Are 'premium' scope brands still justified?

[AndyC_772]

Hi all,

For the last 10 years or so, my everyday workhorse has been an Agilent MSO-X 3000A - first a 3054, then a couple of years later, a 3104A with some active probes.

It's one of those tools that 'just works'. I don't think about it, just switch on, connect probes, and get on with my job. Information is gained, progress made, invoice sent.

Recently, though, I've been starting to wonder if I perhaps should think about it. There's now a whole generation of newer scopes with 12 bit front ends and massive memory depth, both of which would be useful for the type of work I do now (but didn't when I bought my scope). I do a lot of work on sensors, which means I rarely need the bandwidth, but low noise and the ability to see and measure tiny signals would be much more useful.

Crucially, these newer scopes from the likes of Siglent and Rigol are affordable. The most entry-level models almost absurdly so. And so I'm left wondering, am I missing a trick by sticking with my tried-and-tested, utterly reliable and incredibly usable Agilent, when for a modest outlay I could have a newer scope that would do useful things to make my life easier and more productive?

It's easy to be dismissive of these lower cost brands. I still remember the Rigol that I bought at a previous company, which was great on paper but often painful to use in practice, with stupid and obvious firmware bugs that were never fixed. Reading around the forum over the last couple of days, it seems as though they may still not have improved, and that would be a total show-stopper in terms of replacing my Agilent on a day-to-day basis. But maybe it would still make sense to spend a few beer tokens on a DHO804 to pull out when I need to probe a small signal?

Then there's Siglent, who in my heart I've never quite forgiven for the shamelessly unimaginitive SDM30x5 family of DVMs. But nevertheless the SDS804X-HD has that same 12-bit for beer money appeal, and I believe, a slightly better reputation for firmware quality.

Or do I go upmarket a bit, enjoy a new bigger screen and huge memory, and look to relegate my Agilent for the rare occasions when I need 1GHz? An SDS2354X-HD with the options bundle offer looks very appealing at £2711 all in - but only if it's actually as effortlessly reliable and usable as my current scope. If it isn't, then it'll end up on the shelf, an expensive mistake.

For comparison, the nearest current Keysight would be the MSOX3034G - a whopping £11,595 for an 8 bit front end, 4M memory, and a hardware platform over 10 yrs old. It's clearly irrelevant to me as I already have the 3104A, but they must be selling them to somebody at that price. OK, usual arguments may apply about brand, quality, traceability, support etc, but I've not heard too many positive comments about Keysight support lately, and they certainly weren't much help when the PSU in my 3054A went bang a couple of years back. It's right to question the value of the brand when the gap in price, and spec, is so enormous.

I'm interested to learn from anyone else making their day-to-day living with a scope. Are these newer models still just plasticky junk, and a "real" scope is still a 5 figure investment? Or have the 'big boys' been caught napping, and are now about to find you can't charge £10k+ for obsolete hardware any more?

[Zenith]

I can't comment specifically, but generally, "the big boys" have always been forced to go further up the food chain, with higher specs and extras such as better support and software, as the low end became easier to enter. I've heard the reason they can sell some of the lower end stuff at high prices is that it's been written into procedures and there are organisations that are not cost sensitive, which really don't want to rewrite new procedures or approve new equipment.

[KungFuJosh]

I have the SDS2504X Plus, and I wouldn't hesitate to buy one of the HD models if I had the money. Buy from a reputable dealer, and there's very little risk. If you play with it for a week and you don't like it, you can return it.

[kripton2035]

siglent sds2104HD (with bundled options) owner here, just subscribing to this thread !

[2N3055]

As someone that has MSOX3104T (with full bundle) and now several Siglent scopes, I can directly compare for you.
I'm not going sing long praises either way.
For details, I would prefer if you would present usage scenarios where I can explain to you what you need.

In short:

Siglent scopes are nowadays not a B brand anymore. And SDS2354xHD is very much first scope I switch on these days. Dead quiet when on, large 10" screen, measurements/stats/histicons that are such time saver, better math, 12 bit/low noise F.E. (trace is as thin as on a good CRT scope) etc etc..
There is also new 3000xHD that is one step up from 2000xHD.

In reality I use any of my Siglents, or Picoscopes before MSOX3104T these days.
Keysight is mostly used for double checking, or for some specific stuff (it has some specific features in CAN decoding for instance), and very rarely.

You should really try to use Siglents. Could you test it somewhere?

[Bud]

If you can afford, continue with the A brands. It only takes one stupid bug or poorly responsive controls to make your life miserable.

[nctnico]

If you can afford, continue with the A brands. It only takes one stupid bug or poorly responsive controls to make your life miserable.

Very true! I have first hand experience with losing thousands of euros both in equipment costs and lost hours due to equipment not performing as expected.

Cheaper gear can be worthwhile but you really need to do the functional verification yourself (and repeat for each new firmware release). So in the end the 'savings' are not very high as you have to do the testing and qualification yourself. IF you even have the knowledge and means to do this; an unexperienced engineer is easely fooled into chasing his/her tail for days on end before considering equipment failure.

[KungFuJosh]

If you can afford, continue with the A brands. It only takes one stupid bug or poorly responsive controls to make your life miserable.

I consider Siglent an A brand now, but that's still a silly sentiment. There isn't a brand of scope on the market that never had any bugs, including current production models.

[tautech]

If you can afford, continue with the A brands. It only takes one stupid bug or poorly responsive controls to make your life miserable.

Quite right.
The earliest boot freezes IIRC were seen in HPAK.

[AndyC_772]

I don't think I've ever - and I mean *ever*, in 10+ years of daily professional use - come across a bug in my MSO-X3104A. Whatever and wherever they may be, they're minor and obscure enough not to be an issue at all. That's a phenomenal achievement.

As it happens I'm not too far from Telonic, who sell both Siglent and Rigol and have just opened a new showroom. I'm sure a little field trip would be a fun way to spend an afternoon and get a feel for which model might be right in terms of features and overall user experience, though I don't really believe it's possible to assess the true quality of an instrument in that time.

It's that quality that I'm most keen to hear about from people who have used these modern scopes extensively. I'm not asking what features I might need; I'm asking whether a £2500 scope, that on paper has a better spec than a £10k+ model from a 'traditional' (some might say 'A grade', or perhaps 'legacy' or 'incumbent') brand, is actually a good option for a working professional.

Can I afford an "A" brand scope? Maybe. I'm self employed, so every £1 that goes on equipment is £1 that can't go into my pension. This isn't a hobby, nor do I work for a faceless corporartion with a use-it-or-lose-it budget. Whatever tools I buy, need to be 'worth it' in a very objective, quantitative sense.

[tautech]

It's that quality that I'm most keen to hear about from people who have used these modern scopes extensively. I'm not asking what features I might need; I'm asking whether a £2500 scope, that on paper has a better spec than a £10k+ model from a 'traditional' (some might say 'A grade', or perhaps 'legacy' or 'incumbent') brand, is actually a good option for a working professional.

There are differences that depend on your workflow, certainly there are.

Here you can only go on advice from others that have the same scope as you do.
All I can add is in the class of scope you have, have provided excellent reliability in those we have sold.

But you'll have a new UI to learn and that's good, bad or otherwise depending on your experience.
IMO SDS2000X HD or better should be your target to look deeply at, just as 2N3055 has said.

[2N3055]

It's that quality that I'm most keen to hear about from people who have used these modern scopes extensively. I'm not asking what features I might need; I'm asking whether a £2500 scope, that on paper has a better spec than a £10k+ model from a 'traditional' (some might say 'A grade', or perhaps 'legacy' or 'incumbent') brand, is actually a good option for a working professional.

SDS2354xHD vs. Keysight

- mechanically as good quality
- input noise is superior, as is resolution
- industry leading input offset ranges
- 10" touch screen
- good measurements and stats, histograms, measurement gates

To cut it short, specifications are true.

Only thing that Keysight 3000A has advantage is very fast rettriger, and some of the decoding details (it is a bit more elaborate).
For analog, low level signals SDS2000xHD is superior.

I use Siglents for same purpose as your case. I also make for living using scopes. They work just fine.

[KungFuJosh]

I don't think I've ever - and I mean *ever*, in 10+ years of daily professional use - come across a bug in my MSO-X3104A. Whatever and wherever they may be, they're minor and obscure enough not to be an issue at all. That's a phenomenal achievement.

You can review their bug fix lists for each firmware release in their log: https://www.keysight.com/us/en/assets/9924-01108/release-notes/Keysight-2000A-3000A-X-Series-Oscilloscope-Release-Notes-02-66.pdf?success=true

Some of those bugs would be critical for some users. But they fixed them, as expected of any quality brand. A slightly more critical hardware bug: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/msox3104a-fails-to-boot/

[tszaboo]

I have the MSOX 3104T at work, Siglent SDS824HD at home. The Siglent is surprisingly good, and it can do things that the MSOX cannot. For example the 12 bit and zoom makes it almost work like a low speed power rail probe, that would be 5x the price of the scope just for the probe. I used Siglents before they between Ok to Meh. These HD models are good. And the entry price is very low.
But the reverse is also true. The MSOX is a workhorse, and I think every serious engineering company deserves to have one.

[mikeselectricstuff]

I've always used hp(54622d), Agilent (mso6034a) and Keysight (msox3104t)
Any replacement would absolutely have to have the same instant UI responsiveness. I've not tried any of the more recent Siglent etc. beyond occasional fiddles at trade shows, but a slower UI would be a dealbreaker as that impacts everything.
 The R&S RTB was a big disappointment in this respect, the RTM even more so as it is no better despite being a much higher end scope. I have the MSOX and RTM on the bench, but the RTM only gets used if I need the big screen or a second independent trigger.

[tautech]

I have the MSOX 3104T at work, Siglent SDS824HD at home. The Siglent is surprisingly good, and it can do things that the MSOX cannot. For example the 12 bit and zoom makes it almost work like a low speed power rail probe, that would be 5x the price of the scope just for the probe. I used Siglents before they between Ok to Meh. These HD models are good. And the entry price is very low.
But the reverse is also true. The MSOX is a workhorse, and I think every serious engineering company deserves to have one.

This.
Just to dabble with a SDS802X HD for only $340 as a test bed gets you to experience the same UI used in the PC based 16" screen 3&4 GHz SDS7000A.

[Martin72]

I'm interested to learn from anyone else making their day-to-day living with a scope. Are these newer models still just plasticky junk, and a "real" scope is still a 5 figure investment? Or have the 'big boys' been caught napping, and are now about to find you can't charge £10k+ for obsolete hardware any more?

Yes, you can get the impression that you don't have to spend a lot of money to get the same result, but that's not always the case.
Cheap and good scopes haven't been around that long either...
I started working in the test field a little over 20 years ago.
That's where I first came into contact with DSOs, before that I only knew analog ones from schools.
I was faced with a mix of DSOs, analog and "hermaphrodites", such as Philips with digital displays on the CRT.
I soon took the DSOs from Tektronix and Lecroy to my heart, at that time a Waverunner LT with 350Mhz and 1GSa/s was the best we had.
The prices were astronomical from a hobbyist's point of view, but the company had only ever bought oscilloscopes when the order situation was good.
Privately, the choice was between Tektronix, Hameg and Philips, all analog scopes that were reasonably affordable second-hand.
In 2006 we bought a cheap Wavesurfer model, it had Windows XP as OS and 200Mhz bandwidth.
Then, in 2009, the first "really cheap", 4 WaveJET scopes, each around 4000€.
They couldn't do anything, but they were small and cheap.
In 2009, someone had also brought a cheap scope from Uni-T, which was a disaster.
I had bought something similar privately and was just as disappointed.
The idea that only expensive branded goods are good remained for the time being.
Then later came various rigol ds1000Zs, which we only used for decoding, because our other scopes couldn't do that.
I also bought one privately and was satisfied at the time because I didn't do that much at home.
But even that couldn't hold a candle to our oldest lecroys, so there was still the idea that only scopes from "A-brands" were the real deal and therefore unattainable for hobbyists in terms of price.
Unless you were lucky and could buy one cheaply second-hand.
Then, almost at the end of the 2010s, two things happened.
The R&S RTB2000 series came out, followed by the Siglent SDS5000X plus.
In retrospect, these were real game changers.
Scopes under 10000€, which were fully usable and definitely gave a "pro feeling".
2020 then the SDS2000Xplus series from siglent...
That was another game changer, albeit rather quietly.
What you get for 1400€ was simply sensational.
I noticed it immediately, as I had been used to working with "Pro" scopes for years.
I would say that for everyday tasks, the scope is in no way inferior to other, much more expensive scopes - that's why we now have 6 of them in the test field.
90% of all conceivable tasks can be done as well with it as with scopes that cost 10x or more.
For the "rest" we now have scopes from lecroy that correspond to the current state of the art.
They have a right to exist, because despite all the enthusiasm about the fact that you can get good quality for (relatively) pocket money, such scopes will never become completely superfluous.
As always, it depends on the task at hand.
A word about bugs:
I only really came into contact with them with the cheap scopes - before that they were foreign to me.
In the meantime, they are also appearing in the "brand scopes", preferably in the cheaper models.
But if they are recognized and confirmed, they are also eliminated, at least at Lecroy and Tektronix.
And at Siglent, so there can no longer be any talk of a "B brand".

[AndyC_772]

I've ordered an SDS804X-HD.

If it's useful, gives me some meaningful insight into signals I can't currently see with my older scope, then that's a win, and a cheap one at that.

If I decide I actually like using it, then I can look into getting a 2000X-HD to be my new everyday workhorse.

I'm not sure I can see much benefit to the 3000X-HD series, other than the greater bandwidth and sample rate, which I don't really need.

Comparing like-for-like in terms of bandwidth (300M), the 3000 is about another £400 - not a huge increase - but there's no corresponding options bundle (logic analyser, wavegen, serial decodes) to match the current offer on the 2000 series. That makes the 2000 much better value right now.

Worst case, I've spent £355 to learn that I'm still using the right tool for the job, and try again in another 5 - 10 years.

Thanks for the insight everyone, much appreciated. 

[Martin72]

It's a good idea to start "small" to see if it fits at all.
The software/operation is almost identical to the other touchscreen models, so at least in that respect you will know what to expect with the larger models.
I would keep the previous workhorse.
We haven't retired our old horses either, there will always be a situation where they are needed.

[Electro Fan]

AndyC_722,
That is a very thoughtful, logical, and commendable approach.  Plz keep us posted on your learnings when the scope arrives, or any other thoughts along the way.
 

[joeqsmith]

I have the MSOX 3104T at work, Siglent SDS824HD at home. The Siglent is surprisingly good, and it can do things that the MSOX cannot. For example the 12 bit and zoom makes it almost work like a low speed power rail probe, that would be 5x the price of the scope just for the probe. I used Siglents before they between Ok to Meh. These HD models are good. And the entry price is very low.
But the reverse is also true. The MSOX is a workhorse, and I think every serious engineering company deserves to have one.

This.
Just to dabble with a SDS802X HD for only $340 as a test bed gets you to experience the same UI used in the PC based 16" screen 3&4 GHz SDS7000A.

I may go this route, similar to what we did with the Siglent Arb.  While I did ask you in the other thread if the scope's encoders actually worked you did not respond (maybe you think I was poking fun at Siglent) but it was a legitimate question based on what I saw with the other product.  I can't see spending upwards of 20k on a product that has a potential problem like this. 

[Pinkus]

But maybe it would still make sense to spend a few beer tokens on a DHO804 to pull out when I need to probe a small signal?

This is exactly what I did. I am using a Keysight DSOX4000 series scope as my daily work horse.  You might think it was already outdated and so do I sometimes. But at every fair,/exhibition I take a close look at various scopes ($3-4000 range) from the Chinese (due to their relatively low prices compared to Keysights scopes), and every time (really), I'm glad of my Keysight. They (China-scopes) get better from year to year, yes indeed, but at the moment I wouldn't swap under any circumstances. Maybe in 3 or 5 years time.
Side note: This may be one of the reasons why Keysight has not yet released a successor to the DSOX3K/4K
series: it is simply not necessary and the time can be used to make the successor even better. Good for me, so my scopes retains its value.

I bought a DHO804 for exactly the one reason you mention (small signals) (*). It is OK, even very OK for the price. But it's not even near to become a replacement, just a supplement that is switched on once a month (like a current probe).
(* I admit, I also bought it because it allows offsite operation on battery and because I can save my expensive Keysight for measuring some high voltage signals).
Please keep us informed about your impressions.

[KungFuJosh]

if the scope's encoders actually worked

I thought I responded? I've had zero issues at all with my SDS2504X+, and I'm not very gentle. There's no chance they would use lower quality hardware on their top tier machine.

[joeqsmith]

if the scope's encoders actually worked

I thought I responded? I've had zero issues at all with my SDS2504X+, and I'm not very gentle. There's no chance they would use lower quality hardware on their top tier machine.

How long have you owned the SDS2504X+?   I would say I am gentle, but I guess some equate to how fast I was turning the knob to using an electric drill.

My original posts and videos demonstrating the problems.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sgd2042x-rotary-encoder-poor-performance/msg4075474/#msg4075474

Later dialog which suggests about it.  Out side of suggesting that turning the encoder is some form of abuse and they had made changes in the firmware to address it, seems at one point tautech suggested it was firmware and not hardware.   There is mention that many users didn't have the problem.  Maybe it is firmware, hardware or quality control.  It didn't leave me with a lot of comfort.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/try-before-you-buy-357499/msg4617403/#msg4617403

I'm not apposed to buying another low cost product from Siglent to try it out.  My only concern is if it does have similar problems, their higher end products may behave completely different.  I had asked if their higher end Arbs would have the same problem.  I don't think I ever got an answer.   

[temperance]

Talking about encoders:

TDS5K series: pretty old now and the encoders are all bad. Those are custom and Tek doesn't provide new encoders. Do I have to put the scope in the scrap bin just because some encoders failed?
MSO3054: dual concentric zoom, scroll encoder broken (Jumps back and forth). No replacement available and the encoders can't be bought as a spare part. Repair cost over €400.
Keysight 33210A arb: encoder doesn't work properly after five years and again they are some custom thing made by I think Bourns. Replacement encoder price: astronomical (I don't remember exactly but it was around €180 for two lousy plastic encoder.)

Siglent: the encoders are the typical 5 pin things made by various manufacturers for less than €5 for a quality encoder.

@joeqsmith
The encoders on my SDG2042 X "works". It does not register all clicks but it does not jump back and forth. Maybe the encoder on your arb is broken. (I didn't read all what has been written about it)

SDS2354X HD all encoders work exceptionally well and I've never seen any jumps even when turned very fast. But the quality seems to be better in comparison with the encoder in the SDG arb.

[KungFuJosh]

How long have you owned the SDS2504X+?   I would say I am gentle, but I guess some equate to how fast I was turning the knob to using an electric drill.

I'm not apposed to buying another low cost product from Siglent to try it out.  My only concern is if it does have similar problems, their higher end products may behave completely different.  I had asked if their higher end Arbs would have the same problem.  I don't think I ever got an answer.

I've had the SDS2504X+ over 3 years, as it's out of warranty now. I've never had any problems with it.
Things that annoy me:
1. I don't like confirmation dialogs, the confirmations should be optional (in settings) but for both Auto set and Default, you have to either multi-hit the button, or click the confirmation. Not terrible, but annoying to me.
2. Until the last firmware update (which needs to be rereleased) there was a persistent confirmation after screenshots that needed to be clicked away (it's corrected / option in fw 1.6.2+).
3. I want to be able to change the trace color for XY mode, but it's currently stuck on an annoying blue, that at the very least, should be a brighter hue.
4. A common problem with Siglent Bode plot (nit picking) the Bode plot system is completely separate from the main system, so it's a little weird going back and forth and there's some options I wish that were persistent. Not a big deal, the Bode plots are great, but some minor improvements would be nice.

I've owned the SDG2122X for longer than that, and I never had issues with that either. The rotary on the SDG does not feel as nice as the rotaries on the scope, but it has never failed me either. Full disclosure though, I use that specific SDG rotary less than I use the numeric keypad and other buttons.

My guess would be that your issue is more likely QC than anything else. Thousands of parts go out, some of them suck. But like I said, it doesn't feel as nice as the scope rotaries.

I agree with you, getting a lower end scope probably doesn't give you a good comparison of the hardware; I don't know if they use the same encoders or not, but I assume not until somebody says otherwise.

I think you should contact Siglent for a loaner so you can properly put it through its paces. Or ask if you can purchase it with an extended return period (60 or 90 days?) so you can properly test it, review it, and decide if you want to keep it.

Getting the 800 series stuff would probably still be fun, but I don't think it's remotely close to a taste of the 7000 series. I have absolutely no need for another scope, but I still had to stop myself from ordering the 800 a couple times. Stupid TEAS. 🙄

Thanks,
Josh

[joeqsmith]

The encoders on my SDG2042 X "works". It does not register all clicks but it does not jump back and forth.

I could live with the skips but that back and forth makes it unusable.    Talking with others, if it is a bad encoder out of the box tells me they don't test them.  Worse, they had a several get out with bad encoders as it seems like a common problem.  Enough so that they made changes to the firmware to attempt to address it.   

I have a HP33120A that I bought new when it was first introduced.  So far the encoder is flawless.  Same for my Marconi 2024 and my Tektronix (Sony) arb.  All of my scopes are also very old and the encoders on the two newer LeCroys have not had any problem.   All of that equipment is 20 years old, or older. 

My first LeCroy DSO behaves similar to the Siglent arb where some of the encoders on the chassis (mainframe system) are jumping back and forth.  Consider that scope is another 10 years old and was used by the USAF.  After so many years of service, I expect problems but that Siglent was a problem brand new out of the box.

Good to hear their scopes don't appear to have this problem.   Again, I am not apposed to looking at another Siglent product but $20k seems like a high risk. 

[KungFuJosh]

Good to hear their scopes don't appear to have this problem.   Again, I am not apposed to looking at another Siglent product but $20k seems like a high risk.

Buying a new scope is certainly a risk, but for what it does, it's a fraction of the cost risk as other brands. Only you know what you actually need. If you think a 2000 HD or 3000 HD would be sufficient, then go that way for much less money. Or try out that new scope from Batronix when it's available. 😉

[joeqsmith]

...
I think you should contact Siglent for a loaner so you can properly put it through its paces. Or ask if you can purchase it with an extended return period (60 or 90 days?) so you can properly test it, review it, and decide if you want to keep it.

Getting the 800 series stuff would probably still be fun, but I don't think it's remotely close to a taste of the 7000 series. I have absolutely no need for another scope,...

The 800 is cheap enough, I wouldn't worry about getting a loaner or returns.  The 7000 is a different story.  Even if I had more confidence in the brand, it's enough cash I would want to take for a test drive.  It's a bit overkill though for my general use.  For the most part, I like that old WaveBlunder but it is no longer reliable.   

[KungFuJosh]

The 800 is cheap enough, I wouldn't worry about getting a loaner or returns.  The 7000 is a different story.  Even if I had more confidence in the brand, it's enough cash I would want to take for a test drive.  It's a bit overkill though for my general use.  For the most part, I like that old WaveBlunder but it is no longer reliable.

The 800 is good for some stuff, but it's max 200MHz, lower specs, less triggers, etc. You could probably get a loaner for even the 2000 or 3000 stuff (eventually). If you need 1GHz, 3000 series is your starting place.

[AndyC_772]

I've had issues with rotary encoders on both Tek and Agilent scopes. I'd have expected that they'd be optical, with nothing to wear out, but clearly that's not the case even on those brands.

With that in mind, if Siglent's encoders are a bit rubbish too, I doubt I'd even register it as an issue.

[Martin72]

I found the encoders on the SDS2000X HD to be of much higher quality than on the SDS2000X plus.
But this could also have been due to the clicking noise.
No, the overall feel was simply of a higher quality, and I'm not talking about the aluminum handle.

[joeqsmith]

The 800 is good for some stuff, but it's max 200MHz, lower specs, less triggers, etc. You could probably get a loaner for even the 2000 or 3000 stuff (eventually). If you need 1GHz, 3000 series is your starting place.

The 800 would only be for evaluating a second Siglent product.   Needs were outlined in my other thread but really only looking for 500MHz or so BW.   Nothing special.   

[KungFuJosh]

The 800 is good for some stuff, but it's max 200MHz, lower specs, less triggers, etc. You could probably get a loaner for even the 2000 or 3000 stuff (eventually). If you need 1GHz, 3000 series is your starting place.

The 800 would only be for evaluating a second Siglent product.   Needs were outlined in my other thread but really only looking for 500MHz or so BW.   Nothing special.

I only mentioned the 1G because you said earlier "the rare occasions when I need 1GHz..."

I assume the 800 is great, but I don't think it will give you a valid idea of the higher end quality. I think my Plus model is great, and Martin who previously owned both the Plus and the HD thought the HD was much better, and now he's waiting for a 3000.

I think if 500MHz is enough for you, then the 2000 with the sale bundle is a killer deal. Your skill level is well above mine, so check the specs for yourself. 😉

[tautech]

The 800 is good for some stuff, but it's max 200MHz, lower specs, less triggers, etc. You could probably get a loaner for even the 2000 or 3000 stuff (eventually). If you need 1GHz, 3000 series is your starting place.

The 800 would only be for evaluating a second Siglent product.   Needs were outlined in my other thread but really only looking for 500MHz or so BW.   Nothing special.

FYI
The larger 12" display versions SDS6000A start from 500 MHz and under 1/2 the cost of 15" 3 GHz 12bit SDS7304A.
The 2 GHz SDS6204A I have is still just a little more than 1/2 the cost of SDS7304A.

[joeqsmith]

I only mentioned the 1G because you said earlier "the rare occasions when I need 1GHz..."

I assume the 800 is great, but I don't think it will give you a valid idea of the higher end quality. I think my Plus model is great, and Martin who previously owned both the Plus and the HD thought the HD was much better, and now he's waiting for a 3000.

I think if 500MHz is enough for you, then the 2000 with the sale bundle is a killer deal. Your skill level is well above mine, so check the specs for yourself. 😉

Sorry but I have no idea about the rare occasions comment.   Maybe a blackout drunk post but the search engine failed to locate anything.   

I do have the WaveMaster which is rated for 5G 20Gs.  Also my first DSO which is 4G BW but RIS only.   I wouldn't mind having a newer scope that ups the BW with 40Gs but even in the used market, I doubt I would swing it. 

Really just looking to replace my daily driver.   500MHz, decent buffer, fast offload of data, good size screen, lower heat, faster warmup...   I could swing a decent new mid range scope.  Figure for the cost, this is now about the sweet spot where it makes less sense to look at used.   

[Martin72]

Martin who previously owned both the Plus and the HD thought the HD was much better, and now he's waiting for a 3000.

Knowing, not thinking.
But not much better, more better...
If I remember correctly, joeqsmith has a WavePro, albeit an older one, at the start.
From my own experience, I know that anything less than a 2000X HD wouldn't make sense.
Actually nothing under an SDS6000*.
And if, like me, he appreciates the multi-grid function of a Lecroy, then not even that.


*) It's no longer a secret that the 3000X HD has a lot in common with the 6000, so perhaps that could play a role again.

[2N3055]

SDS3000xHD has 1Gb Ethernet and network is very fast. It saves bin data at pretty much Ethernet speed (90-100 MBytes per sec)

[Demon Xanth]

Having used Tektronix scopes all the way up to an MDO4104, my take is this:
If you need the high end features such as active probes and the like, and you have the budget, go there.

Otherwise, I'm astonishingly happy with my Rigol DHO804 (914). Much more happy than I am with my Micsig ATO1104. The biggest issue I have is finding things in menus, but that's more of a familiarity thing. Especially as feature count has grown. They don't feel like toys or companies pushing things that sorta work anymore. If you put a Tek DPO4104 and my Rigol DHO804 in front of me and the signals were less than 100MHz, I'd use the Rigol. But if I had to measure an impedance critical signal where I need to use a FET probe...well...then the Rigol isn't going to cut it.

Scopes I personally own:
HP 1200B
Tek 222
Miniware DS213
Hantek 2D72
Micsig ATO1104
Rigol DHO804
Digilent AD2

[KungFuJosh]

Sorry but I have no idea about the rare occasions comment.   Maybe a blackout drunk post but the search engine failed to locate anything.   

My bad, that was the OP, not you.

Knowing, not thinking.

Same thing. 😉

[MarkL]

I don't think I've ever - and I mean *ever*, in 10+ years of daily professional use - come across a bug in my MSO-X3104A. Whatever and wherever they may be, they're minor and obscure enough not to be an issue at all. That's a phenomenal achievement.

You can review their bug fix lists for each firmware release in their log: https://www.keysight.com/us/en/assets/9924-01108/release-notes/Keysight-2000A-3000A-X-Series-Oscilloscope-Release-Notes-02-66.pdf?success=true

Some of those bugs would be critical for some users. But they fixed them, as expected of any quality brand. A slightly more critical hardware bug: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/msox3104a-fails-to-boot/

I've submitted at least a half dozen bugs on my MSO-X3104A over the last 12 years I've been using it.  They've all been fixed at this point, but only two of them showed up in the Release Notes and one of them (not listed) took almost 3 years.  My point being, don't read too much about quality into the small list of fixed bugs in the Release Notes.

[joeqsmith]

...
If I remember correctly, joeqsmith has a WavePro, albeit an older one, at the start.
From my own experience, I know that anything less than a 2000X HD wouldn't make sense.
Actually nothing under an SDS6000*.
And if, like me, he appreciates the multi-grid function of a Lecroy, then not even that.
...

Had an old WavePro 7300 at the house to upgrade to XP a few years ago.  Nice scope.  A bit overkill for my general purpose use.

Indeed,  I do like the multi-display.   For that matter, I like the way these old scope drive in general.   

[KungFuJosh]

I've submitted at least a half dozen bugs on my MSO-X3104A over the last 12 years I've been using it.  They've all been fixed at this point, but only two of them showed up in the Release Notes and one of them (not listed) took almost 3 years.  My point being, don't read too much about quality into the small list of fixed bugs in the Release Notes.

My post wasn't specifically about quality, but a track record of making bug fixes, even when some people think their scope might be bug free. Also that they do fix bugs, which not all brands are good about.

[joeqsmith]

I do have the WaveMaster which is rated for 5G 20Gs.  Also my first DSO which is 4G BW but RIS only.   I wouldn't mind having a newer scope that ups the BW with 40Gs but even in the used market, I doubt I would swing it. 

Thinking of high speed, I should have mentioned that SJL provided me with one of their 4-channel pocket oscilloscopes which they spec for 6G.   Tr measures close to 35ps.  Like my first DSO, it is also a sampling design (requires a repetitive signal).  SJL continues to develop the software/firmware/hardware and the scope has greatly improved since I first received it.   There are other oddities due to the architecture which further limit it's use, but if you are looking for a low cost solution to look at say 2-state digital signals,  it may be a good fit.   It's a well made product.     

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/pocket-sized-6-ghz-1-tss-et-scope/

[Performa01]

From the Siglent catalog, I would recommend the SDS3000X HD – even though I don’t have one myself, but @2N3055 can comment on it. Reasons are that it is a midrange instrument with all the goodies that one might expect, and it is 12 bits and provides fast gigabit ethernet on top of that. Furthermore, since you want 500 MHz bandwidth, this instrument can easily deliver it on all four channels at the same time.

My current darling MSO is the SDS2504X HD, partly because it is almost inaudible, yet it can handle 500 MHz (570 actually) only in half channel mode, i.e. only 2 channels on different ADCs active. It also lacks some midrange features like an active probe interface. That’s why I’d recommend the SDS3000X HD.

The SDS6000A is great in principle, but also a bit older and it was a co-development with LeCroy. All this shows also in the 100 Mbps Ethernet interface and the fact that even though it has four 12-bit ADCs, it can only be sold as 8-bit version outside of China. And there is also no way hacking it, because ADC calibration is only for 8 bits.

Evaluating an 800X HD series at first might be an option indeed. Sure, it is a different class, but most seasoned engineers tend to conclude that this little thing might compare well in certain areas against the scope they have used so far and it’s only missing the obvious midrange goodies, like bigger screen with higher resolution, active probe interface, higher bandwidth and sample rate. Those who aren’t familiar with LeCroy, might even discover new analytical capabilities, even though (especially) the 800 series lacks quite a bit in this regard when compared to the 2000 or higher series.

[Martin72]

Evaluating an 800X HD series at first might be an option indeed

I've had the SDS800X HD here for just over a month now, as a "stopgap" until the SDS3034X HD finally arrives....
This is by far the "best" oscilloscope you can get for around €500.
There is nothing comparable on the market and not so long ago I would have said that's it, that's all you need as a hobbyist.
But I know/had the 2000Xplus and most recently the 2000X HD, so I'm a bit biased.
However, it is ideal for testing whether you might like Siglent's "philosophy" in general.

[ebastler]

There is nothing comparable on the market and not so long ago I would have said that's it, that's all you need as a hobbyist.
But I know/had the 2000Xplus and most recently the 2000X HD, so I'm a bit biased.

The word you're looking for is "spoiled". 

[Martin72]

That can also be the case.

[2N3055]

There is nothing comparable on the market and not so long ago I would have said that's it, that's all you need as a hobbyist.
But I know/had the 2000Xplus and most recently the 2000X HD, so I'm a bit biased.

The word you're looking for is "spoiled". 

Politically correct term would be connoisseur ...

[Martin72]

Although I have to say, after a little thought, I would have to cancel the 2000Xplus again, a clear improvement on the 800X HD would in fact only be the 2000X HD.
There is nothing in between, not even the 1000X HD.
Main reason:
Guess what...

[tautech]

Although I have to say, after a little thought, I would have to cancel the 2000Xplus again, a clear improvement on the 800X HD would in fact only be the 2000X HD.
There is nothing in between, not even the 1000X HD.
Main reason:
Guess what...

1. Low noise
2. Full memory management

[Martin72]

1. ERES not only as a mathfunction
2. Low noise
3. Full memory management
 

[Electro Fan]

Although I have to say, after a little thought, I would have to cancel the 2000Xplus again, a clear improvement on the 800X HD would in fact only be the 2000X HD.
There is nothing in between, not even the 1000X HD.
Main reason:
Guess what...

1. Low noise
2. Full memory management

From the spec sheets:
2000X HD Jitter CH1~CH4  <10 ps rms (typical), Ext <200 ps rms
1000X HD Jitter CH1~CH4 <100 ps, Ext <200 ps rms
  800X HD Jitter CH1~CH4 <100 ps, Ext na

https://siglentna.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2023/03/SDS2000X-HD_Datasheet_EN01A.pdf
https://siglentna.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2024/03/SDS1000X-HD_Datasheet_EN01F.pdf
https://siglentna.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2024/03/SDS800X-HD_Datasheet_EN01C.pdf

[Performa01]

From the spec sheets:
2000X HD Jitter CH1~CH4  <10 ps rms (typical), Ext <200 ps rms
1000X HD Jitter CH1~CH4 <100 ps, Ext <200 ps rms
  800X HD Jitter CH1~CH4 <100 ps, Ext na

https://siglentna.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2023/03/SDS2000X-HD_Datasheet_EN01A.pdf
https://siglentna.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2024/03/SDS1000X-HD_Datasheet_EN01F.pdf
https://siglentna.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2024/03/SDS800X-HD_Datasheet_EN01C.pdf

As explained several times already, the low-end device jitter specs are just some house numbers that can never be violated. By contrast, e.g. the SDS2000X HD provides true specifications for that property - and very conservative ones, as the actual jitter is still some five times better.

In actual fact, we can derive the trigger jitter from the peak detect specification, since this indicates the sample rate in the trigger path. As this is 2 ns on the SDS800X HD vs. 1 ns on the SDS2000X HD, we can expect the trigger jitter to be twice as high. Consequently, a proper specification would read <20 ps RMS (typical).

Actually, my measurement was a bit higher (almost 5 ps), but that's because the lower bandwidth of the 800 series forced me to use a test signal with lower slew rate.

Here is my measurement for the SDS824X HD in Reply #2, Section "Trigger Jitter":
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sds800x-hd-review-demonstration-thread/msg5293747/#msg5293747

[Keysight DanielBogdanoff]

Or have the 'big boys' been caught napping, and are now about to find you can't charge £10k+ for obsolete hardware any more?

We're definitely not napping, and naturally we keep an eye on this part of the scopes market. There's a lot of technology "trickle down" that happens with our chip architectures (both processors and ADC/front ends). So, it's common for us to push the envelope with a super high end scope (like a UXR) and then leverage those learnings into the next chipsets.

On the chip front, you'll also see the "big boys" doing their own ICs but what's described in this thread as "B brands" are typically using off-the-shelf components and are stuck at that level of performance.

Ultimately I wouldn't call them "B brands" but personally think of them more as "value" brands. They will always be the cheapest for a given bandwidth, even if "A brands" dropped prices the "B brands" would undercut. But, if you buy one that's what you get. I could get an Ender 3 3d printer for $100, but there's a reason I paid 10x for my Bambu.

There is also what I think of as "market trickle up" - for example what options/capabilities are included as "standard." Back at release of this generation of Agilent/Keysight scopes you had to pay for options that are now standard, mostly due to market pressure of including certain decodes (for example) for free.

Personally, as someone who uses/has used basically all the scopes, using some brand's scopes annoys me...

[2N3055]

Personally, as someone who uses/has used basically all the scopes, using some brand's scopes annoys me...

Yep, I will sign that sentence !!

Good to hear from you!!

[AndyC_772]

Hi Daniel, thanks for stopping by, it's interesting to hear a manufacturer's viewpoint - and as you can hopefully tell, I'm still a big fan of my MSO-X3000A scopes. Until fairly recently, wouldn't have considered trading them for anything else. I've also recommended them to others who have gone on to purchase their own too, and as far as I know, they're very happy too.

However... I'm not sure I'd agree with your comment that it's the 'B' brands who are "stuck at that level of performance".

I've no doubt that when the current MegaZoom ASIC was developed, it was a state-of-the-art, fit for purpose solution to the problem of how to build a solid, responsive and reliable everyday bench scope. But that was really rather a long time ago now, and it's entirely reasonable to suggest that what may have needed an ASIC back then might be equally well done in an FPGA today.

Moreover, an ASIC is inherenltly a snapshot in time, lots of NRE and no real ability to incrementally improve it year on year, whereas with off-the-shelf components there's always the option to move to this year's hot new device, and provided it's still programmed in Verilog, VHDL, C, or whatever, that migration is much less costly.

I'd expect scopes made that way to get meaningfully more capable year on year, while those built on ASICs don't - and that's exactly what seems to have happened. If the 3000G series really is, as I've heard it described, "just the 3000T with APPBUNDL included", that's just a lick of paint and a tweak to the pricing structure - not really progress as such.

That pricing does warrant highlighting in the context of today's market. Whether the cost is in the options or the base price of the scope, 3000G is still priced way higher than, say, the new Siglent 3000X-HD for equivalent bandwidth. £5200 (call it £6k with the digital cable plus a few options for a typical configured unit) vs £17899 for 1GHz puts the Keysight at about 3x the price, for technology that must be 10 yrs old by now.

That, surely, warrants justification, and I think I'm right to ask if a 3000G is still a good choice for a small business.

As it happens, the (unopened) SDS804X-HD that's currently sitting on my desk was also about 1/3 the cost of the various Keysight 1000 series scopes we have dotted around the lab. (Coincidence?)

I don't doubt there's cool new stuff in the pipeline, but as a mere end-user I've not seen it yet. Something like a '3500G' series, based on the 3000G platform but updated with a 12 bit front end, 100 M points / channel, and priced at a level which isn't totally blind to what's been coming out of China the last few years? Sign me up.

[nctnico]

Still, one of the rather unique features of the Keysight oscilloscopes is that these can decode across segments. When recording a bunch of segments, the decode table shows data from all segments (with timestamps ofcourse!) in one so you can hop through the various segments with ease. On other oscilloscopes I've seen/used so far you'll need to go through each segment and look at the decoded data for that specific segment; there is typically not an easy way to aggregate all decoded data.

[2N3055]

Still, one of the rather unique features of the Keysight oscilloscopes is that these can decode across segments. When recording a bunch of segments, the decode table shows data from all segments in one so you can hop through the various segments. On other oscilloscopes I've seen/used so far you'll need to go through each segment and look at the decoded data for that specific segment; there is typically not an easy way to aggregate all decoded data.

That is a good point.
But if you need to do that a lot, Picoscope does that and to level no embedded scope does.

And for the price of MSOX 3104G you can buy several Siglent and Picoscope scopes(or whatever your favourite brand is) at the same time.

[Martin72]

Something like a '3500G' series, based on the 3000G platform but updated with a 12 bit front end, 100 M points / channel, and priced at a level which isn't totally blind to what's been coming out of China the last few years?

If you have dominated the market for decades together with 2...3 others, I can well imagine that you can react rather sluggishly to the cheaper competition from the East.
Or want to.
This wasn't necessary in the early years either, firstly because the quality of the devices didn't even come close to their own products, and secondly because they had a customer base.
But in the meantime, something has grown up that could cause problems for the major suppliers.
The future will show whether they will ignore this and continue to rely on their customer base, or whether they will actually be willing to counter it.
And we're not talking about ambitious hobbyists who want to invest more than €500.
For example, if I can get a Siglent 2000XHD/3000XHD today that is just as good as a scope that costs €10000....15000, then I don't have to think twice - as a company.
I had equipped our department with scopes that together cost as much as ONE Waverunner.
And we won't be the only ones who have done this or are thinking of doing so.
Can you afford to ignore the cheaper competition in the long term?

[Antonio90]

Something like a '3500G' series, based on the 3000G platform but updated with a 12 bit front end, 100 M points / channel, and priced at a level which isn't totally blind to what's been coming out of China the last few years?

Can you afford to ignore the cheaper competition in the long term?

That's a very interesting point. And raises the question as to why the price difference really.
As a company, buying for more than needed is shooting yourself in the foot, but relying fully on foreign production because it is cheaper is setting yourself up to be shot in the head later.

This would be a very good argument, I think, if it wasn't for the A brands moving production to the east too.

[nctnico]

Still, one of the rather unique features of the Keysight oscilloscopes is that these can decode across segments. When recording a bunch of segments, the decode table shows data from all segments in one so you can hop through the various segments. On other oscilloscopes I've seen/used so far you'll need to go through each segment and look at the decoded data for that specific segment; there is typically not an easy way to aggregate all decoded data.

That is a good point.
But if you need to do that a lot, Picoscope does that and to level no embedded scope does.

AFAIK Picoscope has no protocol triggering and when you need to do really long term decodes, then triggering is your first filtering stage to get rid of excess data. Think about debugging a rare (once in an hour or longer) problem with a specific device / access pattern on a I2C or SPI bus.

[nctnico]

Something like a '3500G' series, based on the 3000G platform but updated with a 12 bit front end, 100 M points / channel, and priced at a level which isn't totally blind to what's been coming out of China the last few years?

Can you afford to ignore the cheaper competition in the long term?

That's a very interesting point. And raises the question as to why the price difference really.

You pay for pedigree (as in having decades of knowledge on how to build particular test equipment), proper product/firmware regression testing and long term support. When I ask Keysight a really tough question about the internals of a piece of equipment I bought 10 years ago (in order to assess whether the quality of measurement results can be impacted by a potential failure) I get a good, detailed answer.

The price of test equipment is not in the hardware, it is in the engineering and support. All major test equipment manufacturers are producing in low wage countries.

[2N3055]

Still, one of the rather unique features of the Keysight oscilloscopes is that these can decode across segments. When recording a bunch of segments, the decode table shows data from all segments in one so you can hop through the various segments. On other oscilloscopes I've seen/used so far you'll need to go through each segment and look at the decoded data for that specific segment; there is typically not an easy way to aggregate all decoded data.

That is a good point.
But if you need to do that a lot, Picoscope does that and to level no embedded scope does.

AFAIK Picoscope has no protocol triggering and when you need to do really long term decodes, then triggering is your first filtering stage to get rid of excess data. Think about debugging a rare (once in an hour or longer) problem with a specific device / access pattern on a I2C or SPI bus.

You are correct. So doesn't Saelae.
But Picoscope can capture 10s of thousands of packets and filter them afterwards.

But one wrong packet in 2 hours is perfectly manageable without decoding across segments.
20-30 packets a day are handled with history and manual run through.

Segments + trigger mask are used when you have fast incoming packets, where you want to ignore millions and capture thousands.

[tszaboo]

Something like a '3500G' series, based on the 3000G platform but updated with a 12 bit front end, 100 M points / channel, and priced at a level which isn't totally blind to what's been coming out of China the last few years?

If you have dominated the market for decades together with 2...3 others, I can well imagine that you can react rather sluggishly to the cheaper competition from the East.
Or want to.

Honestly, why would they care about the low end market? They can sell an active probe with more profit on it than a DSOX1000 or 2000 scope, and people will buy those in pairs. Some high end several GHz ones will turn more profit than a dozen scope.

Something like a '3500G' series, based on the 3000G platform but updated with a 12 bit front end, 100 M points / channel, and priced at a level which isn't totally blind to what's been coming out of China the last few years?

Can you afford to ignore the cheaper competition in the long term?

That's a very interesting point. And raises the question as to why the price difference really.
As a company, buying for more than needed is shooting yourself in the foot, but relying fully on foreign production because it is cheaper is setting yourself up to be shot in the head later.

This would be a very good argument, I think, if it wasn't for the A brands moving production to the east too.

You compare the list price of a product to a price which is made with negotiations in mind.
If you need to buy an expensive scope you are either using taxpayer's money, and pay the list price because nobody cares. Or you are trying to make profit, and negotiate the price down from the list price.

[nctnico]

Have you had any luck trying to get the price down for a business purchase? I have not. In my experience list prices are pretty firm. Ofcourse you might get a good deal during a promotion, on a demo / older unit but other than that, list price it is.

[madires]

Keysight 33210A arb: encoder doesn't work properly after five years and again they are some custom thing made by I think Bourns. Replacement encoder price: astronomical (I don't remember exactly but it was around €180 for two lousy plastic encoder.)

And some people think optical encoders are expensive. This begs the question: Why aren't optical encoders chosen for the most frequently used knobs, at least for professional T&M devices?

[tszaboo]

Have you had any luck trying to get the price down for a business purchase? I have not. In my experience list prices are pretty firm. Ofcourse you might get a good deal during a promotion, on a demo / older unit but other than that, list price it is.

Somehow a a "refurbished" unit turns up always. Not for the cheap stuff usually.

[Martin72]

Honestly, why would they care about the low end market? They can sell an active probe with more profit on it than a DSOX1000 or 2000 scope, and people will buy those in pairs. Some high end several GHz ones will turn more profit than a dozen scope.

If they could only rely on the sale of these "rocket science scopes" in the 6-digit range, they wouldn't have the others.
And that's what it's all about, their price/performance ratio.
"Back then" you had no choice but to buy an expensive scope, no matter what you wanted to do with it, no matter how complex the task.
Now things are different and the question is whether you want to leave this "low-end" market to the others in the hope that enough expensive products can continue to be sold or not.
I don't know their economics to say they don't care about this market.
Teledyne Lecroy, on the other hand, has made it very easy for themselves with the sparsely masked Siglent products in their range.
But then I might as well buy the original.
The so-called "low end" market is nowadays dominated by brands such as Rigol and Siglent, which is already "gone".
But at least Siglent didn't stop there and with the 3000X HD and 6000A/Pro at the latest, they have models that can be placed in the mid-range market in terms of features and performance.
And yet both are still significantly cheaper than other brands in the sector and that would "worry" me as the top dog.
In addition, Siglent has made a start and secured a place in the upper house with the 7000A.
3Ghz, PC platform and for just under 20000€....

[pdenisowski]

The price of test equipment is not in the hardware, it is in the engineering and support.

Generally speaking, this is very true.  The higher you go (in frequency, performance, etc.) the great the impact of component cost. 

You also have to factor in manufacturing / assembly cost.  I worked with one particular product (not a scope) that a competitor of ours tried to copy.  After producing a few prototypes, they gave up when they realized that the real trick was the manufacturing process, not the parts themselves

All major test equipment manufacturers are producing in low wage countries.

Yes, but not exclusively.  We (R&S) still do quite a bit of manufacturing in Germany - touring our facilities is one of my favorite side-trips when I'm in Germany.

https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/career/professionals/manufacturing_253344.html

[pdenisowski]

Somehow a a "refurbished" unit turns up always. Not for the cheap stuff usually.

We (R&S) have a demo pool of equipment that we use for, well, demonstrations, and that also loans units to account managers, AEs, customers, etc. on a short- or long-term basis. All of these "demo" units are always for sale.  If you purchase one, it goes back to our service center for a refurb / cal and then is sent to the customer with the full factory warranty. This applies to both expensive and "value" instruments. 

And when I say all of our demo units are for sale, I really do mean all of them.  When I got one of our new NPA power analyzers pre-release, it already had a demo sales sticker on it

[hfleming]

All I can say, is that most of the cheap new stuff on the market blows the lid off from the brand names from not so long ago… spectrum analyzers, oscilloscopes and function generators… when I first used them in the 1980’s, the spectrum analyzer that I used at work (Tektronix 292) costed a lot more than my house. The tektronics oscilloscopes and function generators were not so much cheaper. At few years later we got the first DSO, that didn’t even have a vector display, just a bunch of dots that you had to join mentally in your mind (Nicolette XX). For the next bunch of years I used HP, Tektronix, R&s stuff that costed more than a house. 20 years ago the brand name DSO’s were still crap, always going back to my Tektronics 485 or later 2285 analogue scopes. Lately equipment like the cheap siglent DSO’s, function generators, Spectrum analyzers blows all the pro equipment out of the world that I used not so long ago in the lab. Onliest thing that remains very too pricey for a home lab is a decent RF-generator…. Would love to have But that is just my own opinion. Would love to have modern Keysight, R&S or Tektronix stuff in my home-lab, but can’t afford them, but even the budget stuff I have now still blows my mind compared to the very expensive stuff I used in a lab not so many years ago, IMHO.

[2N3055]

The price of test equipment is not in the hardware, it is in the engineering and support. All major test equipment manufacturers are producing in low wage countries.

This statement is interesting.

So you are saying that my 15000 USD Keysight is so expensive because of the support?
What support do you mean?

Warranty is same as others: return to repair/replace.

Do you mean call them for some support ?
Well you DON'T get that...
In warranty you get some few tickets on general level.

Their (by the way excellent to that matter) support you have to PAY for.

So I paid for support twice: once for overpriced hardware and then if I actually want support I have to pay for it...

That is your truth. What you are saying is simply not true anymore. It used to be.. But not anymore.

It pretty much a racket.

Not to mention that what they called support ticket was me reporting bugs.
Out of two, one was never fixed and never will be.
They should have paid ME for that...
They kept reminding me that these were two complementary "support requests" and that from that point on they will charge me by request..
Or I could get this affordable Support Contract.....

No, big brands have knowledge and if you have to use them for that, you can have it, but it will cost you  additional money.

So you are wrong.
You don't get any support included in very overpriced hardware price.
Only normal warranty like with any other manufacturer.

[nctnico]

I'm not wrong, your experience is just different. I have asked Keysight and Tektronix for support in the past and didn't need to have warranty or a limited number of tickets. I got my technical questions answered to a satisfactory level. It is simple as that. But I did make sure to be really clear, without adding any excess information, in describing the exact problem and what my exact question was.

[2N3055]

I'm not wrong, your experience is just different. I have asked Keysight and Tektronix for support in the past and didn't need to have warranty or a limited number of tickets. I got my technical questions answered to a satisfactory level. It is simple as that. But I did make sure to be really clear, without adding any excess information, in describing the exact problem and what my exact question was.

So you are implying it was my fault... Nice...

I don't know about Tek. But how recent is your Keysight experience?
Did you miss all the hubbub in last year or so about how they changed support structure and whole market approach...

[nctnico]

My most recent interaction with Keysight is from 2022

[tszaboo]

I'm not wrong, your experience is just different. I have asked Keysight and Tektronix for support in the past and didn't need to have warranty or a limited number of tickets. I got my technical questions answered to a satisfactory level. It is simple as that. But I did make sure to be really clear, without adding any excess information, in describing the exact problem and what my exact question was.

I've asked Keysight for a repair of a U8001 power supply. ~1000 EUR. As a company.
"We don't repair that, but we can provide you with a quote for a new one"
"Ok can you send me a service guide?"
"no, doesn't exist, do you want to buy a new power supply"
"I will, but somewhere else. " Ended up repairing it because all it was a blown SCR.

[2N3055]

My most recent interaction with Keysight is from 2022

That was when changes started..
Maybe your regional office did you a solid.
I find their employees on technical side generally very nice (when you manage to contact one).
Good people, but corporation is squeezing them down...

[H.O]

Personally, as someone who uses/has used basically all the scopes, using some brand's scopes annoys me...

Personally, as in someone who is not considered a "professional", being told to go away by some scopes brand's annoys me...

[madires]

I've asked Keysight for a repair of a U8001 power supply. ~1000 EUR. As a company.
"We don't repair that, but we can provide you with a quote for a new one"
"Ok can you send me a service guide?"
"no, doesn't exist, do you want to buy a new power supply"
"I will, but somewhere else. " Ended up repairing it because all it was a blown SCR.

The days of "excellent value" are gone. Most T&M vendors moved to profit maximization. We have to stop dreaming about what some brands meant in the past. Look at how they behave now and take this into account when buying new gear. If there's no additional real value, i.e. just paying for the brand name, then choose some other vendor.

[bdunham7]

On the chip front, you'll also see the "big boys" doing their own ICs but what's described in this thread as "B brands" are typically using off-the-shelf components and are stuck at that level of performance.

Rigol developed a whole line of custom ASICs for their scopes.

I could get an Ender 3 3d printer for $100, but there's a reason I paid 10x for my Bambu.

I got an Ender 3 Pro at Microcenter when they had that $100 special.  It's been living in a spare bedroom cranking out parts now for a couple of years with no issues to speak of.  YMMV!