Author Topic: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...  (Read 22868 times)

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Online tautech

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Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #50 on: January 14, 2019, 09:06:38 am »
A few surprises:

2 Mpts FFT !
Inbuilt DVM and 1 GHz 7-digit frequency counter.
Math on Math.
Noise distribution Histograms.
Full BW down to 2.45mV/div, then BW limited to 200 MHz. (corrected)
User definable Zone Trigger.
Qualified Trigger: Hold off by Events or Time

Overview, PowerPoint slideshow download (10 MB):
https://mega.nz/#%21S40UAYbA%21EmaqcMfk3ve7OV6wNa6cXjTJhOYdq_14BlLivSjrDok
(sorry, a download once only link  :( )
See my reply below.

US Pricing:
SDS5032X   $ 2899   (350 MHz)
SDS5034X   $ 3569
SDS5052X   $ 5289   (500 MHz)
SDS5054X   $ 5689
SDS5102X   $ 5999   (1 GHz)
SDS5104X   $ 7289

MSO Logic probe and SW license $ 798
1 GHz active probe $ 999
CAN FD, FlexRay, I2S and MIL-STD-1553B triggering suite and decoder: $329 ea.

Release date unspecified, ~7 days.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2019, 09:25:13 pm by tautech »
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Online 2N3055

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Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #51 on: January 14, 2019, 10:37:47 am »
Tautech,

Presentation link doesn't work..

 

Online tautech

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Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #52 on: January 14, 2019, 10:54:10 am »
Tautech,

Presentation link doesn't work..
Oh bugger, it must have been a 'download once' link !  :(

Open invitation to PM me email addresses and I'll attach it to a reply. (NO spam ever sent !)
« Last Edit: January 14, 2019, 09:26:45 pm by tautech »
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Offline Performa01

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Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #53 on: January 14, 2019, 11:00:13 am »
A few surprises:

2 Mpts FFT !
Inbuilt DVM and 1 GHz 7-digit frequency counter.
Math on Math.
Noise distribution Histograms.
Full BW 500uV/div.
User definable Zone Trigger.
Qualified Trigger: Hold off by Events or Time
A few clarifications:

- Histicons in the measurement statistics (can be enlarged in a separate window)
- Dedicated vertical or horizontal histogram
- 200MHz BW-limit for the high sensitivities <2.45mV/div (it's in the fine print!)
- Zone Trigger and Qualified Trigger
- Holdoff by Time or by Event (relative to acquisition start or last trigger time) as an addition to all applicable triggers, vastly increasing their versatility

plus:
- Cycle to Cycle Jitter measurement, for this the precision and accuracy of time period measurements has been vastly improved down to single digit picosecond level
- Mask Test in the zoom window
- Zoom window as optional input source for Math and Measurements
- Comprehensive Online Help (English only)
- Integrated Web Server even better than on SDS1004X-E

... and a lot more to be added after the introduction.
 
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Offline simone.pignatti

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Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #54 on: January 14, 2019, 12:15:53 pm »
important to say the 350MHz can not be upgraded to 1GHz
IDEA OF EURO PRICING VAT NOT INCLUDED - WILL ADJUST THEM ON THE 28TH
SDS5032X ... €2.500
SDS5034X ... €2.900
SDS5052X ... €4.600
SDS5054X ... €5.000
SDS5102X ... €5.300
SDS5104X ... €6.500

attached is Histogram and Trend diagrams display
« Last Edit: January 14, 2019, 12:41:55 pm by simone.pignatti »
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Online tautech

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Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #55 on: January 16, 2019, 02:41:30 am »
I now have a smaller 6 MB SDS5000X Introduction pdf if anyone wants it.
Appears to be identical to the 10 MB PPT offered above.

So the choice is now PPT or PDF, your call.
Email required via PM.
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Offline simone.pignatti

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Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #56 on: January 18, 2019, 05:05:14 pm »
here is a picture of the 1GHz active probe Siglent SAP1000
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Offline JPortici

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Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #57 on: January 25, 2019, 12:19:15 pm »
This morning gianmarco from batterfly came to the office so we couod try the sds5000x.

Damn, i was really impressed. Even though some things need refinement (like that it wasn't obvious how to set up zone trigger, auto thresholds for decoders and such things) the funcionality is there. Not sure if some things were working as intended (i expect clear to clear all the screen and not only the persistence) I saw some things that some people may call glitches but really aren't (reduce the timebase, for a moment you may see a cropped waveform.. but it's obviously because there is no data to display and it defaults to zero! Fine by me)

Other pros:
Very quiet.
Very fast interface, even if i enabled literally every function available.
Math on math is always nice.
Never froze or hung up.
Like the screen very much.
Resonably fast to boot (i think 30 seconds?)

Some cons:
They should display decoders like how R&S does. Or at least some color coding.. see lecroy and picoscope.
Some things needs refinement in the decoder section. XY with more options (for now it's like in the dark age, ch1 and ch2 only).
It appears it doesn't save the event table to file, only waveform data or screenshot or setup.
Plus other little things i already passed up

But all in all a great instrument, working as intended from day one. And if some of the enhancements i proposed will get implemented.. it will be software wise on about the same level as a lecroy 4000. Given the price it's really something. IMHO it's already the best of the chinese scopes.

We also had a little contest with a RTB2000, we wanted to see which decoder would crap out first. It was the RTB, even if it was sampling at a higher rate.
The DUT was an I2C bus drawing a framebuffer on an I2C small oled, at a non standard 800kHz (i had that laying around). The non standard frwquency could have upset the hardware decoder in the R&S but i didn't  have the time to load the project and change it so take the result with a pinch :)

 

Offline nctnico

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Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #58 on: January 26, 2019, 10:46:05 pm »
Just wondering. Is the firmware based on the firmware used on other models? It would be good if it is so features & fixes can be applied across the entire line. A head-to-head comparison with the Rigol MSO5000 would be nice as well. Then again based on your list with cons the firmware doesn't seem to be completely finished yet.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline simone.pignatti

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Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #59 on: January 27, 2019, 09:25:38 am »
Just wondering. Is the firmware based on the firmware used on other models? It would be good if it is so features & fixes can be applied across the entire line. A head-to-head comparison with the Rigol MSO5000 would be nice as well. Then again based on your list with cons the firmware doesn't seem to be completely finished yet.
The SDS5104X FW version was SDS5000X-V0.7.9R1 (RTB had 02.202) . I'm not quite sure this will be the official one on the first batch of stock units, we will discover this soon.
Yes comparing with other models will be nice, just need to find the time for it :(
« Last Edit: January 27, 2019, 09:27:45 am by simone.pignatti »
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Offline Performa01

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Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #60 on: January 27, 2019, 12:15:46 pm »
The SDS5104X FW version was SDS5000X-V0.7.9R1 (RTB had 02.202) . I'm not quite sure this will be the official one on the first batch of stock units, we will discover this soon.
 
Certainly not. Release FW will be V0.8.xxx

Damn, i was really impressed. Even though some things need refinement (like that it wasn't obvious how to set up zone trigger, auto thresholds for decoders and such things) the funcionality is there.
Zone trigger works in combination with the existing triggers and helps to define additional criteria in order to get an ambiguous trigger condition unique, hence stable. The definition of the trigger zones might be a bit tricky, but I think with a little practice we can get used to that. I personally prefer to set up a zone trigger in Stop or even History mode, so that I can select a single acquisition that I’d like to make stable.

Here’s a made-up example. First just edge trigger, this certainly doesn’t define a stable trigger condition:


SDS5104X_Trig_Edge

With an additional “non-intersect” zone everything is fine:


SDS5104X_Trig_Zone2

Not sure if some things were working as intended (i expect clear to clear all the screen and not only the persistence) I saw some things that some people may call glitches but really aren't (reduce the timebase, for a moment you may see a cropped waveform.. but it's obviously because there is no data to display and it defaults to zero! Fine by me)
The button on the front panel is labelled “Clear Sweeps” and it is not the same as [Clear Screen], which can be found in the Display menu. Clear Sweeps deletes all traces on the display except for the most recent acquisition, it also resets persistence, measurement statistics, Roll mode, Averages in FFT – and sure a couple more things I forgot to mention. It is a very frequently used function, hence the dedicated physical button. I don’t think that I’ve ever really missed the [Clear Screen] function, but it’s there for those who do.

Other pros:
Very quiet.
Very fast interface, even if i enabled literally every function available.
Math on math is always nice.
Never froze or hung up.
Like the screen very much.
Resonably fast to boot (i think 30 seconds?)

Some cons:
They should display decoders like how R&S does. Or at least some color coding.. see lecroy and picoscope.
Some things needs refinement in the decoder section. XY with more options (for now it's like in the dark age, ch1 and ch2 only).
It appears it doesn't save the event table to file, only waveform data or screenshot or setup.
Plus other little things i already passed up

But all in all a great instrument, working as intended from day one. And if some of the enhancements i proposed will get implemented.. it will be software wise on about the same level as a lecroy 4000. Given the price it's really something. IMHO it's already the best of the chinese scopes.
Glad you like it already - as I’ve mentioned in an earlier post, there’s a long list of features yet to come.
But similar to some other big brand, the Siglent SDS5000X will be introduced now, even though it will probably take at least one more year until it can reach the “feature complete” state. And this needs not be the end - Siglent has always been open for requests from competent folks.

The X/Y mode is already more than just a basic emulation, it is hardware accelerated, thus very fast and provides most of the functionality of the Y-t mode, including intensity grading, persistence and history. Nevertheless there is an open request for XYZ mode – glad if you are supporting this request too!

Regarding the “other little things”, rest assured that they are seriously considered – and some priorities might have even changed because of that ;)
 
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Offline JPortici

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Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #61 on: January 27, 2019, 12:57:42 pm »
A head-to-head comparison with the Rigol MSO5000 would be nice as well. Then again based on your list with cons the firmware doesn't seem to be completely finished yet.

Not completely finished, but completely usable. If anything, it didn't crash or reboot, yet.
I didn't have time to play with it for more than a couple of hours but me and gianmarco wrote down a list of things that could be improved in the interface and that shouldn't be too difficult to implement if they get approved.
 

Online 2N3055

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Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #62 on: January 27, 2019, 01:55:51 pm »
Just wondering. Is the firmware based on the firmware used on other models? It would be good if it is so features & fixes can be applied across the entire line. A head-to-head comparison with the Rigol MSO5000 would be nice as well. Then again based on your list with cons the firmware doesn't seem to be completely finished yet.

Well, it is a 1GHz scope, so comparison with at least Rigol MSO/DS7000 ( or the new one yet to be released 1GHZ scope from Rigol) would be more appropriate.

From what I can see, SDS5000X seem to have better analog front end (sensitivity and noise), better concept of GUI (better usage of screen), better concept of history buffers and segmented memory in general.
They are nicely shaping up to be affordable alternative to LeCroy or R&S type scopes. Rigol seems to model it's products after different concept, and frankly I find Siglent's approach both more modern and more usable.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #63 on: January 27, 2019, 02:48:09 pm »
Just wondering. Is the firmware based on the firmware used on other models? It would be good if it is so features & fixes can be applied across the entire line. A head-to-head comparison with the Rigol MSO5000 would be nice as well. Then again based on your list with cons the firmware doesn't seem to be completely finished yet.

Well, it is a 1GHz scope, so comparison with at least Rigol MSO/DS7000 ( or the new one yet to be released 1GHZ scope from Rigol) would be more appropriate.

From what I can see, SDS5000X seem to have better analog front end (sensitivity and noise), better concept of GUI (better usage of screen), better concept of history buffers and segmented memory in general.
They are nicely shaping up to be affordable alternative to LeCroy or R&S type scopes. Rigol seems to model it's products after different concept, and frankly I find Siglent's approach both more modern and more usable.
It all comes down to how useable (*) it is when released. So far non of the A-brands considers Siglent a competitor. It seems Siglent has taken testing more seriously by pre-releasing units to beta testers and listening to their feedback. That is a big step forward towards entering the professional market succesfully. Looking forward to see how this unfolds.

*  Equals to: do most of the features actually work as advertised and no show-stopper bugs.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2019, 02:50:54 pm by nctnico »
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Online 2N3055

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Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #64 on: January 27, 2019, 02:54:10 pm »

It all comes down to how useable (*) it is when released. So far non of the A-brands considers Siglent a competitor. It seems Siglent has taken testing more seriously by pre-releasing units to beta testers and listening to their feedback. That is a big step forward towards entering the professional market succesfully. Looking forward to see how this unfolds.

*  Equals to: do most of the features actually work as advertised and no show-stopper bugs.

I agree with everything.
 

Offline 0xdeadbeef

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Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #65 on: January 27, 2019, 03:38:38 pm »
I understand that the probe interface is not Lecroy's ProBus, even though it looks similar. While understandable (from LeCroy's point of view), this is a bit disappointing  since being able to use older active Lecroy probes from eBay would be a big advantage. I wonder if there will be at least adapters for stuff like ProBus and TekProbe. E.g. there's TekProbe adapter for the bigger Rigol scopes (like DS7000) which is at least better than being limited just to a active probes from a B-brand which however cost nearly as much as  from an A-brand even though the resell value is just a fraction of that.

[EDIT]
The datasheet seems to float around already (4.5MB):
https://www.foldertrade.hu/download/SDS5000X.pdf
« Last Edit: January 27, 2019, 03:44:51 pm by 0xdeadbeef »
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Offline klaus11

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Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #66 on: January 27, 2019, 04:35:52 pm »
Maybe a change towards rubber knobs in white or grey neutral color.
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Offline 0xdeadbeef

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Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #67 on: January 27, 2019, 07:08:40 pm »
Something somewhat disappointing I noticed in the datasheet is that the bandwidth is limited to 200MHz for anything below and including the 1mV/div range (350MHz model) or even below and including 2.45 mV/div for the 500MHz and 1GHz models. For comparison, the R&S RTB2K has full bandwidth down to the 1mv/div range and the RTM3K down to the 500µV/div range. As far as I can tell, even the Lecroy WS3K scopes have full bandwidth for all voltage ranges (at least I can't find any limitation mentioned in their specs).
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Offline maginnovision

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Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #68 on: January 27, 2019, 07:25:07 pm »
Something somewhat disappointing I noticed in the datasheet is that the bandwidth is limited to 200MHz for anything below and including the 1mV/div range (350MHz model) or even below and including 2.45 mV/div for the 500MHz and 1GHz models. For comparison, the R&S RTB2K has full bandwidth down to the 1mv/div range and the RTM3K down to the 500µV/div range. As far as I can tell, even the Lecroy WS3K scopes have full bandwidth for all voltage ranges (at least I can't find any limitation mentioned in their specs).

That's one way to keep the noisy front end from causing issues. At least it's pretty decent otherwise. Actually I'm kind of surprised it has less memory than my scope(I have the ext mem option though). Granted the siglent has it all available no matter what where the RTB you can only make full use of it using segmented mode. The ch-ch isolation also seems a little low for this class of instrument? So many little details that make me  ???
« Last Edit: January 27, 2019, 07:48:10 pm by maginnovision »
 

Online tautech

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Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #69 on: January 27, 2019, 07:27:13 pm »
Maybe a change towards rubber knobs in white or grey neutral color.
The knobs look the same as those used in SDS2kX series and are rubberized. They are much nicer than the plain plastic used in Siglent's other DSO's.
In a SDS2304X I had with some 400 starts, the grip on the knobs was still excellent when I sold it.

Occasionally when doing a lot of Multipurpose knob work I would swap one of the larger knobs onto it for finer control but with the SDS5kX having a touch display and virtual keypads I doubt there will be need for that old trick.
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Offline simone.pignatti

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Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #70 on: January 27, 2019, 10:38:22 pm »
only thing I have to say ... sorry for my voice!

https://youtu.be/CyHuq0ULiNo
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Offline 0xdeadbeef

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Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #71 on: January 27, 2019, 11:05:58 pm »
It's a shame they didn't learn from LeCroy how design a top notch frontend. Everything else looks pretty much promising.
I guess there are no advanced search/analysis features either like "WaveScan" on the LeCroys.
Still, despite of some drawbacks, this sure looks like interesting entry in the 500MHz/1GHz area where at the moment there's simply nothing in this price class (without hacking etc.).
Let's hope they don't mess anything major up.
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Offline Performa01

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Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #72 on: January 27, 2019, 11:18:08 pm »
Actually I'm kind of surprised it has less memory than my scope(I have the ext mem option though).
I would be interesting what scope you have that provides more than 2x250Mpts resp. 4x125Mpts = 500Mpts total, even with an extended memory option?

The ch-ch isolation also seems a little low for this class of instrument? So many little details that make me  ???
Maybe you should take into account that e.g. R&S RTM3000 claims >50dB channel isolation only for equal sensitivities on each input channel?
Some of Siglent's specifications are painfully conservative - Offset accuracy is another example.
 
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Offline maginnovision

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Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #73 on: January 27, 2019, 11:27:58 pm »
Actually I'm kind of surprised it has less memory than my scope(I have the ext mem option though).
I would be interesting what scope you have that provides more than 2x250Mpts resp. 4x125Mpts = 500Mpts total, even with an extended memory option?

The ch-ch isolation also seems a little low for this class of instrument? So many little details that make me  ???
Maybe you should take into account that e.g. R&S RTM3000 claims >50dB channel isolation only for equal sensitivities on each input channel?
Some of Siglent's specifications are painfully conservative - Offset accuracy is another example.

The RTB2K with History(ext mem) has 160 x 4(320 x 2) Mpts. Not sure about siglent but you get the same memory for logic also but that's not really 1:1. The RTM has something like 200 x 4Mpts. You can say they're conservative but the datasheet says what it says.  :-//

That wasn't the only example of odd things it was just one that stood out enough for me to query about. If I were still looking at the datasheet I could ask you more but I just started working so can't right now. One thing I did notice is the timebase accuracy is very good. Actually thinking about segmented memory reminded me... The Siglent was something like 2us and the RTM is 200ns between acqs, that's pretty significant.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2019, 11:48:35 pm by maginnovision »
 

Offline 0xdeadbeef

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Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #74 on: January 28, 2019, 05:31:34 pm »
Batronix has them in stock now. The SDS5054X sells for 5901.21€. At least this sounds somewhat more realistic than the (insane) ~9758€ Rigol asks for a DS7054 (which doesn't even have an MSO option). Then again, my understanding is that the  Rigol DS7014 could be currently "upgraded" to a DS7054, so this comparison is a bit off anyway.
So let's see if there will be some kind of promotion or whatever. I still think that 6k€ is too much for a Siglent with so-so frontend and much worse support, probe availability and resell value compared to an A brand.
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