EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
Products => Test Equipment => Topic started by: mzzj on March 25, 2015, 07:49:30 pm
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I just bought 2 of these cheaply without exactly knowing are they any good for anything ?
Is it usefull as a general purpose spectrum analyzer and rf generator or something else usefull? Or did I just buy 2 subjects for teardown videos |O :-DD
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When asking about an obscure device, it would be better to spell out the abbreviations.
I know "Rohde & Schwarz", but what does CRTU-RU spell out? Is it on the panel?
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When asking about an obscure device, it would be better to spell out the abbreviations.
I know "Rohde & Schwarz", but what does CRTU-RU spell out? Is it on the panel?
I know exactly as little as you what does CRTU spell for
"Universal Protocol Tester"
http://www.equipnet.com/auctions/rohde-and-schwarz-crtu-ru-universal-protocol-tester_listid_445615/ (http://www.equipnet.com/auctions/rohde-and-schwarz-crtu-ru-universal-protocol-tester_listid_445615/)
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I found the data sheet at this link:
http://www.mcs-testequipment.com/resources/Datasheets_Downloads/Rohde-Schwarz/CRTU%20Datasheet.PDF (http://www.mcs-testequipment.com/resources/Datasheets_Downloads/Rohde-Schwarz/CRTU%20Datasheet.PDF)
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Here's a spec sheet: http://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/CRTU_specs_en.pdf (http://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/CRTU_specs_en.pdf)
If you're into analysing 2G/3G networks then it's useful...
McBryce.
Edit: Oops, Tim was faster :)
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I just bought 2 of these cheaply without exactly knowing are they any good for anything ?
Well, the CRTU is a cell phone production tester, predominantly meant for automated testing. So that's what it is good for.
Is it usefull as a general purpose spectrum analyzer and rf generator or something else usefull? Or did I just buy 2 subjects for teardown videos |O :-DD
The CRTU uses the same modules as the R&S CMU200 (general purpose comms tester), and if I remember right it also supports the same basic functionality so you'd get a 100MHz to 2.7GHs Spectrum Analyzer, and depending on the options and activated licenses one or two RF generators, an audio generator and analyzer, and a Power Meter. However, (unlike the CMU200) the CRTU was made as an automated tester, so a lot depends on the activated software licenses on the particular unit.
BTW, should you consider selling one of these things then let me know (send me a PM). A CRTU would be a nice complement for my CMU200.
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Here's a spec sheet: http://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/CRTU_specs_en.pdf (http://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/CRTU_specs_en.pdf)
If you're into analysing 2G/3G networks then it's useful...
McBryce.
Edit: Oops, Tim was faster :)
I was also able to find the basic datasheet but its kind of vague about how usefull this is for anything else than cellular 2G/3G stuff. A proper manual would be great.
Based on this http://www.helmut-singer.de/stock/-1871243771.html (http://www.helmut-singer.de/stock/-1871243771.html) I am hopefully getting a RF signal generator and somehow usable spectrum analyzer.
Wuerstchenhund: Thats what I questimated based on the info that CRMU is somewhat newer version of the CMU200. Feel free to make a reasonable offer after I fiqure out what options(if any) I have got in my units.
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I was also able to find the basic datasheet but its kind of vague about how usefull this is for anything else than cellular 2G/3G stuff. A proper manual would be great.
For a lot of R&S kit getting manuals and software require an service account (GLORIS) with R&S unfortunately.
Based on this http://www.helmut-singer.de/stock/-1871243771.html (http://www.helmut-singer.de/stock/-1871243771.html) I am hopefully getting a RF signal generator and somehow usable spectrum analyzer.
Typical HS, they're asking 10 EUR grand for it. I do wonder who actually pays their insane prices. Madness.
But hey, you could ask them if they buy yours for EUR8k. Must be a bargain for them ;)
Wuerstchenhund: Thats what I questimated based on the info that CRMU is somewhat newer version of the CMU200.
Well, it isn't, really. Both CMU200 and CRTU were made for different purposes. The CMU200 was designed as an universal comms tester for various cell phone standards (GSM, CDMA, W-CDMA, UMTS/HSDPA, EV-DO) as well as Bluetooth, for both lab and production use, and also with general (non cell phone testing) applications in mind.
The CRTU on the other hand was designed as an automated test platform for cell phone production. While the CMU200 could be used for the same task, automated testing with the CMU200 requires an external computer as test controller. The CRTU doesn't as it comes with a built-in Windows2000 PC. On the other side, the CRTU is very limited in its capabilities, and doesn't support everything the CMU200 does.
There are various variants of the CRTU. In general, the -PU are the Protocol Analyzers (focussing on the logical level) and the -RU are the Radio Controllers (dealing with the RF part). The chassis is essentially the same as the CMU200 chassis, with the exception of the righthand front where the CMU200 has some Sub-D connectors and a speaker while the CRTU has three N connectors for the built-in power divider. There also are some differences on the rear connector panel.
The fact that the CRTU was primarily designed for automated cell phone testing shows in several areas (i.e. the CRTU can only act as a Base Station while the CMU can act as Base Station and as terminal/receiver). Also, for the CMU200, most optional functionality is enabled when the required hardware module is installed, while the CRTU requires additional software licenses. I'm not sure if this also affects the Basic Functionality (Spec An, RF generator etc), or if this functionality is even available in the CRTU. But I do know that the CRTU only supports a subset of functionality of the CMU200.
The original CMU200 (with FMR5 controller with AMD K5 processor and with PS/2 keyboard interface) was introduced in 1999 and the CRTU in 2002. Both were supported until around 2010 when they were replaced by the current CMW500.
Feel free to make a reasonable offer after I fiqure out what options(if any) I have got in my units.
Sure. Send me a PM over the forum when you get the units.
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https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Rohde_Schwarz/conversations/messages/407
"if you are limited in space consider the CRTU-RU, those units are part of a protocol analyzer System for GSM/WCDMA but contain a full featured spectrumanalyzer, a signal generator and powermeter from 10-2700MHz , the unit can "eat " up to 50W , the signal generator can output from
-10 to -130dBm and offers AM and SSB modulation as well as frequency hopping !
those units are recently hitting the surplus auctions for about $1000 or less and you can expect to see those on ebay soon !"
Oh boy, now I am exited ;)
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You know you're stuff about these Wuerstchenhund, I assume you work in this field or are you just a very enthusiastic collector?
McBryce.
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SSB modulation on a cellphone tester? That just seems... weird :-//
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We had a CMU-200 that had a dead screen; fixed it by replacing an inductor on the back-light power supply that had blown open.
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the crtu is supposedly a cmu with the added sig gen and spectrum analyser. I imagine it's the 'front end' of a signalling/physical layer testing system that can perform typical 2G/3G specification tests fully automatic (i.e. the signalling unit connected to the crtu is calling test sequences incorporated in the crtu). You can probably not use any of the test functions but it should be a very usable signal generator and basic spectrum analyser with specs good enough to demodulate the modern digital mobile communication standards, and with a little luck it will have an I/Q interface that can connect to other signal analysers.
I don't dare to guess about the spectrum analyser capability, usually they're quite tailored to the relevant frequency bands but wcdma etc use quite wide bandwidth, plus it's R&S so probably good quality.
EDIT: the few specs found in datasheets are nice, it has a good ocxo (as expected from base station quality instruments). Sig gen is 100 kHz-2.7GHz in 0.1 Hz steps and 400µs settling time for jumps of 1 kHz, nice output repeatability and level settling time.
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SSB modulation on a cellphone tester? That just seems... weird :-//
The original analog cellular telephones used SSB, which is generally the most bandwidth-efficient analog modulation.
The later protocols are digital.
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SSB modulation on a cellphone tester? That just seems... weird :-//
The original analog cellular telephones used SSB, which is generally the most bandwidth-efficient analog modulation.
The later protocols are digital.
Really? Maybe in the US but I would be surprised. Here in EU I have never seen that, before we switched to GSM it was NBFM modulated.
Do you have any links to that?
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Had a quick look at the stuff from Nokia... and I guess those who are into RF in Finland had a blast...
Wish I have had a chance to bid, and pick up the stuff... I am sure with that volume of sales things were going really cheap!
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I stand corrected: the original analog systems were FM. However, SSB communication is used in other systems such as marine radio which might use this test equipment.
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I am sure with that volume of sales things were going really cheap!
Not really. See https://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/auction-%28finland%29-rf-test-gear-end-of-march/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/auction-%28finland%29-rf-test-gear-end-of-march/) for comments.
Many items went skyrocket high prices like piece of crap old tektronics TDS220 scopes for 600 euros! Total madness. I wouldn't pay more than 60 euros for those :o
Some RF stuff went for pocket change but anything known to be usefull was expensive unless you were lucky with the buggy timeoutting POS auction website and others were not able to bid on your items when the server was overloaded :-DD
CRTU-RU "mystery boxes" went for 50 to 200 euros per piece, time will tell if its expensive thursday teardown or really cheap 2.7Ghz spectrum analyzer+rf generator
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I got a few of the CRTUs from the lot. One will be experiencing a full teardown and the results will be posted here as soon as I get the victim in the lab!
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He, seems eevblog bidfest was on the CRTU-RUs. I bought 8 of them (and accidentally a single -PU). (Stupid auctions all ended at the same time; paid between 42 and 104 EUR, but shipping will be another ~500 EUR total)
My hope is that I can get the I/Q output (CRTU-B7), but mine are apparently missing the option for it. I wonder what else the output to the PU is, if not I/Q. Does someone know? Is it a non-zero IF instead? Also, what's the bandwidth for the RX and TX path?
If the hardware does what it promises, I'm good. If the default software doesn't do it - I'm sure we can get enough critical mass here to maybe develop a custom software for it ("how hard can it be" - famous last words) that is more hacker-friendly.
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If the hardware does what it promises, I'm good. If the default software doesn't do it - I'm sure we can get enough critical mass here to maybe develop a custom software for it ("how hard can it be" - famous last words) that is more hacker-friendly.
Good luck with that. If I remember right the basic software runs on MsDOS 6.22 (yes, really!), the Windows part is only for automated testing. And even the DOS software doesn't do much as all functionality sits in proprietary custom DSPs with R&S IP in their cores.
I also wouldn't count on R&S just sitting there and observing any hacking attemps like Rigol and Siglent.
If you want a cheap hack-able Spectrum Analyzer/Signal Generator/Network Analyzer then have a look at the Agilent E7495A/B which runs Linux. Does less in terms of cell phone testing but the Spectrum Analyzer is better than the one in the R&S CRTU, and the Network Analyzer part isn't bad, too.
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There's a chart of differing cellphone standards here
http://www.rfcafe.com/references/electrical/wireless-comm-specs.htm (http://www.rfcafe.com/references/electrical/wireless-comm-specs.htm)
Unfortunately the only main thing missing is the modulation scheme, however I'm fairly certain that AMPS, the American Mobile Phone Standard used FM.
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I also wouldn't count on R&S just sitting there and observing any hacking attemps like Rigol and Siglent.
It's a 2G/3G test device, more or less passed it's sell-by-date, I doubt R&S really care that much unless of course their current products use the same modules and would be also instantly hackable with the same method.
McBryce.
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R&S support is generally very friendly and helpful and even helps buyers of second hand gear, hams and so on (R&S is most certainly NOT part of the Servicewüste Deutschland [service wasteland Germany]). So there might be a chance that they unlock certain software features for you...
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I also wouldn't count on R&S just sitting there and observing any hacking attemps like Rigol and Siglent.
It's a 2G/3G test device, more or less passed it's sell-by-date, I doubt R&S really care that much unless of course their current products use the same modules and would be also instantly hackable with the same method.
As both CRTU and CMU200 are still supported and updates/licenses are still sold I'm pretty sure R&S will care. The CRTU isn't that attractive but the CMU200s are still widely used and in demand, especially with the W-CDMA/HSDPA/HSUPA and Bluetooth options and the High Stability Reference OXCO (option -B12).
You'll find that the CMU200 (along with Agilent's E5515C/E) is still the to-go tester in lots of labs world-wide for everything cell phone related which isn't 4G. It's only now that they start to appear on the second hand market in larger numbers, but most of these units are the older (1st gen with FMR5 controller and PS/2 keyboard port) ones which usually only come with basic GSM or CDMA. Getting a second gen CMU200 (with FMR6 controller with Celeron and USB ports) with W-CDMA/HSDPA/HSUPA, Bluetooth and -B12 OCXO can still set you back >$10k.
R&S support is generally very friendly and helpful and even helps buyers of second hand gear, hams and so on (R&S is most certainly NOT part of the Servicewüste Deutschland [service wasteland Germany]). So there might be a chance that they unlock certain software features for you...
Yes, for gear that is no longer supported. I wouldn't bet on that they are so forthcoming for kit that is still supported and for which upgrades and software are still sold. Attitudes change quickly when it affects the bottom line.
BTW, I checked R&S GLORIS, and unlike for the CMU200 (for which software updates and manuals are available) there doesn't seem to be anything for the CRTU. WHich, considering that the CRTU was sold as a complete test solution and not as individual instrument, isn't surprising.
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I don't find it problematic that the unit supposedly uses a DOS based thing to run signalling/layer/basestation specific operations. There is no need for a UI in that regard since the user is not punching in those commands on the front panel of the device anyway. Anite and HP equivalent machines run just the same, you send AT commands to cell phones - it's what those devices use *shrug*
All those test cases are well defined by the European standards. Basic instrument functions will surely be available via the front panel, no DOS needed.
I also don't quite understand what anyone would want to achieve by "hacking" the unit. To what purpose? (for fun maybe)
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I don't find it problematic that the unit supposedly uses a DOS based thing to run signalling/layer/basestation specific operations. There is no need for a UI in that regard since the user is not punching in those commands on the front panel of the device anyway.
There is an UI (running on DOS) because the user still has to make configurations for the test environment and at some point also might want to read some test results or measurements, and especially on the CMU200 yes, the user is using the UI to set up the various tests (on the CRTU the automated tests are configured on the device under Windows2000).
But yes, DOS isn't an issue because it only runs the UI anyways, all the work is done by individual DSPs in the various modules. The only problem is with units with FMR5 controllers (with AMD K5 processor) which impact the measurement performance. Later models with FMR6 (intel Celeron) or FMR7 (intel Celeron M) don't have these problems.
Anite and HP equivalent machines run just the same
No, not really. For example, the HP/Agilent/Keysight E5515 (aka 8960 Series 10) runs VxWorks. Again with a very versatile UI.
I don't know what OS the Anritsu testers use but they also come with an (ugly) UI.
I also don't quite understand what anyone would want to achieve by "hacking" the unit. To what purpose? (for fun maybe)
I assume the intention was to crack the software so that non-licensed functionality could be activated, or to replace the R&S software with something else that makes the CRTU into a normal test instrument.
Neither of them are viable routes in my opinion.
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There's little information on the CRTU-RU out there; I can't wait to see a teardown. For the CMU 200, it's a bit better, but I don't know how much of the architecture they share.
Here's the service manual for the CMU200: https://www.ntecusa.com/docs/RS_CMU200_CMU300_other.pdf (https://www.ntecusa.com/docs/RS_CMU200_CMU300_other.pdf) ; section 3 has a block diagram. If we compare this with the "block diagram" in http://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_news_from_rs/magazin/Neues171_englisch_72dpi.pdf (http://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_news_from_rs/magazin/Neues171_englisch_72dpi.pdf) (which also claims that the CRTU-RU uses the same RF components as the CMU200), then we can draw the following conclusions:
- The CRTU-RU is basically a two-channel (2x RX, 2x TX) CMU200.
- Each channel features a fully tunable 10MHz-2.7GHz receiver/transmitter, working on a 10.7MHz (RX) / 13.85MHz (TX) IF. Not sure what the baseband bandwidth eventually is.
- But it gets better; on the "digital board", there's an ADC/DAC stage already. Everything further works on this digital data. (There's an optional hook for the I/Q analog data with the option CRTU-B7; it appears that it contains a separate DAC to get the digital I/Q RX back to analog, and just passes through the TX I/Q via a switch.)
- It's a bit unclear whether the "link handler" is part of the CRTU-RU or CRTU-PU; in the latter case, it'd mean that the digitalized data would be already available on an external port.
(I'm not sure how the spectrum analyzer fits into this. The CMU200 _does_ appear to have the spectrum analyzer and signal generator ability; not sure why this is commonly mentioned as a difference to the CRTU-RU. It's probably just a power detector on the .. digital board?)
I think this device is promising. Tapping the ADC data, and injecting the DAC data (for example via USB) would be an interesting extension to build; together with a plugin to gnuradio, this should make a wonderful RF frontend for SDR. Only limitation could the bandwidth.
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There's little information on the CRTU-RU out there; I can't wait to see a teardown. For the CMU 200, it's a bit better, but I don't know how much of the architecture they share.
As I wrote before, they share almost everything. The CRTU *is* a CMU200 with an additional Windows 2000 controller, a slightly different chassis (CRTU has additional RF ports where the CMU200 has 9pin Sub-Ds and a speaker) and different software. The CRTU also doesn't support all the options that the CMU200 supports (i.e. Audio Analyzer).
Here's the service manual for the CMU200: https://www.ntecusa.com/docs/RS_CMU200_CMU300_other.pdf (https://www.ntecusa.com/docs/RS_CMU200_CMU300_other.pdf) ; section 3 has a block diagram. If we compare this with the "block diagram" in http://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_news_from_rs/magazin/Neues171_englisch_72dpi.pdf (http://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_news_from_rs/magazin/Neues171_englisch_72dpi.pdf) (which also claims that the CRTU-RU uses the same RF components as the CMU200), then we can draw the following conclusions:
- The CRTU-RU is basically a two-channel (2x RX, 2x TX) CMU200.
Not really. Both CRTU and CMU200 can have one or two RF generators, as well as an optional two-channel audio generator. As I said, there's not much difference between them in terms of hardware, aside from some options not being available in the CRTU.
There's also a difference in bandwidth with the second generator, depening on which option is installed.
- But it gets better; on the "digital board", there's an ADC/DAC stage already. Everything further works on this digital data. (There's an optional hook for the I/Q analog data with the option CRTU-B7; it appears that it contains a separate DAC to get the digital I/Q RX back to analog, and just passes through the TX I/Q via a switch.)
- It's a bit unclear whether the "link handler" is part of the CRTU-RU or CRTU-PU; in the latter case, it'd mean that the digitalized data would be already available on an external port.
If I remember right all CRTUs have the digital output at the back, which is meant when they are part of the Protocol Analyzer (a separate large box with a DVD drive on the front).
(I'm not sure how the spectrum analyzer fits into this. The CMU200 _does_ appear to have the spectrum analyzer and signal generator ability; not sure why this is commonly mentioned as a difference to the CRTU-RU. It's probably just a power detector on the .. digital board?)
No, it's not. The spectrum analyzer is a Vector Spectrum Analyzer, i.e. no detector diode but an ADC that digitizes the whole frequency band and gets the individual frequency components via FFT. SA performance is quite good, it's pretty fast, although the sensitivity is pretty low.
And yes, all CMU200 have the Spectrum Analyzer, it's part of the Basic Functionality that comes with every unit. The same is true for the Power Meter btw. The difference to the CRTU is the software, and (if I remember right) the Spectrum Analyzer and Power Meter functionality wasn't available on the CRTU (which would be understandable, since the CRTU was designed as automated test system). But I haven't had that much to do with the CRTU, so I might be wrong on that.
I think this device is promising. Tapping the ADC data, and injecting the DAC data (for example via USB) would be an interesting extension to build; together with a plugin to gnuradio, this should make a wonderful RF frontend for SDR. Only limitation could the bandwidth.
Good luck. I'd say your're severely underestimating how complex these devices really are. For example, I'm pretty sure the ADC data isn't directly available from outside, but only via the proprietary DSPs which in turn connect to the backplane via an old-style 16bit ISA bus. You could of course connect directly to the ADC on the PCB but this will result in the unit failing during initialization (and probably powering down the module). There's also the mechanical component, as you would have to lead wires into the Digital Module which is a completely encapsulated unit with two small openings to provide sufficient airflow. In terms of SDR, the internal controllers in these devices are pretty slow (well, they don't need to be very fast for what they're doing) so that means you would have to use an external PC, for which you would have to design a suitable interface (the available GPIB and serial ports are too slow, and the optional network ports are for feeding IP data into the cell phone transmitter, not for communication with the system's controller). In short, it sounds like a mess and a very good way to produce a nice doorstop. Which would really be a shame.
If you want a RF front end for an SDR go and buy a $7 USB digital TV tuner, or any other of the wide range of suitable devices.[/list]
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And yes, all CMU200 have the Spectrum Analyzer, it's part of the Basic Functionality that comes with every unit. The same is true for the Power Meter btw. The difference to the CRTU is the software, and (if I remember right) the Spectrum Analyzer and Power Meter functionality wasn't available on the CRTU (which would be understandable, since the CRTU was designed as automated test system). But I haven't had that much to do with the CRTU, so I might be wrong on that.
I did some googling around before buying anything and judging by the pictures it appears that at least some if not every of the CRTU-RU's have spectrum displays.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/R-S-Rohde-Schwarz-Universal-Protocol-Radio-Communication-Analyser-Tester-CRTU-RU-/321539373898 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/R-S-Rohde-Schwarz-Universal-Protocol-Radio-Communication-Analyser-Tester-CRTU-RU-/321539373898) (last pic or so)
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I did some googling around before buying anything and judging by the pictures it appears that at least some if not every of the CRTU-RU's have spectrum displays.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/R-S-Rohde-Schwarz-Universal-Protocol-Radio-Communication-Analyser-Tester-CRTU-RU-/321539373898 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/R-S-Rohde-Schwarz-Universal-Protocol-Radio-Communication-Analyser-Tester-CRTU-RU-/321539373898) (last pic or so)
I guess we'll only find out when people get the CRTUs they bought and (hopefully) report back.
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Hi,
I bought quite a few CRTUs with the hope of getting at least a few with IQ options. The current plan is that I should receive a shipment next this week Wednesday/Thursday, so I would like to announce that anybody who is interested will be welcome to participate the teardown. The current plan is next Thursday in Innopoli. Send me a PM with contact information if you'd like to participate!
-- mikko
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I bought quite a few CRTUs with the hope of getting at least a few with IQ options.
I doubt there are many CRTUs out there which have the I/Q option (-B7), as these were mostly used as production testers. And if I remember right, the I/Q option for the CRTU is different than the one for the CMU200 (which can often found on ebay).
The current plan is that I should receive a shipment next this week Wednesday/Thursday, so I would like to announce that anybody who is interested will be welcome to participate the teardown. The current plan is next Thursday in Innopoli. Send me a PM with contact information if you'd like to participate!
Just a reminder to those that bought the CRTUs and want to sell some on, I might be interested to buy one from you if the price is right ;)
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CRTU-G (GSM) come without -B7, as they use the internal baseband signal processing. CRTU-W (WCDMA aka. UMTS), which use the external CRTU-PU box to do baseband signal processing, should have -B7 installed. (That is my understanding, at least.)
mjs, Finland unfortunately is a bit far away, but I can't wait for pictures.
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The batch was received today. I took two pieces to home. The -W (which should have B7 IQ-I/O) has at least dead screen. The -S model does have signal generator and spectrum analyzer. It had some problems with locking the reference, but that might be due to moving from +5 outside to +22°C inside and not waiting or missing 10MHz reference cable. More information will follow.
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The batch was received today. I took two pieces to home. The -W (which should have B7 IQ-I/O) has at least dead screen. The -S model does have signal generator and spectrum analyzer. It had some problems with locking the reference, but that might be due to moving from +5 outside to +22°C inside and not waiting or missing 10MHz reference cable. More information will follow.
Did yours have password login for the win2000?
I tried one of mine and got stuck with the password.
Also had to use external monitor because integrated display was switched off at the end of the boot-up. (worked ok until login screen)
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OK,
-selected dos application in the boot menu and got pretty much 100% CMU200-like GUI with spectrum analyzer and rf-gen functionalities.
-windows applications total mystery, need to get vga cable to connect external monitor and start working with the win2k passwords....
-no luck with B7 IF/IQ option
I bet the machine wont boot from usb drive so probably need to remove the hard drive and reset win2k passwords using another computer (goddammit, need some old clunker with pata drive support...)
And I wonder is there something usefull on the windows side...
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https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/93888484/2015-04-16%2001.48.23.jpg(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/93888484/2015-04-16%2001.48.23.jpg)
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I did not yet boot to Win2000 and none of the units had a password sticker on them.
The reference locking problem was due to external reference setting and went away after warmup and swithing to internal reference from the menu.
Attached a picture of a 1GHz AM-modulated signal with 5kHz/10Hz span/RBW.
I think the B7 IQ-option can be recognized from the existence of top row IF connectors, as they're wired to the B7 unit and the cables+connectors are part of the option.
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I bet the machine wont boot from usb drive
It should. Check the installed options list, at the bottom it should tell you what controller is installed. I think all CRTUs have at least FMR6 controllers (with intel Celeron) and these can boot from USB drive/CDROM if you change the boot sequence in the BIOS.
The Windows2000 partition merely contains the software for automated cell phone testing, and for general purpose is probably rather useless.
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I also obtained a few CRTU-RUs and CMU200s from the auction.
CRTU-RUs when booted to DOS work very similar to CMU200 for basic signal analyzer / rf-gen and power metering as mentioned.
One of my units has a Win2k password, the other doesn't and I can get to the desktop. However it seems like most of the software has been on a shared network drive in the lab... power metering and input assignment utilities work on Win2k side but other than that I couldn't get anything useful out of it without starting to write test cases.
I will definitely see if it can boot linux when I have the time and when I get it running will report on what hardware is seen.
The built-in screen on the unit blacks out when Win2k boots and there is a resolution larger than 640x480 set for the desktop. I was able to just change the resolution to 640x480 and the integrated display popped back on.
My boxes are very low on options unfortunately.. no IQ I/F for me either. :P
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I also obtained a few CRTU-RUs and CMU200s from the auction.
CRTU-RUs when booted to DOS work very similar to CMU200 for basic signal analyzer / rf-gen and power metering as mentioned.
Did your CRTUs come with one or two RF generators installed?
I will definitely see if it can boot linux when I have the time and when I get it running will report on what hardware is seen.
Linux should run, but it won't be of much use as all functionality sits in proprietary R&S ASICs for which no Linux drivers exist (the PC in these boxes is really just for displaying data). All you'll get is a slow Pentium3 Celeron Linux PC with a tiny display ;)
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Did your CRTUs come with one or two RF generators installed?
I don't have them here but I recall them having only one generator.
Linux should run, but it won't be of much use as all functionality sits in proprietary R&S ASICs for which no Linux drivers exist (the PC in these boxes is really just for displaying data). All you'll get is a slow Pentium3 Celeron Linux PC with a tiny display ;)
Well that's the fun part, mucking about.. do you know how are the ASICs connected to the pc? PCI bus probably?
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Well that's the fun part, mucking about.. do you know how are the ASICs connected to the pc? PCI bus probably?
No PCI, it's 16bit ISA.
R&S used ISA in pretty much all their PC controlled instruments until a few years ago.
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I picked one of these up. It appears to have Spectrum analyzer functionality from 10MHz (see attached). I've not had much of a chance to play with it yet but will report back when I do...
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What is the maximum span of the SA? I'm not familiar with these particular units, but some analysers designed primarily for cellular only have limited span on their SAs, perhaps a few MHz, allowing good narrow band analysis, but of limited practical use if you're after a wider analysis such as looking for spurii, harmonics or mixing products.
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What is the maximum span of the SA? I'm not familiar with these particular units, but some analysers designed primarily for cellular only have limited span on their SAs, perhaps a few MHz, allowing good narrow band analysis, but of limited practical use if you're after a wider analysis such as looking for spurii, harmonics or mixing products.
10-2700Mhz
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I can't see any limit on the span.
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What is the maximum span of the SA? I'm not familiar with these particular units, but some analysers designed primarily for cellular only have limited span on their SAs, perhaps a few MHz, allowing good narrow band analysis, but of limited practical use if you're after a wider analysis such as looking for spurii, harmonics or mixing products.
Not these units, the CMU200 (and the CRTU apparently) support a span from 0 to full bandwidth (2.69GHz) and RBW from 10Hz to 1MHz in 1-2-3-5 stepping. Since they are VSAs there's no VBW setting.
The SA part in these units is actually quite good (especially when compared with many other wireless testers), not high end lab grade standalone SA good (and the noise level is quite high) but more than good enough for a lot of simple RF work or for getting a first start in RF.
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I had a brief play with the CMU200 spec ana last night. Works ok and from the brief test I did with it then I'd guess it is somewhere between an Agilent 8594 and an 8564.
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Out of 14 units 4 were non-operational and only 2 had the IQ units and of those one was dead. I hope to get that up and running by switching modules from the non-operational ones. Some of the non-operational ones booted to Win2000 directly, but I hope to re-image the HDDs.
And here are the pictures (CRTU-G), without any comments at the moment:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/xxf8h9d09yxxck3/AADl0nlbyKoyAAnRsjtPZwU4a?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/sh/xxf8h9d09yxxck3/AADl0nlbyKoyAAnRsjtPZwU4a?dl=0)
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Out of 14 units 4 were non-operational and only 2 had the IQ units and of those one was dead. I hope to get that up and running by switching modules from the non-operational ones.
That's unfortunate. If its completely dead then it could be the PSU, as this was the part that failed most often in the CMU200 (and therefore probably also in the CRTU). Not that the overall failure rate was high, though, but from the few defects I've seen with these units a large part was due to a dead PSU.
Some of the non-operational ones booted to Win2000 directly, but I hope to re-image the HDDs.
The good thing with R&S kit like this is that, unlike with most test instruments made by other manufacturers, the calibration data is stored in an EEPROM in the individual modules and not on the hard disk, which means that the disks contain no hardware-specific data, and can be moved around freely between devices of similar type.
Also, the software unlocks work by software install, not by hardware, so the unlocked options move with the hard disk into another device.
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mjs, nice photos! Thank you very much! Could you maybe provider a better quality / higher resolution picture of the diagram (IMG_0896.jpg)?
For the CRTU-G, I was expecting a digital (or analog?) connection between slot A7 (digital board) and A6/A8 (CRTU-USU/CRTU-B5, the GSM signalling units). I can't see that in the pictures, but maybe I didn't look good enough. Any clue where/what that may be?
Also, what's the RJ45 (yeayeah 8P8C) cable that goes from one of the USUs to the frontpanel(?)?
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Out of 14 units 4 were non-operational and only 2 had the IQ units and of those one was dead. I hope to get that up and running by switching modules from the non-operational ones. Some of the non-operational ones booted to Win2000 directly, but I hope to re-image the HDDs.
And here are the pictures (CRTU-G), without any comments at the moment:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/xxf8h9d09yxxck3/AADl0nlbyKoyAAnRsjtPZwU4a?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/sh/xxf8h9d09yxxck3/AADl0nlbyKoyAAnRsjtPZwU4a?dl=0)
Advanced Engineering Mathematics by Stroud, blimey is that still THE text? I finally threw out my 30 year old copy last year.
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Advanced Engineering Mathematics by Stroud, blimey is that still THE text? I finally threw out my 30 year old copy last year.
That looks more like Kreysig than Stroud. I've still got my Kreysig, mostly for posterity rather than practicality, I can't remember the last time I looked at it.
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The diagram is just wiring picture. I think we did not yet open up the digital board (A7, see p5 in http://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_news_from_rs/magazin/Neues171_englisch_72dpi.pdf (http://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_news_from_rs/magazin/Neues171_englisch_72dpi.pdf)) , where the coaxes from the RF board end up to. I believe the connection from there to link handler is digital in the backplane.
More pictures of the boards: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/zgwzbpt91o9p1it/AACC-1YIhZs6Y-2iTAEGV1kCa?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/sh/zgwzbpt91o9p1it/AACC-1YIhZs6Y-2iTAEGV1kCa?dl=0)
The book is Kreyszig, used it last time 4 years ago to recall some matrix calculations.
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Advanced Engineering Mathematics by Stroud, blimey is that still THE text? I finally threw out my 30 year old copy last year.
That looks more like Kreysig than Stroud. I've still got my Kreysig, mostly for posterity rather than practicality, I can't remember the last time I looked at it.
I stand corrected! Both Stoud and Kreyszig were indeed both favoured texts. One was favoured by the profs at my alma mater, the other by the students, can't remember which way around it was though.
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I received my units now. FWIW, on the HDD I found documentation (including a service manual, yay, though it's not ultra specific), and also drive images should I ever have to restore the HDD.
What I'm slightly unclear on is the I/Q IN/OUT CH1/CH2 connectors on the back. They are present even without Option B7. Do they actually work? What's the difference between them, and the BNC connectors that Option B7 adds? For the BNC connectors, the manual is always very clear that they are only present with B7. For the IQ IN/OUT, there is no such designation.
mjs, did you follow the connection for these connectors? I can't see them either in the service manual nor in the wiring diagram inside the device. I haven't yet fully disassembled mine (but I'll do so if required).
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On both of the units with the IQ interface, the top row IF connectors are present. I did not trace the DB15 IQ connectors, which are present on all units.My guess is that they're routed on the main board.
Since the system works using IF between the RF and digital boards, my guess is that the IQ signals are not available anywhere without the B7 option. The IF signals could be easily extracted from the internal coax cables, though.
I've got the unit almost completely in parts save for the PSU and main board (and casing around the BNC connectors), so just let me know if there is a specific part you'd like to get hires photos from!
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Didn't manage to boot my CRTU's from usb stick so I transplanted hdd to old laptop that was willing to boot from usb.
Nothing much intresting so far on win2k side like others already fiqured out.
Used http://pogostick.net/~pnh/ntpasswd/ (http://pogostick.net/~pnh/ntpasswd/) to reset windows passwords. Now copying documentation and drive images for backup.
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By the way, if you have the two CRTU-USU installed (i.e. CRTU-G, not -W), one of them (the one with the Network cable) comes with a little surprise - telnet 10.20.30.40 from the Windows installation. :)
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Indeed, there's a penguin inside!
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It seems that some of the units have CMU and some CRTU software. The units with 'Universal Radio Communication Tester CMU' splash screen seem to have FM and DSB modulation in addition to AM+SSB. (Tested with just two units, though).
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Interesting; though the unit I tested shows indeed the CMU screen, but still doesn't have FM+DSB.
Is this also software V3.23? All my units have that, not sure if there is any other. Does it have any other FGROUPs than AUDIO, CRTU-RU, GSM, RF? (Press alt-F4, then go into "FGROUP" directory). Otherwise, maybe it's a software option?
By the way, should the CRTU-RU, in DOS OPSW, support any GSM signalling tests? Only the non-signalling ones show up here.
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The DSB+FM may have something to do with the B7 IQ interface; the next unit that had the CMU splash screen with B5+B6 GSM signaling did not have those. I'll check the FGROUPs tomorrow. I've only seen non-signalling references in the DOS OPSW.
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The DSB+FM may have something to do with the B7 IQ interface
DSB+FM modulation has nothing to do with the I/Q option.
Interesting; though the unit I tested shows indeed the CMU screen, but still doesn't have FM+DSB.
Is this also software V3.23?
Software 3.23 is pretty ancient, the current version is 5.21, and between 3.x and 4.x a lot of functionality was added, which if I remember right includes DSB+FM modulation (which does work with 4.x).
By the way, should the CRTU-RU, in DOS OPSW, support any GSM signalling tests? Only the non-signalling ones show up here.
All CRTUs support Signalling Tests in DOS mode, however most of them don't have the necessary licenses (because Signalling is done under Windows).
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Wuerstchenhund,
the non-working signalling tests under DOS are not a limit of the license, but are caused by the CRTU-USU not being supported (at least in 4.35; I haven't tried anything newer) as a link handler. The "2G_Signalling" feature (that enables the signalling tests) requires CMU-B21Var02 or CMU-B54Var14 to be present; the CRTU-B5* is not sufficient.
Or have you ever seen a CRTU with the signalling features enabled? If so, I'd be curious about the hardware/software configuration.
And yes, DSB+FM was added in 4.x; it's unrelated to the IQ board. However, the reason why most of the non-B7 equipped CRTUs ship with V3.23 is that the Windows-based software isn't compatible with DOS OPSW > 4.0. While it doesn't use any of the DOS components, it relies on the firmware of the various boards having a specific version. (The firmware is updated together with the DOS OPSW; i.e. if you switch from V3.23 to something else, the board firmwares get updated to a version that's incompatible with the signalling tests in windows).
Now, the devices with B7 are mostly used together with a CRTU-PU (WCMDA); in that configuration, the CRTU-RU actually runs the DOS OPSW (which does little more than just setting RX and TX frequency, and configure the baseband/IF paths); all the Windows-based software runs on the -PU. In that case, the DOS OPSW on the -RU can be a newer version.
So - that's the reason why B7-equipped devices usually come with a more recent firmware than the non-B7 equipped devices. (Of course there may be configurations where you have both the USUs and B7, for example for fading simulation, but the majority of the CRTU-RUs come with _either_ B7 _or_ the link handlers.)
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Or have you ever seen a CRTU with the signalling features enabled? If so, I'd be curious about the hardware/software configuration.
I haven't, but a while ago I talked with a fellow engineer working in the mobile sector who worked for a very large cell phone manufacturer and knows these boxes pretty well, and he mentioned that the CRTU can actually do Signalling tests under DOS, although it needs certain licenses and a specific software. I didn't inquire further as I had no intention to do Signalling tests with my CRTU.
And yes, DSB+FM was added in 4.x; it's unrelated to the IQ board. However, the reason why most of the non-B7 equipped CRTUs ship with V3.23 is that the Windows-based software isn't compatible with DOS OPSW > 4.0.
Well, my CRTU already came with Windows software supporting 4.x installed, although now that I've upgraded the DOS part to 5.21 I get the software version error message when starting the Windows partition as I haven't yet installed updates for the Windows software that support 5.x (and frankly I can't really be arsed to).
I guess for most people here the Windows software is pretty irrelevant anyways, as the general test functionality is only available under DOS. Maybe some day someone will write some Windows programs that use the CRTU drivers to do something useful with the hardware under Windows, but until then the Windows partition is pretty useless.
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Are there any benefits going from 4.34 DOS to 5.21 DOS version?
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Are there any benefits going from 4.34 DOS to 5.21 DOS version?
It depends I guess. The jump from 3.x to 4.x is certainly bigger functionality-wise, and definitely worth it.
As to 5.21, it depends. I can't remember what's in it exactly but's apparently mostly improvements (for additional testing cell phone functionality, i.e. HSUPA, Bluetooth), plus some improvements in the basic functionality.
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Guess Bluetooth would need a separate license...would be interesting though ;-)
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Bluetooth needs additional hardware, as far as I'm aware. It's made for the Rohde+Schwarz CBT32 device, as far as I understand, which has dedicated bluetooth hardware. I assume same for the WCMDA support; I would be surprised if the CRTU-USU could actually be made to support WCDMA given that they usually have the CRTU-PU for that.
I'd love to hear otherwise, but I don't think there are software options for the CRTU that meaningfully extend functionality.
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Well for me it has anyway enough functionality for that price ;-)
Though still digging why GPIB doesn't work on Linux but on Windows....(o;
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..and most importantly, VLC 1.1.11 runs on 2K + a standard USB audio stick = Game Of Thrones!!
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..and most importantly, VLC 1.1.11 runs on 2K + a standard USB audio stick = Game Of Thrones!!
Rohde&S would be proud of the final use of that equipmnet :-DD
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Hi,
old thread I know, but does anyone know of source for a CRTU-G HDD disk image or other means of recovering a crashed HDD. My unit has an Intel CPU. Version 4.x would be great I only really need the DOS "Service" firmware.
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I was fairly certain I made image from my CRTU-RU HDD but appears to be nowhere to be found. :-//
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I think I've got one or two HDD:s left - I changed a few into SSD:s. Where do you live if I just mail you one ? I think I don't have 2.5" IDE capable machine to make an image at the moment.
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Hi MJS,
Sorry I missed your response. Thanks for the offer.
I have actually sorted out my CRTU-RU. It is now a pseudo CMU200 :-+
Having done a lot of investigation, the CRTU-RU is basically a CMU200 with two RF modules (CMU-B96) but no audio analyser (no CMU-B41). So it should support the CMU200 basic functions. I can confirm that it does. I talked to R&S and they sent me a copy of the CMU200 firmware/software/installer. No charge :clap: I installed this on a SSDD (Compact Flash in an adaptor). The only issue I had was that the installer expects the low level and boot formatting of the disk to have been done with DOS 6.22 FDISK and FORMAT/S. If this is not the case, e.g. FREEDOS or Windows is used it won't run.
Having installed it the CRTU now acts like a CMU200 with all modulations of the signal generator enabled etc. The installation software reproggrammed he module FPGA where required and read the calibration constants OK. The base system won't access the second RF module but you could use other software if you wanted to. I'm sure you could set up a dual boot system to keep the CRTU-RU functionality I have no need for it so didn't bother.
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Which version did you get from R&S?
So there are new modulation types available after installing CMU200 software?
With which software can you access the second RXTX module?
Thanks!
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Hi,
sorry for slow response, been busy. I now have CW, AM and SSB modulation as well as the original CW and FM.
AM shown below.
[attachimg=1]
Software was base 4.35, this is not compatible with the 1138.4000.82 (CRTU-G or CRTU-S) which I have, so the Application Software won't run with it installed, but who wants to test GSM phones :-//. With it instal/ed the unit functions as a basic CMU 200 without the AF analysis option (B42).
I've not tried controling the second RF unit.
Robert G8RPI.