Are 'premium' scope brands still justified?

[KungFuJosh]

How long have you owned the SDS2504X+?   I would say I am gentle, but I guess some equate to how fast I was turning the knob to using an electric drill.

I'm not apposed to buying another low cost product from Siglent to try it out.  My only concern is if it does have similar problems, their higher end products may behave completely different.  I had asked if their higher end Arbs would have the same problem.  I don't think I ever got an answer.

I've had the SDS2504X+ over 3 years, as it's out of warranty now. I've never had any problems with it.
Things that annoy me:
1. I don't like confirmation dialogs, the confirmations should be optional (in settings) but for both Auto set and Default, you have to either multi-hit the button, or click the confirmation. Not terrible, but annoying to me.
2. Until the last firmware update (which needs to be rereleased) there was a persistent confirmation after screenshots that needed to be clicked away (it's corrected / option in fw 1.6.2+).
3. I want to be able to change the trace color for XY mode, but it's currently stuck on an annoying blue, that at the very least, should be a brighter hue.
4. A common problem with Siglent Bode plot (nit picking) the Bode plot system is completely separate from the main system, so it's a little weird going back and forth and there's some options I wish that were persistent. Not a big deal, the Bode plots are great, but some minor improvements would be nice.

I've owned the SDG2122X for longer than that, and I never had issues with that either. The rotary on the SDG does not feel as nice as the rotaries on the scope, but it has never failed me either. Full disclosure though, I use that specific SDG rotary less than I use the numeric keypad and other buttons.

My guess would be that your issue is more likely QC than anything else. Thousands of parts go out, some of them suck. But like I said, it doesn't feel as nice as the scope rotaries.

I agree with you, getting a lower end scope probably doesn't give you a good comparison of the hardware; I don't know if they use the same encoders or not, but I assume not until somebody says otherwise.

I think you should contact Siglent for a loaner so you can properly put it through its paces. Or ask if you can purchase it with an extended return period (60 or 90 days?) so you can properly test it, review it, and decide if you want to keep it.

Getting the 800 series stuff would probably still be fun, but I don't think it's remotely close to a taste of the 7000 series. I have absolutely no need for another scope, but I still had to stop myself from ordering the 800 a couple times. Stupid TEAS. 🙄

Thanks,
Josh

[joeqsmith]

The encoders on my SDG2042 X "works". It does not register all clicks but it does not jump back and forth.

I could live with the skips but that back and forth makes it unusable.    Talking with others, if it is a bad encoder out of the box tells me they don't test them.  Worse, they had a several get out with bad encoders as it seems like a common problem.  Enough so that they made changes to the firmware to attempt to address it.   

I have a HP33120A that I bought new when it was first introduced.  So far the encoder is flawless.  Same for my Marconi 2024 and my Tektronix (Sony) arb.  All of my scopes are also very old and the encoders on the two newer LeCroys have not had any problem.   All of that equipment is 20 years old, or older. 

My first LeCroy DSO behaves similar to the Siglent arb where some of the encoders on the chassis (mainframe system) are jumping back and forth.  Consider that scope is another 10 years old and was used by the USAF.  After so many years of service, I expect problems but that Siglent was a problem brand new out of the box.

Good to hear their scopes don't appear to have this problem.   Again, I am not apposed to looking at another Siglent product but $20k seems like a high risk. 

[KungFuJosh]

Good to hear their scopes don't appear to have this problem.   Again, I am not apposed to looking at another Siglent product but $20k seems like a high risk.

Buying a new scope is certainly a risk, but for what it does, it's a fraction of the cost risk as other brands. Only you know what you actually need. If you think a 2000 HD or 3000 HD would be sufficient, then go that way for much less money. Or try out that new scope from Batronix when it's available. 😉

[joeqsmith]

...
I think you should contact Siglent for a loaner so you can properly put it through its paces. Or ask if you can purchase it with an extended return period (60 or 90 days?) so you can properly test it, review it, and decide if you want to keep it.

Getting the 800 series stuff would probably still be fun, but I don't think it's remotely close to a taste of the 7000 series. I have absolutely no need for another scope,...

The 800 is cheap enough, I wouldn't worry about getting a loaner or returns.  The 7000 is a different story.  Even if I had more confidence in the brand, it's enough cash I would want to take for a test drive.  It's a bit overkill though for my general use.  For the most part, I like that old WaveBlunder but it is no longer reliable.   

[KungFuJosh]

The 800 is cheap enough, I wouldn't worry about getting a loaner or returns.  The 7000 is a different story.  Even if I had more confidence in the brand, it's enough cash I would want to take for a test drive.  It's a bit overkill though for my general use.  For the most part, I like that old WaveBlunder but it is no longer reliable.

The 800 is good for some stuff, but it's max 200MHz, lower specs, less triggers, etc. You could probably get a loaner for even the 2000 or 3000 stuff (eventually). If you need 1GHz, 3000 series is your starting place.

[AndyC_772]

I've had issues with rotary encoders on both Tek and Agilent scopes. I'd have expected that they'd be optical, with nothing to wear out, but clearly that's not the case even on those brands.

With that in mind, if Siglent's encoders are a bit rubbish too, I doubt I'd even register it as an issue.

[Martin72]

I found the encoders on the SDS2000X HD to be of much higher quality than on the SDS2000X plus.
But this could also have been due to the clicking noise.
No, the overall feel was simply of a higher quality, and I'm not talking about the aluminum handle.

[joeqsmith]

The 800 is good for some stuff, but it's max 200MHz, lower specs, less triggers, etc. You could probably get a loaner for even the 2000 or 3000 stuff (eventually). If you need 1GHz, 3000 series is your starting place.

The 800 would only be for evaluating a second Siglent product.   Needs were outlined in my other thread but really only looking for 500MHz or so BW.   Nothing special.   

[KungFuJosh]

The 800 is good for some stuff, but it's max 200MHz, lower specs, less triggers, etc. You could probably get a loaner for even the 2000 or 3000 stuff (eventually). If you need 1GHz, 3000 series is your starting place.

The 800 would only be for evaluating a second Siglent product.   Needs were outlined in my other thread but really only looking for 500MHz or so BW.   Nothing special.

I only mentioned the 1G because you said earlier "the rare occasions when I need 1GHz..."

I assume the 800 is great, but I don't think it will give you a valid idea of the higher end quality. I think my Plus model is great, and Martin who previously owned both the Plus and the HD thought the HD was much better, and now he's waiting for a 3000.

I think if 500MHz is enough for you, then the 2000 with the sale bundle is a killer deal. Your skill level is well above mine, so check the specs for yourself. 😉

[tautech]

The 800 is good for some stuff, but it's max 200MHz, lower specs, less triggers, etc. You could probably get a loaner for even the 2000 or 3000 stuff (eventually). If you need 1GHz, 3000 series is your starting place.

The 800 would only be for evaluating a second Siglent product.   Needs were outlined in my other thread but really only looking for 500MHz or so BW.   Nothing special.

FYI
The larger 12" display versions SDS6000A start from 500 MHz and under 1/2 the cost of 15" 3 GHz 12bit SDS7304A.
The 2 GHz SDS6204A I have is still just a little more than 1/2 the cost of SDS7304A.

[joeqsmith]

I only mentioned the 1G because you said earlier "the rare occasions when I need 1GHz..."

I assume the 800 is great, but I don't think it will give you a valid idea of the higher end quality. I think my Plus model is great, and Martin who previously owned both the Plus and the HD thought the HD was much better, and now he's waiting for a 3000.

I think if 500MHz is enough for you, then the 2000 with the sale bundle is a killer deal. Your skill level is well above mine, so check the specs for yourself. 😉

Sorry but I have no idea about the rare occasions comment.   Maybe a blackout drunk post but the search engine failed to locate anything.   

I do have the WaveMaster which is rated for 5G 20Gs.  Also my first DSO which is 4G BW but RIS only.   I wouldn't mind having a newer scope that ups the BW with 40Gs but even in the used market, I doubt I would swing it. 

Really just looking to replace my daily driver.   500MHz, decent buffer, fast offload of data, good size screen, lower heat, faster warmup...   I could swing a decent new mid range scope.  Figure for the cost, this is now about the sweet spot where it makes less sense to look at used.   

[Martin72]

Martin who previously owned both the Plus and the HD thought the HD was much better, and now he's waiting for a 3000.

Knowing, not thinking.
But not much better, more better...
If I remember correctly, joeqsmith has a WavePro, albeit an older one, at the start.
From my own experience, I know that anything less than a 2000X HD wouldn't make sense.
Actually nothing under an SDS6000*.
And if, like me, he appreciates the multi-grid function of a Lecroy, then not even that.


*) It's no longer a secret that the 3000X HD has a lot in common with the 6000, so perhaps that could play a role again.

[2N3055]

SDS3000xHD has 1Gb Ethernet and network is very fast. It saves bin data at pretty much Ethernet speed (90-100 MBytes per sec)

[Demon Xanth]

Having used Tektronix scopes all the way up to an MDO4104, my take is this:
If you need the high end features such as active probes and the like, and you have the budget, go there.

Otherwise, I'm astonishingly happy with my Rigol DHO804 (914). Much more happy than I am with my Micsig ATO1104. The biggest issue I have is finding things in menus, but that's more of a familiarity thing. Especially as feature count has grown. They don't feel like toys or companies pushing things that sorta work anymore. If you put a Tek DPO4104 and my Rigol DHO804 in front of me and the signals were less than 100MHz, I'd use the Rigol. But if I had to measure an impedance critical signal where I need to use a FET probe...well...then the Rigol isn't going to cut it.

Scopes I personally own:
HP 1200B
Tek 222
Miniware DS213
Hantek 2D72
Micsig ATO1104
Rigol DHO804
Digilent AD2

[KungFuJosh]

Sorry but I have no idea about the rare occasions comment.   Maybe a blackout drunk post but the search engine failed to locate anything.   

My bad, that was the OP, not you.

Knowing, not thinking.

Same thing. 😉

[MarkL]

I don't think I've ever - and I mean *ever*, in 10+ years of daily professional use - come across a bug in my MSO-X3104A. Whatever and wherever they may be, they're minor and obscure enough not to be an issue at all. That's a phenomenal achievement.

You can review their bug fix lists for each firmware release in their log: https://www.keysight.com/us/en/assets/9924-01108/release-notes/Keysight-2000A-3000A-X-Series-Oscilloscope-Release-Notes-02-66.pdf?success=true

Some of those bugs would be critical for some users. But they fixed them, as expected of any quality brand. A slightly more critical hardware bug: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/msox3104a-fails-to-boot/

I've submitted at least a half dozen bugs on my MSO-X3104A over the last 12 years I've been using it.  They've all been fixed at this point, but only two of them showed up in the Release Notes and one of them (not listed) took almost 3 years.  My point being, don't read too much about quality into the small list of fixed bugs in the Release Notes.

[joeqsmith]

...
If I remember correctly, joeqsmith has a WavePro, albeit an older one, at the start.
From my own experience, I know that anything less than a 2000X HD wouldn't make sense.
Actually nothing under an SDS6000*.
And if, like me, he appreciates the multi-grid function of a Lecroy, then not even that.
...

Had an old WavePro 7300 at the house to upgrade to XP a few years ago.  Nice scope.  A bit overkill for my general purpose use.

Indeed,  I do like the multi-display.   For that matter, I like the way these old scope drive in general.   

[KungFuJosh]

I've submitted at least a half dozen bugs on my MSO-X3104A over the last 12 years I've been using it.  They've all been fixed at this point, but only two of them showed up in the Release Notes and one of them (not listed) took almost 3 years.  My point being, don't read too much about quality into the small list of fixed bugs in the Release Notes.

My post wasn't specifically about quality, but a track record of making bug fixes, even when some people think their scope might be bug free. Also that they do fix bugs, which not all brands are good about.

[joeqsmith]

I do have the WaveMaster which is rated for 5G 20Gs.  Also my first DSO which is 4G BW but RIS only.   I wouldn't mind having a newer scope that ups the BW with 40Gs but even in the used market, I doubt I would swing it. 

Thinking of high speed, I should have mentioned that SJL provided me with one of their 4-channel pocket oscilloscopes which they spec for 6G.   Tr measures close to 35ps.  Like my first DSO, it is also a sampling design (requires a repetitive signal).  SJL continues to develop the software/firmware/hardware and the scope has greatly improved since I first received it.   There are other oddities due to the architecture which further limit it's use, but if you are looking for a low cost solution to look at say 2-state digital signals,  it may be a good fit.   It's a well made product.     

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/pocket-sized-6-ghz-1-tss-et-scope/

[Performa01]

From the Siglent catalog, I would recommend the SDS3000X HD – even though I don’t have one myself, but @2N3055 can comment on it. Reasons are that it is a midrange instrument with all the goodies that one might expect, and it is 12 bits and provides fast gigabit ethernet on top of that. Furthermore, since you want 500 MHz bandwidth, this instrument can easily deliver it on all four channels at the same time.

My current darling MSO is the SDS2504X HD, partly because it is almost inaudible, yet it can handle 500 MHz (570 actually) only in half channel mode, i.e. only 2 channels on different ADCs active. It also lacks some midrange features like an active probe interface. That’s why I’d recommend the SDS3000X HD.

The SDS6000A is great in principle, but also a bit older and it was a co-development with LeCroy. All this shows also in the 100 Mbps Ethernet interface and the fact that even though it has four 12-bit ADCs, it can only be sold as 8-bit version outside of China. And there is also no way hacking it, because ADC calibration is only for 8 bits.

Evaluating an 800X HD series at first might be an option indeed. Sure, it is a different class, but most seasoned engineers tend to conclude that this little thing might compare well in certain areas against the scope they have used so far and it’s only missing the obvious midrange goodies, like bigger screen with higher resolution, active probe interface, higher bandwidth and sample rate. Those who aren’t familiar with LeCroy, might even discover new analytical capabilities, even though (especially) the 800 series lacks quite a bit in this regard when compared to the 2000 or higher series.

[Martin72]

Evaluating an 800X HD series at first might be an option indeed

I've had the SDS800X HD here for just over a month now, as a "stopgap" until the SDS3034X HD finally arrives....
This is by far the "best" oscilloscope you can get for around €500.
There is nothing comparable on the market and not so long ago I would have said that's it, that's all you need as a hobbyist.
But I know/had the 2000Xplus and most recently the 2000X HD, so I'm a bit biased.
However, it is ideal for testing whether you might like Siglent's "philosophy" in general.

[ebastler]

There is nothing comparable on the market and not so long ago I would have said that's it, that's all you need as a hobbyist.
But I know/had the 2000Xplus and most recently the 2000X HD, so I'm a bit biased.

The word you're looking for is "spoiled". 

[Martin72]

That can also be the case.

[2N3055]

There is nothing comparable on the market and not so long ago I would have said that's it, that's all you need as a hobbyist.
But I know/had the 2000Xplus and most recently the 2000X HD, so I'm a bit biased.

The word you're looking for is "spoiled". 

Politically correct term would be connoisseur ...

[Martin72]

Although I have to say, after a little thought, I would have to cancel the 2000Xplus again, a clear improvement on the 800X HD would in fact only be the 2000X HD.
There is nothing in between, not even the 1000X HD.
Main reason:
Guess what...