks up their higher end licensing much tighter than the less expensive stuff. They known damn well that a portion of their market are hobbyists/home users that want to hack their gear. They also know they would lose business if they made the licensing more strict for everything. None of that has inspired them to lock up any of their PDFs or firmware.

[Kean]

Yeah, restricting PDF manuals is insane - it will inevitably hurt sales.  But companies overreact sometimes.  Those making decision don't always understand the tech, and may not listen to those who do - at least until it hits the bottom line.

Regarding your second point, R&S are almost certainly better these days at licensing security than others.  They have a division that specializes in cybersecurity.

I think their earlier stuff wasn't as well protected, but having it on the second hand market and be hackable could hurt some sales.  I'm thinking for example a business or university with some older gear and some technical people willing to have a go could significantly extend the life of that gear and mean a lost or delayed sale.  That obviously doesn't apply when the gear needs to be properly maintained and kept calibrated, but that is not always the case.

[KungFuJosh]

Unless it's a school for hacking, I don't know if that's a realistic scenario. 😉

[tautech]

Yeah, restricting PDF manuals is insane - it will inevitably hurt sales.  But companies overreact sometimes.  Those making decision don't always understand the tech, and may not listen to those who do - at least until it hits the bottom line.

Regarding your second point, R&S are almost certainly better these days at licensing security than others.  They have a division that specializes in cybersecurity.

I think their earlier stuff wasn't as well protected, but having it on the second hand market and be hackable could hurt some sales.  I'm thinking for example a business or university with some older gear and some technical people willing to have a go could significantly extend the life of that gear and mean a lost or delayed sale.  That obviously doesn't apply when the gear needs to be properly maintained and kept calibrated, but that is not always the case.

Well consider this:

Many instruments offer BW upgrades as an option therefore what the instrument label may show does not match the Sys Info, be it hacked or via valid license upgrade.
Applies to business or hacked upgrades.

There is NOT a BW upgrade that cannot be hacked by dedicated individuals !

[2N3055]

This might be something as stupid as export control on cryptography (they use it), and some stupid sanctions control overreaction.
If they cannot control sales of actual equipment through 3rd parties, this way they show how they "try" to comply with export sanctions.

Hundred of thousands of Mercedes cars that ended up on "wrong side of wall" could not be teleported back. But they denied access to support software, spare parts etc.

R&S has major military/intelligence market, and  big military/government contracts are what they have been doing as primary market for years. Small business/ private customers are just a supplementary business, nice cream on the top.
If they had some complaints about export control by anybody (or even a hint that might be problem) they will protect their primary market.
R&S is a business.

And it probably makes sense to them.
I personally think it is not going to do anything to actually prevent any proliferation of equipment or any software/FW/manual data where they don't like, but I think they know that too. They do it to show effort was put in and that they try.

So small business/ private customers are going to have to either "beg" for "privilege" to have their equipment maintained properly, or switch to equipment that considers them their "real customer" and respects them properly.

But, don't worry. I expect that soon enough there will be web sites where all the newest R&S FW, manuals and the rest will be re-shared with free access..

[madires]

I would assume the reason is money. As a manufacturer you don't make any money when some hobbyist buys your products second-hand. Therefore you discourage them. And if the hobbyists want to buy a new device they can go a reseller who has to provide also the support. We don't want those pesky little hobbyists wasting our time and costing money.

[Aldo22]

I wonder why Mr. Paul Denisowski doesn't say anything?

[mikeselectricstuff]

So I have an account that allows access to some downloads including manuals and other software, but when I click on a firmware update or release note for the RTM3000 it takes me to a login page with a "404 no access" header.
At least it does show a release note.
What a mess.  Hopefully there will be a Senior R&S person at Electronica to  complain to

[Sorama]

I wonder why Mr. Paul Denisowski doesn't say anything?

I was wondering the same.

He probably/ for sure does not have a proper excuse. .

Maybe we should all stop buying R&S.
Such behavior is simply unacceptable.

[squadchannel]

I wonder why Mr. Paul Denisowski doesn't say anything?

he must be in perhaps the toughest position of all: middle management.

[2N3055]

I would assume the reason is money. As a manufacturer you don't make any money when some hobbyist buys your products second-hand. Therefore you discourage them. And if the hobbyists want to buy a new device they can go a reseller who has to provide also the support. We don't want those pesky little hobbyists wasting our time and costing money.

I highly doubt second hand sales concern them even a little bit. Those people would not be buying their new equipment at retail prices anyway..
It is either political or extortion scheme (like Altium)

[ebastler]

It is either political or extortion scheme (like Altium)

My guess is "consumer rights". I am not familiar with any legal details, but particularly in the EU there seem to be so many obligations when you sell to consumers, which either don't apply at all or can be negotiated in business-to-business relationships: Compulsory warranty, liability, localized manuals, WEEE electronic waste collection, etc. Life becomes easier when you can credibly show that you only cater to business customers. 

[robert.rozee]

My guess is "consumer rights". I am not familiar with any legal details, but particularly in the EU there seem to be so many obligations when you sell to consumers, which either don't apply at all or can be negotiated in business-to-business relationships: Compulsory warranty, liability, localized manuals, WEEE electronic waste collection, etc. Life becomes easier when you can credibly show that you only cater to business customers.

well, in this part of the world (NZ and Australia) the likes of R&S would be very unhappy campers! out consumer guarantee laws here dictate that the end consumer can choose to either go back to the retailer, or go back to the manufacturer - this choice is up to the consumer to decide upon. under the law products must "last well" and be "fit for purpose", and any attempt to limit a warranty to a specific fixed term simply does not apply. a manufacturer would be hard pushed to claim that where a firmware update exists that has fixed a bug, said firmware update could be withheld from the consumer.

the only way R&S/Keysight/etc could get around these liabilities is to remove all retail supply channels, and somehow figure out a way to stop 'business-to-business' purchasers from being able to on-sell products. perhaps going for a model where they only lease products to their business customers might work?


cheers,
rob   :-)

[xrunner]

I wonder why Mr. Paul Denisowski doesn't say anything?

he must be in perhaps the toughest position of all: middle management.

Daniel Bogdanoff hardly posts here any more, only to announce a new product. He used to do more, until Keysight decided to warn individuals/hobbyists they don't want their business like they did on their Ebay store. I just checked and it's still true. Keysight Terms of Sale attached.

Keysight Ebay Store

7. General

j.

Products are intended for professional and industrial use only, and
are not suitable for consumer or household use, and Customer
represents and warrants that it is not acquiring Products for such
uses. Consumer or household use, or use outside of the Specification
for the Product, will nullify Sections 2(a), (b) and (e), 4(a) and (b), 5(b)
and 6 of these Terms and void the warranty terms set out, or
incorporated in, Section 3

Note: Daniel is a nice person and a long time ago he helped me get some knobs ordered on the Keysight company system. I know he's in a tight spot with these kinds of terms.

[mikeselectricstuff]

At least with KS you can get FW updates just by entering fake details into the form & getting straight to a download link

[electr_peter]

At least with KS you can get FW updates just by entering fake details into the form & getting straight to a download link

With KS you can at least see the latest FW number on the website without any forms/logins and then decide to fill forms or login for download. With R&S, you have to login first to even see the latest FW number.

[rf-messkopf]

Note: Daniel is a nice person and a long time ago he helped me get some knobs ordered on the Keysight company system. I know he's in a tight spot with these kinds of terms.

This is also true for Rich and Paul from R&S. It is my hope that they both understand that all the whining and nagging going on here is not directed against them personally.

However, I would like to stress that I find R&S's policy on that matter unacceptable.

[cte]

It seems like the historic HAMEG service manuals have gone, too.

https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/hameg-archive/HM205-3_english.pdf  -> 404 

[Someone]

perhaps going for a model where they only lease products to their business customers might work?

Thats is where the market has been moving, Keysight already offer that on most "software" licenses.

[alonsojar]

After reading most of your comments I cannot find any good reason to hide us the basic information of the devices we own or we consider to purchase (not my case in a future).

Is there any secret contained in the user manuals or in a reference to the lastest firmware level available?
I honestly think that as customers we deserve that, and yes I said customers, because we bought R&S brand, not Farnell, Batronix or any other distributor. I accept that for a REAL service request we should go trough a partner, this is a common policy in many brands, but this last movement is unnecessary, irrespective and irritating imo.
J. Alonso

[m k]

Keysight Ebay Store

7. General

j.

This store has no inventory available in your location

[rf-messkopf]

Today I received the following email from news@rohde-schwarz.com:

Dear XXXXXXXXX,

Thank you for registering to access to the Rohde & Schwarz customer portal. The registration process is currently taking longer than usual due to ongoing system updates. Please rest assured that our team is working to process registrations as quickly as possible.

We truly appreciate your understanding and patience during this time of transition. If you have any immediate questions, please feel free to contact us.

Best regards,
Rohde & Schwarz Customer Support

Does that mean they still haven't made up their mind if I'm eligible for the premium content? Weird. Let's hope it all comes good.

[jjoonathan]

The "accept" box is still broken a week later. You can't check it without Inspect Element. I would guess that this is unintentional and another indicator that the whole matter is still mess rather than policy. There's hope!

Btw: customersupport@rohde-schwarz.com is in the trenches with sharepoint links doing their best to smooth it over. If you have R&S kit, better request these before the left hand and the right hand of R&S get on the same page about not wanting anything to do with you. I hope for better, of course, but I'd be a fool to assume it. Now is the time to hedge. Send an email and ask for the manuals and updates relevant to you while you can.

[mikeselectricstuff]

The "accept" box is still broken a week later.

As is the page it takes you to request access -it insisted I correct an incomplete postcode but can't enter anything in the box...

[Mr. Scram]

I would assume the reason is money. As a manufacturer you don't make any money when some hobbyist buys your products second-hand. Therefore you discourage them. And if the hobbyists want to buy a new device they can go a reseller who has to provide also the support. We don't want those pesky little hobbyists wasting our time and costing money.

A lot of hobbyists tinkering with the big boy equipment have day jobs where they also work with this kind of stuff. Pissing the hobbyists off just means pissing off part of your customer base. They'll just remember the company as troublesome and unreliable and pick another brand, because no company wants to deal with that.