Are 'premium' scope brands still justified?

[AndyC_772]

Hi all,

For the last 10 years or so, my everyday workhorse has been an Agilent MSO-X 3000A - first a 3054, then a couple of years later, a 3104A with some active probes.

It's one of those tools that 'just works'. I don't think about it, just switch on, connect probes, and get on with my job. Information is gained, progress made, invoice sent.

Recently, though, I've been starting to wonder if I perhaps should think about it. There's now a whole generation of newer scopes with 12 bit front ends and massive memory depth, both of which would be useful for the type of work I do now (but didn't when I bought my scope). I do a lot of work on sensors, which means I rarely need the bandwidth, but low noise and the ability to see and measure tiny signals would be much more useful.

Crucially, these newer scopes from the likes of Siglent and Rigol are affordable. The most entry-level models almost absurdly so. And so I'm left wondering, am I missing a trick by sticking with my tried-and-tested, utterly reliable and incredibly usable Agilent, when for a modest outlay I could have a newer scope that would do useful things to make my life easier and more productive?

It's easy to be dismissive of these lower cost brands. I still remember the Rigol that I bought at a previous company, which was great on paper but often painful to use in practice, with stupid and obvious firmware bugs that were never fixed. Reading around the forum over the last couple of days, it seems as though they may still not have improved, and that would be a total show-stopper in terms of replacing my Agilent on a day-to-day basis. But maybe it would still make sense to spend a few beer tokens on a DHO804 to pull out when I need to probe a small signal?

Then there's Siglent, who in my heart I've never quite forgiven for the shamelessly unimaginitive SDM30x5 family of DVMs. But nevertheless the SDS804X-HD has that same 12-bit for beer money appeal, and I believe, a slightly better reputation for firmware quality.

Or do I go upmarket a bit, enjoy a new bigger screen and huge memory, and look to relegate my Agilent for the rare occasions when I need 1GHz? An SDS2354X-HD with the options bundle offer looks very appealing at £2711 all in - but only if it's actually as effortlessly reliable and usable as my current scope. If it isn't, then it'll end up on the shelf, an expensive mistake.

For comparison, the nearest current Keysight would be the MSOX3034G - a whopping £11,595 for an 8 bit front end, 4M memory, and a hardware platform over 10 yrs old. It's clearly irrelevant to me as I already have the 3104A, but they must be selling them to somebody at that price. OK, usual arguments may apply about brand, quality, traceability, support etc, but I've not heard too many positive comments about Keysight support lately, and they certainly weren't much help when the PSU in my 3054A went bang a couple of years back. It's right to question the value of the brand when the gap in price, and spec, is so enormous.

I'm interested to learn from anyone else making their day-to-day living with a scope. Are these newer models still just plasticky junk, and a "real" scope is still a 5 figure investment? Or have the 'big boys' been caught napping, and are now about to find you can't charge £10k+ for obsolete hardware any more?

[Zenith]

I can't comment specifically, but generally, "the big boys" have always been forced to go further up the food chain, with higher specs and extras such as better support and software, as the low end became easier to enter. I've heard the reason they can sell some of the lower end stuff at high prices is that it's been written into procedures and there are organisations that are not cost sensitive, which really don't want to rewrite new procedures or approve new equipment.

[KungFuJosh]

I have the SDS2504X Plus, and I wouldn't hesitate to buy one of the HD models if I had the money. Buy from a reputable dealer, and there's very little risk. If you play with it for a week and you don't like it, you can return it.

[kripton2035]

siglent sds2104HD (with bundled options) owner here, just subscribing to this thread !

[2N3055]

As someone that has MSOX3104T (with full bundle) and now several Siglent scopes, I can directly compare for you.
I'm not going sing long praises either way.
For details, I would prefer if you would present usage scenarios where I can explain to you what you need.

In short:

Siglent scopes are nowadays not a B brand anymore. And SDS2354xHD is very much first scope I switch on these days. Dead quiet when on, large 10" screen, measurements/stats/histicons that are such time saver, better math, 12 bit/low noise F.E. (trace is as thin as on a good CRT scope) etc etc..
There is also new 3000xHD that is one step up from 2000xHD.

In reality I use any of my Siglents, or Picoscopes before MSOX3104T these days.
Keysight is mostly used for double checking, or for some specific stuff (it has some specific features in CAN decoding for instance), and very rarely.

You should really try to use Siglents. Could you test it somewhere?

[Bud]

If you can afford, continue with the A brands. It only takes one stupid bug or poorly responsive controls to make your life miserable.

[nctnico]

If you can afford, continue with the A brands. It only takes one stupid bug or poorly responsive controls to make your life miserable.

Very true! I have first hand experience with losing thousands of euros both in equipment costs and lost hours due to equipment not performing as expected.

Cheaper gear can be worthwhile but you really need to do the functional verification yourself (and repeat for each new firmware release). So in the end the 'savings' are not very high as you have to do the testing and qualification yourself. IF you even have the knowledge and means to do this; an unexperienced engineer is easely fooled into chasing his/her tail for days on end before considering equipment failure.

[KungFuJosh]

If you can afford, continue with the A brands. It only takes one stupid bug or poorly responsive controls to make your life miserable.

I consider Siglent an A brand now, but that's still a silly sentiment. There isn't a brand of scope on the market that never had any bugs, including current production models.

[tautech]

If you can afford, continue with the A brands. It only takes one stupid bug or poorly responsive controls to make your life miserable.

Quite right.
The earliest boot freezes IIRC were seen in HPAK.

[AndyC_772]

I don't think I've ever - and I mean *ever*, in 10+ years of daily professional use - come across a bug in my MSO-X3104A. Whatever and wherever they may be, they're minor and obscure enough not to be an issue at all. That's a phenomenal achievement.

As it happens I'm not too far from Telonic, who sell both Siglent and Rigol and have just opened a new showroom. I'm sure a little field trip would be a fun way to spend an afternoon and get a feel for which model might be right in terms of features and overall user experience, though I don't really believe it's possible to assess the true quality of an instrument in that time.

It's that quality that I'm most keen to hear about from people who have used these modern scopes extensively. I'm not asking what features I might need; I'm asking whether a £2500 scope, that on paper has a better spec than a £10k+ model from a 'traditional' (some might say 'A grade', or perhaps 'legacy' or 'incumbent') brand, is actually a good option for a working professional.

Can I afford an "A" brand scope? Maybe. I'm self employed, so every £1 that goes on equipment is £1 that can't go into my pension. This isn't a hobby, nor do I work for a faceless corporartion with a use-it-or-lose-it budget. Whatever tools I buy, need to be 'worth it' in a very objective, quantitative sense.

[tautech]

It's that quality that I'm most keen to hear about from people who have used these modern scopes extensively. I'm not asking what features I might need; I'm asking whether a £2500 scope, that on paper has a better spec than a £10k+ model from a 'traditional' (some might say 'A grade', or perhaps 'legacy' or 'incumbent') brand, is actually a good option for a working professional.

There are differences that depend on your workflow, certainly there are.

Here you can only go on advice from others that have the same scope as you do.
All I can add is in the class of scope you have, have provided excellent reliability in those we have sold.

But you'll have a new UI to learn and that's good, bad or otherwise depending on your experience.
IMO SDS2000X HD or better should be your target to look deeply at, just as 2N3055 has said.

[2N3055]

It's that quality that I'm most keen to hear about from people who have used these modern scopes extensively. I'm not asking what features I might need; I'm asking whether a £2500 scope, that on paper has a better spec than a £10k+ model from a 'traditional' (some might say 'A grade', or perhaps 'legacy' or 'incumbent') brand, is actually a good option for a working professional.

SDS2354xHD vs. Keysight

- mechanically as good quality
- input noise is superior, as is resolution
- industry leading input offset ranges
- 10" touch screen
- good measurements and stats, histograms, measurement gates

To cut it short, specifications are true.

Only thing that Keysight 3000A has advantage is very fast rettriger, and some of the decoding details (it is a bit more elaborate).
For analog, low level signals SDS2000xHD is superior.

I use Siglents for same purpose as your case. I also make for living using scopes. They work just fine.

[KungFuJosh]

I don't think I've ever - and I mean *ever*, in 10+ years of daily professional use - come across a bug in my MSO-X3104A. Whatever and wherever they may be, they're minor and obscure enough not to be an issue at all. That's a phenomenal achievement.

You can review their bug fix lists for each firmware release in their log: https://www.keysight.com/us/en/assets/9924-01108/release-notes/Keysight-2000A-3000A-X-Series-Oscilloscope-Release-Notes-02-66.pdf?success=true

Some of those bugs would be critical for some users. But they fixed them, as expected of any quality brand. A slightly more critical hardware bug: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/msox3104a-fails-to-boot/

[tszaboo]

I have the MSOX 3104T at work, Siglent SDS824HD at home. The Siglent is surprisingly good, and it can do things that the MSOX cannot. For example the 12 bit and zoom makes it almost work like a low speed power rail probe, that would be 5x the price of the scope just for the probe. I used Siglents before they between Ok to Meh. These HD models are good. And the entry price is very low.
But the reverse is also true. The MSOX is a workhorse, and I think every serious engineering company deserves to have one.

[mikeselectricstuff]

I've always used hp(54622d), Agilent (mso6034a) and Keysight (msox3104t)
Any replacement would absolutely have to have the same instant UI responsiveness. I've not tried any of the more recent Siglent etc. beyond occasional fiddles at trade shows, but a slower UI would be a dealbreaker as that impacts everything.
 The R&S RTB was a big disappointment in this respect, the RTM even more so as it is no better despite being a much higher end scope. I have the MSOX and RTM on the bench, but the RTM only gets used if I need the big screen or a second independent trigger.

[tautech]

I have the MSOX 3104T at work, Siglent SDS824HD at home. The Siglent is surprisingly good, and it can do things that the MSOX cannot. For example the 12 bit and zoom makes it almost work like a low speed power rail probe, that would be 5x the price of the scope just for the probe. I used Siglents before they between Ok to Meh. These HD models are good. And the entry price is very low.
But the reverse is also true. The MSOX is a workhorse, and I think every serious engineering company deserves to have one.

This.
Just to dabble with a SDS802X HD for only $340 as a test bed gets you to experience the same UI used in the PC based 16" screen 3&4 GHz SDS7000A.

[Martin72]

I'm interested to learn from anyone else making their day-to-day living with a scope. Are these newer models still just plasticky junk, and a "real" scope is still a 5 figure investment? Or have the 'big boys' been caught napping, and are now about to find you can't charge £10k+ for obsolete hardware any more?

Yes, you can get the impression that you don't have to spend a lot of money to get the same result, but that's not always the case.
Cheap and good scopes haven't been around that long either...
I started working in the test field a little over 20 years ago.
That's where I first came into contact with DSOs, before that I only knew analog ones from schools.
I was faced with a mix of DSOs, analog and "hermaphrodites", such as Philips with digital displays on the CRT.
I soon took the DSOs from Tektronix and Lecroy to my heart, at that time a Waverunner LT with 350Mhz and 1GSa/s was the best we had.
The prices were astronomical from a hobbyist's point of view, but the company had only ever bought oscilloscopes when the order situation was good.
Privately, the choice was between Tektronix, Hameg and Philips, all analog scopes that were reasonably affordable second-hand.
In 2006 we bought a cheap Wavesurfer model, it had Windows XP as OS and 200Mhz bandwidth.
Then, in 2009, the first "really cheap", 4 WaveJET scopes, each around 4000€.
They couldn't do anything, but they were small and cheap.
In 2009, someone had also brought a cheap scope from Uni-T, which was a disaster.
I had bought something similar privately and was just as disappointed.
The idea that only expensive branded goods are good remained for the time being.
Then later came various rigol ds1000Zs, which we only used for decoding, because our other scopes couldn't do that.
I also bought one privately and was satisfied at the time because I didn't do that much at home.
But even that couldn't hold a candle to our oldest lecroys, so there was still the idea that only scopes from "A-brands" were the real deal and therefore unattainable for hobbyists in terms of price.
Unless you were lucky and could buy one cheaply second-hand.
Then, almost at the end of the 2010s, two things happened.
The R&S RTB2000 series came out, followed by the Siglent SDS5000X plus.
In retrospect, these were real game changers.
Scopes under 10000€, which were fully usable and definitely gave a "pro feeling".
2020 then the SDS2000Xplus series from siglent...
That was another game changer, albeit rather quietly.
What you get for 1400€ was simply sensational.
I noticed it immediately, as I had been used to working with "Pro" scopes for years.
I would say that for everyday tasks, the scope is in no way inferior to other, much more expensive scopes - that's why we now have 6 of them in the test field.
90% of all conceivable tasks can be done as well with it as with scopes that cost 10x or more.
For the "rest" we now have scopes from lecroy that correspond to the current state of the art.
They have a right to exist, because despite all the enthusiasm about the fact that you can get good quality for (relatively) pocket money, such scopes will never become completely superfluous.
As always, it depends on the task at hand.
A word about bugs:
I only really came into contact with them with the cheap scopes - before that they were foreign to me.
In the meantime, they are also appearing in the "brand scopes", preferably in the cheaper models.
But if they are recognized and confirmed, they are also eliminated, at least at Lecroy and Tektronix.
And at Siglent, so there can no longer be any talk of a "B brand".

[AndyC_772]

I've ordered an SDS804X-HD.

If it's useful, gives me some meaningful insight into signals I can't currently see with my older scope, then that's a win, and a cheap one at that.

If I decide I actually like using it, then I can look into getting a 2000X-HD to be my new everyday workhorse.

I'm not sure I can see much benefit to the 3000X-HD series, other than the greater bandwidth and sample rate, which I don't really need.

Comparing like-for-like in terms of bandwidth (300M), the 3000 is about another £400 - not a huge increase - but there's no corresponding options bundle (logic analyser, wavegen, serial decodes) to match the current offer on the 2000 series. That makes the 2000 much better value right now.

Worst case, I've spent £355 to learn that I'm still using the right tool for the job, and try again in another 5 - 10 years.

Thanks for the insight everyone, much appreciated. 

[Martin72]

It's a good idea to start "small" to see if it fits at all.
The software/operation is almost identical to the other touchscreen models, so at least in that respect you will know what to expect with the larger models.
I would keep the previous workhorse.
We haven't retired our old horses either, there will always be a situation where they are needed.

[Electro Fan]

AndyC_722,
That is a very thoughtful, logical, and commendable approach.  Plz keep us posted on your learnings when the scope arrives, or any other thoughts along the way.
 

[joeqsmith]

I have the MSOX 3104T at work, Siglent SDS824HD at home. The Siglent is surprisingly good, and it can do things that the MSOX cannot. For example the 12 bit and zoom makes it almost work like a low speed power rail probe, that would be 5x the price of the scope just for the probe. I used Siglents before they between Ok to Meh. These HD models are good. And the entry price is very low.
But the reverse is also true. The MSOX is a workhorse, and I think every serious engineering company deserves to have one.

This.
Just to dabble with a SDS802X HD for only $340 as a test bed gets you to experience the same UI used in the PC based 16" screen 3&4 GHz SDS7000A.

I may go this route, similar to what we did with the Siglent Arb.  While I did ask you in the other thread if the scope's encoders actually worked you did not respond (maybe you think I was poking fun at Siglent) but it was a legitimate question based on what I saw with the other product.  I can't see spending upwards of 20k on a product that has a potential problem like this. 

[Pinkus]

But maybe it would still make sense to spend a few beer tokens on a DHO804 to pull out when I need to probe a small signal?

This is exactly what I did. I am using a Keysight DSOX4000 series scope as my daily work horse.  You might think it was already outdated and so do I sometimes. But at every fair,/exhibition I take a close look at various scopes ($3-4000 range) from the Chinese (due to their relatively low prices compared to Keysights scopes), and every time (really), I'm glad of my Keysight. They (China-scopes) get better from year to year, yes indeed, but at the moment I wouldn't swap under any circumstances. Maybe in 3 or 5 years time.
Side note: This may be one of the reasons why Keysight has not yet released a successor to the DSOX3K/4K
series: it is simply not necessary and the time can be used to make the successor even better. Good for me, so my scopes retains its value.

I bought a DHO804 for exactly the one reason you mention (small signals) (*). It is OK, even very OK for the price. But it's not even near to become a replacement, just a supplement that is switched on once a month (like a current probe).
(* I admit, I also bought it because it allows offsite operation on battery and because I can save my expensive Keysight for measuring some high voltage signals).
Please keep us informed about your impressions.

[KungFuJosh]

if the scope's encoders actually worked

I thought I responded? I've had zero issues at all with my SDS2504X+, and I'm not very gentle. There's no chance they would use lower quality hardware on their top tier machine.

[joeqsmith]

if the scope's encoders actually worked

I thought I responded? I've had zero issues at all with my SDS2504X+, and I'm not very gentle. There's no chance they would use lower quality hardware on their top tier machine.

How long have you owned the SDS2504X+?   I would say I am gentle, but I guess some equate to how fast I was turning the knob to using an electric drill.

My original posts and videos demonstrating the problems.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sgd2042x-rotary-encoder-poor-performance/msg4075474/#msg4075474

Later dialog which suggests about it.  Out side of suggesting that turning the encoder is some form of abuse and they had made changes in the firmware to address it, seems at one point tautech suggested it was firmware and not hardware.   There is mention that many users didn't have the problem.  Maybe it is firmware, hardware or quality control.  It didn't leave me with a lot of comfort.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/try-before-you-buy-357499/msg4617403/#msg4617403

I'm not apposed to buying another low cost product from Siglent to try it out.  My only concern is if it does have similar problems, their higher end products may behave completely different.  I had asked if their higher end Arbs would have the same problem.  I don't think I ever got an answer.   

[temperance]

Talking about encoders:

TDS5K series: pretty old now and the encoders are all bad. Those are custom and Tek doesn't provide new encoders. Do I have to put the scope in the scrap bin just because some encoders failed?
MSO3054: dual concentric zoom, scroll encoder broken (Jumps back and forth). No replacement available and the encoders can't be bought as a spare part. Repair cost over €400.
Keysight 33210A arb: encoder doesn't work properly after five years and again they are some custom thing made by I think Bourns. Replacement encoder price: astronomical (I don't remember exactly but it was around €180 for two lousy plastic encoder.)

Siglent: the encoders are the typical 5 pin things made by various manufacturers for less than €5 for a quality encoder.

@joeqsmith
The encoders on my SDG2042 X "works". It does not register all clicks but it does not jump back and forth. Maybe the encoder on your arb is broken. (I didn't read all what has been written about it)

SDS2354X HD all encoders work exceptionally well and I've never seen any jumps even when turned very fast. But the quality seems to be better in comparison with the encoder in the SDG arb.