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Products => Test Equipment => Topic started by: peteb2 on March 15, 2018, 06:16:22 pm

Title: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: peteb2 on March 15, 2018, 06:16:22 pm
or a bit of You Tube of it at least..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n95uLxkGDrU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n95uLxkGDrU) :)
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tautech on March 15, 2018, 07:59:21 pm
Great work finding this Pete.  :-+
This 500 MHz unit will be a mid BW model in this new SDS5000X range I strongly suspect.

WRT comments on AWG, Siglent may be choosing to use the external SAG1021 module as they do for the SDS10004X-E series. That unit is USB powered and controlled in the scope UI.
https://www.siglentamerica.com/accessory/sag1021/ (https://www.siglentamerica.com/accessory/sag1021/)

The front panel rectangular socket looks identical to that on the SDS2kX models and it's the MSO/LA pod receptacle.
The SDS2kX uses SPL2016 LA HW:
https://siglentna-qwavztc8hvq2w.stackpathdns.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/PARTS-LIST_SPL2016.pdf (https://siglentna-qwavztc8hvq2w.stackpathdns.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/PARTS-LIST_SPL2016.pdf)

The vid maker obviously isn't aware of Siglent's longstanding participation with LeCroy and their joint venture of the WS/SDS3000 series that each have rights for in Western/Eastern markets respectively.
These 3000 models have been around for some years now and offered BW's to 1GHz.

Release info:
https://www.siglentamerica.com/digital-oscilloscopes/sds5000x/ (https://www.siglentamerica.com/digital-oscilloscopes/sds5000x/)
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: JPortici on March 15, 2018, 08:12:36 pm
they either learned a lot from lecroy or this is going to be a rebadged by lecroy as well.
perhaps with adequate horsepower for today ::)

look at the probus-style BNCs and the user interface!

genuinely curious :)
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tautech on March 15, 2018, 08:21:01 pm
they either learned a lot from lecroy or this is going to be a rebadge as well.
Sorry for your misunderstanding but no Siglents are rebadges !
They make all their own HW !

These SDS5kX models have been under development for at least a couple of years that I'm aware of.  :-X
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: JPortici on March 15, 2018, 08:22:42 pm
Sorry for your misunderstanding but no Siglents are rebadges !

aah i meant it the other way around!!! that maybe lecroy's going to rebadge it!

These SDS5kX models have been under development for at least a couple of years that I'm aware of.  :-X

And i appreciated what i've seen in this very brief video
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: nctnico on March 15, 2018, 09:01:54 pm
they either learned a lot from lecroy or this is going to be a rebadged by lecroy as well.
perhaps with adequate horsepower for today ::)

look at the probus-style BNCs and the user interface!
The probe interface looks just like Lecroy's interface so I guess it will say Lecroy on the badge and probably have made-by-Lecroy firmware outside China. Then again the Lecroy version is likely to lack peak-detect so not interested.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tautech on March 16, 2018, 01:18:37 am
they either learned a lot from lecroy or this is going to be a rebadged by lecroy as well.
perhaps with adequate horsepower for today ::)

look at the probus-style BNCs and the user interface!
The probe interface looks just like Lecroy's interface so I guess it will say Lecroy on the badge and probably have made-by-Lecroy firmware outside China. Then again the Lecroy version is likely to lack peak-detect so not interested.
:-//
The vid was from a European trade show, not one in Asia and that indicates it will be a Siglent product for all markets.
Word direct from the factory:
New SDS5000X will have Peak Detect mode !
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: 2N3055 on March 16, 2018, 08:18:27 am
:-//
The vid was from a European trade show, not one in Asia and that indicates it will be a Siglent product for all markets.
Word direct from the factory:
New SDS5000X will have Peak Detect mode !

That is interesting.. I have a confirmation by LeCroy that "refresh of 3000 series" (whatever that means) will be released soon...
Fact that Siglent will release SDS5000X into western markets is interesting.. :popcorn:
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tautech on March 16, 2018, 09:09:54 am
:-//
The vid was from a European trade show, not one in Asia and that indicates it will be a Siglent product for all markets.
Word direct from the factory:
New SDS5000X will have Peak Detect mode !

That is interesting.. I have a confirmation by LeCroy that "refresh of 3000 series" (whatever that means) will be released soon...
Have a good look through the vid for any sign of a mention of LeCroy in the GUI....there isn't.
Unlike the WS/SDS3000 models.
It's a Siglent product and entirely theirs to market as they wish.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: 2N3055 on March 16, 2018, 09:45:52 am
Have a good look through the vid for any sign of a mention of LeCroy in the GUI....there isn't.
Unlike the WS/SDS3000 models.
It's a Siglent product and entirely theirs to market as they wish.

I didn't say it was... Quite the opposite, i think Siglent pulled "the rigol" on LeCroy...
Anyways, seems like interesting product. I hope price will be right, and that it will be well supported and reasonably bug free..
 
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: TheDefpom on March 17, 2018, 08:40:10 am
The four BNC connectors on the rear interest me, I wonder if they finally added a 10MHz reference input?
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: simone.pignatti on March 17, 2018, 06:13:43 pm
Hello, pics I took at embedded world, the scope will come this year in EU probably immediately before or after the SVA1005X.
It has the same touch screen of the SVA1005X.
it will have most probably 250Mpts of memory, for sure 8bit vertical resolution.
As soon as it will be available in EU we will have it for a test and in stock.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: simone.pignatti on March 17, 2018, 06:17:37 pm
:-//
The vid was from a European trade show, not one in Asia and that indicates it will be a Siglent product for all markets.
Word direct from the factory:
New SDS5000X will have Peak Detect mode !

That is interesting.. I have a confirmation by LeCroy that "refresh of 3000 series" (whatever that means) will be released soon...
Fact that Siglent will release SDS5000X into western markets is interesting.. :popcorn:
Do not expect nothing exciting by the LeCroy WS3000
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: nctnico on March 17, 2018, 07:35:09 pm
Have a good look through the vid for any sign of a mention of LeCroy in the GUI....there isn't.
Unlike the WS/SDS3000 models.
It's a Siglent product and entirely theirs to market as they wish.

I didn't say it was... Quite the opposite, i think Siglent pulled "the rigol" on LeCroy...
Anyways, seems like interesting product. I hope price will be right, and that it will be well supported and reasonably bug free..
The biggest question is: who is going to buy it given Siglent's track record of releasing buggy equipment?
I estimate the price will be in the $2000 to $5000 range (above the SDS2000X series) and in that price bracket the hobbyists are spread thin. Companies will require a product which works right straight out of the box the minute it arrives. Waiting for 2 years for Siglent to fix the bugs is not an option. So I really wonder who is going to buy this scope.

Also it won't help to make the A-brands lower their prices because the A-brands don't seem to consider Siglent as a competitor at any level. Keysight, Tektronix and Rhode & Schwarz compare their products against eachother, GW Instek, Lecroy and Rigol but Siglent is nowhere to be found.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: 2N3055 on March 17, 2018, 08:31:29 pm
:-//
The vid was from a European trade show, not one in Asia and that indicates it will be a Siglent product for all markets.
Word direct from the factory:
New SDS5000X will have Peak Detect mode !

That is interesting.. I have a confirmation by LeCroy that "refresh of 3000 series" (whatever that means) will be released soon...
Fact that Siglent will release SDS5000X into western markets is interesting.. :popcorn:
Do not expect nothing exciting by the LeCroy WS3000

Sadly, I don't... I don't expect anything really new from Keysight either...
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: TAMHAN on March 19, 2018, 05:27:12 pm
As the guy who committed the crime, I just wanted to report in. Sorry for being so silent, but I am overworked as fuck.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tautech on March 20, 2018, 07:17:52 am
As the guy who committed the crime, I just wanted to report in.
Thanks.  :-+

We all knew very little of SDS5000X models before your vid so thanks for that.
Did you find out the amount of memory depth ?
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: Mr. Scram on March 20, 2018, 07:22:31 am
The biggest question is: who is going to buy it given Siglent's track record of releasing buggy equipment?
I estimate the price will be in the $2000 to $5000 range (above the SDS2000X series) and in that price bracket the hobbyists are spread thin. Companies will require a product which works right straight out of the box the minute it arrives. Waiting for 2 years for Siglent to fix the bugs is not an option. So I really wonder who is going to buy this scope.

Also it won't help to make the A-brands lower their prices because the A-brands don't seem to consider Siglent as a competitor at any level. Keysight, Tektronix and Rhode & Schwarz compare their products against eachother, GW Instek, Lecroy and Rigol but Siglent is nowhere to be found.
My current hesitation to buy into Siglent equipment is mostly based on the fact that I don't know what to expect from them, and less on the merits of the actual equipment itself. Support in the long run is everything.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: simone.pignatti on March 20, 2018, 07:38:15 am
As the guy who committed the crime, I just wanted to report in.
Thanks.  :-+

We all knew very little of SDS5000X models before your vid so thanks for that.
Did you find out the amount of memory depth ?
Hello, it is 250Mpts
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: Performa01 on March 21, 2018, 04:25:18 pm
I think it’s quite obvious what this is going to be: an SDS2kX combined with the new system architecture and additional user interface elements of the SDS1204X-E plus some further improvements like the 10.1” capacitive touch screen, enhanced probe interface, reference clock in/out and external monitor support.

Compared to a SDS1204X-E the SDS5kX has 5 times the sample rate, thus enabling 5 times the bandwidth for the top model and it has almost 18 times the sample memory, hence can capture up to 50ms at max. sample rate.

I guess this is going to be a pretty interesting product once again.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tautech on May 24, 2018, 10:31:26 am
Info on these new SDS5000X DSO's has just appeared on the Chinese website.
There'll be 2 and 4 channel variants with BW's of 350, 500 MHz and 1 GHz.
MSO capability will be with the SPL2016 16ch probe set used on SDS2000X models.

(http://www.siglent.com/Chinese_website2014/picture/SDS5000X/SDS5000XMAIN.png)

Rear connectivity:
(http://www.siglent.com/Chinese_website2014/picture/SDS5000X/SDS5000X21.png)

Looking forward to getting my hands on one.  :)
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: JPortici on May 24, 2018, 10:51:15 am
So,
ballpark price?
options, beside the usual?
probe interface compatible with probus?
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tautech on May 24, 2018, 11:01:46 am
So,
ballpark price?
options, beside the usual?
probe interface compatible with probus?
As yet we can only guess what western pricing will be but 86,880 Yuan is stated for the 4ch 1GHz model with the 350 MHz 4ch model ~1/2 that.
As I surmised the AWG will be the SAG1021 25 MHz USB module used on the SDS1004X-E models.

Until I sit down and translate it all the rest is unknown excepting what you can wean from the Chinese datasheet:
http://www.siglent.com/Chinese_website2014/Datasheet/SDS5000X_Datasheet_DS0105X_C01A.pdf (http://www.siglent.com/Chinese_website2014/Datasheet/SDS5000X_Datasheet_DS0105X_C01A.pdf)
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: Electro Detective on May 24, 2018, 11:09:07 am
The DSO is nice and hopefully a nice price too   :clap: 

but why oh why did they not put the inputs directly below each channel control strip

and shift the USB, CAL and rectangular black thingie to the other side   :-//

At least they didn't do the -shared controls- thing, now THAT would be a b*mmer

All that aside, it looks the business   :-+

Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: Performa01 on May 24, 2018, 11:09:38 am
Siglent's new probe interface is not ProBus (LeCroy).
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tautech on May 24, 2018, 11:18:04 am
The DSO is nice and hopefully a nice price too   :clap: 

but why oh why did they not put the inputs directly below each channel control strip

and shift the USB, CAL and rectangular black thingie to the other side   :-//
Siglent first laid out this format in 2013 when they released SDS2000 now superseded by 2000X.
At that time there was comment exactly the same but until you've used one for a while you notice it doesn't really matter a damn, in fact for most that are right handed it's better to have USB and particularly probe Cal on the right.

(https://siglentna-qwavztc8hvq2w.stackpathdns.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/11-e1510686703660.png)

My one of these ^ might get upgraded .
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: JPortici on May 24, 2018, 01:01:50 pm
So,
ballpark price?
options, beside the usual?
probe interface compatible with probus?
As yet we can only guess what western pricing will be but 86,880 Yuan is stated for the 4ch 1GHz model with the 350 MHz 4ch model ~1/2 that.
As I surmised the AWG will be the SAG1021 25 MHz USB module used on the SDS1004X-E models.

Until I sit down and translate it all the rest is unknown excepting what you can wean from the Chinese datasheet:
http://www.siglent.com/Chinese_website2014/Datasheet/SDS5000X_Datasheet_DS0105X_C01A.pdf (http://www.siglent.com/Chinese_website2014/Datasheet/SDS5000X_Datasheet_DS0105X_C01A.pdf)


Google translate was of help
https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=zh-CN&u=http://www.siglent.com/oscilloscope/SDS5000X (https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=zh-CN&u=http://www.siglent.com/oscilloscope/SDS5000X)

SDS5034X is listed as 42,880, nearly 6k euro
However, only basic functions. same old stuff..

High samplerate, high wfm/s, ton of memory, but same old stuff..
hope it's not all, as the new R&S (RTM and RTA) are also listed at about that price and they have more options and 10 bit ADC

fingers crossed :)
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: bugi on May 24, 2018, 02:26:19 pm
And hopefully they have managed to get the behavior of rotation knobs usable. The SDS2000X series is absolute horrendous with those (or at least mine is). I haven't tested the latest firmware versions, but last time I checked release notes, there were no indications of fixes for the rotation problems.

Hmm.. now that I rechecked the release notes, still no indication for fixing them, but several other interesting fixes, I guess it is time to update.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: Performa01 on May 24, 2018, 02:39:11 pm
High samplerate, high wfm/s, ton of memory, but same old stuff..
hope it's not all, as the new R&S (RTM and RTA) are also listed at about that price and they have more options and 10 bit ADC

10 bits are a valid argument. But what else?

That "same old stuff" is not bad after all, is it? What is missing? What would you like to see in such an instrument?

Anyone who thinks there are essential features missing is welcome to share their thoughts.

Hint: The initial release will indeed be not much more than just the familiar old (and good) stuff - of course without most of the limitations the lower end instruments (SDS1004X-E, SDS2000X-E) suffer from. But there is more to come and we could certainly convince Siglent product management to add even more sensible features to their to-do list.

Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: Mr. Scram on May 24, 2018, 02:50:10 pm
Siglent first laid out this format in 2013 when they released SDS2000 now superseded by 2000X.
At that time there was comment exactly the same but until you've used one for a while you notice it doesn't really matter a damn, in fact for most that are right handed it's better to have USB and particularly probe Cal on the right.

(https://siglentna-qwavztc8hvq2w.stackpathdns.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/11-e1510686703660.png)

My one of these ^ might get upgraded .
Those squared channel buttons look so much better than those horrible oval ones.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: Performa01 on May 24, 2018, 02:50:38 pm
And hopefully they have managed to get the behavior of rotation knobs usable. The SDS2000X series is absolute horrendous with those (or at least mine is). I haven't tested the latest firmware versions, but last time I checked release notes, there were no indications of fixes for the rotation problems.

Hmm.. now that I rechecked the release notes, still no indication for fixing them, but several other interesting fixes, I guess it is time to update.

The release notes usually don't list all fixes and improvements. Many changes due to internal test reports aren't documented this way.

Particularly the rotary encoders are a constant issue, that's also why the numerical input dialog has been introduced at some point. As far as I remember, the behavior of the encoders has changed many times, in fact almost with each update. In my opinion, it is not perfect because it lacks smooth continuous acceleration (it has just a few discrete speed steps), but still usable and certainly much better than it used to be initially. Apart from that, there are many more reasons (=fixes & improvements) to keep the firmware up to date.

Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: JPortici on May 25, 2018, 05:57:40 am
That "same old stuff" is not bad after all, is it? What is missing? What would you like to see in such an instrument?

For example, there are more protocols around than UART/SPI/I2C/CAN/LIN.
See the complete app package for the keysight DSO-X 3000.
    -> YES, it's shared with all the megazoom scopes, because same platform, minus the 1k and 2k, because product line separation
    -> YES, old scope with tini tiny memory. Let's avoid the same old :blah: :horse: shall we?

See what R&S is offering as options for the RTA and RTM.. now if some more of the RTA options were ported to the RTM it would be cake, i was told it should happen in the near future. And they are
    -> 10 bit
    -> Touch screen with what seems to be a proper UI (Not saying anything about siglent of course, haven't tried it..)
    -> more options to begin with
    -> better reputation, if you want
    -> around the same price, RTM starts at less, RTA starts at that price
and only drawback i can see
    -> Less memory per channel

Look at what picoscopes give you, they may be "cheating" because many things depend on how powerful your computer is, but they do give them.

if i'm even considering 5K eur so i can only look at a signal and see a blazing fast 500 MHz SPI, i'm going to get a lecroy, at least i get histogram and really advanced math (long functions, math on math on math, math on measurements, display measurement trace and so on).

can we also get histograms and really advanced math? Or even an option for power analysis..
:)

To be honest i was expecting it to be about half the proposed price, given the above. I can't see how it can be justifiable if they want to compete
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tautech on May 25, 2018, 08:24:29 am
As the guy who committed the crime, I just wanted to report in.
Thanks.  :-+

We all knew very little of SDS5000X models before your vid so thanks for that.
Did you find out the amount of memory depth ?
Hello, it is 250Mpts
Actually it's 2x 250 Mpts, 250 Mpts for each of the two 5 GSa/s ADC's.
So will all channels active max sampling rate and memory depth will be 2.5 GSa/s and 125 Mpts/channel.

And from the current datasheet we see 1Mpts FFT.

@JPortici
Who knows what additional features will be suggested by the beta testers and I'm quite sure there'll be plenty, yes the protocols offered can only be considered as basic for a DSO in this class. I've already suggested an advanced protocol suite be offered too. Market support will decide on what additional features can be added in in the future as you only well know it's just a firmware update.
The GUI as shown in the datasheet already looks optimized for touch usage with graphics representing the functions of the icons.
Power analysis option is already offered for SDS2kX so there's no reason why it shouldn't be included in the SDS5kX option list.
Until western market release is imminent there's really no point of bitching about your best guess price as all of ours have been way off in the past based on what we see on the Chinese websites.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: JPortici on May 25, 2018, 09:04:39 am
@JPortici
Who knows what additional features will be suggested by the beta testers and I'm quite sure there'll be plenty, yes the protocols offered can only be considered as basic for a DSO in this class. I've already suggested an advanced protocol suite be offered too. Market support will decide on what additional features can be added in in the future as you only well know it's just a firmware update.
The GUI as shown in the datasheet already looks optimized for touch usage with graphics representing the functions of the icons.
Power analysis option is already offered for SDS2kX so there's no reason why it shouldn't be included in the SDS5kX option list.
Until western market release is imminent there's really no point of bitching about your best guess price as all of ours have been way off in the past based on what we see on the Chinese websites.

Ah, i agree with you! It's way early to discuss and the only thing we can do is speculate and bitching! I don't think it's wrong to put things in perspective and as siglent has started a possibly good trend in by offering a complete scope, with modern hardware and very decent performance for the price class (1000X-E) i'd love them to continue it :-+
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tautech on May 25, 2018, 09:30:46 am
@JPortici
Who knows what additional features will be suggested by the beta testers and I'm quite sure there'll be plenty, yes the protocols offered can only be considered as basic for a DSO in this class. I've already suggested an advanced protocol suite be offered too. Market support will decide on what additional features can be added in in the future as you only well know it's just a firmware update.
The GUI as shown in the datasheet already looks optimized for touch usage with graphics representing the functions of the icons.
Power analysis option is already offered for SDS2kX so there's no reason why it shouldn't be included in the SDS5kX option list.
Until western market release is imminent there's really no point of bitching about your best guess price as all of ours have been way off in the past based on what we see on the Chinese websites.

Ah, i agree with you! It's way early to discuss and the only thing we can do is speculate and bitching! I don't think it's wrong to put things in perspective and as siglent has started a possibly good trend in by offering a complete scope, with modern hardware and very decent performance for the price class (1000X-E) i'd love them to continue it :-+
:)
I'm sure they will and yes the 4ch X-E capabilities were a surprise to some of us too. Siglent really hit a home run shoehorning all that functionality into a ittsy bittsy wheeny DSO.  Of course it will continue and another thing that sticks out in my mind is the same X-E USB AWG for 5000X models.....surely these will have Bode plot capabilities too.
I've said it before and again now.....interesting times.
BTW, PA is included in the options available: SDS-5000X-PA Power Analysis Options

The active probe is listed as SAP1000 1GHz bandwidth, 10X attenuation, 1Mohm//1.2pF input impedance
Do these specs seem satisfactory ?

What else can we come up with that should be included in/with a modern 1 GHz DSO ?
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: Performa01 on May 25, 2018, 10:13:01 am
For example, there are more protocols around than UART/SPI/I2C/CAN/LIN.

As already stated, the initial release might be limited to these, but there will definitely be an advanced protocol decoder package for this scope in the near future. Siglent will probably not just copy any package from the competition but rather listen to some experts who are very experienced with mid-range and high-end scopes and know what is actually useful. They will provide beta tests and consulting for the SDS5k.


    -> 10 bit

Yes, that would be great, but quite obviously isn't going to happen with the SDS5k series, as this is 8 bit dictated by the hardware. I'm sure we would be able to convince Siglent to add high resolution DSOs to their offerings, but for now they will have to get started with the current 8 bit platform.


    -> Touch screen with what seems to be a proper UI (Not saying anything about siglent of course, haven't tried it..)

Well, the UI has been completely redesigned in order to fit the touchscreen. I cannot know yet how successful this has been, and it is certainly not reasonable to expect that it will be as posh as the one from R&S right from the start. However, beta testers will suggest improvements where appropriate for sure and after the initial release, reasonable suggestions from users will certainly be considered as well.


    -> more options to begin with

That's just too unspecific. More options in itself is not an option ;)


    -> better reputation, if you want

Well, Siglent certainly cannot design "reputation" into their new product. But just recently I got the confirmation from upper management, that they agree with me to give high priority to open, honest communication as well as listening to customer needs. The SDS1004X-E series has already been a good example as my attempts to improve that platform have been honored by accepting the majority of my suggestions (if at all possible with the existing hardware, that is). I have no doubt that it will be the same for the SDS5k series, where I'm not aware of any hardware limitations other than the 8 bits.


    -> around the same price, RTM starts at less, RTA starts at that price

We don't know the price point yet.


Look at what picoscopes give you, they may be "cheating" because many things depend on how powerful your computer is, but they do give them.

Yes, PicoScope software provides many mid-range and even some high-end features. Rest assured that this will be my personal benchmark for certain areas.


can we also get histograms and really advanced math? Or even an option for power analysis..



EDIT: Ah yes, with "initial release" I mean the domestic release in China. I cannot rule out that we might already get some more than that with the release to the western market, where there is no official release date announced yet.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: nctnico on May 25, 2018, 01:37:57 pm
    -> better reputation, if you want
Well, Siglent certainly cannot design "reputation" into their new product. But just recently I got the confirmation from upper management, that they agree with me to give high priority to open, honest communication as well as listening to customer needs.
IMHO Siglent will do way better to implement better software testing and wait with releasing the firmware until it has been fully tested. There is no use to introduce a piece of equipment into the professional market segment if the software isn't ready and/or riddled with bugs. Better have less features which work than lots of features which don't work. Note that none of the A-brands sees Siglent as a serious competitor in any segment which in turn means the A-brands don't have to adjust their pricing.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: Mr. Scram on May 27, 2018, 04:29:49 am
Guys, we know who's a Siglent fanboy and also who will consistently criticise the brand. It's tiring to see the same worn out nagging in every thread by the same people. Could we please just discuss the product without the brand war?
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: maginnovision on May 27, 2018, 07:53:18 pm
Guys, we know who's a Siglent fanboy and also who will consistently criticise the brand. It's tiring to see the same worn out nagging in every thread by the same people. Could we please just discuss the product without the brand war?


Getting two different perspectives is useful. The company designing the product is also very relevant. I've found it absolutely helps me decide hearing the good and especially the critical to help decide. You may be tires of hearing both sides but as people are looking for info they may only look at this thread for instance, not every thread on every siglent product. This happens with every brands products siglent just seems worse because there are multiple sellers making sure the last word is theirs and positive.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: Hydrawerk on May 27, 2018, 09:41:08 pm
 :)
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: Mr. Scram on May 27, 2018, 10:12:59 pm
Getting two different perspectives is useful. The company designing the product is also very relevant. I've found it absolutely helps me decide hearing the good and especially the critical to help decide. You may be tires of hearing both sides but as people are looking for info they may only look at this thread for instance, not every thread on every siglent product. This happens with every brands products siglent just seems worse because there are multiple sellers making sure the last word is theirs and positive.
Strongly biased information is useless. Having the same junk information rehashed time and time again is nothing but a waste of forum space. I understand some people may mistake it for something useful, but misinformation isn't. It's confusing and unfair at best and that works both ways.

The only thing it does is making the SNR quite terrible.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: maginnovision on May 27, 2018, 11:44:24 pm
So you'd rather people not have strong opinions? Everyone should feel everything in equal measure? If you don't care about other peoples opinions just go to the website and look at the datasheet. Again for a person trying to make a decision it can be useful information even if you don't like it. The posts that are an actual waste of space are ones like these where people try to reason with others over the opinions expressed.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: Mr. Scram on May 28, 2018, 12:24:15 am
So you'd rather people not have strong opinions? Everyone should feel everything in equal measure? If you don't care about other peoples opinions just go to the website and look at the datasheet. Again for a person trying to make a decision it can be useful information even if you don't like it. The posts that are an actual waste of space are ones like these where people try to reason with others over the opinions expressed.
You're not understanding me. We don't mind people having strong opinions here. Anyone who does wouldn't last very long. ;D The problem arises when strong opinions aren't based upon reality and simply consist of bias. They don't add anything of value to the conversation, just noise. Some here make a buck by selling Siglent devices and will always have a very favourable interpretation of how things are. Things are always good, regardless of how they actually are. That's not a valuable opinion, that's noise. Others always criticize the brand whatever it does and the same applies. If the answer is set before the question has been formulated the reply cannot have any value. There is no information.

As soon as there isn't a relationship between reality and the opinions voiced, they become noise. At best, it's a nuisance and at worst it'll confuse and misguide unsuspecting visitors.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tv84 on May 31, 2018, 05:54:24 pm
Looking at the latest SDS1000X-E firmware .APP, I see  these references to SDS5000X:

Code: [Select]
void *__fastcall sub_366E20(void *a1)
{
  void *v1; // r0@1
  void *result; // r0@3
  void *dest; // [sp+4h] [bp-10h]@1
  int v4; // [sp+Ch] [bp-8h]@1

  dest = a1;
  v1 = Scope_Model();
  v4 = sub_38934C((int)v1);
  if ( v4 != 3 && v4 != 4 )
    result = memcpy(dest, "SDS1000X-E", 0xBu);
  else
    result = memcpy(dest, "SDS5000X", 9u);
  return result;
}

There is also this reference in another place:
Code: [Select]
  if ( v15 == 5 )
  {
    result = memcpy(dest, "SLA1016", 8u);
  }
  else if ( v15 != 3 && v15 != 4 )
  {
    n = 0;
    v4 = "SDS102E";
    v5 = "SDS104E";
    v6 = "SDS106E";
    v7 = "SDS110E";
    v8 = "SDS115E";
    v9 = "SDS120E";
    v10 = "SDS125E";
    v11 = "SDS130E";
    v12 = "SDS105E";
    v13 = "SDS107E";
    result = (void *)sub_21C8B8();
    v14 = (signed int)result;
    if ( (signed int)result <= 9 )
    {
      n = strlen(&byte_12716A0[15 * v14]);
      if ( (signed int)n > 15 )
        n = 15;
      if ( byte_12716A0[15 * v14] && byte_12716A0[15 * v14] != 32 )
        result = strncpy((char *)dest, &byte_12716A0[15 * v14], n);
      else
        result = strcpy((char *)dest, *(const char **)&v17[4 * v14 - 52]);
    }
  }
  else
  {
    result = memcpy(dest, "SDS5000X", 9u);
  }
  return result;

And other brands possible:
Code: [Select]
signed int get_ScopeBrand_ID()
{
  signed int v0; // r3@2

       if ( gos_strcmp(SCOPE_BRAND, "ATTEN") == 0 )      v0 = 2;
  else if ( gos_strcmp(SCOPE_BRAND, "LECROY") == 0 )     v0 = 0;
  else if ( gos_strcmp(SCOPE_BRAND, "SIGLENT") == 0 )    v0 = 1;
  else if ( gos_strcmp(SCOPE_BRAND, "BK") == 0 )         v0 = 3;
  else if ( gos_strcmp(SCOPE_BRAND, "AKIP") == 0 )       v0 = 4;
  else if ( gos_strcmp(SCOPE_BRAND, "AKTAKOM") == 0 )    v0 = 5;
  else if ( gos_strcmp(SCOPE_BRAND, "KUNDE") == 0 )      v0 = 6;
  else if ( gos_strcmp(SCOPE_BRAND, "OEM_TO_POL") == 0 ) v0 = 7;
  else if ( gos_strcmp(SCOPE_BRAND, "SIGLENT_IE") == 0 ) v0 = 9;
  else v0 = 8;

  return v0;
}

So, does this mean that the SDS5000X will run the same firmware of the SDS1000X-E ?   ::)
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tautech on May 31, 2018, 08:10:56 pm
Looking at the latest SDS1000X-E firmware .APP, I see  these references to SDS5000X:

There is also this reference in another place:
Code: [Select]
  if ( v15 == 5 )
  {
    result = memcpy(dest, "[b]SLA1016[/b]", 8u);
  }
  else if ( v15 != 3 && v15 != 4 )
  {
    n = 0;
    v4 = "SDS102E";
    v5 = "SDS104E";
    v6 = "SDS106E";
    v7 = "SDS110E";
    v8 = "SDS115E";
    v9 = "SDS120E";
    v10 = "SDS125E";
    v11 = "SDS130E";
    v12 = "SDS105E";
    v13 = "SDS107E";
    result = (void *)sub_21C8B8();
    v14 = (signed int)result;
    if ( (signed int)result <= 9 )
    {
      n = strlen(&byte_12716A0[15 * v14]);
      if ( (signed int)n > 15 )
        n = 15;
      if ( byte_12716A0[15 * v14] && byte_12716A0[15 * v14] != 32 )
        result = strncpy((char *)dest, &byte_12716A0[15 * v14], n);
      else
        result = strcpy((char *)dest, *(const char **)&v17[4 * v14 - 52]);
    }
  }
  else
  {
    result = memcpy(dest, "SDS5000X", 9u);
  }
  return result;


So, does this mean that the SDS5000X will run the same firmware of the SDS1000X-E ?   ::)
Some of it for sure but the GUI will be quite different.
Think, OS and FW.  ;)
SLA1016 subroutine is for the external AWG module also used for SDS1004X-E models.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: nctnico on May 31, 2018, 08:59:42 pm
I doubt the GUI will be radically different. It makes a lot of sense to use the same code base for a wide range of oscilloscopes. Chances are the SDS5000 also uses the Xilinx Zync hardware platform which is an interesting choice.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tautech on October 09, 2018, 08:30:08 pm
Release in a few weeks is the rumor.............

A couple of screenshots pinched from another thread.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sdg6000-series-awg_s/?action=dlattach;attach=543131;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sdg6000-series-awg_s/?action=dlattach;attach=543167;image)
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: 2N3055 on October 09, 2018, 09:05:09 pm
U/I looks a bit like a cross between Lecroy(left, bottom and top) and Keysight (status area on the right)...


Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: Performa01 on December 08, 2018, 12:20:17 pm
I've learned that some like to verify scope bandwidth by using fast pulses or squarewaves, rather than the old-school (swept) sine wave approach (which is still the only valid one, since the pulse response heavily depends on the filter characteristics of the signal path).

Yet I thought I would show an example as a reference, what a 100MHz square wave is supposed to look like on a (true) 1GHz scope:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-e/?action=dlattach;attach=591073;image)
Square 100MHz_Z2ns+FFT

This is a 100MHz square wave with <100ps transition time.

Main timebase is 100ns/div in order to get a sufficiently detailed FFT from DC to 2GHz.
Zoom timebase is 2ns/div in order to get a detailed Y-t view.

Automatic measurements:
FOV = Overshoot after a falling edge.
ROV = Overshoot after a rising edge.
Rise & Fall times are not accurate because of limited scope rise time and also time measurement resolution limited to 20ps at that timebase.

This is from an early pre-production unit of the SDS5104X and the frontend will be further improved at public release.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tautech on January 14, 2019, 03:51:45 am
This is from an early pre-production unit of the SDS5104X and the frontend will be further improved at public release.
And that's not far away it seems as I got an English datasheet today and pricing due very soon.
The datasheet is 5 MB so can't post it here but can share it by email if anyone can't wait for it to go online.

Things that stick out are the new additional decode protocols only offered as options:  :(
CAN FD, FlexRay, I2S and MIL-STD-1553B
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tautech on January 14, 2019, 09:06:38 am
A few surprises:

2 Mpts FFT !
Inbuilt DVM and 1 GHz 7-digit frequency counter.
Math on Math.
Noise distribution Histograms.
Full BW down to 2.45mV/div, then BW limited to 200 MHz. (corrected)
User definable Zone Trigger.
Qualified Trigger: Hold off by Events or Time

Overview, PowerPoint slideshow download (10 MB):
https://mega.nz/#%21S40UAYbA%21EmaqcMfk3ve7OV6wNa6cXjTJhOYdq_14BlLivSjrDok
(sorry, a download once only link  :( )
See my reply below.

US Pricing:
SDS5032X   $ 2899   (350 MHz)
SDS5034X   $ 3569
SDS5052X   $ 5289   (500 MHz)
SDS5054X   $ 5689
SDS5102X   $ 5999   (1 GHz)
SDS5104X   $ 7289

MSO Logic probe and SW license $ 798
1 GHz active probe $ 999
CAN FD, FlexRay, I2S and MIL-STD-1553B triggering suite and decoder: $329 ea.

Release date unspecified, ~7 days.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: 2N3055 on January 14, 2019, 10:37:47 am
Tautech,

Presentation link doesn't work..

Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tautech on January 14, 2019, 10:54:10 am
Tautech,

Presentation link doesn't work..
Oh bugger, it must have been a 'download once' link !  :(

Open invitation to PM me email addresses and I'll attach it to a reply. (NO spam ever sent !)
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: Performa01 on January 14, 2019, 11:00:13 am
A few surprises:

2 Mpts FFT !
Inbuilt DVM and 1 GHz 7-digit frequency counter.
Math on Math.
Noise distribution Histograms.
Full BW 500uV/div.
User definable Zone Trigger.
Qualified Trigger: Hold off by Events or Time
A few clarifications:

- Histicons in the measurement statistics (can be enlarged in a separate window)
- Dedicated vertical or horizontal histogram
- 200MHz BW-limit for the high sensitivities <2.45mV/div (it's in the fine print!)
- Zone Trigger and Qualified Trigger
- Holdoff by Time or by Event (relative to acquisition start or last trigger time) as an addition to all applicable triggers, vastly increasing their versatility

plus:
- Cycle to Cycle Jitter measurement, for this the precision and accuracy of time period measurements has been vastly improved down to single digit picosecond level
- Mask Test in the zoom window
- Zoom window as optional input source for Math and Measurements
- Comprehensive Online Help (English only)
- Integrated Web Server even better than on SDS1004X-E

... and a lot more to be added after the introduction.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: simone.pignatti on January 14, 2019, 12:15:53 pm
important to say the 350MHz can not be upgraded to 1GHz
IDEA OF EURO PRICING VAT NOT INCLUDED - WILL ADJUST THEM ON THE 28TH
SDS5032X ... €2.500
SDS5034X ... €2.900
SDS5052X ... €4.600
SDS5054X ... €5.000
SDS5102X ... €5.300
SDS5104X ... €6.500

attached is Histogram and Trend diagrams display
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tautech on January 16, 2019, 02:41:30 am
I now have a smaller 6 MB SDS5000X Introduction pdf if anyone wants it.
Appears to be identical to the 10 MB PPT offered above.

So the choice is now PPT or PDF, your call.
Email required via PM.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: simone.pignatti on January 18, 2019, 05:05:14 pm
here is a picture of the 1GHz active probe Siglent SAP1000
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: JPortici on January 25, 2019, 12:19:15 pm
This morning gianmarco from batterfly came to the office so we couod try the sds5000x.

Damn, i was really impressed. Even though some things need refinement (like that it wasn't obvious how to set up zone trigger, auto thresholds for decoders and such things) the funcionality is there. Not sure if some things were working as intended (i expect clear to clear all the screen and not only the persistence) I saw some things that some people may call glitches but really aren't (reduce the timebase, for a moment you may see a cropped waveform.. but it's obviously because there is no data to display and it defaults to zero! Fine by me)

Other pros:
Very quiet.
Very fast interface, even if i enabled literally every function available.
Math on math is always nice.
Never froze or hung up.
Like the screen very much.
Resonably fast to boot (i think 30 seconds?)

Some cons:
They should display decoders like how R&S does. Or at least some color coding.. see lecroy and picoscope.
Some things needs refinement in the decoder section. XY with more options (for now it's like in the dark age, ch1 and ch2 only).
It appears it doesn't save the event table to file, only waveform data or screenshot or setup.
Plus other little things i already passed up

But all in all a great instrument, working as intended from day one. And if some of the enhancements i proposed will get implemented.. it will be software wise on about the same level as a lecroy 4000. Given the price it's really something. IMHO it's already the best of the chinese scopes.

We also had a little contest with a RTB2000, we wanted to see which decoder would crap out first. It was the RTB, even if it was sampling at a higher rate.
The DUT was an I2C bus drawing a framebuffer on an I2C small oled, at a non standard 800kHz (i had that laying around). The non standard frwquency could have upset the hardware decoder in the R&S but i didn't  have the time to load the project and change it so take the result with a pinch :)

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190125/e8ce8d6aaab72e555a56897eb41cd622.jpg)
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: nctnico on January 26, 2019, 10:46:05 pm
Just wondering. Is the firmware based on the firmware used on other models? It would be good if it is so features & fixes can be applied across the entire line. A head-to-head comparison with the Rigol MSO5000 would be nice as well. Then again based on your list with cons the firmware doesn't seem to be completely finished yet.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: simone.pignatti on January 27, 2019, 09:25:38 am
Just wondering. Is the firmware based on the firmware used on other models? It would be good if it is so features & fixes can be applied across the entire line. A head-to-head comparison with the Rigol MSO5000 would be nice as well. Then again based on your list with cons the firmware doesn't seem to be completely finished yet.
The SDS5104X FW version was SDS5000X-V0.7.9R1 (RTB had 02.202) . I'm not quite sure this will be the official one on the first batch of stock units, we will discover this soon.
Yes comparing with other models will be nice, just need to find the time for it :(
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: Performa01 on January 27, 2019, 12:15:46 pm
The SDS5104X FW version was SDS5000X-V0.7.9R1 (RTB had 02.202) . I'm not quite sure this will be the official one on the first batch of stock units, we will discover this soon.
 
Certainly not. Release FW will be V0.8.xxx

Damn, i was really impressed. Even though some things need refinement (like that it wasn't obvious how to set up zone trigger, auto thresholds for decoders and such things) the funcionality is there.
Zone trigger works in combination with the existing triggers and helps to define additional criteria in order to get an ambiguous trigger condition unique, hence stable. The definition of the trigger zones might be a bit tricky, but I think with a little practice we can get used to that. I personally prefer to set up a zone trigger in Stop or even History mode, so that I can select a single acquisition that I’d like to make stable.

Here’s a made-up example. First just edge trigger, this certainly doesn’t define a stable trigger condition:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/at-last-siglent_s-sds5054x-touchscreen/?action=dlattach;attach=635902;image)
SDS5104X_Trig_Edge

With an additional “non-intersect” zone everything is fine:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/at-last-siglent_s-sds5054x-touchscreen/?action=dlattach;attach=635908;image)
SDS5104X_Trig_Zone2

Not sure if some things were working as intended (i expect clear to clear all the screen and not only the persistence) I saw some things that some people may call glitches but really aren't (reduce the timebase, for a moment you may see a cropped waveform.. but it's obviously because there is no data to display and it defaults to zero! Fine by me)
The button on the front panel is labelled “Clear Sweeps” and it is not the same as [Clear Screen], which can be found in the Display menu. Clear Sweeps deletes all traces on the display except for the most recent acquisition, it also resets persistence, measurement statistics, Roll mode, Averages in FFT – and sure a couple more things I forgot to mention. It is a very frequently used function, hence the dedicated physical button. I don’t think that I’ve ever really missed the [Clear Screen] function, but it’s there for those who do.

Other pros:
Very quiet.
Very fast interface, even if i enabled literally every function available.
Math on math is always nice.
Never froze or hung up.
Like the screen very much.
Resonably fast to boot (i think 30 seconds?)

Some cons:
They should display decoders like how R&S does. Or at least some color coding.. see lecroy and picoscope.
Some things needs refinement in the decoder section. XY with more options (for now it's like in the dark age, ch1 and ch2 only).
It appears it doesn't save the event table to file, only waveform data or screenshot or setup.
Plus other little things i already passed up

But all in all a great instrument, working as intended from day one. And if some of the enhancements i proposed will get implemented.. it will be software wise on about the same level as a lecroy 4000. Given the price it's really something. IMHO it's already the best of the chinese scopes.
Glad you like it already - as I’ve mentioned in an earlier post, there’s a long list of features yet to come.
But similar to some other big brand, the Siglent SDS5000X will be introduced now, even though it will probably take at least one more year until it can reach the “feature complete” state. And this needs not be the end - Siglent has always been open for requests from competent folks.

The X/Y mode is already more than just a basic emulation, it is hardware accelerated, thus very fast and provides most of the functionality of the Y-t mode, including intensity grading, persistence and history. Nevertheless there is an open request for XYZ mode – glad if you are supporting this request too!

Regarding the “other little things”, rest assured that they are seriously considered – and some priorities might have even changed because of that ;)
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: JPortici on January 27, 2019, 12:57:42 pm
A head-to-head comparison with the Rigol MSO5000 would be nice as well. Then again based on your list with cons the firmware doesn't seem to be completely finished yet.

Not completely finished, but completely usable. If anything, it didn't crash or reboot, yet.
I didn't have time to play with it for more than a couple of hours but me and gianmarco wrote down a list of things that could be improved in the interface and that shouldn't be too difficult to implement if they get approved.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: 2N3055 on January 27, 2019, 01:55:51 pm
Just wondering. Is the firmware based on the firmware used on other models? It would be good if it is so features & fixes can be applied across the entire line. A head-to-head comparison with the Rigol MSO5000 would be nice as well. Then again based on your list with cons the firmware doesn't seem to be completely finished yet.

Well, it is a 1GHz scope, so comparison with at least Rigol MSO/DS7000 ( or the new one yet to be released 1GHZ scope from Rigol) would be more appropriate.

From what I can see, SDS5000X seem to have better analog front end (sensitivity and noise), better concept of GUI (better usage of screen), better concept of history buffers and segmented memory in general.
They are nicely shaping up to be affordable alternative to LeCroy or R&S type scopes. Rigol seems to model it's products after different concept, and frankly I find Siglent's approach both more modern and more usable.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: nctnico on January 27, 2019, 02:48:09 pm
Just wondering. Is the firmware based on the firmware used on other models? It would be good if it is so features & fixes can be applied across the entire line. A head-to-head comparison with the Rigol MSO5000 would be nice as well. Then again based on your list with cons the firmware doesn't seem to be completely finished yet.

Well, it is a 1GHz scope, so comparison with at least Rigol MSO/DS7000 ( or the new one yet to be released 1GHZ scope from Rigol) would be more appropriate.

From what I can see, SDS5000X seem to have better analog front end (sensitivity and noise), better concept of GUI (better usage of screen), better concept of history buffers and segmented memory in general.
They are nicely shaping up to be affordable alternative to LeCroy or R&S type scopes. Rigol seems to model it's products after different concept, and frankly I find Siglent's approach both more modern and more usable.
It all comes down to how useable (*) it is when released. So far non of the A-brands considers Siglent a competitor. It seems Siglent has taken testing more seriously by pre-releasing units to beta testers and listening to their feedback. That is a big step forward towards entering the professional market succesfully. Looking forward to see how this unfolds.

*  Equals to: do most of the features actually work as advertised and no show-stopper bugs.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: 2N3055 on January 27, 2019, 02:54:10 pm

It all comes down to how useable (*) it is when released. So far non of the A-brands considers Siglent a competitor. It seems Siglent has taken testing more seriously by pre-releasing units to beta testers and listening to their feedback. That is a big step forward towards entering the professional market succesfully. Looking forward to see how this unfolds.

*  Equals to: do most of the features actually work as advertised and no show-stopper bugs.

I agree with everything.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on January 27, 2019, 03:38:38 pm
I understand that the probe interface is not Lecroy's ProBus, even though it looks similar. While understandable (from LeCroy's point of view), this is a bit disappointing  since being able to use older active Lecroy probes from eBay would be a big advantage. I wonder if there will be at least adapters for stuff like ProBus and TekProbe. E.g. there's TekProbe adapter for the bigger Rigol scopes (like DS7000) which is at least better than being limited just to a active probes from a B-brand which however cost nearly as much as  from an A-brand even though the resell value is just a fraction of that.

[EDIT]
The datasheet seems to float around already (4.5MB):
https://www.foldertrade.hu/download/SDS5000X.pdf (https://www.foldertrade.hu/download/SDS5000X.pdf)
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: klaus11 on January 27, 2019, 04:35:52 pm
Maybe a change towards rubber knobs in white or grey neutral color.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on January 27, 2019, 07:08:40 pm
Something somewhat disappointing I noticed in the datasheet is that the bandwidth is limited to 200MHz for anything below and including the 1mV/div range (350MHz model) or even below and including 2.45 mV/div for the 500MHz and 1GHz models. For comparison, the R&S RTB2K has full bandwidth down to the 1mv/div range and the RTM3K down to the 500µV/div range. As far as I can tell, even the Lecroy WS3K scopes have full bandwidth for all voltage ranges (at least I can't find any limitation mentioned in their specs).
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: maginnovision on January 27, 2019, 07:25:07 pm
Something somewhat disappointing I noticed in the datasheet is that the bandwidth is limited to 200MHz for anything below and including the 1mV/div range (350MHz model) or even below and including 2.45 mV/div for the 500MHz and 1GHz models. For comparison, the R&S RTB2K has full bandwidth down to the 1mv/div range and the RTM3K down to the 500µV/div range. As far as I can tell, even the Lecroy WS3K scopes have full bandwidth for all voltage ranges (at least I can't find any limitation mentioned in their specs).

That's one way to keep the noisy front end from causing issues. At least it's pretty decent otherwise. Actually I'm kind of surprised it has less memory than my scope(I have the ext mem option though). Granted the siglent has it all available no matter what where the RTB you can only make full use of it using segmented mode. The ch-ch isolation also seems a little low for this class of instrument? So many little details that make me  ???
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tautech on January 27, 2019, 07:27:13 pm
Maybe a change towards rubber knobs in white or grey neutral color.
The knobs look the same as those used in SDS2kX series and are rubberized. They are much nicer than the plain plastic used in Siglent's other DSO's.
In a SDS2304X I had with some 400 starts, the grip on the knobs was still excellent when I sold it.

Occasionally when doing a lot of Multipurpose knob work I would swap one of the larger knobs onto it for finer control but with the SDS5kX having a touch display and virtual keypads I doubt there will be need for that old trick.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: simone.pignatti on January 27, 2019, 10:38:22 pm
only thing I have to say ... sorry for my voice!

https://youtu.be/CyHuq0ULiNo
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on January 27, 2019, 11:05:58 pm
It's a shame they didn't learn from LeCroy how design a top notch frontend. Everything else looks pretty much promising.
I guess there are no advanced search/analysis features either like "WaveScan" on the LeCroys.
Still, despite of some drawbacks, this sure looks like interesting entry in the 500MHz/1GHz area where at the moment there's simply nothing in this price class (without hacking etc.).
Let's hope they don't mess anything major up.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: Performa01 on January 27, 2019, 11:18:08 pm
Actually I'm kind of surprised it has less memory than my scope(I have the ext mem option though).
I would be interesting what scope you have that provides more than 2x250Mpts resp. 4x125Mpts = 500Mpts total, even with an extended memory option?

The ch-ch isolation also seems a little low for this class of instrument? So many little details that make me  ???
Maybe you should take into account that e.g. R&S RTM3000 claims >50dB channel isolation only for equal sensitivities on each input channel?
Some of Siglent's specifications are painfully conservative - Offset accuracy is another example.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: maginnovision on January 27, 2019, 11:27:58 pm
Actually I'm kind of surprised it has less memory than my scope(I have the ext mem option though).
I would be interesting what scope you have that provides more than 2x250Mpts resp. 4x125Mpts = 500Mpts total, even with an extended memory option?

The ch-ch isolation also seems a little low for this class of instrument? So many little details that make me  ???
Maybe you should take into account that e.g. R&S RTM3000 claims >50dB channel isolation only for equal sensitivities on each input channel?
Some of Siglent's specifications are painfully conservative - Offset accuracy is another example.

The RTB2K with History(ext mem) has 160 x 4(320 x 2) Mpts. Not sure about siglent but you get the same memory for logic also but that's not really 1:1. The RTM has something like 200 x 4Mpts. You can say they're conservative but the datasheet says what it says.  :-//

That wasn't the only example of odd things it was just one that stood out enough for me to query about. If I were still looking at the datasheet I could ask you more but I just started working so can't right now. One thing I did notice is the timebase accuracy is very good. Actually thinking about segmented memory reminded me... The Siglent was something like 2us and the RTM is 200ns between acqs, that's pretty significant.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on January 28, 2019, 05:31:34 pm
Batronix has them in stock now. The SDS5054X sells for 5901.21€. At least this sounds somewhat more realistic than the (insane) ~9758€ Rigol asks for a DS7054 (which doesn't even have an MSO option). Then again, my understanding is that the  Rigol DS7014 could be currently "upgraded" to a DS7054, so this comparison is a bit off anyway.
So let's see if there will be some kind of promotion or whatever. I still think that 6k€ is too much for a Siglent with so-so frontend and much worse support, probe availability and resell value compared to an A brand.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: colorado.rob on January 28, 2019, 06:18:12 pm
important to say the 350MHz can not be upgraded to 1GHz

Does that mean that the 350MHz version can be upgraded to 500MHz?  And that the 500MHz version can be upgraded to 1GHz?

What I really want is an SDS2204X-E, mostly because the LA and protocol decoders on the SDS2204X did not meet expectations and do not meet my needs.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on January 28, 2019, 07:08:15 pm
Does that mean that the 350MHz version can be upgraded to 500MHz?  And that the 500MHz version can be upgraded to 1GHz?
Options are listed in the datasheet. There's the explicit phrase there "SDS5034X/SDS5032X cannot be upgraded to SDS5104X/SDS5102X".
So yes, you can update from 350MHz to 500MHz and from 500MHz to 1GHz but not from 350MHz to 1GHz.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tautech on January 28, 2019, 07:22:32 pm
So let's see if there will be some kind of promotion or whatever. I still think that 6k€ is too much for a Siglent with so-so frontend and much worse support, probe availability and resell value compared to an A brand.
Why do you think/imagine this to be the case ?  :-//

Did you not see this ?
Siglent has always been open for requests from competent folks............

Regarding the “other little things”, rest assured that they are seriously considered (by Siglent)..............
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on January 28, 2019, 07:31:10 pm
Well, don't get me wrong but I can't imagine that the Siglent support can compete with e.g. LeCroy at company level. Like our local LeCroy sales guy came to our department several times to present new scopes, gave us replacement handles for old scopes for free etc. Besides, bigger companies get discounts and if you ask for some additional discount like some decoders included for free, you usually get that as well. Stuff like this.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tautech on January 28, 2019, 07:51:45 pm
Well, don't get me wrong but I can't imagine that the Siglent support can compete with e.g. LeCroy at company level. Like our local LeCroy sales guy came to our department several times to present new scopes, gave us replacement handles for old scopes for free etc. Besides, bigger companies get discounts and if you ask for some additional discount like some decoders included for free, you usually get that as well. Stuff like this.
Siglent support is branch based, Hamburg, Ohio or Shenzhen.
The real brand face to face support is at the distributor/dealer level......we are the guys that knock on doors to offer what support we can.......little things like folding bail handles are cheaper than beer at your local pub !
I had to get one for a customer and it was so cheap the paperwork to charge for it would have cost more so I sent it through NC.

The vast majority of support can be provided via emails however one must consider who goes to the effort of providing good support must also have the funding for it from sales profits.
There are no free lunches.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: 2N3055 on January 28, 2019, 07:55:48 pm
Well, don't get me wrong but I can't imagine that the Siglent support can compete with e.g. LeCroy at company level. Like our local LeCroy sales guy came to our department several times to present new scopes, gave us replacement handles for old scopes for free etc. Besides, bigger companies get discounts and if you ask for some additional discount like some decoders included for free, you usually get that as well. Stuff like this.

I keep hearing that.
I think support is highly dependent on country.

When I tried to contact them to try to buy a scope, they literally fucked me off , pardon my French. I am small company that would buy one ws3000 or maybe a refurbished one of larger models.
They couldn't care less for me. Too small to care for. And after I already purchased something else, the model I was interested in was offered on E-bay for less than I offered.

I bought Keysight MSO3000T because Keysight was willing to listen to me and respected me as a customer no matter how small I was.

LeCroy was my first choice, I like their concept. After that experience I was sure that if I bought the scope they would give me shit support.

In my experience so far, Siglent and Rigol gave me better support than LeCroy, with Keysight being best so far.
Your mileage may vary...

Regards,

Sinisa
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on January 28, 2019, 08:27:53 pm
For sure it's a difference if you work for an international company with thousands of employees or a small one with just a few people. Still, you don't want to seriously put Rigol over LeCroy support. The few times I tried to contact Rigol they were either totally incompetent or lied or a mixture of both. For many years you had to beg to get a firmware update and then there was a 30% chance to brick your device. Maybe things got better, but my confidence in Rigol support is totally shattered. Keysight and LeCroy were/are just a totally different league - at least at company level.
I honestly can't tell anything about Siglent or how Keysight or Lecroy would treat me as private customer. So maybe I did Siglent injustice. I just find it hard to believe they have a large local support team of application engineers who are native speakers and know their instruments inside out but maybe I'm wrong.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: BillB on January 28, 2019, 09:14:17 pm
When I tried to contact them to try to buy a scope, they literally fucked me off...

Wow, I really hope that wasn't the case.  I hope it was figuratively!   :D
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: 2N3055 on January 28, 2019, 09:31:52 pm
When I tried to contact them to try to buy a scope, they literally fucked me off...

Wow, I really hope that wasn't the case.  I hope it was figuratively!   :D

LOL !!  :-DD
Yes you got it right...
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: Martin72 on January 28, 2019, 09:41:24 pm
Batronix has them in stock now. The SDS5054X sells for 5901.21€. At least this sounds somewhat more realistic than the (insane) ~9758€ Rigol asks for a DS7054 (which doesn't even have an MSO option). Then again, my understanding is that the  Rigol DS7014 could be currently "upgraded" to a DS7054, so this comparison is a bit off anyway.
So let's see if there will be some kind of promotion or whatever. I still think that 6k€ is too much for a Siglent with so-so frontend and much worse support, probe availability and resell value compared to an A brand.

Saw it a few minutes ago (on batronix)….
The prices are in the range of an RTB 2000 or "smaller" WS3000Z ( btw, the siglent´s back looks like a WS3000...), the prices for the rigol 7000s seems like a joke against.
So the 5000s siglent must compete against R&S and Lecroy.
I didn´t see the rigol 7000 as a real opponent for the siglent.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tautech on January 28, 2019, 09:55:09 pm
I honestly can't tell anything about Siglent or how Keysight or Lecroy would treat me as private customer.
Then don't speculate.
Quote
So maybe I did Siglent injustice. I just find it hard to believe they have a large local support team of application engineers who are native speakers and know their instruments inside out but maybe I'm wrong.
A little, hey we have had problems in the past but now with the worldwide team of excellent beta testers and experienced quality staff from the industry that cover most languages we can only get better.
I can say, when I beta tested SDS1104X-E the product managers I dealt with at the factory were wonderful and with excellent English skills.

How big their product teams are, well we can make guesses from the factory info online but certainly they are not large.
IMHO that's a good thing, as a small highly skilled team gets projects done whereas too many cooks can spoil the broth.  ;)
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: nctnico on January 28, 2019, 09:58:32 pm
Well, don't get me wrong but I can't imagine that the Siglent support can compete with e.g. LeCroy at company level. Like our local LeCroy sales guy came to our department several times to present new scopes, gave us replacement handles for old scopes for free etc. Besides, bigger companies get discounts and if you ask for some additional discount like some decoders included for free, you usually get that as well. Stuff like this.
I keep hearing that.
I think support is highly dependent on country.

When I tried to contact them to try to buy a scope, they literally fucked me off , pardon my French. I am small company that would buy one ws3000 or maybe a refurbished one of larger models.
They couldn't care less for me. Too small to care for. And after I already purchased something else, the model I was interested in was offered on E-bay for less than I offered.
I have a similar experience with Lecroy. I tried to get a good deal on the Wavesurfer 3000 but the local dealer didn't want to do a deal. They offered a Rigol instead  :palm:  (am I at 'Toys are us' now?). Since then I don't bother with Lecroy. Also I won't buy Siglent stuff from the local distributor I bought my SDS2204 from. Utterly useless and they didn't want to take it back when it turned out to be a complete turd. Unfortunately you won't know the level of service until you really need service.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on January 28, 2019, 10:31:27 pm
Then don't speculate.
Well, I will speculate as much as I desire. I sure hope your tone is nicer when dealing with customers as else this would somehow justify my prejudice.

I have a similar experience with Lecroy. I tried to get a good deal on the Wavesurfer 3000 but the local dealer didn't want to do a deal. They offered a Rigol instead  :palm:  (am I at 'Toys are us' now?). Since then I don't bother with Lecroy. Also I won't buy Siglent stuff from the local distributor I bought my SDS2204 from. Utterly useless and they didn't want to take it back when it turned out to be a complete turd. Unfortunately you won't know the level of service until you really need service.
That is an experience with some dealer, not with LeCroy or their support.

But anyway, this has gone a bit offtopic. Partly my fault for which I excuse. Maybe we should focus on the SDS5000X again.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: nctnico on January 28, 2019, 11:59:19 pm
That is an experience with some dealer, not with LeCroy or their support.
The problem is that for some brands you can't choose a local dealer. It is all divided in geographical areas. Ofcourse you can buy from generic outlets like Farnell, etc but then you can kiss making a deal goodbey.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: JPortici on January 29, 2019, 04:49:35 pm
Batronix has them in stock now. The SDS5054X sells for 5901.21€. At least this sounds somewhat more realistic than the (insane) ~9758€ Rigol asks for a DS7054 (which doesn't even have an MSO option). Then again, my understanding is that the  Rigol DS7014 could be currently "upgraded" to a DS7054, so this comparison is a bit off anyway.
So let's see if there will be some kind of promotion or whatever. I still think that 6k€ is too much for a Siglent with so-so frontend and much worse support, probe availability and resell value compared to an A brand.

Saw it a few minutes ago (on batronix)….
The prices are in the range of an RTB 2000 or "smaller" WS3000Z ( btw, the siglent´s back looks like a WS3000...), the prices for the rigol 7000s seems like a joke against.
So the 5000s siglent must compete against R&S and Lecroy.
I didn´t see the rigol 7000 as a real opponent for the siglent.


You get it. I find that the GUI, the general looks and features take a lot of inspiration from LeCroy.

0xdeadbeef raise a good point on the probe interface, i don't think i've seen any document about it...
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: Performa01 on January 31, 2019, 01:43:27 pm
here is a picture of the 1GHz active probe Siglent SAP1000

I happen to have a frequency response graph for an engineering sample of the SAP1000. Together with the pre-production unit of the SDS5104X, frequency response is flat within +2/-3dB up to >1.1GHz.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/at-last-siglent_s-sds5054x-touchscreen/?action=dlattach;attach=639709;image)
SDS5104X_SAP1000_FFT_FR_2GHz_5mV_02


Even though only rated as 500MHz (and there will not be many useful applications at the higher frequencies because of the capacitive load), the supplied passive probes are quite impressive as well . When driven from a 25 Ohm source, frequency response is flat within +/-1.5dB up to ~1050MHz.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/at-last-siglent_s-sds5054x-touchscreen/?action=dlattach;attach=639715;image)
SDS5104X_SP3050A_FFT_FR_2GHz_20mV_01
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tautech on February 02, 2019, 09:47:26 am
Product info now available on all Siglent websites
http://www.siglent.com/ENs/pdxx.aspx?id=2749&T=2&tid=1 (http://www.siglent.com/ENs/pdxx.aspx?id=2749&T=2&tid=1)
https://www.siglentamerica.com/digital-oscilloscopes/sds5000x/ (https://www.siglentamerica.com/digital-oscilloscopes/sds5000x/)
https://www.siglenteu.com/digital-oscilloscopes/sds5000x/ (https://www.siglenteu.com/digital-oscilloscopes/sds5000x/)
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: bugi on February 02, 2019, 11:20:44 am
Why do they call the AWG option "built-in" in the header/title of that section, when it seems to actually be an external device, just being controlled by the scope software (like 2000X-E, which has "module" in the corresponding title)?
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on February 02, 2019, 12:17:19 pm
I think this was somewhat clear from the very first announcements. Still, it's a bit of a shame that even using an external box, the output signals are limited to +/-3.3V. Also I understand arbitrary waveforms can only use 16k Points.
-> seem somewhat pointless like most "integrated" AWGs.

Honestly, the option model is a bit weird anyway. While it's nice and fait that standard decoders come with the scope, the bundle/price politic seems strange. Like you get CAN for free, but the CAN FD decoder costs $329 plus VAT even though CAN FD just adds a few additional data lengths and the ID part can be sent in higher frequency. So it's a minimum change to an existing decoder for 1ß% of the base model's price. It would have been more air and sensible to include I2S and put CAN, CAN FD and FlexRay in an optional automotive bundle.

I'm also concerned that the MSO and AWG options are split into a HW and SW part. Like the MSO is SDS-5000X-16LA for the SW option on top of the SPL2016 probe. Also I understand you need to purchase the AWG SW option SDS-5000X-FG in addition to the actual USB AWG SAG1021.

Well, I personally can live without the MSO option and the AWG seems much to limited anyway to put any serious money in it, so it doesn't really concern me much. I just don't like the idea of charging twice.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: rf-loop on February 02, 2019, 02:36:31 pm


I'm also concerned that the MSO and AWG options are split into a HW and SW part. Like the MSO is SDS-5000X-16LA for the SW option on top of the SPL2016 probe. Also I understand you need to purchase the AWG SW option SDS-5000X-FG in addition to the actual USB AWG SAG1021.


AWG
Why you are concerned about splitted HW and SW?
Just tiny example, if user need signal source only for under 25MHz bode plot he  can just buy SAG1021 HW and nothing else. He not forced to buy SW license.

MSO
User need only buy SW license once.
He can then buy probe as often as need when these wear and tear. Probes are easy-to-wear and breakable goods when used continuously i real work. One accidental drop to floor and then someone walk, one accidental touch with soldering iron, and so on and so on. In some cases 16 channel LA probe is more easy to leave installed when need do some other things. Time is money, so 2 or 3 probes are perhaps more economy than always install probe lines specially if DUT is bit difficult to connect. Only need buy one SW.
Then need only buy probes if need more or one is worn.  Just as buy car tires or brake pads.
 
Or if have many scopes (example on some workshop) but only rare need MSO. Then license to all scopes but only one probe.
I think it is best that user can select what he need and what not.


Old times in one place we buy scopes and triple probe sets for all scopes, because all know that working in "field" is best place to loose probes or defect them. Just one turn and oups.. ... "it was probe". Who have time to wait new probes when need do work. Travel and/or waiting hours may cost 100 or "sky is limit" times more than one shit probe. Also I buy new  socks after they worn... some times buy just new ones if they smell or looks dirty - depending situation and good socks price is like "el cheapo" standard probe" and bit better probe is like shirt, if it wear or looks dirty just buy new one.  If trousers looks worn, well I buy new trousers and _good_ trousers price is nearly as one LA probe.

I'm much more concerned if HW and SW for options are welded together.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on February 02, 2019, 06:32:24 pm
They could just as well only sell the HW and make the SW option free as this is the case for other scopes.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: Martin72 on February 02, 2019, 11:41:23 pm
Quote
Just tiny example, if user need signal source only for under 25MHz bode plot he  can just buy SAG1021 HW and nothing else. He not forced to buy SW license.


To me it seems, you must buy a license too to use the SAG1021.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: Rerouter on February 02, 2019, 11:45:34 pm
for bode plot its free, for AWG usage where you can set the frequency amplitude, etc its by license only.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: Martin72 on February 02, 2019, 11:51:00 pm
Ah, ok...
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on February 03, 2019, 12:52:01 am
Still, the AWG hardware costs like 140€ (without VAT) and I understand you could use all the AWG features with the free EasyWave SW from the PC while you are supposed to pay another 250€ (without VAT) to do the same from the scope (while you could get an SDG1032X for less)? BTW: for the SDS1004X-E, the SW licenses are around 100€ for LA and AWG which seems more reasonable and fair.
Admittedly, all manufacturers charge much higher prices for the very same licenses on the more expensive scopes. I can somewhat understand the business reasoning behind it (if you can afford 10k for a scope, you can also pay 1k for a piece SW), but it still feels like a ripoff.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: Rerouter on February 03, 2019, 03:22:41 am
the AWG they are using is maximum amplitude of 6V pk-pk, with a maximum output of +-4V, e.g. 6V amplitude with a 1V offset,

Above that it triggers the "Output protection" I haven't yet dug into where that is in the margins. and the function can be turned off, But i would like to know what its protecting first.

You can think of it as the second channel of a SDG1025, I am trying to work out if the output voltage can be increased, but not there just yet.

The DAC alone is capable of 125MHz update rate. and it is indeed being updated at that rate, this is obvious because It has 1 sample time worth of jitter when you get close to the maximum frequency (this isn't a design flaw, Its just the limitation of the sampling rate vs output frequency resulting in a poor division)

Equally it has an arb repeat rate of up to 5MHz, and does this by picking intermediate samples when the repeat rate is faster than the update rate can handle. so technically there is no reason this cannot output a 62.5MHz square wave, though it would be much closer to a triangle wave at that point.

Edit: The output has 3 output ranges, 4-63mV pk-pk (+-705mV Offset), 64-631mV pk-pk (+-4V Offset),  and 632-6000mV pk-pk (+-4V Offset) I cannot yet clarify if they have the full 14 bit resolution for all 3 ranges, or if its switching something else.

Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tautech on February 04, 2019, 08:23:08 am
Why do they call the AWG option "built-in" in the header/title of that section, when it seems to actually be an external device, just being controlled by the scope software (like 2000X-E, which has "module" in the corresponding title)?
Yes, I can see how this could be confusing:
25 MHz function / arbitrary waveform generator, built-in multiple predefined waveforms

Maybe a better wording would be in-built and addition of Optional module, however this is only describing the waveform types available in the optional SAG1021 AWG external HW.

These new SDS5000X, SDS2000X-E and SDS1*04X-E all share the SAG1021 AWG HW.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: Martin72 on February 04, 2019, 09:47:22 am
Still confusing…
So you must buy the HW (SAG1021) and SW (License) to use the AWG functionality?
Or to use the SAG1021 itself?
So the scopes are only the frontpanel for it, right ?
The option cost 296€ (incl. VAT) plus the SAG1021 for 165€....
Why should I spend about 460€ for a 1-Ch AWG with limited possibilities....
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: Rerouter on February 04, 2019, 10:13:32 am
Correct Martin, to use it via the scope UI you need to buy both the device, and the licence,

whereas if you have an external siglent AWG, you can still use bode plot mode with it out of the box. Its only the control of the USB AWG from the scope UI that would are paying for with the license.

The other pain I hope they address is the UI controls do not expose everything the device can do, only the "BasicWave" mode, One thing I have put on the table that should make things better is a Waveform Copy - Paste function, So from the UI you could replay waveforms, But I suspect that will take a few firmware updates to become a reality.

This thing can be more than a toy (output voltage limitations aside), you just can't really pull off the fun stuff without using SCPI commands at this point in time, E.g. you can have it setup to repeat a AWG waveform when the frequency counter input gets a trigger event, so you run this to the scope trigger output and can have something that can burst out a AWG waveform on a pattern match of the scope, The functionality is there, I just cant use it without connecting a PC to it.....

To be flat out honest, I bought the device and Licence for my 1000X-E scope, Its useful, but the limitations to the UI hurt when the license is 20% of the purchase price of that scope itself, and feels more like 0.1% of the dev time.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tautech on February 04, 2019, 10:42:14 am
Still confusing…
So you must buy the HW (SAG1021) and SW (License) to use the AWG functionality?
Yes.
Quote
Or to use the SAG1021 itself?
Only for Bode plot.........but check the documentation as I believe its not been enabled in SDS5kX firmware just yet.
Quote
So the scopes are only the frontpanel for it, right ?
Correct, there's some usage examples in the User manual.
Quote
The option cost 296€ (incl. VAT) plus the SAG1021 for 165€....
Why should I spend about 460€ for a 1-Ch AWG with limited possibilities....
Where ?  :-//
US pricing for SDS2kX-E and 1kX-E SAG1021 HW and SW license is $ 288 ...........sure no taxes but 460 Euro ?  :o  :scared:
It makes no sense the AWG HW option and licensing for SDS5kX should/could be that much more expensive.  :-//

Edit to add
Just hunted out SDS5kX pricing and shocked !
SAG1021 HW             $ 159 (as expected)
SDS-5000X-FG SW $$$ 289  :o  Seems like an error.................
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: 2N3055 on February 04, 2019, 10:49:06 am
Where ?  :-//
US pricing for SDS2kX-E and 1kX-E SAG1021 HW and SW license is $ 288 ...........sure no taxes but 460 Euro ?  :o  :scared:
It makes no sense the AWG HW option and licensing for SDS5kX should/could be that much more expensive.  :-//

Batronix lists it as € 296.31 incl. 19% VAT + € 165.41 incl. 19% VAT. Same in Batterfly, few € up or down.

Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tautech on February 04, 2019, 11:05:14 am
Where ?  :-//
US pricing for SDS2kX-E and 1kX-E SAG1021 HW and SW license is $ 288 ...........sure no taxes but 460 Euro ?  :o  :scared:
It makes no sense the AWG HW option and licensing for SDS5kX should/could be that much more expensive.  :-//

Batronix lists it as € 296.31 incl. 19% VAT + € 165.41 incl. 19% VAT. Same in Batterfly, few € up or down.
Thanks but that doesn't explain why just the FG SW option for SDS5kX is the same price as for both the SAG1021 HW and SW license for SDS2kX-E and 1kX-E models.
Seems wrong ......we dealers need ask some questions.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: Performa01 on February 04, 2019, 11:38:03 am
The RTB2K with History(ext mem) has 160 x 4(320 x 2) Mpts. Not sure about siglent but you get the same memory for logic also but that's not really 1:1. The RTM has something like 200 x 4Mpts.
Okay, I've overlooked the additional memory that comes with the Segmented Memory option. To be honest I didn't expect an A-brand to be so generous, but then again, R&S seems to be different ;)

You can say they're conservative but the datasheet says what it says.  :-//
I have measured the actual channel isolation at 580MHz on my pre-production unit and the worst case scenario was from Ch.3 (FS) to Ch.4, both at 5mV/div, resulting in -53dB crosstalk. In all other cases, the isolation was significantly higher:
Ch.1 (5mV/div – 1V/div, FS) to Ch.4, isolation 79-90dB
Ch.2 (5mV/div – 1V/div, FS) to Ch.4, isolation 64-108dB
Ch.3 (5mV/div – 1V/div, FS) to Ch.4, isolation 53-88dB

Actually thinking about segmented memory reminded me... The Siglent was something like 2us and the RTM is 200ns between acqs, that's pretty significant.
Yes it is. BTW, actually measured lowest re-arm time between acquistions was 1.49µs for the SDS5104X.

Generally, the SDS5000X cannot be both cheaper and better than all the competition and in every regard. While its waveform update rate might not be particularly fast, I’m positive the functionality of the SDS5000X will look rather good once it’s feature-complete.

Why do they call the AWG option "built-in" in the header/title of that section, when it seems to actually be an external device, just being controlled by the scope software (like 2000X-E, which has "module" in the corresponding title)?
That’s just a copy & paste error. There have been several such occurrences in the datasheet, most of them got corrected, but the Header on page 7 has been overlooked…


Those who think the SAG1021 + SW Option is not very attractive, you are not alone. To be honest, I don’t understand the whole idea of a built-in (or external USB powered brick) AWG. On a small portable service oscilloscope okay, where the tech doesn’t want to carry more items than absolutely necessary. But on a lab instrument, especially one that is not intended for the hobbyist market?

If I were in that situation, I would of course get something more versatile and powerful instead, like the SDG1032X (or above, especially for a 1GHz scope), without a second thought.

A complete review of the SAG1021 (well, at least the HW and what’s accessible through the scope UI) can be found in this thread, replies #48/49:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1432665/#msg1432665 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1432665/#msg1432665)
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: Martin72 on February 04, 2019, 12:12:56 pm
Correct Martin, to use it via the scope UI you need to buy both the device, and the licence,

whereas if you have an external siglent AWG, you can still use bode plot mode with it out of the box. Its only the control of the USB AWG from the scope UI that would are paying for with the license.

Therefore welectron (german siglent distributor) did a suggest to buy a stand-alone AWG.
I bought a SDG1032X, it got two channels and much better specs.
And cost 403 €.....
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tautech on February 04, 2019, 03:41:52 pm
Those who think the SAG1021 + SW Option is not very attractive, you are not alone. To be honest, I don’t understand the whole idea of a built-in (or external USB powered brick) AWG. On a small portable service oscilloscope okay, where the tech doesn’t want to carry more items than absolutely necessary. But on a lab instrument, especially one that is not intended for the hobbyist market?

If I were in that situation, I would of course get something more versatile and powerful instead, like the SDG1032X (or above, especially for a 1GHz scope), without a second thought.
Agreed, on all counts, however it's not like Siglent hasn't later added AWG HW into a DSO as they did for SDS1000X models where it is an additional internal PCB, first it was called the X-S then later the 1000X+ that offered MSO and internal AWG.
These are still available and the basic SDS1000X MSO model without internal AWG is just some $ 240 less than SDS1000X+ models with the additional internal AWG PCB.

For the SDS2000 and 2000X models AWG HW was incorporated into the mainboard in all models from first release.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on February 04, 2019, 06:01:55 pm
Talking of weird pricing: Batronix offers the update "SDS-5000X-4BW10" from 4ch 500MHz to 1GHz for 320€  ;D
Sadly a mistake obviously. I guess they meant 3200€ :(
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: maginnovision on February 04, 2019, 06:22:09 pm
Talking of weird pricing: Batronix offers the update "SDS-5000X-4BW10" from 4ch 500MHz to 1GHz for 320€  ;D
Sadly a mistake obviously. I guess they meant 3200€ :(

No, I think that's the pricing.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on February 04, 2019, 06:24:26 pm
Nah...
http://www.saelig.com/product/sds-5000x-4bw10.htm (http://www.saelig.com/product/sds-5000x-4bw10.htm)
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tv84 on February 04, 2019, 06:27:52 pm
These romans are crazy!!!  It shouldn't be one or the other but... big/strange marketing strategies in play!

Batronix (VAT included):

Siglent SDS5052X - 5484.71€
Siglent SDS5102X - 6222.51€

Why pay 3.200€ for the upgrade?

I think, we'll soon start seeing this option also:  or Best Offer    :-DD
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: maginnovision on February 04, 2019, 06:28:27 pm
Nah...
http://www.saelig.com/product/sds-5000x-4bw10.htm (http://www.saelig.com/product/sds-5000x-4bw10.htm)

Yea, that's odd because the upfront cost difference for 500-1000 with same channels is way less.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on February 04, 2019, 07:04:14 pm
The upgrade option is usually more expensive than the price difference between two models of different bandwidth. Still, this upgrade seems to be especially expensive.
@tv84: you compared the 2ch prices, but this is the 4ch upgrade. The 4ch price difference of the 500MHz and 1GHz model is 1666€. So the upgrade options costs about twice of that.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tv84 on February 04, 2019, 07:33:46 pm
The upgrade option is usually more expensive than the price difference between two models of different bandwidth. Still, this upgrade seems to be especially expensive.
@tv84: you compared the 2ch prices, but this is the 4ch upgrade. The 4ch price difference of the 500MHz and 1GHz model is 1666€. So the upgrade options costs about twice of that.

I would understand that if it was a hardware upgrade.

Yes, I compared the 2ch but the 4ch was also not 3.2k.

It's a pricing strategy as any other...
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: egonotto on February 04, 2019, 11:09:02 pm
Hello,



Actually thinking about segmented memory reminded me... The Siglent was something like 2us and the RTM is 200ns between acqs, that's pretty significant.
Yes it is. BTW, actually measured lowest re-arm time between acquistions was 1.49µs for the SDS5104X.




In the datasheet of the RTM3000 there is:
 "continuous recording of waveforms in acquisition memory without interruption due to
visualization; blind time between consecutive acquisitions less than 1.5 μs"

I can not find 200ns.

And the total memory (per channel) is "At interleaved mode." in the datasheet of the RTM3000
Is this in the RTB2000 different or forget they the "At interleaved mode." in the datasheet of the RTB2000?

Best regards
egonotto

Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: Performa01 on February 05, 2019, 12:17:08 am
Hello,

In the datasheet of the RTM3000 there is:
 "continuous recording of waveforms in acquisition memory without interruption due to
visualization; blind time between consecutive acquisitions less than 1.5 μs"

I can not find 200ns.

And the total memory (per channel) is "At interleaved mode." in the datasheet of the RTM3000
Is this in the RTB2000 different or forget they the "At interleaved mode." in the datasheet of the RTB2000?
What version of the datasheet do you look at?

Version 06.00, January 2019 (on page 24):
Quote
Fast-segmented mode continuous recording of waveforms in acquisition memory without interruption due to visualization; blind time between consecutive acquisitions less than 200 ns
(up to 2 000 000 waveforms/s)

The waveform update rate in fast segmented mode is really impressive - less so during regular operation, where it's just 64k wfm/s.

Yes, the total memory is specified for interleaved mode (= per channel pair) and there it can reach a maximum of 428Mpts, but only in segmented mode and only with the K15 Option (which is some €1000,- without tax). For regular acquisition it is just 80Mpts (interleaved).

The RTB2000 has 2.5µs re-arm time (300k wfm/s) in fast segmented mode and up to 320Mpts memory (interleaved).
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: egonotto on February 05, 2019, 01:30:01 am
Hello,

thanks for the answer.

I used the datasheet from Batronix it is Version 05.00,  December 2017.

It is an impressive improvement.

Best regard
egonotto
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on February 05, 2019, 06:55:28 pm
Actually thinking about segmented memory reminded me... The Siglent was something like 2us and the RTM is 200ns between acqs, that's pretty significant.
Yes it is. BTW, actually measured lowest re-arm time between acquistions was 1.49µs for the SDS5104X.
Interesting though that the SDSX5000 datasheet states a minimum (!) dead time of 2µs.
In contrast to this, the 200ns given for the RTM3K is the maximum value. So actually comparing both value doesn't make much sense anyway.
Still, while the 200ns dead/blind time sure is impressive, I don't think 2µs or so would be much of an issue in 99.9% of all the cases where you use segmented memory.
The only thing that concerns me is that Siglent doesn't specify a maximum value at all which makes it impossible to judge if this is a major issue or not.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: 2N3055 on February 05, 2019, 07:19:59 pm
I'm confused:
That RTM3000 /RTA4000 spec says :

continuous recording of waveforms in acquisition memory without interruption due to
visualization; blind time between consecutive acquisitions less than 200 ns
(up to 2 000 000 waveforms/s)


They should decide whether is:
200 ns and (up to 5 000 000 waveforms/s)
or
500 ns and (up to 2 000 000 waveforms/s)

 
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: nctnico on February 05, 2019, 07:28:21 pm
I'm confused:
That RTM3000 /RTA4000 spec says :

continuous recording of waveforms in acquisition memory without interruption due to
visualization; blind time between consecutive acquisitions less than 200 ns
(up to 2 000 000 waveforms/s)


They should decide whether is:
200 ns and (up to 5 000 000 waveforms/s)
or
500 ns and (up to 2 000 000 waveforms/s)
There will be a minimum amount of time needed to do the acquisitions as well (time per sample * number of samples). So the total time per frame equals to the acquisition time plus the dead time.

Interesting though that the SDSX5000 datasheet states a minimum (!) dead time of 2µs.
In contrast to this, the 200ns given for the RTM3K is the maximum value. So actually comparing both value doesn't make much sense anyway. or not.
IMHO Siglent probably got minimum and maximum confused. It doesn't make sense to specify minimum dead time. Maybe they reasoned the smallest guaranteed dead time is 2us and thought they should put that under minimum because it is the smallest (which is wrong ofcourse).
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: maginnovision on February 05, 2019, 07:29:03 pm
I'm confused:
That RTM3000 /RTA4000 spec says :

continuous recording of waveforms in acquisition memory without interruption due to
visualization; blind time between consecutive acquisitions less than 200 ns
(up to 2 000 000 waveforms/s)


They should decide whether is:
200 ns and (up to 5 000 000 waveforms/s)
or
500 ns and (up to 2 000 000 waveforms/s)

Presumably they assume it takes time to capture data, it's not 100% re arm time.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: 2N3055 on February 05, 2019, 07:39:45 pm

There will be a minimum amount of time needed to do the acquisitions as well (time per sample * number of samples). So the total time per frame equals to the acquisition time plus the dead time.

Of course, but that still means that blind time + sweep cannot be less than 500 ns.
And if you set it to 10ns /div that is 120 ns +200 ns = 320 ns.
Blind time is not only rearm time, but rearm + processing overhead time.
Max. 2 Mwaveforms means a trigger every 500 ns.

It's nitpicking, I know but specifications are specification.

Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on February 05, 2019, 07:40:54 pm
Interesting though that the SDSX5000 datasheet states a minimum (!) dead time of 2µs.
In contrast to this, the 200ns given for the RTM3K is the maximum value. So actually comparing both value doesn't make much sense anyway. or not.
IMHO Siglent probably got minimum and maximum confused. It doesn't make sense to specify minimum dead time. Maybe they reasoned the smallest guaranteed dead time is 2us and thought they should put that under minimum because it is the smallest (which is wrong ofcourse).
I would tend to agree, but they state it as minimum twice in the data sheet.
1) "The dead time between segments can be as small as 2 μs."
2) "dead time = 2 μs min"
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: nctnico on February 05, 2019, 07:46:28 pm
I'm pretty sure Siglent got minimum and maximum confused.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: 2N3055 on February 05, 2019, 07:56:55 pm
Specification  for SDS5000X says:

Waveform Capture Rate (Max.)
110,000 wfm/s (normal mode),480,000 wfm/s (sequence mode)
that is slightly over 2 us between segments.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on February 05, 2019, 07:57:54 pm
I'm pretty sure Siglent got minimum and maximum confused.
I hope you're right, but then they also got "small" and "big" confused. So these guys must be rather confused.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: Performa01 on February 08, 2019, 11:53:27 pm
I'm pretty sure Siglent got minimum and maximum confused.
I hope you're right, but then they also got "small" and "big" confused. So these guys must be rather confused.
Well, perhaps the folks at Keysight are confused too (quote from DSOX3000T datasheet):
Quote
Segmented memory optimizes available memory for data streams that have long dead times between activity. Maximum segments = 1000. Re-arm time = 1 μs (minimum time between trigger events)

I have double checked sequence recording with the latest firmware and found the minimum re-arm time to be slightly improved to <1.4µs.

The maximum waveform update rate in sequence mode was originally specified as 500kwfm/s but I had to request a down-rating to 480kwfm/s (as in the current datasheet) because I could not get more than some 490kwfm/s maximum with an early firmware. Now I’m glad to see the original spec is met with the most recent firmware at >517kwfm/s.

The maximum number of segments is 100.000, as specified.

BTW, the R&S RTM3000 with RTM-K15 option does not offer more total acquisition memory than the Siglent SDS5000X:

Siglent SDS5000X provides >400Mpts for record lengths of 50kpts to 25Mpts, with a maximum of 433.5Mpts at a record length of 500kpts (>=430Mpts for record lengths of 1, 2.5 and 5 Mpts).

R&S RTM3000: >400Mpts for record lengths of 200kpts to 20Mpts, with a maximum of 428Mpts at a record length of 2Mpts.

There’s still the fact that the SDS5000X can have record lengths up to 250Mpts, whereas the RTM3000 is limited to 80Mpts.

Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: nctnico on February 09, 2019, 12:40:37 am
The problem with deep memory is that a powerful processor is needed to do something useful with it. It is interesting to see how the SDS5000X deals with decoding and math for example. Doing a search in a trace of 250Mpts may take forever. The RTM3000 already needs a few seconds to search through 80Mpts for a simple condition. With great memory comes the need for great processing power.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: Rerouter on February 09, 2019, 03:26:48 am
I feel I should ask this, If the decoding done by the FPGA, or by the ARM CPU?

Seeing as they are sticking to simple protocols I suspect FPGA based, in which case it can probably decode as fast as the sample rate, but I'm curious.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: Rerouter on February 09, 2019, 09:32:08 am
Don't know what of this is known, but there have been some not easily navigable pages appear for all the purchasable Option Codes.

SDS-5000X-4BW05
SDS-5000X-2BW05
SDS-5000X-4BW10
SDS-5000X-2BW10
SDS-5000X-FG
SDS-5000X-16LA
SDS-5000X-I2S
SDS-5000X-FlexRay
SDS-5000X-CANFD
SDS-5000X-1553B
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: Performa01 on February 09, 2019, 11:16:53 am
The problem with deep memory is that a powerful processor is needed to do something useful with it. It is interesting to see how the SDS5000X deals with decoding and math for example. Doing a search in a trace of 250Mpts may take forever. The RTM3000 already needs a few seconds to search through 80Mpts for a simple condition. With great memory comes the need for great processing power.

One of the main reasons for deep memory is the legitimate request for analyzing signals that contain vastly different frequency components at the same time, such as narrow pulses at low repetition rate, without the need to bother with crouches like peak detect, which would destroy the original waveform and is therefore utterly useless for any kind of signal analysis.

The SDS5000X can maintain full sample rate up to 5ms/div, so we can capture a 50ms record without losing any detail (which can be inspected in zoom mode) and without giving a second thought about aliasing.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/at-last-siglent_s-sds5054x-touchscreen/?action=dlattach;attach=647819;image)
SDS5104X_Mem_250Mpts_Zoom_1ns

Attached is a short (5s) video in an archive “Search 02.zip” that contains the mp4 and demonstrates the search speed by showing a sine wave with periodic exponential increase in amplitude, which also leads to an increasing slew rate. The scope triggers on the sync signal of the signal generator, while the search function looks for edges that have a slew rate faster than some 7mV/µs. These settings are not entirely unambiguous on purpose, because this causes the search function to be undecided, hence toggle randomly between considering the second to last rising edge as a hit or not and each individual search yields different results. Because of this, we can get a good visual impression and the search function runs at least 15 times in this short video, so it certainly doesn’t take “forever”.


I feel I should ask this, If the decoding done by the FPGA, or by the ARM CPU?

Seeing as they are sticking to simple protocols I suspect FPGA based, in which case it can probably decode as fast as the sample rate, but I'm curious.
If these protocols are “simple”, which ones would be complicated?

Triggering is performed in hardware (FPGA), since it has to work in real time.

Decoding is a task for the MCU, because it is done after the acquisition of a record is complete. Of course the decoders can use the full sample rate, but there always has to be a bit of oversampling, since the internal sample clock is asynchronous with regard to the serial data stream. Traditionally, the decoders don’t need much oversampling.

Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on February 09, 2019, 11:23:54 am
Some scopes are said to use "HW based" decoding. I could imagine the FPGA is used to detect/measure periods from the raw sampled data. It sure speeds up a SW decoder a lot if you can jump from edge to edge instead of going from sample to sample.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: Rerouter on February 09, 2019, 11:36:38 am
By simple I meant mainly confined to single ended signals, and work off a high / low state, e.g. something that FPGA's specialize in.

Still makes me glad to know its software which can be patched, not bit streams that need to be reverse engineered.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on February 09, 2019, 11:44:23 am
Well, perhaps the folks at Keysight are confused too (quote from DSOX3000T datasheet):
Quote
Segmented memory optimizes available memory for data streams that have long dead times between activity. Maximum segments = 1000. Re-arm time = 1 μs (minimum time between trigger events)
This is perfectly correct. The maximum dead/blind time defines the minimum time between trigger events.
However, the siglent data sheet says "The dead time between segments can be as small as 2 μs." which is at least inartfully expressed. Maybe they are trying to say "the time between trigger evens can be as small as 2µs" but by using the term "dead time", they kinda inverted the meaning.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tautech on February 28, 2019, 09:22:11 pm
New publicly available firmware for the SDS5000X series.

This may be the release version as there are no items in the changelog.  :-//

Version V0.8.0R1B5
38.6 MB
http://old.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Firmware&Software/firmware/SDS5000X_0.8.0R1B5_EN.zip (http://old.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Firmware&Software/firmware/SDS5000X_0.8.0R1B5_EN.zip)
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: rf-loop on March 01, 2019, 06:51:37 pm
This may be the release version as there are no items in the changelog.  :-//
Version V0.8.0R1B5

Perhaps or then not... ;)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/at-last-siglent_s-sds5054x-touchscreen/?action=dlattach;attach=665016;image)
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: nctnico on March 01, 2019, 06:54:44 pm
How can they thouroughly test releases which are released with so little time in between?  :-// Who says fixing one bug doesn't introduce another one?
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: Performa01 on March 01, 2019, 09:33:24 pm
How can they thouroughly test releases which are released with so little time in between?  :-// Who says fixing one bug doesn't introduce another one?
Oh yes this would be a valid point - if there were any releases at all. But as anyone really interested in the topic can see, there are none as yet (20190301/22:30):

https://www.siglenteu.com/service-and-support/firmware-software/digital-oscilloscopes/#sds5000x-series (https://www.siglenteu.com/service-and-support/firmware-software/digital-oscilloscopes/#sds5000x-series)

https://www.siglentamerica.com/service-and-support/firmware-software/digital-oscilloscopes/#sds5000x-series (https://www.siglentamerica.com/service-and-support/firmware-software/digital-oscilloscopes/#sds5000x-series)

Just because quite obviously it has become fashionable to advertise internal beta releases, this does not mean that there will be any official release without thorough production testing.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: bugi on March 01, 2019, 11:47:43 pm
How can they thouroughly test releases which are released with so little time in between?  :-// Who says fixing one bug doesn't introduce another one?
It depends on the type of bugs, too. For example, fixing typos or a small change UI color are obviously quite small and independent changes, and easy to "test" (more like "check/confirm that the change got in"). Another example might be e.g. simple fix on DSP math with samples; changing sample values a bit will obviously not break the rest of the math chain (assuming the math is done in a usual way, using "normal" numbers and functions). In these cases, it would be enough to just check that the change/fix itself works.

But of course there are plenty of bugs/changes that (can) mess up a lot, too.

As part of longer development process, devs can choose to e.g. bring lots of easy changes first (with quickly made version(s)), collecting bigger changes to a specific later version which then needs more testing.  At least we do this kind of development with our software, so that we don't have to do the multi-day testing ordeal on every release; small independent changes can be tested as part of the fix process of each individual issue, and a release then rolled out in few hours with few cursory checks.

And the internal-versions vs. actual public releases -stuff as already mentioned by Performa01. Although considering the history, I am quite skeptic on the "...not mean that there will be any official release without thorough production testing" -part :P  But one can always hope for better..
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: nctnico on March 01, 2019, 11:58:44 pm
How can they thouroughly test releases which are released with so little time in between?  :-// Who says fixing one bug doesn't introduce another one?
It depends on the type of bugs, too. For example, fixing typos or a small change UI color are obviously quite small and independent changes, and easy to "test" (more like "check/confirm that the change got in"). Another example might be e.g. simple fix on DSP math with samples; changing sample values a bit will obviously not break the rest of the math chain (assuming the math is done in a usual way, using "normal" numbers and functions). In these cases, it would be enough to just check that the change/fix itself works.
I wouldn't bet my life on that. I've seen weird bugs pop up due to simple fixes. Sure pre-release versions aren't fully tested but look at the lift rf-loop posted. There is about 5 weeks between V0.8.0R1B5 and the previous version. No way there has been some serious development AND testing going on in such a short time frame. I'm involved in software engineering projects myself and much simpler software products take a week to test.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tautech on March 02, 2019, 12:13:11 am
How can they thouroughly test releases which are released with so little time in between?  :-// Who says fixing one bug doesn't introduce another one?
It depends on the type of bugs, too. For example, fixing typos or a small change UI color are obviously quite small and independent changes, and easy to "test" (more like "check/confirm that the change got in"). Another example might be e.g. simple fix on DSP math with samples; changing sample values a bit will obviously not break the rest of the math chain (assuming the math is done in a usual way, using "normal" numbers and functions). In these cases, it would be enough to just check that the change/fix itself works.
I wouldn't bet my life on that. I've seen weird bugs pop up due to simple fixes. Sure pre-release versions aren't fully tested but look at the lift rf-loop posted. There is about 5 weeks between V0.8.0R1B5 and the previous version. No way there has been some serious development AND testing going on in such a short time frame. I'm involved in software engineering projects myself and much simpler software products take a week to test.
Sure, for a small team.

Current SDS5000X beta testers are worldwide and yes a few are EEVblog members too, some of very long standing and experience. Knowing just a few of them I have full faith that they in conjunction with the factory know exactly what they are doing.

Of course it seems the FW version I linked was a beta version (B5) that one might assume has been tested well enough for V08.1R1 shown in rf-loop's list to now be the latest version.

Why was B5 placed on the factory website firmware page, well a 38.6MB file might offer issues to send as an email attachment through some email providers.
Anyways, it's just conjecture as now V08.1R1 seems like the latest version for the beta testers to test with.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: nctnico on March 02, 2019, 12:43:32 am
Letting a few people do random testing isn't software testing but stabbing around in the dark. When I do an oscilloscope review I spend about 20 to 30 hours on testing and I'm not even close to covering 10% of all features. Real software testing means going through each and every function & feature for every possible permutation according to a test plan. For a modern oscilloscope this will take at least 3 to 4 weeks fulltime and it needs to be repeated for every release. And even then the testers won't be able to catch all bugs (which is where beta-testers come in). Test plans usually evolve over time to also catch the more elusive bugs. Software testing is expensive & time consuming and it is tempting to skip it but it will come back and haunt you if you do skip software testing.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: bugi on March 02, 2019, 09:39:34 am
Letting a few people do random testing isn't software testing but stabbing around in the dark.
That sentence assumes that the few people random testing is all there is. I'd think they do much more (still not necessarily enough).

Quote
When I do an oscilloscope review I spend about 20 to 30 hours on testing and I'm not even close to covering 10% of all features. Real software testing means going through each and every function & feature for every possible permutation according to a test plan. For a modern oscilloscope this will take at least 3 to 4 weeks fulltime and it needs to be repeated for every release. And even then the testers won't be able to catch all bugs (which is where beta-testers come in). Test plans usually evolve over time to also catch the more elusive bugs. Software testing is expensive & time consuming and it is tempting to skip it but it will come back and haunt you if you do skip software testing.
The last sentence I can agree 90%. It is often more expensive to skip some testing, yet in many cases much cheaper to do risk management, skip some testing and do few fixes afterwards. It is details of where one can vs. should not skip some testing where I apparently disagree.

The need for full multi-week (or in our case "just" few days) testing only applies when there is either no previous testing done at all (like the situation for an external reviewer, or first release), or when the system is critical (say, space ships or nuclear power facility or such), or if risk management indicates so (like typically for so called "major releases" which have likely collected many changes that have inter-dependencies). As I mentioned before, in practical projects, simple fixes that can be seen clearly to be independent from the rest of the system do not create a need to make full 100% all permutations included -type of testing. Doing full tests for any tiny change would be like shooting a fly with a tank, there is simply no sanity in doing do so in most software projects, including oscilloscopes. (Unless that scope goes into space/nuclear power facility, but in that case, the responsibility and coverage of testing is managed by that project, not by the scope manufacturer).

Sure, sometimes a developer makes a mistake and a "clearly simple" fix ends up having side-effects after all, but these are (at least for us) very rare, and typically are not a disaster even if they slip through. And even when we know a change can have wider effects we still limit testing, simply for keeping the costs sane. Much cheaper to have few micro-level releases afterwards (typically come out in few days between each after a major release) than do the 100% testing beforehand.

That is simple common sense and economic thinking. I'm not the budget manager, and I'm actually one of the most testing-demanding coders in our sub-organization, but even then, I do apply some common sense when deciding testing coverage (per fix and per release).

We do run automated tests (unit tests and some integration tests) on every release, they only take about 2 minutes of work to start and a 50 minutes coffee-break. But those tests won't really cover a lot, especially not UI.


And in the end, it is the customers that define the level of testing they want. If they want 100% testing for every little thing, they need to pay for it. None of our customers have been ready to do so, not even close. Siglent/Rigol customers seem to be typically even less willing to do so.


In short, the "short" time between versions is not (necessarily) a problem here, even if they had been public releases. I'd be fine with even public releases with just one day in between, if the latter release's changelog states merely "changed words chanel->channel, current->selected".

My negative "feelings" towards Siglent's software dev side has grown mostly from them (previously) letting through many bugs that are so obvious to detect that even quick (thus cheap) testing would have caught them, and many of them being so simple (thus cheap) to fix that there really was no excuse for those bugs ever to be seen in public. But all this external beta-testing stuff seems to indicate Siglent is growing up.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on March 04, 2019, 11:08:53 pm
For the record: someone at Batronix finally noticed that the price for the 1GHz update was wrong. It's 2.450,21€ now including VAT.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tv84 on March 04, 2019, 11:48:25 pm
This probably is old news but, according to the bitstreams, it has 2  Xilinx Artix-7 XC7A200T (Part Name: 7a200tffg1156) and a Xilinx Zynq-7020.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: nctnico on April 08, 2019, 04:08:08 pm
Did anyone do a really in-depth review / testing yet?
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: 2N3055 on April 08, 2019, 04:42:32 pm
Did anyone do a really in-depth review / testing yet?
Not that I know of.
I would like  to compare it to MSOX3104T but I'm not prepared to buy one just for that.. It would be interesting to see how it compares in real life scenarios.. I really like the general concept..
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: nctnico on April 08, 2019, 04:46:41 pm
Did anyone do a really in-depth review / testing yet?
Not that I know of.
I would like  to compare it to MSOX3104T but I'm not prepared to buy one just for that.. It would be interesting to see how it compares in real life scenarios.. I really like the general concept..
Same here. For me the big IF is wether the product developers at Siglent got their heads wrapped around decoding the entire acquisition and not just what is on screen.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on April 08, 2019, 05:24:58 pm
I wonder how the 5000X line is actually selling at this price tag. No matter if it's a good price for its capabilities or not: company customers will stick to major brands at that ("invest" range) price tag and for hobby users it's typically above what one could justify for "now and then" use. I guess it would sell a bit better if the 350MHz version could be upgraded to 1GHz. Then some people might take the risk hoping it will get hacked to 1GHz.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: 2N3055 on April 08, 2019, 05:59:22 pm
I wonder how the 5000X line is actually selling at this price tag. No matter if it's a good price for its capabilities or not: company customers will stick to major brands at that ("invest" range) price tag and for hobby users it's typically above what one could justify for "now and then" use. I guess it would sell a bit better if the 350MHz version could be upgraded to 1GHz. Then some people might take the risk hoping it will get hacked to 1GHz.

It needs few good reviews and some time.. Price difference compared to RTM3000 or MSOX3000T is still two for one. At first people will buy one A brand and a few Siglents, until they get confident it works.. They are already doing this with Rigols .. And for general purpose 350 MHz is more than plenty..
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: Martin72 on April 08, 2019, 08:12:37 pm
On the batronix website there is one review about:

https://www.batronix.com/versand/oszilloskope/Siglent-SDS5034X.html#yoReviews (https://www.batronix.com/versand/oszilloskope/Siglent-SDS5034X.html#yoReviews)

( in german )
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: Aidanator7000 on April 09, 2019, 12:01:17 am
Here is some footage

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yG-uQI8ZK-o (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yG-uQI8ZK-o)
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: JPortici on April 09, 2019, 07:11:49 am
I wonder how the 5000X line is actually selling at this price tag. No matter if it's a good price for its capabilities or not: company customers will stick to major brands at that ("invest" range) price tag and for hobby users it's typically above what one could justify for "now and then" use. I guess it would sell a bit better if the 350MHz version could be upgraded to 1GHz. Then some people might take the risk hoping it will get hacked to 1GHz.

I am sure it's selling and it's selling because people at workplaces have tested it. All the features WORK and work as intended. I haven't managed to crash mine yet during normal use
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tv84 on April 29, 2019, 03:00:35 pm
A few teardown pics.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tv84 on April 29, 2019, 03:04:14 pm
pack 2
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tv84 on April 29, 2019, 03:05:46 pm
pack 3
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tv84 on April 29, 2019, 03:07:01 pm
pack 4
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tv84 on April 29, 2019, 03:08:04 pm
pack final
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on April 29, 2019, 04:08:19 pm
So hacking begins now ;) ?

Side note: I notice 5 (partly capacitive) trimmers in the frontend for each channel, even with a placement option for a 6th. Is this still state of the art? I faintly recall the MSO5000 doesn't have any trimmers at all and the calibration etc. is supposed to be stored in some NVRAM.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: dermeister on April 29, 2019, 04:30:36 pm
I'm thinking of buying this scope, can anyone of the owners chime in about how they like it so far? I'm particularly interested in UI responsiveness and if it is usable in its current state and not riddled with show stopping bugs.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tv84 on April 29, 2019, 04:32:25 pm
They have a SPI flash where the info about calibration, ADC config and license config is stored.

The Debug menu allows access to cal deletion, board temps, HW version, etc.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: thm_w on April 29, 2019, 08:43:05 pm
Seven relays on each channel, 500pc quantity they are about $2.40 So we are talking $67 in relays alone! No wonder its not cheap.

https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Omron-Electronics/G6K-2G-Y-DC5 (https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Omron-Electronics/G6K-2G-Y-DC5)
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tautech on April 29, 2019, 08:54:43 pm
Seven relays on each channel, 500pc quantity they are about $2.40 So we are talking $67 in relays alone!
10,000 or 100,000 quantities pricing ?

There are relays in other Siglent equipment.  ;)
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: nctnico on April 29, 2019, 08:56:15 pm
@tv84: are the BNCs bolted to the chassis or not?
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: JPortici on April 29, 2019, 09:01:43 pm
I'm thinking of buying this scope, can anyone of the owners chime in about how they like it so far? I'm particularly interested in UI responsiveness and if it is usable in its current state and not riddled with show stopping bugs.
UI is always responsive. The trace will take some time to update during high memory captures at low time/div, or when doing FFT at 2MPts at some time/div settings, but that's to be expected because it phisically takes some time to acquire the waveform.

Make sure you get the latest firmware (rf-loop has posted in the past a picture of the latest available release. i don't know the version that is shipped with units but mine came with an earlier version that lacked histograms,dvm and was prone to crash. I haven't been able to crash the scope a single time with the latest firmware)

To me trigger is solid, the functionality is there and most of the fixes i'd like to see are cosmetic like new touch screen actions.

I can make a small video if you want to see something in particular :)
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: JPortici on April 29, 2019, 09:03:33 pm
BNCs are not bolted. it may have something to do with the active probe interface..
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: Mr Nutts on April 29, 2019, 09:37:05 pm
BNCs are not bolted. it may have something to do with the active probe interface..

As far as I know my Agilent DSO8064 has bolted BNCs despite the active probe interface, they just put the board that has the interface contacts in front of the bolted connector :)

I think I'd rather see bolted connectors on such an expensive scope ;)
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tv84 on April 29, 2019, 09:42:31 pm
@tv84: are the BNCs bolted to the chassis or not?

"By your command!"
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: nctnico on April 29, 2019, 09:50:19 pm
Looks good! It may sound minor but since the BNC input connectors on an oscilloscope see a lot of abuse it is better the chassis takes the mechanical stress than the PCB.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: JPortici on April 29, 2019, 09:51:38 pm
Ah nice :D I haven't removed the front panel, i assumed that they weren't
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tautech on April 29, 2019, 10:04:40 pm
Ah nice :D I haven't removed the front panel, i assumed that they weren't
If they weren't it would have been a major departure from Siglent's normal chassis to PCB layout.

I think the industry has well learnt the lesson from the days of Tek TDS210/220 were it was common for the unsecured input BNC's to break off the PCB.  ::)
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tautech on April 29, 2019, 10:24:39 pm
They have a SPI flash where the info about calibration, ADC config and license config is stored.

The Debug menu allows access to cal deletion, board temps, HW version, etc.
Yours or one on loan ?  ;)
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tv84 on April 29, 2019, 10:31:50 pm
Yours or one on loan ?  ;)

Loan. But from what I saw, regarding the implementation side and not so much the operational side, getting one is a real possibility. ;)

I will wait for the operational experts to place their opinions (fanboys from all places  ;D ).
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tautech on May 11, 2019, 10:09:16 am
For anyone looking at these SDS5000X DSO's and the 1 GHz active probe there is a manual available now for the the SAP1000 probe:
http://old.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Documents/manual/SAP1000_UserManual_UM60010-E01A.pdf (http://old.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Documents/manual/SAP1000_UserManual_UM60010-E01A.pdf)
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on May 11, 2019, 12:47:42 pm
I wonder if it's a rebrand. If so: any idea of what?
Anyway, the PMK Tetris 1000/1500 (which R&S rebrands as HZO30) is around the same price with slightly better specs and better documentation about the technical specifications.
E.g. the SAP1000 manual just states a probe bandwidth, but no system bandwidth or even if the bandwidth is specified at -3dB.
I'd also expect a graph for the input impedance over frequency and for the input voltage/dynamic range over frequency.
Anyway, it's good to see that Siglent is willing and able to come up with active probes. I wonder if there will also be a high frequency differential probe. Currently, they seem to offer only high voltage differential probes (most likely rebrands).
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: Performa01 on May 11, 2019, 01:38:53 pm
Since I've got an engineering sample (= pre production prototype) of the SAP1000 I'd not expect it to be a rebrand.

According to my tests, the specification states the system bandwidth. I've measured >1.1GHz +2/-3dB - and that's been with a pre-production sample of the SDS5104X, which did not entirely meet the frequency response flatness specifications. As a result, the system bandwidth with final units of the SDS5100X (which got a frontend re-design) could be even better.

See my reply #90 here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/at-last-siglent_s-sds5054x-touchscreen/msg2165488/#msg2165488 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/at-last-siglent_s-sds5054x-touchscreen/msg2165488/#msg2165488)
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: JPortici on May 12, 2019, 09:47:07 am
I wanted to use the webserver via LAN, but i don't have a router in the room. Do i need a crossover cable to connect the PC and the scope?
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: Performa01 on May 12, 2019, 10:04:03 am
I wanted to use the webserver via LAN, but i don't have a router in the room. Do i need a crossover cable to connect the PC and the scope?
You shouldn't need one - modern network ports on a PC have auto-sensing and swap the lines if necessary.

You can't use the DHCP feature though (because without router there's usually no DHCP server), so you have to configure the ethernet settings manually.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tautech on May 12, 2019, 10:13:18 am
I wanted to use the webserver via LAN, but i don't have a router in the room. Do i need a crossover cable to connect the PC and the scope?
You shouldn't need one - modern network ports on a PC have auto-sensing and swap the lines if necessary.

You can't use the DHCP feature though (because without router there's usually no DHCP server), so you have to configure the ethernet settings manually.
Correct, connection is very possible but a bit of a PITA to get all the IP stuff set into the scope correctly.

Open a CMD window and 'ipconfig' the PC's settings. Mirror them into the scope and just +1 for the scopes IP. Then Save.
Should work fine.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: nctnico on May 12, 2019, 10:21:08 am
I wanted to use the webserver via LAN, but i don't have a router in the room. Do i need a crossover cable to connect the PC and the scope?
You shouldn't need one - modern network ports on a PC have auto-sensing and swap the lines if necessary.

You can't use the DHCP feature though (because without router there's usually no DHCP server), so you have to configure the ethernet settings manually.
Correct, connection is very possible but a bit of a PITA to get all the IP stuff set into the scope correctly.

Open a CMD window and 'ipconfig' the PC's settings. Mirror them into the scope and just +1 for the scopes IP. Then Save.
Should work fine.
That is very bad advice! If there is no DHCP server to manage the IP addresses then someone has made a plan manually. Better consult with that person before causing all kinds of weird network problems. A duplicate IP address leads to all kinds of odd behaviour in a network.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: JPortici on May 12, 2019, 12:12:30 pm
I see. Still, it worked and i was able to control the scope from the webserver :-+
Unfortunately my knowledge of netwroks is sub-zero so i can only say i'm glad this workaround works
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: 2N3055 on May 12, 2019, 02:20:57 pm
If you are just connecting scope and PC directly with cable you only have to make sure scope IP is different from PC's.. So PC's IP+1 is just fine.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: Martin72 on May 12, 2019, 07:21:43 pm
If I understand the manual right, it´s got a free definable and moveable measuring-gate (A, B, AB).
If it´s so, it will be very interesting for our testdepartement since we know, that lecroy doesn´t have this very useable feature anymore on their modern scopes.

Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tautech on May 12, 2019, 08:57:34 pm
I see. Still, it worked and i was able to control the scope from the webserver :-+
Unfortunately my knowledge of netwroks is sub-zero so i can only say i'm glad this workaround works
Great, yes I know it's a bit of a PITA but for a 'one off' it works just fine.
If you have to do it frequently grab a cheap little 4 port switch to have close to your PC and still have full your LAN and DHCP by just plugging into the switch.
They are so cheap these days the investment pays for itself very quickly with time saved.

I have in the past used a spare ADSL 4 port router but they can add another set of IP issues ................
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on May 12, 2019, 09:46:34 pm
If I understand the manual right, it´s got a free definable and moveable measuring-gate (A, B, AB).
If it´s so, it will be very interesting for our testdepartement since we know, that lecroy doesn´t have this very useable feature anymore on their modern scopes.
Hm. Even the lowish WS3000 features gates for measurements. The current 12bit HDO line has gates for sure, all the previous Wavesurfers and Waverunners I ever used in the last ten years had movable gates. On "my" 6zi at work you can drag the gate cursors with the touch screen.
For sure it's nice that the SDS5000 seems to have inherited the gate feature from LeCroy. AFAIK no HP/Agilent/Keysight scope I ever used had this feature and they usually measure from the screen buffer anyway.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: 2N3055 on May 12, 2019, 10:07:02 pm
If I understand the manual right, it´s got a free definable and moveable measuring-gate (A, B, AB).
If it´s so, it will be very interesting for our testdepartement since we know, that lecroy doesn´t have this very useable feature anymore on their modern scopes.
Hm. Even the lowish WS3000 features gates for measurements. The current 12bit HDO line has gates for sure, all the previous Wavesurfers and Waverunners I ever used in the last ten years had movable gates. On "my" 6zi at work you can drag the gate cursors with the touch screen.
For sure it's nice that the SDS5000 seems to have inherited the gate feature from LeCroy. AFAIK no HP/Agilent/Keysight scope I ever used had this feature and they usually measure from the screen buffer anyway.

Keysight 3000T measures from whole screen width, from a zoomed portion, or gated between cursors..
And not from screen buffer, but from a measurement buffer that is decimated and some 64k in length. So not full data (which is a shame), but in practice good enough.
Same with 64k for FFT.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: JPortici on May 13, 2019, 05:56:27 am
Yes, there is gated measurement and yes it works.
I suggest you use it with long acquisitions, because measurements and math trace are calculated on full memory buffer and there can be significant blind time between acquisitions with all measurements on. altough i don't think i ever used measure-all in my life for anything other than checking it out

The FFT instead doesn't have this problem.. 512k-2Mpts FFT will take 100s of ms to be computed but it won't add noticeable blind time.. My guess is that FFT is done in the FPGA while the measurements are all on the CPU side

If there is one thing i miss from the rigol is the cursors that track measurements..
And there are some measurements missing i forgot to ask if/when they wil be added, basically slew rate
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: Rerouter on May 13, 2019, 07:04:44 am
There is a tracking cursor mode. But would need a better description of how you used it to know if its suitable
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: JPortici on May 13, 2019, 07:15:43 am
tektronix style, you move X and Y is tracking the waveform
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: 2N3055 on May 13, 2019, 07:49:04 am
tektronix style, you move X and Y is tracking the waveform
Same on Keysight 3000T series. In manual mode you have 2 horizontal and 2 vertical independent cursors. In Track mode, you get 2 horizontal/vertical cursor pairs that track waveform.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: Performa01 on May 13, 2019, 09:11:33 am
If there is one thing i miss from the rigol is the cursors that track measurements..
And there are some measurements missing i forgot to ask if/when they wil be added, basically slew rate
Cursor display for automatic measurements will be added, the same is true for a number of additional measurements, including slew rate.

Math will see some major additions and improvements and we will also get a comprehensive filter package.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: Rerouter on May 13, 2019, 09:15:37 am
On the SDS1104X-E the cursors track on Y when you move the X, I assume the same functionality exists on the 5000 series, or at minimum will be easy to port,
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: Martin72 on May 13, 2019, 05:30:42 pm
Hm. Even the lowish WS3000 features gates for measurements.

Maybe I was misunderstood, yes it does it like every newer lecroy does it.
But: The tracking-function was gone, like older waverunner got it.
Even the 2004 WS 422 don´t have it anymore:

(https://s18.directupload.net/images/190513/temp/zi3jbnk8.png) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5451/zi3jbnk8_png.htm)

You can adjust start div. and stop div., displayed by the white lines and it will measure inbetween, but when you will examine another part of the signal, you´ll have to adjust it again to this part of the display.
With the trackfunction you could define a gate, which could be moved all over the screen (very useful for examining loadsteps):

(https://s16.directupload.net/images/190425/temp/4unwionv.jpg) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5433/4unwionv_jpg.htm)

This function does not exist anymore, even not on the expensive models ( asked lecroy for this).
Therefore, the siglent 5000 would be a very interesting candidate for our testdepartement.
Btw, this is a known ( and promised to be fixed ) bug of the ws3000(Z) series:

(https://s18.directupload.net/images/190513/temp/cyv2zwqh.jpg) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5451/cyv2zwqh_jpg.htm)

No white gate-lines visible….
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on May 13, 2019, 07:09:28 pm
Hm, you mean the gating cursors could be moved together in the past? I know I can move the measurements cursors together on Windows based Waverunners/Wavesurfers but for the gating cursors, you're probably right that this isn't possible (anymore). Never really missed it to be honest, but yeah, looks like the SDS5000X can do this (judging from the menu in the user manual).
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: Martin72 on May 13, 2019, 07:40:27 pm
Quote
Hm, you mean the gating cursors could be moved together in the past?

Yes, on Waverunner LT models (also 9XXX models), you could choose between tracking/non tracking and as I saw the A,B AB movement possibility in the SDS5000 usermanual, I think, this will be the same.

Quote
Never really missed it to be honest

Maybe this was/is the reason, lecroy didn´t implement it anymore in the newer models and we are the only ones who use it.

It´s quiet nice for the above mentioned loadstep-measuring ( Loadstep of a 400Hz sinewave output, first 3 cycles rms-value - you define a 2.5ms gate and measure the three cycles after loadstep).

I think the SDS5034X have a better overall performance than the ws3000z, also some decoding functions are free implemented - and it costs nearly the half, comparing to the WS3034Z.
Could be a good deal.
Edit:
Rigol MSO5074 have it too:

(https://s18.directupload.net/images/190513/temp/l4iaa8xb.png) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5451/l4iaa8xb_png.htm)
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: Mr Nutts on May 13, 2019, 09:03:32 pm
Even the 2004 WS 422 don´t have it anymore

From what I understand the WS400 was a much simpler scope than any Waveruner (or even the later Wavesurfers) which lacked most of the functionality available in other Lecroy scopes ;)

I think WS400s were made by Iwatsu and ran a special cut-down version of the software (X-Stream?) while other Lecroy Windows scopes all ran the same (full) software. WS400 software did also see only a few updates back then and could not be updated with normal X-Stream releases :(
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: Martin72 on May 13, 2019, 09:17:11 pm
Yep, wavesurfer are always the "light version" of the waverunners, in every case.

Quote
X-Stream?

Yes again.

Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: Mr Nutts on May 13, 2019, 09:41:24 pm
Yep, wavesurfer are always the "light version" of the waverunners, in every case.

That's true but not what I meant. What I was saying is that to my knowledge the WS400 is different from any other Lecroy X-Stream scope including later Wavesurfers. The WS400 was particularly simple unlike any other X-Stream scope, so it's not surprising it lacks most of the functionality in the LT. But a lot of that functionality is found in the successor model which I believe is Wavesurfer Xs ;)
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: Martin72 on May 14, 2019, 07:28:59 pm
Ah ok, nevertheless, the tracking gate function was gone with the elder Waverunner models and wasn´t implemented anymore.
Every brand does have it today, only lecroy not.
So I´ll suggest the siglent to buy for our testfield.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: Performa01 on May 17, 2019, 09:58:24 pm
Siglent scopes have always supported gated measurements and there is a mode to position the measurement gate without altering the gate width (Gate A-B):

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/at-last-siglent_s-sds5054x-touchscreen/?action=dlattach;attach=739149;image)
SDS5104X_Gate_Ampl

It should be noted that Siglent offers dedicated gate cursors, whereas the regular cursors are still available for manual measurements:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/at-last-siglent_s-sds5054x-touchscreen/?action=dlattach;attach=739155;image)
SDS5104X_V_Cursor_XY_Track_M1

The screenshot above shows the M1 display mode with a compact box showing all the measurement results from the (tracking in this example) cursor pair, like we’re used to it from other Siglent scopes. On the SDS5000X, this box is movable though, hence can be positioned freely.

Alternatively, we also get the M2 display mode, where the measurement results are displayed next to the cursors:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/at-last-siglent_s-sds5054x-touchscreen/?action=dlattach;attach=739161;image)
SDS5104X_V_Cursor_XY_Track_M2
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: jemangedeslolos on May 18, 2019, 07:26:14 am
Hello everyone,

Im looking to move on a more advanced scope ( I have a SDS2204x ).
There is some competitor at this price range and it seems that R&S will introduce promotion for their RTB and RTM series....
The price difference will be not that high between a full loaded SDS5000x and a R&S scope so it will be difficult to choose even if there are high end feature on the Siglent.
Do you know if the analog frontend is different between the 350Mhz and the 1Ghz model ?
It seems that yan can only upgrade to 500Mhz from the 350Mhz version  ?

Thank you
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on May 18, 2019, 10:38:53 am
At least you can only update the 500MHz model to 1GHz. So this could mean that the 350MHz version has a different frontend than the 500MHz and 1Ghz models.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tv84 on May 18, 2019, 10:53:14 am
Anyone has a 350MHz version?
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: Performa01 on May 19, 2019, 08:01:42 am
Do you know if the analog frontend is different between the 350Mhz and the 1Ghz model ?
It seems that yan can only upgrade to 500Mhz from the 350Mhz version  ?
The 350MHz model has a different (500MHz) frontend. It can be upgraded to 500MHz by software, but such an upgraded scope is still not identical to the genuine 500MHz model.

The 500MHz model has the higher end (1GHz) frontend and if upgraded to 1GHz there will be no difference to the genuine 1GHz model.

Anyone has a 350MHz version?
I think member JPortici has got one.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: jemangedeslolos on May 19, 2019, 09:14:14 am
Hello Performa01,

Thank you for the info. There is a huge gap between the 350Mhz price and the 500 Mhz  :-X

Around 5000€, there will be some competitor like R&S promo....It will be difficult to choose  |O
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on May 19, 2019, 10:16:32 am
Not really. Letting aside that the 500MHz version is around 6k€ with VAT, there is not much in this price range from competitors. The 4ch RTM3000 with 500MHz is around 12k€ (with VAT, 10k€ without). Also the promotion will be only for all options (1GHz MSO with all decoders and AWG). My guess is that it will will reduced from 20k€ to 12k€-14k€ [Edit: actually 10.2k€ with VAT, 8.6k€ without]. So not really the 5k€ range.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: 2N3055 on May 19, 2019, 10:27:14 am
Hello Performa01,

Thank you for the info. There is a huge gap between the 350Mhz price and the 500 Mhz  :-X

Around 5000€, there will be some competitor like R&S promo....It will be difficult to choose  |O

No it won't. Promo is nice for fully loaded 350 MHz RTB2000 at 3200 € that is a nice scope but has many limitations compared to SDS50000X.

One that SDS50000X should be compared to is RTM3000K, but on that one promo is only for a fully loaded 1GHz one for 8600€.
Which is a good deal actually if you need 1GHz. Despite fact that on RTM3000K they don't even have search on basic protocols and segments so large memory they are promoting so much is pretty much useless...

RTM3000 with basic protocols (optional) and 500 MHz  bandwidth will set you back 8100€ +2500 € for app bundle (+VAT).
Which is also part of the good news from R&S. Namely, while you can get 1GHz for what is not a bad price in their new promotion, in the same new promotion app bundle for RTM3000 is back to full price of 2500€ + VAT.
So their new promotion makes all of the scopes with lower bandwidth more expensive if you want options. Which you do, because NOTHING worth having is built in. NO segmented memory (which you really want and is standard with every single manufacturer except them), NO very nice spectrum display mode (which would be nice advantage to other scopes), no basic protocols (SPI, I2C and UART trigger and decoding is as common as edge trigger and rise time measurement nowadays). etc etc..

So if you want pretty advanced 500MHz scope, that will get even better in coming months with all the upgrades Siglent is planning, than SDS5000X has no competition whatsoever in current R&S product line. And with Rigol upcoming 1GHz scope, and necessary price adjustments because Siglent is getting ahead, it is going to get pretty interesting pretty soon.
That is exact reason why R&S is doing promotions so they can attract customers in that segment so they don't get any ideas with Siglent and Rigol.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: nctnico on May 19, 2019, 10:36:01 am
On the R&S RTM3000 the 'protocol' item in the search menu is greyed out (with version 1.4) so that is probably something R&S is still working on.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: 2N3055 on May 19, 2019, 11:14:49 am
On the R&S RTM3000 the 'protocol' item in the search menu is greyed out (with version 1.4) so that is probably something R&S is still working on.

And I asked and they said that officially that's not something they gonna promise.
It's been more than a year since introduction.
That is basic functionality. Sorry.

But hey it's so cool it has kindergarten crayon style finger painting... That is more important than search  :palm:

So I gave up and bought Keysight 3000T.

If SDS5000X was available then I would have taken it into consideration, over RTM3000.

it is simple. 350MHz scope is pretty much enough for 99% of time. For the price of 100 MHz RTM3004 with no options whatsoever, you can get 350MHz MSO with segments, huge memory, basic protocols, histograms, basically low cost LeCroy..
To me, for a general purpose mainstream scope, choice is obvious.

If you need more than that you need to go up the food chain anyway..

Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: nctnico on May 19, 2019, 12:41:19 pm
Either way it would be nice to put the Siglent SDS5000 and the R&S RTM3000 head to head once the  firmware for the SDS5000 reaches version 1.x .
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: Martin72 on May 19, 2019, 08:49:46 pm
Quote
it is simple. 350MHz scope is pretty much enough for 99% of time. For the price of 100 MHz RTM3004 with no options whatsoever, you can get 350MHz MSO with segments, huge memory, basic protocols, histograms, basically low cost LeCroy..
To me, for a general purpose mainstream scope, choice is obvious.

For me too, for our departement spoken.
It seems that the siglent 350Mhz model is more than enough to fullfil our daily needs, they also offers pretty good current-clamps which are, surprise surprise, equal to the ones Lecroy offers ( and Rigol by the way).
I would also recommend a Rigol MSO5000 when it would be clear, that all Bugs would be fixed in the near future - But this is not clear and additional to this, a big point was open:
What about the support.....
Not only Rigol concerning, also Siglent.
From Lecroy I am used to become a quick help what problems concerning.
I´ve told my departement manager about the siglent SDS5000 series and he replied, well let us invite a representative to show the benefits of an SDS 5000 - And me : ehhhh…... ;)
This seperate the pro´s from the amateurs, when siglent is seriously interesting to be a player in the family of pro-outfitter, they must be more present in this cases than actual.

Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: rf-loop on May 19, 2019, 09:11:03 pm
Either way it would be nice to put the Siglent SDS5000 and the R&S RTM3000 head to head once the  firmware for the SDS5000 reaches version 1.x .

2.x

(you perhaps know this "De ja vu")
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: nctnico on May 19, 2019, 09:58:07 pm
Either way it would be nice to put the Siglent SDS5000 and the R&S RTM3000 head to head once the  firmware for the SDS5000 reaches version 1.x .

2.x

(you perhaps know this "De ja vu")
According to my sources the SDS5000 firmware is currently at version 0.8-ish.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: Performa01 on May 19, 2019, 10:05:54 pm
Hello Performa01,

Thank you for the info. There is a huge gap between the 350Mhz price and the 500 Mhz  :-X

Around 5000€, there will be some competitor like R&S promo....It will be difficult to choose  |O

When comparing the SDS5000X to a competing product, you should compare specifications and have a clear idea what is really important for you. If you think you need 10bit, then the R&S is the only option quite obviously. But let me express my honest opinion on this: 8bit is enough for the majority of tasks and should you ever need high resolution in a scope, chances are that 10bit won't cut it either. You'd want at least 12 bit, but then we're talking about LeCroy HDO series. If you don't need high bandwidth, then Picoscope 4000/5000 series could serve as a complement for the special tasks where you really need high physical resolution (that's the way how I personally handle it).

In any case you should also be aware that:

•   The SDS5000X comes as a fairly complete package; none of the essential features are optional (except for the digital channels, but then not everyone needs them, so it's okay to be an option).
•   If you actually need more than what comes as standard, options are quite reasonabl priced on the SDS5000X IMHO.
•   The SDS5000X series is far from feature complete yet. Siglent’s to-do list is much longer than what you’d possibly imagine. Some of these topics will be options, like additional decoders or analysis packages, but the majority will just improve/complement the standard functionality.

One that SDS50000X should be compared to is RTM3000K, but on that one promo is only for a fully loaded 1GHz one for 8600€.
Which is a good deal actually if you need 1GHz. Despite fact that on RTM3000K they don't even have search on basic protocols and segments so large memory they are promoting so much is pretty much useless...
I should point out that the SDS5000X cannot do a search for serial triggers right now. But I have requested this quite some time ago and it's on Siglent's to-do list.

Search across segments on the other hand – yet another request from me – has already been implemented in the latest firmware. Search is also reasonably fast, even with full 250MPts memory (<400ms per search) as I think I was able to demonstrate in an earlier post.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: Performa01 on May 20, 2019, 09:14:39 am
What about the support.....
Not only Rigol concerning, also Siglent.
From Lecroy I am used to become a quick help what problems concerning.
I´ve told my departement manager about the siglent SDS5000 series and he replied, well let us invite a representative to show the benefits of an SDS 5000 - And me : ehhhh…... ;)
This seperate the pro´s from the amateurs, when siglent is seriously interesting to be a player in the family of pro-outfitter, they must be more present in this cases than actual.
Since there is an increasing offer on midrange gear from Siglent, that's a valid request. At least in Europe I know about solid plans to improve product presentation/service to customers – despite the fact that Siglent is a rather small company with limited human resources. Because of that and the fact that Siglent don’t sell any gear directly, I guess this will most likely end up in tight partnerships with selected (competent and trustworthy) distributors.

Apart from that, you have two options:

1.)   You can wait until LeCroy includes the SDS5000X into their "Teledyne Test Tools" series. You'll pay a premium, but you'll get the support you're used to.

2.)   Right now you can just contact Siglent Europe headquarter, either via the contact form on their web page  https://www.siglenteu.com/contact-us/ (https://www.siglenteu.com/contact-us/) or just send an email to info-eu@siglent.com (you can use German language!) and they will arrange something.

Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on May 20, 2019, 10:15:50 am
1.)   You can wait until LeCroy includes the SDS5000X into their "Teledyne Test Tools" series. You'll pay a premium, but you'll get the support you're used to.
I somewhat doubt this will ever happen. LeCroy's current strategy seems to be to relabel only models "below" the WS3000Z (and yes, I know, the WS3000Z is the result of a cooperation with Siglent, but it's not a rebrand). But letting aside the reduced bandwidth in the low voltage ranges and a slightly lower specified update rate, the SDS5000X has better specs than a WS3000Z in important aspects like sample rate and memory depth. So it will be hard to place the SD5000X as low cost option below the WS3000X and placing it next to the WS3000X or even slightly above doesn't seem to make much sense from LeCroy's perspective. At least it would be hard to explain why someone should pay much more for the WS3000X. I.e. the SDS5034X with VAT costs ~3.4k€ while the WaveSurfer 3034Z with VAT costs ~7.9k€, so even if LeCroy would double the price for the SDS5034X rebrand and remove the decoders, it would still be cheaper than the WS3034Z.

Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: EEVblog on May 21, 2019, 04:38:35 am
Test post due to consistent 500 error.  :-//
Reported for admins to investigate.

No other reports.
Testing...
EDIT: Hmm, a small PNG (different to below) took ages to load and then failed.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on May 21, 2019, 10:00:20 am
For the record: Dave uses his SDS5104X in the "sinc" video ... and seems to have stumbled over a bug in this short demonstration.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tv84 on May 21, 2019, 10:08:46 am
According to my sources the SDS5000 firmware is currently at version 0.8-ish.

The one I looked into had FW v4.6.0.8.0R1B5.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on May 21, 2019, 10:10:38 am
Looked into? Already gave it back? No "investigation" going on?
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: nctnico on May 21, 2019, 10:13:19 am
According to my sources the SDS5000 firmware is currently at version 0.8-ish.

The one I looked into had FW v4.6.0.8.0R1B5.
Then it is a) weird people talk about .8-ish and b) not in Beta stage like I assumed? Or does B5 indicate it is a Beta version?
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tv84 on May 21, 2019, 10:16:59 am
Looked into? Already gave it back? No "investigation" going on?

Yep. "Investigation" ended successfully.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: JPortici on May 21, 2019, 10:18:26 am
I'll check tonight (name of the firmware file doesn't correspond 1 to 1 with what's written on the system info page)
but it should be this one http://old.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Firmware&Software/firmware/SDS5000X_0.8.0R1B5_EN.zip (http://old.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Firmware&Software/firmware/SDS5000X_0.8.0R1B5_EN.zip)
(from http://siglent.com/ENs/gjjrj.aspx?id=15 (http://siglent.com/ENs/gjjrj.aspx?id=15))
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: 2N3055 on May 21, 2019, 10:24:01 am
According to my sources the SDS5000 firmware is currently at version 0.8-ish.

The one I looked into had FW v4.6.0.8.0R1B5.
Then it is a) weird people talk about .8-ish and b) not in Beta stage like I assumed? Or does B5 indicate it is a Beta version?

I believe member RF-loop  explained some time ago that full string consists of boot loader part (4.6. part) and software ver part( 0.8.0R1B5.)
Boot loader part would be partially connected with mainboard hardware revision probably....
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tv84 on May 21, 2019, 10:24:17 am
According to my sources the SDS5000 firmware is currently at version 0.8-ish.

The one I looked into had FW v4.6.0.8.0R1B5.
Then it is a) weird people talk about .8-ish and b) not in Beta stage like I assumed? Or does B5 indicate it is a Beta version?

Nico,

Don't know the answer...

What I saw was:

 <Manufacturer>SIGLENT TECHNOLOGIES</Manufacturer>
 <Model>SDS5104X</Model>
 <SerialNumber>SDS5X..........</SerialNumber>
 <FirmwareRevision>4.6.0.8.0R1B5</FirmwareRevision>
 <ManufacturerDescription>SDS5X............</ManufacturerDescription>
 <HomepageURL>http://www.Siglent.com (http://www.Siglent.com)</HomepageURL>
 <DriverURL>http://www.Siglent.com (http://www.Siglent.com)</DriverURL>
 <UserDescription>SIGLENT TECHNOLOGIES SMU</UserDescription>
 <IdentificationURL>http://169.254.32.14/lxi/identification (http://169.254.32.14/lxi/identification)</IdentificationURL>
 <Interface xsi:type="NetworkInformation" InterfaceType="LXI" IPType="IPv4" InterfaceName="et0">
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: JPortici on May 21, 2019, 11:00:17 am
I believe member RF-loop  explained some time ago that full string consists of boot loader part (4.6. part) and software ver part( 0.8.0R1B5.)
Boot loader part would be partially connected with mainboard hardware revision probably....


makes sense, at some point they have changed the first number on the 1000X-E, the actual firmware was the same
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tautech on May 21, 2019, 11:45:10 am
Very first impressions before this SDS5034X must go to my customer.  :(

Big display, the same physical size as those used for SSA and SVA models.
Super quiet fan that make some little noise when booting but slows to nearly inaudible before boot has finished.
SDS5034X (350 MHz) comes with 10x auto-sense SP3050A 500 MHz probes.
They have 1x LF and 2x HF compensation adjustments in the BNC box and with the normal accessories like a spare needle tip, probe to BNC adapter and ground spring.
https://siglentna-qwavztc8hvq2w.stackpathdns.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/SP3025A_3050A_Users_Guide.pdf (https://siglentna-qwavztc8hvq2w.stackpathdns.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/SP3025A_3050A_Users_Guide.pdf)

The scope is a joy and simple to use, front panel layout is good and intuitive.
Knobs are rubber coated like we've seen in SDS2000X models.
Touch display works just fine even through the factory screen protector tear-off and can be toggled ON or OFF.
Rear VGA ports to an external monitor perfectly with zero visible latency.
The current factory firmware is 0.8.2R1 The full string from the webserver info is: 4.6.0.8.2R1
SN# indication: SDS5XDAD2R0***

Some meaningless play screenshots.
Ch4 1 MHz 1V p-p from SDG1032X for probe HF adjustments*. (*SDG1032X risetime marginal)
Connection via BNC adapter to SP3050A 10x probe.

Ch1 500 MHz 0dBm from SSG3021X
Connection: Siglent 6 GHz rated N-N cable with unknown N-BNC adapter.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/at-last-siglent_s-sds5054x-touchscreen/?action=dlattach;attach=743064)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/at-last-siglent_s-sds5054x-touchscreen/?action=dlattach;attach=743070)


One thing is quite an improvement on other/older Siglent models is the Zoom display proportioning.
This shot shows a much improved ratio of the un-zoomed and zoomed working area.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/at-last-siglent_s-sds5054x-touchscreen/?action=dlattach;attach=743076)

Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: BillB on May 21, 2019, 12:56:10 pm
I once munged-up a thread on this board by posting a png that was really a bmp or something like that.  Ensure that the uploaded images aren't corrupt/improper format.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tv84 on May 21, 2019, 01:37:07 pm
It seems tautech did a DoS attack to the thread...  ;D
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: gnif on May 21, 2019, 02:49:24 pm
Quite simply the image you are attempting to attach is broken/invalid and the forum is crashing out trying to load it to generate a thumbnail.

Code: [Select]
geoff@aeryn:~/Downloads# pngcheck a.png
a.png  CRC error in chunk IDAT (computed dade6bff, expected 00000000)
ERROR: a.png

Please do not try to attach this image again, it is clearly corrupted.

Attached a test PNG image to this post to show that attachments are working fine.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: JPortici on May 21, 2019, 03:06:53 pm
* I've had issues with corrupted PNGs generated by the scope saved to USB *
but it's not an issue with the scope per se.
Basically, wait a few more seconds before ejecting, or you'll have corrupted files / corrupted filesystem. Windows can render the image (it may show noise on corrupted areas) but other systems are not very happy..
I happens quite a lot with me, linux and > 8GB pen drives.
I've suggested they add an unmount button.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: JPortici on May 21, 2019, 03:08:36 pm
Quite simply the image you are attempting to attach is broken/invalid and the forum is crashing out trying to load it to generate a thumbnail.

Code: [Select]
geoff@aeryn:~/Downloads# pngcheck a.png
a.png  CRC error in chunk IDAT (computed dade6bff, expected 00000000)
ERROR: a.png

Please do not try to attach this image again, it is clearly corrupted.

Attached a test PNG image to this post to show that attachments are working fine.
agh, so close to deadbeef
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tv84 on May 21, 2019, 03:09:45 pm
Yep, the test went OK.

Probably they aren't doing the sync (flush) command after save and the last PNG becomes incomplete.

If the USB standard was correctly implemented a USB removable drive doesn't require an explicit unmount from the user.

I bet this is one of the consequences of the way the USB disks can be used in this equipment...  ::)
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on May 21, 2019, 03:13:09 pm
Yeah, could be a write cache enabled. Note that even Win10 now disabled the write cache for USB devices by default to avoid problems like that.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: nctnico on May 21, 2019, 03:59:54 pm
Quite simply the image you are attempting to attach is broken/invalid and the forum is crashing out trying to load it to generate a thumbnail.
Code: [Select]
geoff@aeryn:~/Downloads# pngcheck a.png
a.png  CRC error in chunk IDAT (computed dade6bff, expected 00000000)
ERROR: a.png
I guess that is another SDS5000 firmware bug  >:D
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: jemangedeslolos on May 21, 2019, 05:19:16 pm
Thank you Performa01 and 2N3055.
I was a bit overexcited by the R&S promotion.

Im still young and I still make unreasonable choices.
R&S is for me like Ferrari....you know, one day maybe ?!

But on paper there is no competition between SDS5000X and RTB2000.
The RTM3000 is out of my budget.

I have a SDS2204X and im pretty happy with it but there is still few bugs I had to report te Siglent.
The SDS5000X has everything I need ( or everything the SDS2000X miss ? ), 350Mhz is enough for me 95% of the time but 500Mhz will be a nice feature.
It is not a bad idea from Siglent to have two different hardware and purpore a very capable scope a low cost.

If Siglent introduce a 25-30% discount like it is for the SDS2000x currently, I will buy one right know !
Nobody wants to buy my SDS2204X, it seems that it is not easy to sell an oscilloscope like this one  :-\

I think I have to take a subscription to the gear acquisition syndrome thread  :palm:
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: JPortici on May 21, 2019, 06:07:10 pm
Yep, the test went OK.

Probably they aren't doing the sync (flush) command after save and the last PNG becomes incomplete.

If the USB standard was correctly implemented a USB removable drive doesn't require an explicit unmount from the user.

I bet this is one of the consequences of the way the USB disks can be used in this equipment...  ::)

I don't know how things work but I think the flush is performed at time intervals, because a few more seconds and you can't get the bug, period. A < 8 GB drive and you can't get the bug, period (or maybe the flush is performed sooner so you don't have the chance to encounter it?)
In any case, i have to dig out the emails but IIRC they were pointing the finger at the linux side of things and i believe them.
i never, ever, ever ever had this issue with my mac or windows machines, only with linux machines, computers or embedded platforms.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: 2N3055 on May 21, 2019, 06:36:22 pm
On that topic:

https://superuser.com/questions/646232/do-usb-memory-sticks-have-controller-and-disk-cache-on-board

Like Jportici said, it would be nice to have remove (unmount) function.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: nctnico on May 21, 2019, 06:42:07 pm
I'd expect that a file is written when the notification on the screen of a piece of test equipment dissapears. Perhaps Siglent should disable write caching on removable media if that isn't the case.

@Jportici: I have had my fair share of Windows problems with USB sticks as well if I don't 'eject' them first. It depends on some setting in Windows and it isn't a given it is set correctly for removable media.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tv84 on May 21, 2019, 08:00:20 pm
So, it's not an easy question but Siglent has a bug/lack of feature.

I saw one of tautech .PNGs and the tail of the file was not missing. It's was there but it was all 00s. This is a different thing from being truncated. But it could have been added when the file pen was re-inserted back in the PC...

JPortici, I don't recall people reporting this problem in the SDS X-E

2 things are certain:

- Siglent must address this theme
- Dave / other admins must protect the forum servers against this .PNG "bug" since it can be used to attack the forum's security.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tv84 on May 21, 2019, 09:18:23 pm
I believe member RF-loop  explained some time ago that full string consists of boot loader part (4.6. part) and software ver part( 0.8.0R1B5.)
Boot loader part would be partially connected with mainboard hardware revision probably....

I've rechecked in System Status. The FW version format is like this:

Uboot-OS Version: 4.6
Software Version: 0.8.0R1B5
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tautech on May 21, 2019, 09:24:44 pm
On this .png issue, yes maybe I did not allow enough time for the scope to finish writing to the stick and in this case it was a stick without 'busy' LED indication that I much rather prefer.
So today there will be experiments to find the cause of this bad inconvenience to the forum and it might just be to use another USB stick.
Thanks to all that have helped.  :clap:

I believe member RF-loop  explained some time ago that full string consists of boot loader part (4.6. part) and software ver part( 0.8.0R1B5.)
Boot loader part would be partially connected with mainboard hardware revision probably....

I've rechecked in System Status. The FW version format is like this:

Uboot-OS Version: 4.6
Software Version: 0.8.0R1B5

This scope I have has later SW and a reply from Dave in another thread confirms the SDS5104X he has also has this newer version.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tautech on May 21, 2019, 10:44:46 pm
On this .png issue, yes maybe I did not allow enough time for the scope to finish writing to the stick and in this case it was a stick without 'busy' LED indication that I much rather prefer.
So today there will be experiments to find the cause of this bad inconvenience to the forum and it might just be to use another USB stick.
Thanks to all that have helped.  :clap:
Previous post is now repaired and with new png screenshots.  :phew:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/at-last-siglent_s-sds5054x-touchscreen/msg2426481/#msg2426481 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/at-last-siglent_s-sds5054x-touchscreen/msg2426481/#msg2426481)
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tautech on May 21, 2019, 11:52:55 pm
More checks.....
Noise floor
50 Ohm BNC terminator connected.
Full mem depth selected.
Various timebase and BW settings @ 500uV/div sensitivity
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on May 21, 2019, 11:59:25 pm
Is it correct to assume that the bandwidth limit can't be deactivated for <= 2.45 mV/div (for 500MHz and 1GHz models)?
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tautech on May 22, 2019, 01:19:57 am
Is it correct to assume that the bandwidth limit can't be deactivated for <= 2.45 mV/div (for 500MHz and 1GHz models)?
We can only refer to the ** in P8 of the datasheet where it's specified for all models.
https://www.siglenteu.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2019/01/SDS5000X_Datasheet_DS0105X_E01D.pdf (https://www.siglenteu.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2019/01/SDS5000X_Datasheet_DS0105X_E01D.pdf)

However there would seem to be no automatic indication of this should you study the screenshots above.
Only B or b are indicated in the channel tab if either one of the BW limits are manually selected despite the screenshots being taken at the max sensitivity of 500uV/div.

So yes, if auto BW limiting is used automatically at higher sensitives there must indeed be BW limit indicators for the operator.
Reported to Siglent for clarification.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tautech on May 22, 2019, 08:54:06 am
A little look a simple decoding with current firmware.

I2C  STB-3 source

List default start position is the first packet decoded rather than the first after the trigger.
This is evident with reference to the timestamp.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/at-last-siglent_s-sds5054x-touchscreen/?action=dlattach;attach=743406)

The new SDS5000X display Zoom proportioning allows for better visibility of signal fidelity while still providing Decode results without overlaying the list over waveform information.
Here the list is 100 packets where mid-list #50 is first after the trigger as again is evident from the timestamp.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/at-last-siglent_s-sds5054x-touchscreen/?action=dlattach;attach=743412)
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on May 22, 2019, 09:25:58 am
We can only refer to the ** in P8 of the datasheet where it's specified for all models.
But the 350MHz model has just one asterisk which says the 200MHz limit kicks in <= 1mV/div. So ironically, the 350MHz model seems to have a higher bandwidth in the 2mV/div range than the two higher BW models. Actually this is another indication that the 350MHz model has a different frontend.
Side note: the data sheet differentiates between "setting range" starting at 500µV/div and "specified range" starting at 1mV/div. This sounds as if the 500µV/div range might not fulfill other specifications as well.

So yes, if auto BW limiting is used automatically at higher sensitives there must indeed be BW limit indicators for the operator.
Best solution would be of course to remove the problem that makes this limitation necessary. I.e. one way to look at this is that the scope's electronics create noise in the frequency range > 200MHz which is of a magnitude that it would be clearly seen in these low voltage ranges. What really puzzles me is that the WS3000(Z) doesn't seem to have this limitation (e.g. 1GHz bandwidth specified down to 1mV/div). Actually even the SDS3000X datasheet doesn't seem to mention anything like this but then again, I could only find Chinese datasheets which leave some room for interpretation without appropriate language skills.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tautech on May 22, 2019, 10:04:42 am
We can only refer to the ** in P8 of the datasheet where it's specified for all models.
But the 350MHz model has just one asterisk which says the 200MHz limit kicks in <= 1mV/div. So ironically, the 350MHz model seems to have a higher bandwidth in the 2mV/div range than the two higher BW models. Actually this is another indication that the 350MHz model has a different frontend.
Possibly IDN.
However what I do know is the datasheet is revision D however I'm unaware of the revision timelines and how they might apply to latest production models.

Quote
Side note: the data sheet differentiates between "setting range" starting at 500µV/div and "specified range" starting at 1mV/div. This sounds as if the 500µV/div range might not fulfill other specifications as well.
Specified range is the Fine V/div adjustment and something I've not looked at in the 500uV/div range.
Seems like an unusual use case to need fine adjustment in the 500uV/div range.
So yes, if auto BW limiting is used automatically at higher sensitives there must indeed be BW limit indicators for the operator.
Best solution would be of course to remove the problem that makes this limitation necessary. I.e. one way to look at this is that the scope's electronics create noise in the frequency range > 200MHz which is of a magnitude that it would be clearly seen in these low voltage ranges. What really puzzles me is that the WS3000(Z) doesn't seem to have this limitation (e.g. 1GHz bandwidth specified down to 1mV/div). Actually even the SDS3000X datasheet doesn't seem to mention anything like this but then again, I could only find Chinese datasheets which leave some room for interpretation without appropriate language skills.
And yet as I have mentioned, the datasheet specifies automatic BW limiting for low V/div ranges yet there is no visual scope notification that this is happening unlike any older DSO I have ever seen.
I see this datasheet limitation as correctly informing the prospective buyer and yet in operation of the DSO there is NO clue BW limiting is occurring.
If we take this nugget of display information omission and overlay it onto WS/SDS3000/X/Z information and operator warnings or not, there is no wonder there is confusion as to which model does what wrt auto BW limiting.

As a user all I care about is the DSO must inform me if it has to go into another mode when I change any settings.....I need to be in charge.....not the DSO !
Unless the proper information is given to the operator via the display how can he/she make correct usage decisions ?

Siglent, are you listening ?
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: 2N3055 on May 22, 2019, 11:06:27 am
There are many scopes that have variable bandwidth specifications on various input sensitivity.
For instance Tektronix MDO3000 and MDO4000 series have several different specs in several ranges, and different from 50 Ohm and 1 MOhm..

I doubt it is bandwidth limiting (deliberate). It is more likely that front end amplifiers have finite gain bandwidth product, and when they start pushing certain gain bandwidth runs out....

I personally don't mind this, 500uV/div is picking up so much crap from environment that you usually enable some sort of bandwidth limiting anyways.

That being said, it would be a nice thing if scope would mention it somewhere on the screen, just because it is nice as a reminder.
Not that you are not required to know scope specs in detail to be able to use it properly.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: nctnico on May 22, 2019, 11:49:11 am
I personally don't mind this, 500uV/div is picking up so much crap from environment that you usually enable some sort of bandwidth limiting anyways.
It can be a problem. Many HF probes have an attenuation which can be 20, 50 or even 100x so having a limit on the bandwidth on low V/div settings can limit the useful signal range when using HF probes.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on May 22, 2019, 03:15:49 pm
I personally don't mind this, 500uV/div is picking up so much crap from environment that you usually enable some sort of bandwidth limiting anyways.
It's not only the 500µV range, but everything <= 2.45mV/div for the better models or <= 1mV/div for the 350MHz model. But you're right, the Tek MDO3000 scopes have similar, partially even worse limitations (couldn't find something like this for the MDO4000C but maybe I overlooked it). Actually the Tek MDO3000 also has limitations which differ from the two selectable bandwidth limits, so I guess it also can't/won't display an accurate BW limitation in the lower ranges!?

Anyway, even with an active differential 20:1 probe, I rarely go below 20mV/div, so the bandwidth limitation in the lower ranges isn't really a showstopper for me. So, yes, it might not be important for lots of people, but it's something to keep in mind when comparing scopes.
Side note: both selectable bandwidth limits (20MHz and 200MHz) on the SDS5000X are specified with +/-40% accuracy. This seems to be quite a lot but I couldn't find such a specification for any other scope.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: 2N3055 on May 22, 2019, 06:07:44 pm
Excerpt from specs MDO3000/4000...

Let me say this: Keysight 3000T is full bandwidth all the time..
Except it doesn't have 500µV/div. Or 1mV, or 2mV/div range. It's lowest real range is 4mV/div. I wish it had 500µV/div even if it meant lower bandwidth..
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: maginnovision on May 22, 2019, 06:20:00 pm
The 3000 is quite an old scope by now though. Over 10 years old.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: Mr Nutts on May 23, 2019, 10:24:22 am
The 3000 is quite an old scope by now though. Over 10 years old.

Neither MDO3000 nor Keysight 3000T are that old. The MDO is I think from 2013 and the 3000T from 2015 ;)
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: Performa01 on May 23, 2019, 11:01:41 am
I doubt it is bandwidth limiting (deliberate). It is more likely that front end amplifiers have finite gain bandwidth product, and when they start pushing certain gain bandwidth runs out....
I think you are not too far off.
It actually is not a noise issue.
Analysis of the frequency response reveals that the PGA (Programmable Gain Amplifier) doesn’t behave very well with high gain factors at frequencies above some 300MHz. See the following FR plots.

First the frequency response up to 2GHz at 5mV/div (grid is 200MHz/div and 5dB/div):

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/at-last-siglent_s-sds5054x-touchscreen/?action=dlattach;attach=744276;image)
SDS5104X_FFT_FR_2GHz_5mV_01

The frequency response at a lower gain like 5mV/div is rather nice already, in fact within +0.7/-1dB up to 880MHz and +0.7/-3dB up to 1.19GHz.

Now let’s have a look at the frequency response up to 2GHz at 500µV/div (grid is 200MHz/div and 5dB/div):

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/at-last-siglent_s-sds5054x-touchscreen/?action=dlattach;attach=744282;image)
SDS5104X_FR_500µV_full

Here we can already see that it doesn’t exactly look like a first order lowpass filter. Instead it shows some nasty peaking that might sum up to more than +2dB, even above 1GHz. With this, we might also exceed the large signal bandwidth of that PGA. Reason enough to have a bandwidth limit at the highest sensitivities. Yes, it could have been set a bit higher – as we can see for the 350MHz model, where we don’t need an explicit BW limit above 1mV/div.

Quite obviously, Siglent did not want to bother with individual filters and just enforced the existing 200MHz bandwidth limit instead. I fully agree that this should be indicated in the UI though and I have already requested this a while ago. So hopefully we’ll get that with the next FW-Update.

Side note: both selectable bandwidth limits (20MHz and 200MHz) on the SDS5000X are specified with +/-40% accuracy. This seems to be quite a lot but I couldn't find such a specification for any other scope.
The bandwidth limiter is an integral feature of the PGA. As you all know, on-chip resistors may have good thermal tracking, but also very high tolerances. This is the reason why the bandwidth limit cannot be any more accurate than that.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: maginnovision on May 23, 2019, 04:06:16 pm
The 3000 is quite an old scope by now though. Over 10 years old.

Neither MDO3000 nor Keysight 3000T are that old. The MDO is I think from 2013 and the 3000T from 2015 ;)

The 3000t underlying hardware is the same as the A.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tautech on June 03, 2019, 08:10:32 am
The latest production firmware is now available on the Siglent factory website.

Version 0.8.2R1
40.1 MB
http://old.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Firmware&Software/firmware/SDS5000X_0.8.2R1_EN.zip (http://old.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Firmware&Software/firmware/SDS5000X_0.8.2R1_EN.zip)

Release notes
1. Supported search across history frames
2. Optimized zone trigger and mask test accuracy in zoom mode;
3. Supported editing a trigger zone after creating it
4. Supported MIL-STD-1553B trigger
5. Improved the input frequency upper limit of holdoff by event from 20 MHz to 120 MHz
6. Solved the defect that the scope possibly does not trigger on the first edge of a burst train with carrier frequency
    above 120 MHz
7. Added Reboot and Shutdown function under “Utility” top bar menu, so the instrument can be remotely rebooted
    and shutdown by web
8. Supported saving the decode list as a CSV file
9. Optimized response time of mask test when disabling/enabling it or changing the type
10. Optimized webserver response when dragging a trace in vertical direction; Added alternative VNC port for
      webserver
11. Added automatic clear of measurement statistics when changing horizontal/vertical/trigger settings
12. Supported editing selected measurement parameter
13. Fixed several bugs
     a) Cursors: Unexpected jump when changing horizontal settings
     b) Webserver: Incorrect mouse position with IE in full screen mode
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: 2N3055 on June 03, 2019, 08:19:14 am
Release notes
1. Supported search across history frames


That is a great news. Now I really want to test it to see how it's implemented. Does it search on protocols too?
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tautech on June 03, 2019, 08:37:51 am
Release notes
1. Supported search across history frames


That is a great news. Now I really want to test it to see how it's implemented. Does it search on protocols too?
Dunno, I don't currently have a unit to play with.  :(
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: maginnovision on June 03, 2019, 08:42:38 am
Release notes
1. Supported search across history frames


That is a great news. Now I really want to test it to see how it's implemented. Does it search on protocols too?
Dunno, I don't currently have a unit to play with.  :(

Come on pusher man, just giving us a taste of patch notes. We need more!
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tautech on June 03, 2019, 08:50:34 am
Release notes
1. Supported search across history frames


That is a great news. Now I really want to test it to see how it's implemented. Does it search on protocols too?
Dunno, I don't currently have a unit to play with.  :(

Come on pusher man, just giving us a taste of patch notes. We need more!
I won't claim anything I can't prove for myself so you'll have to wait for JPortici or Performa01 to answer 2N3055's query.  :popcorn:
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: JPortici on June 03, 2019, 09:13:23 am
That is a great news. Now I really want to test it to see how it's implemented. Does it search on protocols too?

AFAIR, not yet
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: 2N3055 on June 03, 2019, 09:38:07 am
I won't claim anything I can't prove for myself so you'll have to wait for JPortici or Performa01 to answer 2N3055's query.  :popcorn:
It's okay, I just remembered that you don't have one. I'm in no hurry, it is just fantastic that Siglent can add it no problem and R&S can't.. 

If it can search historic buffers for both analog events and protocols, that makes it king of the hill in that regard.
Keysight 3000T has many protocols and measurement and search, but small memory, no histograms and color persistence modes. Most of the stuff is options.
R&S 3000 has memory, nice spectrum mode and decodes, but no search on segments, no search on common serial protocols and in general still seems kinda "not finished yet". And all of it is very expensive with even segmented memory being an option.
Lecroy Wavesurfer 3000 is just very basic. Nothing to be really excited about. Expensive for what it is. Everything is an option.
Rigol 7000 is still doing the "soul searching". Rigol will get there, but Siglent did a smart thing: they delayed product sales until they ironed out at least most important hardware platform things. Applications and measurements can be added later. Releasing scope that has basics working fine increases credibility with customer. Rigol was in a hurry to get out first, and they still have problems with autocal and such.

Big plus for Siglent here.
 
So yeah, as I said before 350Mhz 4ch SDS5000X is shaping up to be a class leader. It is cheapest of the scopes with similar capabilities, or has best capabilities for the scopes in that price range, however you choose to look at it. AFAIK this is first firmware update for it, already adding serious capabilities.. If they keep up the good work, with time it will become world class instrument.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: 2N3055 on June 03, 2019, 09:43:09 am
That is a great news. Now I really want to test it to see how it's implemented. Does it search on protocols too?

AFAIR, not yet

Thanks for that, much appreciated!!

Well, it is a shame, but let's hope they are working on it.
Even on Keysight 3000T with max 1000 segment, i use search all the time, both for analog parameters and sifting through the packets. Even 1000 segments in 2 Mpoint memory is too much to go through it manually. Now imagine that on a scope with 100s of Mpoint and 50000 segments.

Regards,
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: Performa01 on June 03, 2019, 12:04:19 pm
Release notes
1. Supported search across history frames

That is a great news. Now I really want to test it to see how it's implemented. Does it search on protocols too?
My statement from reply #216 still holds true ;)

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/at-last-siglent_s-sds5054x-touchscreen/msg2422620/#msg2422620 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/at-last-siglent_s-sds5054x-touchscreen/msg2422620/#msg2422620)

Quote
One that SDS50000X should be compared to is RTM3000K, but on that one promo is only for a fully loaded 1GHz one for 8600€.
Which is a good deal actually if you need 1GHz. Despite fact that on RTM3000K they don't even have search on basic protocols and segments so large memory they are promoting so much is pretty much useless...
I should point out that the SDS5000X cannot do a search for serial triggers right now. But I have requested this quite some time ago and it's on Siglent's to-do list.

Search across segments on the other hand – yet another request from me – has already been implemented in the latest firmware. Search is also reasonably fast, even with full 250MPts memory (<400ms per search) as I think I was able to demonstrate in an earlier post.

EDIT: I should add that the V0.8.2R1 firmware is already about two months old. But it's only now that it has been made available for public download.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: 2N3055 on June 03, 2019, 12:59:17 pm
Release notes
1. Supported search across history frames

That is a great news. Now I really want to test it to see how it's implemented. Does it search on protocols too?
My statement from reply #216 still holds true ;)

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/at-last-siglent_s-sds5054x-touchscreen/msg2422620/#msg2422620 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/at-last-siglent_s-sds5054x-touchscreen/msg2422620/#msg2422620)

Quote
One that SDS50000X should be compared to is RTM3000K, but on that one promo is only for a fully loaded 1GHz one for 8600€.
Which is a good deal actually if you need 1GHz. Despite fact that on RTM3000K they don't even have search on basic protocols and segments so large memory they are promoting so much is pretty much useless...
I should point out that the SDS5000X cannot do a search for serial triggers right now. But I have requested this quite some time ago and it's on Siglent's to-do list.

Search across segments on the other hand – yet another request from me – has already been implemented in the latest firmware. Search is also reasonably fast, even with full 250MPts memory (<400ms per search) as I think I was able to demonstrate in an earlier post.

EDIT: I should add that the V0.8.2R1 firmware is already about two months old. But it's only now that it has been made available for public download.

Thank you for clearing that out. I knew about your previous post, I just got confused a bit, thinking this was a step forward, since some time passed.
But as you said they are working on it, and when they do I would like to try it out to see how it compares .. At this moment, Siglent has earned certain level of respect in being realistic and keeping their promises (not in small part thanks to you !), and I'm looking forward to see what comes next. I'm also interested in FRA to higher frequencies, using SDG6000X, etc etc..

Interesting times.

Have a good one,

Siniša

Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: jemangedeslolos on June 07, 2019, 10:12:20 pm
Hello  !
I have to make a choice. I need two scope, one at home and one in my own lab. I bought a Rigol MSO5074 few weeks ago for home and I have a Siglent SDS2204X that I want to upgrade in my lab.

The SDS5034X seems to be a very good scope but the price difference is huge compared to an hacked MSO5000.
To be honest, A hacked MSO5000 will be fine for 99 %  of my work but I already have one.
Do you have practical example of what the SDS5034X can do and the MSO5000 can't  ?

It is not so easy to compare them on paper....but it seems that their performance are similar  ?

Thank you for helping me choosing the right one  : )
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: maginnovision on June 07, 2019, 10:18:29 pm
If you're paying for it, hacking it, and it works for pretty much everything I don't think the Rigol 5000 is going to be your 2nd choice considering the price difference. If you just want something new and different get the Siglent.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tautech on June 07, 2019, 11:03:05 pm
Hello  !
I have to make a choice. I need two scope, one at home and one in my own lab. I bought a Rigol MSO5074 few weeks ago for home and I have a Siglent SDS2204X that I want to upgrade in my lab.

The SDS5034X seems to be a very good scope but the price difference is huge compared to an hacked MSO5000.
To be honest, A hacked MSO5000 will be fine for 99 %  of my work but I already have one.
Do you have practical example of what the SDS5034X can do and the MSO5000 can't  ?

It is not so easy to compare them on paper....but it seems that their performance are similar  ?

Thank you for helping me choosing the right one  : )
Use the SPL2016 from your SDS2204X.
Webserver ? ..... haven’t had a play with the 5kX one yet but if it’s like the webserver in the X-E models it’s a useful remote access tool. Performa01 can advise.
Autosense probes.
50 ohm inputs ?
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: Martin72 on June 07, 2019, 11:24:36 pm
Quote
Autosense probes.

Still I can´t get the advantage of autosensig a probe - it tooks only seconds to adjust the coupling manually…

Where this:

Quote
50 ohm inputs ?

Is a really advantage for those who need it ( working with higher frequencies), a external termination couldn´t reach the performance of an internal one.
But is this worth a difference about say 1500€....
It´s a personal decision.
Although I´m looking for the SDS5000 for our needs, instead rigols 5000.
When it´s mostly debugged, the MSO 5000 (which I own in private)could be the first choice for hobbyists, it got outstanding performance for the price.
The SDS 5000 series are in a another class, in my opinion.



Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: Performa01 on June 08, 2019, 12:03:31 pm
Hello  !
I have to make a choice. I need two scope, one at home and one in my own lab. I bought a Rigol MSO5074 few weeks ago for home and I have a Siglent SDS2204X that I want to upgrade in my lab.

The SDS5034X seems to be a very good scope but the price difference is huge compared to an hacked MSO5000.
To be honest, A hacked MSO5000 will be fine for 99 %  of my work but I already have one.
Do you have practical example of what the SDS5034X can do and the MSO5000 can't  ?

It is not so easy to compare them on paper....but it seems that their performance are similar  ?

Thank you for helping me choosing the right one  : )
Regarding your particular question:

I cannot know what the MSO5000 can or cannot do, or how well certain features are implemented. It would be up to you to present a use case where the MSO5000 is not convincing (or fails altogether), then I could demonstrate how the SDS5000X handles it. Since the SDS5000X is not nearly feature complete yet, it might fail as well at this point.

Ultimately, I cannot comment on the MSO5000, but I can safely state that the SDS5034X would be a major upgrade to the SDS2204X.


Here is the more general answer:

The feature comparison of newly introduced instruments doesn’t tell the whole story. New features can be added later on, which might change the picture completely.

If you understand the instrument platform and its resources, then you should be able to know in advance whether you can expect a certain feature to be added at some point. And then it’s a matter of trust whether a manufacturer is willing to maintain their product and add new features after the introduction.

Since I happen to know the final feature set of the SDS5000X (because I have helped to define it), I certainly know what to expect – and that’s quite a lot. The current software platform is shared amongst all newer Siglent scopes (SDS1000X-E and SDS2000X-E with traditional UI, SDS5000X with touch UI) and it will also be used for future releases, including higher class instruments above the SDS5000X – to the effect that it expands the ongoing fruitful cooperation with LeCroy… ;)

Knowing a little what’s going on behind the scenes, I have full confidence in Siglent’s DSO/MSO platform development. I am glad to confirm that they actually listen to their beta testers/consultants and they also maintain an excellent relationship with their Western partners (such as LeCroy), rather than pissing them off ;)

Apart from the features, there are also topics not found in a spec sheet, like fan noise, quality of the (touch)screen, UI experience and responsiveness. In this regard, the SDS5000X absolutely doesn’t need to be afraid of the competition in my opinion. Yes, it cannot touch a Keysight DSOX3000T in terms of snappiness and speed, but offers plenty of memory and deep measurements in return, while still being plenty fast and responsive.

Because it has been mentioned before: the integrated webserver allows full instrument control as well as remote screenshots, data downloads and even firmware updates. This is a real convenience:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/at-last-siglent_s-sds5054x-touchscreen/?action=dlattach;attach=757725;image)
SDS5104X_Web 01


Still I can´t get the advantage of autosensig a probe - it tooks only seconds to adjust the coupling manually…
 
Yes, changing the probe factor is quick and convenient, especially with the touch UI, and in many test scenarios the same (x10) probes are used almost all the time.

On the other hand, at least a toggle between any probe and direct coax connection can be required quite frequently. If it’s just on a single channel, then it’s not a big deal, but it can become an annoyance when several channel have to be changed at once.

Apart from that, automatic probe sensing reduces the probability of user error. I’ve seen several instances (also on this forum), where incorrect probe factor settings spoiled automatic measurements and this was not immediately obvious for the operator.

To cut a long story short, probe autosensing is just a standard feature in all but entry-level scopes nowadays. In midrange scopes and beyond we expect active probe interfaces on top of that.

Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: Performa01 on June 09, 2019, 12:25:16 am
Here’s a demonstration how search across the history works on the SDS5000X with FW 0.8.2R1.

Look at the first screenshot:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/at-last-siglent_s-sds5054x-touchscreen/?action=dlattach;attach=758226;image)
SDS5104X_PRBS_10Mbps_Capture

Here we can see – well, nothing but a green wall ;)

It is the 1ms capture of a 10Mbps PRBS-28 signal and let’s see how often we can find a positive 1.6µs wide pulse in that data stream.

Next step is to hit the [Stop] button and analyze the current record data. For this a search for positive pulses between 1.59 and 1.61µs is set up:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/at-last-siglent_s-sds5054x-touchscreen/?action=dlattach;attach=758232;image)
SDS5104X_PRBS_10Mbps_Search_Current

Search didn’t yield any result yet. The small note “Event Num 0” hints on zero hits for the current search. Now we have to enter History (we could have done that before already instead of hitting [Stop], but I didn’t want to proceed too fast):

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/at-last-siglent_s-sds5054x-touchscreen/?action=dlattach;attach=758238;image)
SDS5104X_PRBS_10Mbps_Search_History_86

In the history, we ‘re still looking at the most recent acquisition frame and we already know that there is no hit. So we just activate the “Stop On Search Event” function and then press the reverse playback button. Within less than a second we find the one and only matching record. Please note that the playback speed can be freely defined – in this example it was set to 1ms per frame.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/at-last-siglent_s-sds5054x-touchscreen/?action=dlattach;attach=758244;image)
SDS5104X_PRBS_10Mbps_Search_History_24

The event got a white marker at the top of the trace display and the (end of the) event is centered on the screen. We can engage zoom in order to see the waveform and verify that we’ve indeed found a 1.6µs wide positive pulse.

If you look at these pictures, you’ll notice that we’ve captured a total of 86 frames of 5Mpts each in the history.

Record length is 5Mpts, so let’s do the math:
86 x 5Mpts = 430Mpts
This means that even though 250Mpts is huge already, we get even more for the history and also sequence recording, where the SDS5000X has low blind time and provides a maximum of  >500kWf/s.


Now let’s try something different. Here’s the 50ms capture of a 200Mbps PRBS-28 data stream and we’re looking for positive pulses 79 to 80ns wide:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/at-last-siglent_s-sds5054x-touchscreen/?action=dlattach;attach=758250;image)
SDS5104X_PRBS_200Mbps_Search_Overview

No history here, we’ve captured 250Mpts at once. Search works much faster in this case – it only takes a fraction of a second to find all 34 occurrences of the 80ns wide positive pulses in the record. Each of them has a white marker at the top of the display window. For closer inspection we need to engage zoom and then we use the [Navigate] function to find the individual search events:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/at-last-siglent_s-sds5054x-touchscreen/?action=dlattach;attach=758256;image)
SDS5104X_PRBS_200Mbps_Search_01

If we turn the event list on, then all events are displayed with their respective timestamps. We can scroll through the list and select any of the entries in order to have it centered in the zoom window. Here’s an example for event #21:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/at-last-siglent_s-sds5054x-touchscreen/?action=dlattach;attach=758262;image)
SDS5104X_PRBS_200Mbps_Search_Eventlist_21

Now let’s try this with segmented memory. Of course this is not a realistic test scenario; segmented memory is best suited for infrequent trigger events and of course I could set up one for the PRBS stream, but then the search event would most likely be found either in all segments or in none of them. That’s why I have to stick with the unspecific edge trigger.

History frame #60 contains the first hit, i.e. a positive pulse width of 80ns:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/at-last-siglent_s-sds5054x-touchscreen/?action=dlattach;attach=758268;image)
SDS5104X_PRBS_200Mbps_Search_History_01

History frame #3958 contains the next (2nd) hit:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/at-last-siglent_s-sds5054x-touchscreen/?action=dlattach;attach=758274;image)
SDS5104X_PRBS_200Mbps_Search_History_02

And finally, here’s the last (14th) hit in history frame #49154:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/at-last-siglent_s-sds5054x-touchscreen/?action=dlattach;attach=758280;image)
SDS5104X_PRBS_200Mbps_Search_History_14

Search through the segmented memory takes a lot longer than within a single record – we can search about 12500 history frames per second. Consequently, a search through the maximum of 100k history frames takes 8 seconds. So it’s not the memory size, but overhead of the list structure with 100k entries that takes its toll. Here we can see one of the reasons why e.g. a Keysight MSOX3000T can be so responsive: If the SDS5000X where limited to just 1000 history frames, it could search through the entire segmented memory within just 80ms …
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: jemangedeslolos on June 09, 2019, 08:12:14 am
Hello,

Thank you for all your answers.
I haven't yet taken the time to test in depth my MSO5074.
The only criticism I can emit for now is that the user interface is slow ( compared to my SDS2204X ).
It is not a big deal but it is nice to use a responsive scope for everyday use.

I'm sure to not make a mistake buying an SDS5000X. I saw the extensive test from Performa01 and it seems that it is a solid plateform.
I have logic probe from my SDS2204X I can re-use so it is a good point.....but nobody seems to be interessted in buying my SDS2204X.
So there is the money problem....there is a 2000€ difference between MSO5074 and SDS5000X.

Im still a yound player so Im not as experimented as Performa01 or ntnico.
When looking at their scope test, I learned techniques that I didn't know before....
95% of my job is playing with high speed digital signal and low level analog signal from sensor but I don't know what project I will work on in 2 years

Serial decoding and triggering, deep memory, FFT and a good analog front end are important for me.
If I can have a touch screen and a silent and responsive scope I will be very happy.
I'm interested in the SVA1000X for the EMI pre compliance measurement kit too because for the first time, I will design a product that need to meet standards.
Maybe the SDS5000X can offer basic EMI testing that MSO5000 can't and allows me not to buy the SVA1000X ?
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: bugi on June 09, 2019, 09:34:40 am
Search through the segmented memory takes a lot longer than within a single record – we can search about 12500 history frames per second. Consequently, a search through the maximum of 100k history frames takes 8 seconds. So it’s not the memory size, but overhead of the list structure with 100k entries that takes its toll. Here we can see one of the reasons why e.g. a Keysight MSOX3000T can be so responsive: If the SDS5000X where limited to just 1000 history frames, it could search through the entire segmented memory within just 80ms …
Hmm.. I may be lacking some background info about the process of searching matches within sample data between single record vs. segmented stuff.. but for me, the way I think it should work, the overhead of having separate frames should add negligible overhead (as long as the ratio between frames and total samples is sane, not like 10 samples per frame), and this kind of slowdown smells like bad coding. E.g. the array/list access being unnecessarily deep inside nested loops, or doing unnecessary display updates about the frames as the search keeps going (a bit like the difference of searching matches from a file with vs. without writing the contents of the file while doing it, orders of magnitude slower to write it all), or similar.  Would be interesting to learn the reason of the current performance difference; either I learn something new, or Siglent developers get a chance to optimize the code better.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: Performa01 on June 09, 2019, 09:38:11 am
Serial decoding and triggering, deep memory, FFT and a good analog front end are important for me.
If I can have a touch screen and a silent and responsive scope I will be very happy.
I'm interested in the SVA1000X for the EMI pre compliance measurement kit too because for the first time, I will design a product that need to meet standards.
Maybe the SDS5000X can offer basic EMI testing that MSO5000 can't and allows me not to buy the SVA1000X ?
If you work with analog sensors, then the low-noise frontend with 500µV/div sensitivity is certainly a bonus compared to the (true) 4mV/div of an MSO5000. Yes, there is a 200MHz bandwidth limit, but it doesn't seem like you're planning to probe ultralow signals in the UHF range anyway ;)

The 2Mpts FFT is excellent already and there are several improvements planned for it in the future. A first step has been taken already, namely markers and peak list, which have just been introduced for the SDS1004X-E series. Here you can see the effect of the new platform: more than one year after introduction, the SDS1004X-E still gets nice new features added - to the benefit of all existing and future users.

As stated before, there is more to come with regard to the FFT, but we did not define an EMI precompliance test package and I don't think this is an oversight. EMI precompliance tests usually require 1GHz bandwidth (minimum), which an SDS5100X can deliver, but also a set of well defined resolution bandwidths, which might be difficult to maintain with a DSO FFT, where RBW is affected by so many factors and cannot be fine-tuned to a certain value.

Finally, EMC directives have been introduced some 30 years ago and back then engineers still performed pre compliance tests, using an ordinary analog spectrum analyzer without any software running on it. Only requirement was the availability of the standardized resolution bandwidths for this task.

The SDS2204X can be had for about €1.300,- (ex. tax) in the EU right now. So you cannot expect too much from selling yours anyway. But if you found your SDS2204X responsive, then you'd really love the SDS5000X because the excellent touch UI speeds operation up quite significantly. It is less noisy and the serial decoders are better implemented as well.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: Performa01 on June 09, 2019, 09:55:14 am
Search through the segmented memory takes a lot longer than within a single record – we can search about 12500 history frames per second. Consequently, a search through the maximum of 100k history frames takes 8 seconds. So it’s not the memory size, but overhead of the list structure with 100k entries that takes its toll. Here we can see one of the reasons why e.g. a Keysight MSOX3000T can be so responsive: If the SDS5000X where limited to just 1000 history frames, it could search through the entire segmented memory within just 80ms …
Hmm.. I may be lacking some background info about the process of searching matches within sample data between single record vs. segmented stuff.. but for me, the way I think it should work, the overhead of having separate frames should add negligible overhead (as long as the ratio between frames and total samples is sane, not like 10 samples per frame), and this kind of slowdown smells like bad coding. E.g. the array/list access being unnecessarily deep inside nested loops, or doing unnecessary display updates about the frames as the search keeps going (a bit like the difference of searching matches from a file with vs. without writing the contents of the file while doing it, orders of magnitude slower to write it all), or similar.  Would be interesting to learn the reason of the current performance difference; either I learn something new, or Siglent developers get a chance to optimize the code better.
Navigation though History generally displays every single frame on the screen. This is pretty much like normal operation, so the speed cannot be much faster than the waveform update rate for the settings in use. It comes down to the number of samples per record that need to be displayed and the reconstruction/interpolation requirements, which was 2.5k points (and because of the high number of samples there was no need for sin(x)/x reconstruction, just linear interpolation) in this example at 50ns/div timebase. During normal operation, we get a waveform update rate of some 10.3kWfm/s with these settings, so history playback is even a bit faster than that.

Search through History is currently just a normal playback that stops when the search event was found.
Maybe we could change that and skip the screen update during search - I'll have to discuss this with R&D.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: Mr Nutts on June 09, 2019, 10:12:04 am
The 3000 is quite an old scope by now though. Over 10 years old.

Neither MDO3000 nor Keysight 3000T are that old. The MDO is I think from 2013 and the 3000T from 2015 ;)

The 3000t underlying hardware is the same as the A.

The X3000T hardware is based on the X4000A ;)

And even the X3000A is not ten years old. In fact, none of the Infinivision X scopes are that old (I think the first Infinivision X came out in 2012, that's just 7 years) ;)
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: 2N3055 on June 09, 2019, 11:18:37 am
The X3000T hardware is based on the X4000A ;)
That is correct.. 3000T IS basically 4000 with smaller screen. To the point that there are some leftover references to 4000 in 3000T user manual..
All the software options are the same, except that:
- 4000 is available also in 1,5GHz version that has ETS sampling then.
- it has 2 ch siggen as opposed to 1 on 3000T
- 2 USB ports
- While 3000T has full active probe interface, it doesn't have enough power for all of them and can't support connecting more probes at the same time, depending on power needed. 4000B can supply full 4 ch of active probes.
All else is pretty much the same.

Keysight Infiniivision 3000T is good and fast and stable and just works. It is also a platform that has some funny priorities. For instance I would have liked to have 8Mpoints at 500kWfms/s instead of  4Mpoints at 1MWfms/s. Or even 16Mpoints at 250kWfms/s. Or give us a way to choose.
It is also deliberately stripped down in features :
- No ETS, although 4000 has it. Not a showstopper, but useful sometimes. It's in there, deliberately disabled.
- No colour grading.... 350 USD scopes have it. Color grading with inverse palette is very useful to see rare events..
- No histogramming in any form.. Cmon, histograms are common and very useful. All the data is in the scope.

SDS5000X has no such artificial limits. All major manufacturers always put  advanced analysis features only on high bandwidth scopes, asking huge sums.
I hold high hopes that this "new Chinese wave" changes that. And with current B brands getting better every day, A brands will have to keep up. They already lost entry level scopes segment, and are on a way to lose lower mid segment if they don't keep up.
Some of them seem to have decided to give up on that segment (LeCroy is simply rebadging Siglent, so they have can have full catalog of products), Tektronix don't care, R&S is pretending not to care, but will soon probably stop with making anything less than RTB2000....
Keysight has manufacturing structure that could compete with B brands, but they are paranoid not to mess with their own product placement structure and nice profit margins they managed to keep so far capitalizing on strong company image. So it is questionable if they are willing to go hand to hand with B brands and make big changes in current lines. Like Tektronix, if they wan't to reinvent Infiniivision series, they need it all new, from 2000 to 6000.
But can't make it much different (loyal customers swear it's their favorite UI), they can't add more options and protocols (they already have  pretty much all of them), so all they can do now is add more sample memory which would mean new MegaZoom and wastly faster processor and FPGA on mainboard, because they have to keep it REALLY FAST, so it's no worse than the old one despite 100x more memory they would have to add..

So I don't see much happening with A brands soon. So at the moment, SDS5000X looks real promising.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: bugi on June 09, 2019, 11:23:09 am
Search through History is currently just a normal playback that stops when the search event was found.
Maybe we could change that and skip the screen update during search - I'll have to discuss this with R&D.
Hopefully not full screen freeze, i.e. UI should preferably still respond to touches (say, cancel the search) and show other events (if such are possible, e.g. over-voltage on a probe input should be shown immediately). And something to indicate that the search is progressing is still nice (say, a frame counter "1234/50000" and hit counter, which would not even need to be updated for every single frame processed, but e.g. 10 times per second).  A really nice way would be to do the search "behind the scenes" until the first hit is found, then immediately show that frame on the display, but continue looking for more hits. That way the user can already analyze the first hit while the rest is being searched, perhaps to realize the search conditions were incorrect and thus press cancel to stop wasting time (though hopefully that wasted time will be shorter anyway, due to speedup of the search when not continuously doing big updates on the screen).
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: 2N3055 on June 09, 2019, 11:30:05 am
Search through the segmented memory takes a lot longer than within a single record – we can search about 12500 history frames per second. Consequently, a search through the maximum of 100k history frames takes 8 seconds. So it’s not the memory size, but overhead of the list structure with 100k entries that takes its toll. Here we can see one of the reasons why e.g. a Keysight MSOX3000T can be so responsive: If the SDS5000X where limited to just 1000 history frames, it could search through the entire segmented memory within just 80ms …
Hmm.. I may be lacking some background info about the process of searching matches within sample data between single record vs. segmented stuff.. but for me, the way I think it should work, the overhead of having separate frames should add negligible overhead (as long as the ratio between frames and total samples is sane, not like 10 samples per frame), and this kind of slowdown smells like bad coding. E.g. the array/list access being unnecessarily deep inside nested loops, or doing unnecessary display updates about the frames as the search keeps going (a bit like the difference of searching matches from a file with vs. without writing the contents of the file while doing it, orders of magnitude slower to write it all), or similar.  Would be interesting to learn the reason of the current performance difference; either I learn something new, or Siglent developers get a chance to optimize the code better.
Navigation though History generally displays every single frame on the screen. This is pretty much like normal operation, so the speed cannot be much faster than the waveform update rate for the settings in use. It comes down to the number of samples per record that need to be displayed and the reconstruction/interpolation requirements, which was 2.5k points (and because of the high number of samples there was no need for sin(x)/x reconstruction, just linear interpolation) in this example at 50ns/div timebase. During normal operation, we get a waveform update rate of some 10.3kWfm/s with these settings, so history playback is even a bit faster than that.

Search through History is currently just a normal playback that stops when the search event was found.
Maybe we could change that and skip the screen update during search - I'll have to discuss this with R&D.

Keysight shows only progress bar while analysing segments, and it takes few seconds despite two orders of magnitude smaller memory.
I don't think 8 seconds for going through 400Ms of memory is that slow.  Faster is always better, but it is already faster than Keysight 3000T for that, comparatively.
I would put priority to complete search trough segments for protocol decodes. That is a killer feature.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: rf-loop on June 09, 2019, 11:38:38 am
Search through History is currently just a normal playback that stops when the search event was found.
Maybe we could change that and skip the screen update during search - I'll have to discuss this with R&D.
Hopefully not full screen freeze, i.e. UI should preferably still respond to touches (say, cancel the search) and show other events (if such are possible, e.g. over-voltage on a probe input should be shown immediately). And something to indicate that the search is progressing is still nice (say, a frame counter "1234/50000" and hit counter, which would not even need to be updated for every single frame processed, but e.g. 10 times per second).  A really nice way would be to do the search "behind the scenes" until the first hit is found, then immediately show that frame on the display, but continue looking for more hits. That way the user can already analyze the first hit while the rest is being searched, perhaps to realize the search conditions were incorrect and thus press cancel to stop wasting time (though hopefully that wasted time will be shorter anyway, due to speedup of the search when not continuously doing big updates on the screen).

Did you note "History".  Searching in History means searching from wfm history buffer (independent of how it is captured, in normal run when it is always saving in backround or using fast sequence mode) and as far as I know this history memory we can analyze only when scope is stopped - except if SDS5kX changes all....
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: JPortici on June 09, 2019, 11:39:27 am
SDS5000X has no such artificial limits. All major manufacturers always put  advanced analysis features only on high bandwidth scopes, asking huge sums.

And that's because the 5000X IS the most advanced instrument from siglent available today. It makes complete sense to enchance it as much as possible
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: 2N3055 on June 09, 2019, 12:17:33 pm
SDS5000X has no such artificial limits. All major manufacturers always put  advanced analysis features only on high bandwidth scopes, asking huge sums.

And that's because the 5000X IS the most advanced instrument from siglent available today. It makes complete sense to enchance it as much as possible

Exactly!!

We are at the same point as with Japanese products many years ago. Best model (then very cheap) Honda had better equipment, better performance and better reliability than cheapest (still much more expensive than Honda) car from premium manufacturer, that had no equipment, was slow and not ver< reliable.... Same was with Yamaha and Ibanez musical instruments at the beginning..

Rigol chipset is more powerful than Keysight's Megazoom IV. But that is not the whole scope. I think Rigol made a mistake using Keysight as a model. Because of that Rigol's U/I is not very logical, and is limited. It would have been better if they took R&S or LeCroy as an inspiration, as those are U/I concepts made for touch...
That is why Siglent feels so much better now, because they realized modern scope is all about this layer between A/D converters and users, and not about chasing some hardware specifications.

 
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: bugi on June 09, 2019, 12:36:24 pm
Search through History is currently just a normal playback that stops when the search event was found.
Maybe we could change that and skip the screen update during search - I'll have to discuss this with R&D.
Hopefully not full screen freeze, i.e. UI should preferably still respond to touches (say, cancel the search) and show other events (if such are possible, e.g. over-voltage on a probe input should be shown immediately). And something to indicate that the search is progressing is still nice (say, a frame counter "1234/50000" and hit counter, which would not even need to be updated for every single frame processed, but e.g. 10 times per second).  A really nice way would be to do the search "behind the scenes" until the first hit is found, then immediately show that frame on the display, but continue looking for more hits. That way the user can already analyze the first hit while the rest is being searched, perhaps to realize the search conditions were incorrect and thus press cancel to stop wasting time (though hopefully that wasted time will be shorter anyway, due to speedup of the search when not continuously doing big updates on the screen).

Did you note "History".  Searching in History means searching from wfm history buffer (independent of how it is captured, in normal run when it is always saving in backround or using fast sequence mode) and as far as I know this history memory we can analyze only when scope is stopped - except if SDS5kX changes all....
I didn't notice that "history", but I think I was still thinking the appropriate mode of operation. I'm assuming with "when scope is stopped" you mean that the scope signal inputs are not being recorded/processed, but e.g. UI could still be operated.

While going back in the thread trying to find out what sort computation ICs they use (found onle a rumor/mention of zynq for the main CPU), I noticed JPortici wrote a while ago that "UI is always responsive. The trace will take some time to update during high memory captures at low time/div, or when doing FFT at 2MPts at some time/div settings, but that's to be expected because it phisically takes some time to acquire the waveform."
... which makes me think I don't need to worry, Siglent seems to have learned this particular stuff and a trace not being updated is not a problem as long as the UI otherwise keeps responsive. And if the main SoC is indeed a Zynq, it is definitely capable of doing multi-threading etc. to keep UI and data processing nicely asynchronous, should the software be done properly.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: Performa01 on June 09, 2019, 01:01:52 pm
Search through History is currently just a normal playback that stops when the search event was found.
Maybe we could change that and skip the screen update during search - I'll have to discuss this with R&D.
Hopefully not full screen freeze, i.e. UI should preferably still respond to touches (say, cancel the search) and show other events (if such are possible, e.g. over-voltage on a probe input should be shown immediately). And something to indicate that the search is progressing is still nice (say, a frame counter "1234/50000" and hit counter, which would not even need to be updated for every single frame processed, but e.g. 10 times per second).  A really nice way would be to do the search "behind the scenes" until the first hit is found, then immediately show that frame on the display, but continue looking for more hits. That way the user can already analyze the first hit while the rest is being searched, perhaps to realize the search conditions were incorrect and thus press cancel to stop wasting time (though hopefully that wasted time will be shorter anyway, due to speedup of the search when not continuously doing big updates on the screen).
We already have that for Sequence mode recording. Screen waveform update can take anything between 0.4s to 26.5s, depending on the settings and a progress bar is shown. Yet we can cancel sequence recording anytime by pressing [Stop] or even switching Sequence mode off on the touch UI.

I think that “background search” – while certainly a charming approach – would take matters a little too far. Without the screen update, I’d expect the search being an order of magnitude faster and I just cannot believe any user would be so desperate and unable to wait for a second or two until the next search event is found.


Keysight shows only progress bar while analysing segments, and it takes few seconds despite two orders of magnitude smaller memory.
I don't think 8 seconds for going through 400Ms of memory is that slow.  Faster is always better, but it is already faster than Keysight 3000T for that, comparatively.
I would put priority to complete search trough segments for protocol decodes. That is a killer feature.
Thanks for clearing this up. Even though I do have access to both Keysight MSOX3000A and 3000T at work, I rarely have the time to play with them. For my job, a Picoscope MSO is much better suited, so this is what I have on my desk all the time.

I also don’t think that having to wait for 8 seconds (worst case, if no hit is found) is too much asked, but then I have an open (low priority!) request to expand the number of history frames even more, so this topic might gain relevance some day.

With regard to the search for serial trigger conditions, it’s on the list, but not with high priority right now. Since you’re strongly advocating that feature, I’ll do my best to push it a little ;)


Did you note "History".  Searching in History means searching from wfm history buffer (independent of how it is captured, in normal run when it is always saving in backround or using fast sequence mode) and as far as I know this history memory we can analyze only when scope is stopped - except if SDS5kX changes all....
You are absolutely correct. Whenever you enter History mode, the scope automatically changes to Stop mode. During Run, the History acts as a circular buffer that gets continuously updated, hence there is absolutely no point in attempting to analyze anything there.


SDS5000X has no such artificial limits. All major manufacturers always put  advanced analysis features only on high bandwidth scopes, asking huge sums.

And that's because the 5000X IS the most advanced instrument from siglent available today. It makes complete sense to enchance it as much as possible
Yes, exactly. This platform is continuously developed to match all the requirements of the final SDS5000X and then even beyond that. All the current and future models based on this platform can benefit from that, as some of the improvements might trickle down even to lower end models – or even get prototyped there first, as we can currently see with FFT markers and Bode Plot II.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: nctnico on June 09, 2019, 01:09:22 pm
Just wondering: is it possible to set the SDS5000 to a fixed (selectable) memory depth?
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: JPortici on June 09, 2019, 02:40:23 pm
No, it's the same as the other siglent (and other scopes)
You select the maximum memory depth. Then, according to the selected timebase the optimal memory/samplerate settings will be used in order to have 10 divisions worth of data, adjusting the samplerate in order to have the highest number of samples possible
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: nctnico on June 09, 2019, 02:46:23 pm
No, it's the same as the other siglent (and other scopes)
You select the maximum memory depth. Then, according to the selected timebase the optimal memory/samplerate settings will be used in order to have 10 divisions worth of data, adjusting the samplerate in order to have the highest number of samples possible
OK, that pretty much sucks then. In many cases I want to be able to zoom out to see what is beyond the screen when something interesting has appeared. It saves from needing to adjusting the timebase all the time (and re-measure if I forgot it). My MO is to capture large amounts of data and then look for interesting stuff instead of doing small acquisitions with targetted trigger settings. The latter is A) tedious and time consuming and B) an anomaly (caused by something earlier on) may not show up again the same way. The SDS5000 wouldn't work for me if it can't have a fixed memory depth setting regardless of the time/div setting.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: JPortici on June 09, 2019, 02:57:27 pm
yes yes yes i know. Let's wait for the usual "but you're using it wrong".
Then again, it hasn't been an issue to me. Current samplerate and memory depth is shown on the bottom right and to me that's fine. I'm used to this sort of behaviour because i mostly use scopes that work this way
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: jemangedeslolos on June 09, 2019, 03:00:53 pm
Thank you very much, but asking my question on a SDS5000X topic is not a very clever thing to do for my money  ;D

I priced down my SDS2204X with full option at 800€ without the SPL2016. I don't know if it a reasonable price or not.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: bugi on June 09, 2019, 04:55:55 pm
I priced down my SDS2204X with full option at 800€ without the SPL2016. I don't know if it a reasonable price or not.
Considering what the scope manufacturers themselves ask for some stuff (e.g. options that are basically same between series, but hugely different price when listed on a pricier series), anything is reasonable, it is just a matter of point of view (and/or marketing). Or, as more commonly said, (non-literal translation, I wonder if there is an English saying for this) "stupid is not who asks (a high amount of money), but the one who pays".
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: maginnovision on June 09, 2019, 05:07:25 pm
The 3000 is quite an old scope by now though. Over 10 years old.

Neither MDO3000 nor Keysight 3000T are that old. The MDO is I think from 2013 and the 3000T from 2015 ;)

The 3000t underlying hardware is the same as the A.

The X3000T hardware is based on the X4000A ;)

And even the X3000A is not ten years old. In fact, none of the Infinivision X scopes are that old (I think the first Infinivision X came out in 2012, that's just 7 years) ;)

Sure, so it's based on 6-7 year old hardware. My only point was it's significantly older than the sds5000, once it's updated they'll probably get away from magnification from 4mV/div.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: jemangedeslolos on June 14, 2019, 08:00:37 am
I have a last question  ;D

It is regarding knob quality....the ones on the SDS2000X are a little cheap ( no detents ones ).
Is there an improvement at this level regarding the SDS5000X ?

It may seem stupid as a question but it is important for me when I buy equipment of this price that the global quality is here.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tautech on June 14, 2019, 08:12:11 am
I have a last question  ;D

It is regarding knob quality....the ones on the SDS2000X are a little cheap ( no detents ones ).
Is there an improvement at this level regarding the SDS5000X ?

It may seem stupid as a question but it is important for me when I buy equipment of this price that the global quality is here.
Same.

IIRC the multipurpose encoder is still not detented although it matters far less as in most operations the touch display is somewhat easier and faster to use.
My SDS5kX first impressions:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/at-last-siglent_s-sds5054x-touchscreen/msg2426481/#msg2426481 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/at-last-siglent_s-sds5054x-touchscreen/msg2426481/#msg2426481)
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: JPortici on June 14, 2019, 11:41:13 am
The only knods with detent are the horizontal and vertical scale. all others (position/level) are without detent.
All knobs can be pressed and have their function (select/zoom/zero/fine/50%) but to press the button while rotating them you must have to be a carefree elephant
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: bugi on June 16, 2019, 02:09:53 pm
In Dave's review video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxu19IFHMgc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxu19IFHMgc)), around 13:15 and 47:23, he mentions about knob behavior. Seems Siglent still hasn't figured out how to do the rotation input handling properly (i.e. looks a bit similar to SDS2000X after the firmware improvements, i.e. usable, but still not nice).  Couple years of time to improve it (or even redo from scratch) and still at level of embedded development basics course exercise, barely passed :P  (And no, touchscreen is not a valid excuse, because for many parameters knobs win in usability 10-0. Or would, if working nicely.)

PS. How does one have link to a youtube video without the forum turning it into a preview image?
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: Martin72 on June 16, 2019, 07:42:28 pm
At last a review and Dave finds immediately some bugs.. :D
I wonder why the intensity grading is worser against the sds1104-xe...  ???
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tautech on June 16, 2019, 08:20:55 pm
In Dave's review video around 13:15 and 47:23, he mentions about knob behavior. Seems Siglent still hasn't figured out how to do the rotation input handling properly (i.e. looks a bit similar to SDS2000X after the firmware improvements, i.e. usable, but still not nice).

All Siglents other recent scopes do this quite well and in more recent times there's also been a move to virtual keyboards that are far easier to make bigger parameter changes with than twiddling a knob, be it with algorithm acceleration or not.
Quote
And no, touchscreen is not a valid excuse, because for many parameters knobs win in usability 10-0. Or would, if working nicely.
You have that entirely wrong, the current touch configuration combined with virtual keyboards will win a major parameter change hands down. Maybe for just a few digits encoders will win but not in the couple of days I had a SDS5034X to play with. Dave didn't spend a lot of time on virtual keyboard use and show how fast it can be compared to using encoders.
SDS5034X was the first touch display scope I'd ever used so there was some different way of using it to get used to and IMO Dave was showing what are inconsistencies in the UI between touch use and traditional physical adjustments of which there currently are several. That's fair enough, like Dave says the SDS5kX still needs some polish.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: nctnico on June 16, 2019, 08:25:03 pm
I have to agree. On equipment with a (virtual) keyboard I never use a rotary knob to set a number. Simply punching in a number is much quicker.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: 2N3055 on June 16, 2019, 08:38:43 pm
I have to agree. On equipment with a (virtual) keyboard I never use a rotary knob to set a number. Simply punching in a number is much quicker.
I also agree, virtual keyboard is 80% of touch screen usability improvement.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: bugi on June 17, 2019, 10:03:15 am
Quote
And no, touchscreen is not a valid excuse, because for many parameters knobs win in usability 10-0. Or would, if working nicely.
You have that entirely wrong, the current touch configuration combined with virtual keyboards will win a major parameter change hands down. Maybe for just a few digits encoders will win but not in the couple of days I had a SDS5034X to play with. Dave didn't spend a lot of time on virtual keyboard use and show how fast it can be compared to using encoders.
For a large set or step change, virtual keyboard wins, I agree on that, but for the finer repeated adjustments the knob wins, or when the needed value is not known (say, unknown signal goes out the top of screen, and you want to adjust offset so that it comes into view). And for some reason, in my so far done usage, I seem to be continuously doing such small adjustments (mainly on cursors, offsets, trigger levels/timings). I guess I should have realized to write it "for many parameters and small adjustments".  In this case with the "is not a valid excuse" I tried to tackle those who would come and say that knobs are completely obsolete simply because of touchscreen.

Another thing where touchscreen wins knobs is doing selections (menus and such), where a knob sucks (especially when there is no fine-level feedback on where the sort of "invisible pointer" is going in the menu).

Just to be clear, I do like to have touchscreens and virtual keyboards; more options for user input is better, especially when there are so many different kinds of needs in an oscilloscope. But I also like proper knob (and button etc.) implementations and prefer them for many a task.  Hmm.. there are still some more that could be moved from knobs to touchscreen if the touchscreen version was implemented well, but what I have seen so far seems to indicate that the responsiveness isn't good enough (e.g. instead of having around 30Hz update rate on the view, it looks more like 3Hz in some cases; doesn't affect virtual keyboard input, but does affect e.g. dragging).


I wonder, if the other recent Siglent scope models have done the knobs better, what happened... why not in this more expensive scope series.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tautech on June 17, 2019, 10:51:50 am
Quote
And no, touchscreen is not a valid excuse, because for many parameters knobs win in usability 10-0. Or would, if working nicely.
You have that entirely wrong, the current touch configuration combined with virtual keyboards will win a major parameter change hands down. Maybe for just a few digits encoders will win but not in the couple of days I had a SDS5034X to play with. Dave didn't spend a lot of time on virtual keyboard use and show how fast it can be compared to using encoders.
For a large set or step change, virtual keyboard wins, I agree on that, but for the finer repeated adjustments the knob wins, or when the needed value is not known (say, unknown signal goes out the top of screen, and you want to adjust offset so that it comes into view). And for some reason, in my so far done usage, I seem to be continuously doing such small adjustments (mainly on cursors, offsets, trigger levels/timings). I guess I should have realized to write it "for many parameters and small adjustments".  In this case with the "is not a valid excuse" I tried to tackle those who would come and say that knobs are completely obsolete simply because of touchscreen.

Another thing where touchscreen wins knobs is doing selections (menus and such), where a knob sucks (especially when there is no fine-level feedback on where the sort of "invisible pointer" is going in the menu).

Just to be clear, I do like to have touchscreens and virtual keyboards; more options for user input is better, especially when there are so many different kinds of needs in an oscilloscope. But I also like proper knob (and button etc.) implementations and prefer them for many a task.  Hmm.. there are still some more that could be moved from knobs to touchscreen if the touchscreen version was implemented well, but what I have seen so far seems to indicate that the responsiveness isn't good enough (e.g. instead of having around 30Hz update rate on the view, it looks more like 3Hz in some cases; doesn't affect virtual keyboard input, but does affect e.g. dragging).


I wonder, if the other recent Siglent scope models have done the knobs better, what happened... why not in this more expensive scope series.
Remember SDS5kX is a completely new UI for Siglent so I imagine encoder acceleration is lower on the list than getting other more important functionality running and polished. For now the virtual keyboard meets the needs of touch users well enough until encoder acceleration can be properly implemented.
Performa01 will know more about where it lies on the 'to do' list.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: Performa01 on June 18, 2019, 07:59:58 am
Remember SDS5kX is a completely new UI for Siglent so I imagine encoder acceleration is lower on the list than getting other more important functionality running and polished. For now the virtual keyboard meets the needs of touch users well enough until encoder acceleration can be properly implemented.
Performa01 will know more about where it lies on the 'to do' list.
I was surprised as well when I first noticed that there is no encoder acceleration. But then I adapted my habits by using gestures to coarse adjust x/y-positions and the encoder for precise fine positioning.

But now, after watching Dave’s video, I have brought up this topic again and so we’ll hopefully get some improvement for this.

For example the SDS1004X-E does have the encoder acceleration, it’s just not very good as it seems to  have just two speed steps, which certainly isn’t nearly enough to cover the huge number range that is required for some settings, e.g. x-position on a strongly zoomed waveform. But then there we have the Navigate function at least. On the other hand the 2nd speed is a bit too aggressive for fine adjust, which has to be done rather slowly because of this.

So ideally I’d like to see a quasi-continuous variable acceleration, i.e. multiple speed steps for the encoders.

Until then, we could make do with the SDS1004X-E implementation on a touch UI, but with a less aggressive acceleration for the 2nd stage.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: bugi on June 18, 2019, 10:23:12 am
I think Dave also mentioned that the knobs sometimes seem to miss an input step, i.e. moves less than expected. I.e. not just acceleration issues. However, it could be that he was rotating fast enough that it was continuously in some acceleration level, and at some actions somehow dropped to unaccelerated, feeling like missing a bit. Either way, bad user experience.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on August 14, 2019, 06:53:57 pm
I just wonder: it was mentioned multiple times how Siglent's attitude towards fixing bugs and the like had improved. Yet I figure more than two months have passed since the last firmware update and the last available firmware version is still the one that Dave has used in his review (V0.8.2R1). So is there any hope they work on fixing the known issues, improving the FFT etc. or was all this improved customer service thing just wishful thinking after all?
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tv84 on August 14, 2019, 07:10:46 pm
two months have passed since the last firmware update and the last available firmware version is still the one that Dave has used in his review (V0.8.2R1).

The FW is from March 29th... Not the end of the world.

Let's give them time to make things right.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: Martin72 on August 14, 2019, 07:32:41 pm
Quote
Let's give them time to make things right.

Nearly 5 months are nothing against the 18(!) months I´m waiting for debugging the WS3024(SDS3024)....
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on August 14, 2019, 07:48:25 pm
Though it's slightly unfair to compare the situation of a scope that's out of production and was superseded by a newer model quite some time ago with that of the newest flagship model.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: nctnico on August 14, 2019, 08:07:55 pm
Quote
Let's give them time to make things right.

Nearly 5 months are nothing against the 18(!) months I´m waiting for debugging the WS3024(SDS3024)....
Isn't that model fitted with firmware made by Lecroy? AFAIK the WS3000 is produced by Siglent but Lecroy wrote the firmware.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: Martin72 on August 14, 2019, 08:27:03 pm
Quote
Though it's slightly unfair to compare the situation of a scope that's out of production

Yes and no.

The firmware updates concerns both, WS3000 and WS3000Z until today.
I´m in touch with lecroy since january 2018 what the bugs concerns ( There a two real big bugs, known and confirmed).
Last answer was end of july, where they more or less directly told to me, that I shouldn´t have to count on it in the near future.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tautech on August 14, 2019, 08:53:30 pm
I just wonder: it was mentioned multiple times how Siglent's attitude towards fixing bugs and the like had improved. Yet I figure more than two months have passed since the last firmware update and the last available firmware version is still the one that Dave has used in his review (V0.8.2R1). So is there any hope they work on fixing the known issues, improving the FFT etc. or was all this improved customer service thing just wishful thinking after all?
There's a heap of work going on behind the scenes, beta FW is now V0.8.5....... and more features and capability are being added all the time.

Now I have SDS5054X I'm watching FW developments when I get the time.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: Performa01 on August 15, 2019, 06:36:41 am
How long did you have to wait for a FW-Update for - let's say - the new R&S DSOs?

Siglent usually releases a new FW every 6 months (as long as there are no serious bugs).

The V0.8.2R1 firmware has been created back in early April this year - less than 4.5 months ago.

Current beta FW is V0.8.5R2 and most of the criticisms Dave voiced in his review have been addressed already. That's on top of all the fixes, improvements and new features from the original roadmap. This version would cetainly be good enough to be released, but evil beta testers keep criticising certain implementation details that affect the user interface.

For instance, the previous beta FW V0.8.4R4 introduced a bunch of additional measurements, which makes it pointless (if not impossible) to keep the current "all measurements" function, because there are now just too many items. Instead we get a configurable overview, but beta testers found its operation a bit confusing for the user, so requested an UI change, which has already been implemented in the V0.8.5R2 FW. Siglent obviously doesn't want to confuse users by frequent UI changes but only present them a final version that has been approved by all beta testers.

In case of the Bode Plot II and the improved FFT, these features even trickled down to the entry level model SDS1004X-E - and the SDS5000X implementation is even nicer - and continues to be improved.

I've always stated that it would take at least another year until the SDS5000X can be reasonably feature complete. You can expect a major step with the next FW release, but there is still more to come...
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: nctnico on August 15, 2019, 07:16:38 am
How long did you have to wait for a FW-Update for - let's say - the new R&S DSOs?
But these wheren't released with firmware in a beta state so this is not a good comparison.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: 2N3055 on August 15, 2019, 08:30:08 am
How long did you have to wait for a FW-Update for - let's say - the new R&S DSOs?
But these wheren't released with firmware in a beta state so this is not a good comparison.
Respectfuly Nico, they were pretty much released in beta state. RTB 2000 had bugs in basic display of waveforms, had 4 operations math, etc etc.
3000 series was better, because it built od 2000 codebase..
We had this discussion before. R&S scopes nowadays are not a good example of bug free product release..
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on August 15, 2019, 08:48:48 pm
Might be a weird question but does anybody know what's the frequency and Vss on the calibration output? 1kHz and 1V or something different?
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tautech on August 15, 2019, 09:06:47 pm
Might be a weird question but does anybody know what's the frequency and Vss on the calibration output? 1kHz and 1V or something different?
1 KHz 3V
Probes have rubber plugged 2 trimmer HF adjustments too but you need a 1 MHz square wave to do the HF adjustment. Probe datasheet has the spec and process to do the HF adjustments.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on August 15, 2019, 09:08:04 pm
Great, thanks.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tautech on August 15, 2019, 09:17:50 pm
Great, thanks.
Probe specs from reply #229
https://siglentna.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/SP3025A_3050A_Users_Guide.pdf
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tautech on September 04, 2019, 01:28:39 am
Screenshot showing the recently added Power Analysis in beta FW 8.7**

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/at-last-siglent_s-sds5054x-touchscreen/?action=dlattach;attach=826617)
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: randomOracle on September 15, 2019, 05:42:14 pm
Hi everyone,

I'm a new owner of an SDS5104X. First impression is great, however, my primary reason to buy it was the 10 MHz Ref In/Out connector.
Unfortunately, I'm not able to confirm whether or not the synchronization with an SDG2042X works.

In general, there should be two options:
1) sync the scope to the AWG (AWG provides 10 MHz out)
2) sync the AWG to the scope (scope provides 10 MHz out)

For 1) the procedure is rather straight forward:
leaving the 10 MHz ref unconnected, set the scope clock source from internal to external -- there is no warning whatsoever that there is no clock; it continues to operate as if nothing happened; then I connect the 10 MHz from the AWG -- again, there is no notification that now a clock is available.
For 2) the procedure feels wrong:
as default, both AWG and scope use the 10 MHz connector as output, so connecting the two results in both instruments driving the outputs against each other (could this cause damage?). however, only then it is possible to set the clock to external on the AWG since if no external clock is detected, it automatically reverts back to internal; so for a very brief period of time, there is no way to avoid that both outputs are driving against each other.

Is there an easy check to confirm that the scope is successfully synced to the AWG? Right now, I doubt the 10 MHz is working properly. Any help is greatly appreciated.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tautech on September 15, 2019, 08:11:25 pm
There has been a change in the clock Ref scheme for SDG2000X in very recent firmware and I suggest you install it.
Particularly these from the change notes:
5. Added an icon to indicate clock source is internal or external.
Internal: External: External and the clock is lost:
6. Changed the clock switch strategy: When the clock source is set to External and no actual external clock signal is being received, the clock source will not switch to Internal automatically but the clock icon will indicate that external clock is lost

Also SDG5000X beta firmware versions are now much progressed from that in units released to the marketplace and we hope for a public release soon.
I have this beta firmware so I can check for this issue you report but only with the lesser SDG1032X but it has the new clock scheme also.

Can you confirm you are using V0.8.2R1 firmware in SDS5000X ?

Here is the link to SDG2000X firmware:
https://www.siglenteu.com/service-and-support/firmware-software/waveform-generators/#sdg2000x-series (https://www.siglenteu.com/service-and-support/firmware-software/waveform-generators/#sdg2000x-series)
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: nctnico on September 15, 2019, 08:56:57 pm
Still I'm wondering why you'd want to synchronise an oscilloscope with a reference clock. Every measurement is related to the trigger point anyway and with a trigger jitter of 100ps for the SDS5000X you lose any advantage of having an external clock anyway. For comparison: the good old Agilent 54845A has a trigger jitter of 8ps but it doesn't have an external clock input.

Actually... while studying the specs more closely I notice the 1GHz version has a shortest time/div setting of 200ps/div. But if the trigger jitter is 100ps then the signal would jump left/right for half a division.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tautech on September 15, 2019, 09:06:37 pm
Clock source indication is provided by the arrow in the circle in the bottom right symbol above the time.
Arrow pointing inward indicates an external Ref clock while arrow pointing out indicates the internal clock.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/at-last-siglent_s-sds5054x-touchscreen/?action=dlattach;attach=836331)
This from beta FW FW 0.8.7***
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: randomOracle on September 15, 2019, 09:09:25 pm
There has been a change in the clock Ref scheme for SDG2000X in very recent firmware and I suggest you install it. [...]

VERY nice!! Thank you for this great advice! Now it is actually usable! Indeed, once the clock is set to external on the AWG and the scope is turned on, the icon changes.


Also SDG5000X beta firmware versions are now much progressed from that in units released to the marketplace and we hope for a public release soon.
I have this beta firmware so I can check for this issue you report but only with the lesser SDG1032X but it has the new clock scheme also.

Can you confirm you are using V0.8.2R1 firmware in SDS5000X ?

I can confirm I have 0.8.2R1 in the SDS5000X. Looking forward to the new firmware!

Clock source indication is provided by the arrow in the circle in the bottom right symbol above the time.
Arrow pointing inward indicates an external Ref clock while arrow pointing out indicates the internal clock.

Yes, but it shows the arrow even if there is no external clock; at least with my firmware version (there is not X whatsoever to indicate that the external clock could not be detected).

BTW, do you also happen to know a good compatible high-speed differential probe for the SDS5000X? (specs could/should be similar to the LeCroy AP033 which is 500 MHz, 5V CMVR, 50 ohms terminated, input capacitance is low).
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tautech on September 15, 2019, 09:25:46 pm
BTW, do you also happen to know a good compatible high-speed differential probe for the SDS5000X? (specs could/should be similar to the LeCroy AP033 which is 500 MHz, 5V CMVR, 50 ohms terminated, input capacitance is low).
Sorry I don't as Siglent's offerings of differential probes are abismall for use with a scope like the 5kX.  :(

I expect they are working on something but I don't know for sure however this is a very good question and I've endeavour to find out something later today when the factory is on deck.
Meanwhile I'll check if the SAP1000 active probe offers differential operation or if the ref connection is BNC ground referenced.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: 2N3055 on September 15, 2019, 09:30:42 pm
BTW, do you also happen to know a good compatible high-speed differential probe for the SDS5000X? (specs could/should be similar to the LeCroy AP033 which is 500 MHz, 5V CMVR, 50 ohms terminated, input capacitance is low).
Sorry I don't as Siglent's offerings of differential probes are abismall for use with a scope like the 5kX.  :(

I expect they are working on something but I don't know for sure however this is a very good question and I've endeavour to find out something later today when the factory is on deck.
Meanwhile I'll check if the SAP1000 active probe offers differential operation or if the ref connection is BNC ground referenced.

It is classic single ended active probe. It is ground referenced.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tautech on September 15, 2019, 09:32:34 pm
BTW, do you also happen to know a good compatible high-speed differential probe for the SDS5000X? (specs could/should be similar to the LeCroy AP033 which is 500 MHz, 5V CMVR, 50 ohms terminated, input capacitance is low).
Sorry I don't as Siglent's offerings of differential probes are abismall for use with a scope like the 5kX.  :(

I expect they are working on something but I don't know for sure however this is a very good question and I've endeavour to find out something later today when the factory is on deck.
Meanwhile I'll check if the SAP1000 active probe offers differential operation or if the ref connection is BNC ground referenced.

It is classic single ended active probe. It is ground referenced.
OK, thanks. Saved me getting mine out.  :)
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tautech on September 16, 2019, 01:29:02 am
BTW, do you also happen to know a good compatible high-speed differential probe for the SDS5000X? (specs could/should be similar to the LeCroy AP033 which is 500 MHz, 5V CMVR, 50 ohms terminated, input capacitance is low).
Sorry I don't as Siglent's offerings of differential probes are abismall for use with a scope like the 5kX.  :(

I expect they are working on something but I don't know for sure however this is a very good question and I've endeavour to find out something later today when the factory is on deck.
Meanwhile I'll check if the SAP1000 active probe offers differential operation or if the ref connection is BNC ground referenced.
Quick reply from the factory just minutes after they opened today.  :)

We are developing the probe adapters to adapt LeCroy Probus probes and Tek probes (with TekProbe interface). The one for LeCroy will be available by the end of  this year, and the one for Tek will be available in Q1, 2020.

High BW Differential probes are coming but sometime later so these adapters are the interim solution.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: 2N3055 on September 16, 2019, 06:21:49 am
BTW, do you also happen to know a good compatible high-speed differential probe for the SDS5000X? (specs could/should be similar to the LeCroy AP033 which is 500 MHz, 5V CMVR, 50 ohms terminated, input capacitance is low).
Sorry I don't as Siglent's offerings of differential probes are abismall for use with a scope like the 5kX.  :(

I expect they are working on something but I don't know for sure however this is a very good question and I've endeavour to find out something later today when the factory is on deck.
Meanwhile I'll check if the SAP1000 active probe offers differential operation or if the ref connection is BNC ground referenced.
Quick reply from the factory just minutes after they opened today.  :)

We are developing the probe adapters to adapt LeCroy Probus probes and Tek probes (with TekProbe interface). The one for LeCroy will be available by the end of  this year, and the one for Tek will be available in Q1, 2020.

High BW Differential probes are coming but sometime later so these adapters are the interim solution.

I think those adapters are great solution (if they don't get crazy with the price). Used Lecroy probes sometimes can be had for a good price, and Tektronix has some very fine and quite special probes.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: Performa01 on October 05, 2019, 03:55:57 am
I took an interesting (but slightly off-topic) discussion about trigger jitter here from another thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/500-mhz-4-channel-oscilloscope-recommendation-mso8000-any-good/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/500-mhz-4-channel-oscilloscope-recommendation-mso8000-any-good/)

Here you go.

100 KHz 5ns pulse with 2ns risetime, fastest I have from a SDG6022X. Siglent 1 GHz rated BNC cable.
NO clock syncing, just 2 standalone instruments.

Dots and Infinite persistence.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/500-mhz-4-channel-oscilloscope-recommendation-mso8000-any-good/?action=dlattach;attach=846584)
It is quite obvious that there is no visible jitter for a digital trigger system with properly implemented trigger point interpolator and the screenshot with infinite persistence shows just that.

I don't think the 100ps jitter specification is really meaningful, since I've yet to come across a case where jitter becomes actually visible, even at 200ps/div. This is clearly some worst case specification "by design" and it's a peak value and not RMS on top of that.
I have given this some thought and I think there is something odd going on here. Look at how the signal converges into a single line near the trigger threshold an then smears out. The image would suggest that the trigger jitter is zero but this can't be true because above and below the trigger point the signal starts to smear horizontally. I have not seen a similar effect on other oscilloscopes. On those I see a signal which keeps about the same width from 20% to 80% of the rise time.
For example:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=212638.0;attach=848526;image)

I think Siglent's trigger interpolator takes a very small part of the signal and uses that to place it at the trigger point which creates a somewhat distorted image. It is even possible the trace smears out more horizontally than when using a larger part of the signal.

The spotted problem (if you can call this minor effect a problem at all) is just noise. We should distinguish between trigger jitter introduced by noise in the signal path and the signal itself (which is just inevitable) and jitter caused by the trigger signal processing (the trigger detector and interpolator).

Yes, it seems like the trigger interpolator on the Siglent strictly eliminates any noise at the trigger point, so that noise becomes all the more noticeable with increasing distance. We see a similar effect in the RTM3000 screenshot, just not as pronounced and at the expense of an overall noisy transition and a less precisely defined trigger point.

In any case, the SDS5000X can yield much nicer results as soon as we get rid of the noise, as can easily be demonstrated with a proper setup.

The following screenshot demonstrates two facts at the same time:
1.   Minimal jitter at the trigger point and very little noise
2.   Minimal jitter between channels, even when they do not share the same ADC

250MHz square wave, fed into channels 2 and 4 in parallel through wideband (12.4GHz) power splitter. Since the signal path lengths between splitter and DSO inputs cannot be exactly the same – they appear to differ by about half a millimeter – there is some inevitable skew between the two channels (which is quite welcome here).

•   Dots display mode to make absolutely sure we get the true signal shape (even though it doesn’t make any difference in this case)
•   16x averaging in order to get rid of the noise
•   Infinite persistence recording for 3 minutes to catch any jitter effects.

[attachimg=1]
SDS5104X Pulse 250MHz Avg16 Skew Pers3m

With a picture like that, at 200ps/div, I think we can safely state that there is no visible jitter.

Now let’s have a look at the automatic measurements. The T@M measurement tells us the distance of the nearest rising edge from the trigger point. According to this, we have an error of -10ps for the trigger channel 4 and a pk-pk jitter of 23ps for the measurement data. The standard deviation of 7.25ps is equivalent to the RMS jitter.

Surprisingly, the non-triggered channel 2 yields a very similar pk-pk jitter of 22.7ps, but a lower standard deviation (= RMS jitter) of just 5.86ps.

As can be seen, the channel to channel skew has a peak to peak variation of 40ps with a standard deviation of 8ps which is only slightly worse than the trigger jitter itself. The mean value differs by 8ps (22 instead of 30) which is probably because the channel skew has been measured in the main (not zoom) window, where the timebase is 10 times longer and time resolution for interpolated sub sample periods gets worse.

In general it appears a bit difficult to deal with single digit picosecond values in a scope that has a 200ps sample interval.

Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: 2N3055 on October 05, 2019, 10:55:48 am
I just wanted to make a note that Tautech's image shows that effect because of him using SDG6000X for signal source in pulse mode. What you see is SDG6000X undulation problem.
I see absolutely same image on my Kesight, if using pulse mode on SDG6000X.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: Performa01 on October 05, 2019, 12:06:35 pm
I’m not sure if this really is the “undulation” of the SDG6000X, because this effect used to be much stronger than what we see here in Tautech’s screenshot.

I can show a similar measurement as before, but this time with the SDG6052X, hence only 150MHz and much slower edges (1ns).

150MHz square wave, fed into channels 2 and 4 in parallel out of the two channels of the SDG6052X in tracking mode. Of course we have again some skew between channels, if only because of slightly different cable lengths.

•   Dots display mode
•   16x averaging in order to get rid of the noise
•   Infinite persistence recording for 10 minutes to catch any jitter and noise effects.

[attachimg=1]
SDS5104X Pulse 150MHz Avg16 Skew Pers10m

At 200ps/div, the visible jitter is still pretty much negligible.

Let’s have a look at the automatic measurements again. We now have an error of 8.8ps for the trigger channel 4 and a pk-pk jitter of only 10.4ps for the measurement data! This proves that the SDG6000X is actually a lot better in terms of noise and jitter than the pulse source used for the previous test. I’m really glad that 2N3055 motivated me to repeat this test with the SDG6052X, because the standard deviation (aka RMS jitter) of <1.43ps is fantastic and with this we should be able to compete with the big boys ;)

The non-triggered channel 2 yields a slightly higher pk-pk jitter of 14.5ps, and the standard deviation is 2.26ps.

The channel to channel skew measurement has a high peak to peak variation of 275ps with a standard deviation of 35.3ps which is nothing to write home about, but can certainly be attributed to the slow edges of the SDG6052X. The mean value differs by 17.5ps (-131ps instead of 148.5ps) which once again might have to do with the measurement in the main (not zoom) window.

This is a beta firmware. Skew measurement is not possible within the zoom window and other than e.g. period measurements the channel delay measurements are not optimized for high resolution – but I will suggest this of course.

Anyway, a stable trigger point and channel skew (if measured with the T@M function) can be achieved with the SDG6052X despite its slow transition times. The measured rms trigger jitter of <1.5ps is certainly nothing to worry about. I think the true positive surprise is the fact that the SDS5000X trigger system is so good even when transitions are slow compared to the timebase.

Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: nctnico on October 05, 2019, 02:08:17 pm
Averaging won't do you much good either because you'll be throwing away both the trigger jitter and the signal jitter. If the oscilloscope's trigger jitter is shown uniform (thus without narrowing) it is easier to determine the reference signal's jitter versus a second signal. Another option would be to delay the trigger enough to show the next period but that may add extra uncertainties from the oscillosope's oscillator (think about looking at 1PPS signals which have a 1 second interval).

A clear indication something is wrong with the measurement above is that the SDG6052X seemingly behaves much better than specified. A DDS based function generator with such low jitter is way more expensive -I'm not aware that such a device even exists-. So there must be something wrong with the test setup. I did a quick test with an SDG1010. I fed a 10MHz reference signal from a GPSDO into the SDG1010 and used this reference signal to trigger on. The SDG1010 produces a 10MHz square wave. Channel 2=reference signal, channel 3 is output from SDG1010.
Without averaging:
[attachimg=2]

With 100x averaging:
[attachimg=1]

With averaging the result suddenly looks better but that is only because information has been thrown away.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: Performa01 on October 05, 2019, 03:44:38 pm
Ah well, I saw this coming...

To really appreciate what’s going on, I’d like to recapitulate how a modern fully digital trigger system works. It is a completely separate processing chain, fed with the sample data stream of the trigger channel. This trigger system doesn’t care about the other channels and whether they are in use or not. Consequently, on the SDS5000X this data stream is always 2.5GSa/s with a 400ps sample interval. This makes it all the more remarkable when accuracy and stability down to single digit picoseconds can be obtained. Furthermore, the channel interleaving as well as the various decimation algorithms (normal, peak detect, average, Eres) are applied to the data channel exclusively at a later stage and do not affect the trigger path in any way.

Of course the objection that averaging also irons out some of the trigger jitter is valid, so I decided to setup one final test, using a highly stable sine wave instead of a pulse. This way we get rid of all the uncertainties with regard to the signal source and quality – and we get faster transitions too (at high frequencies).

Here is the same measurement as for the first test, but in normal acquisition mode, without averaging. Since I’ve already put away the original setup, skew is not exactly the same as in the first test.

1GHz sine wave, fed into channels 2 and 4 in parallel through 12.4GHz wideband power splitter. Some minor skew between channels because of subtle signal path length differences.

•   Dots display mode
•   Infinite persistence recording for >10 minutes to catch any jitter and noise effects.

[attachimg=2]
SDS5104X Sine 1GHz Norm Skew Pers10m NR

At 200ps/div, the visible jitter is still pretty much insignificant.

Let’s have a look at the automatic measurements again. We now have an error of 600fs for the trigger channel 4 and just 7ps pk-pk jitter for the measurement data. The standard deviation (RMS jitter) is <1.23ps.

The non-triggered channel 2 has a significantly higher pk-pk jitter of 15ps now, RMS jitter is <2.12ps.

As can be seen, the channel to channel skew is finally accurate now at some 15ps. The peak to peak variation of 18ps with a standard deviation of 2.4ps meets the expectation.

A very pleasing result in my book.

Yes, the trigger interpolator does a rigorous job and reduces noise and jitter to zero at the trigger point, but we can take the peak to peak jitter of channel 2 as a measure for the maximum trace width at 45° slope, and that’s only 15ps. If I interpret nctnico's screenshot correctly, then there the trace width is uniformly more than 100ps – but that might just be because of a poor quality signal source.

For comparison, here’s the 150MHz pulse from the SDG6052X again, no averaging, infinite persistence for more than 5 minutes.

[attachimg=1]
SDS5104X Pulse 150MHz Norm Skew Pers5m NR

Automatic measurements indicate the following:
-21ps Trigger time error, 18.5ps pk-pk and 2.6ps RMS jitter for the trigger channel 4.
-2.84ps Trigger time, 37.4ps pk-pk and 4.6ps RMS jitter for the independent channel 2.
Channel skew 18.2ps (almost spot on), 39ps pk-pk and 5.25ps RMS jitter between channels.

Even though the jitter values are much higher now, trace width at 45° slope is <38ps, which is more than twice as much than with a high quality sine source, but still a far cry from 100ps.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: nctnico on October 05, 2019, 05:47:43 pm
Even though the jitter values are much higher now, trace width at 45° slope is <38ps, which is more than twice as much than with a high quality sine source, but still a far cry from 100ps.
Still Siglent specifies the trigger jitter is less than 100ps. It would be interesting to know how they came up with this number. Perhaps it is specified at the lowest amplitude it can trigger on. A signal with a faster rise time allows for less hysteresis in the comparator so the results can vary. Either way you have to be careful with assuming a piece of equipment working better than specified.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: 2N3055 on October 05, 2019, 10:05:23 pm
I don't have super clean low phase noise source here, but some time ago  I discovered that Rigol DG1000Z 10MHz out is quite clean with nice clean edges.
So I fed that to SDG6000X ref in and CH1 of scope and I'm triggering from that. On CH3 SDG6000X output 10MHz, pulse, 50% DutyCycle, 1,3 ns edges. Signals were set a bit apart to be able too see cleanly both edges.

MSOX3104T fastest timebase is 500 ps/div. It doesn't have trigger jitter specification in datasheet. If anybody knows it, I would like to know.

Measuring time between channels, there is 20 ps RMS (stdev) of time variation between signals (jitter). That is combined AWG clock to synthesised signal jitter  + scope trigger jitter...
Persistence is set to infinite.

Second image, 10MHz source directly to ch 1 and 3. Scope alone measures 16,5 ps jitter RMS...

So yes, SDG6000X is, at these settings , definitely better than 100 ps RMS jitter. And SDS5000X has less trigger jitter than MSOX3000T in this case..
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: nctnico on October 05, 2019, 10:25:54 pm
The standard deviation is not RMS! These are calculated differently. Also you should look at the minimum and maximum values to get the worst case values. The standard deviation for noise is typically low because there isn't really any distribution.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: Performa01 on October 06, 2019, 07:56:24 am
Even though the jitter values are much higher now, trace width at 45° slope is <38ps, which is more than twice as much than with a high quality sine source, but still a far cry from 100ps.
Still Siglent specifies the trigger jitter is less than 100ps. It would be interesting to know how they came up with this number. Perhaps it is specified at the lowest amplitude it can trigger on. A signal with a faster rise time allows for less hysteresis in the comparator so the results can vary. Either way you have to be careful with assuming a piece of equipment working better than specified.
As already stated, I believe this number comes from some theoretical worst case analysis, which might have no practical relevance or maybe even incorrect. Then there’s the fact that other manufacturers specify the trigger jitter as a typical RMS value, which is very different to just a worst case number. I’ll have to discuss this topic with Siglent R&D.

Other than that, I haven’t picked a sweet spot scenario. After several tests I’m not afraid to state that my published results will typically be valid for at least the entire vertical gain range from 10mV/div up to 10V/div.

For the higher sensitivities, noise might introduce additional jitter, so I’ll publish an additional test later in this posting.

Of course, we can always get arbitrarily bad results for jitter if we have a signal with slow transitions and/or signal amplitudes that are less than 50% of the screen height. In the first case it would be unjustified expectations, whereas the second one would fall under the category “user error”. No manufacturer can guarantee any specification if the product is used the wrong way. There is a reason why some datasheets specify a minimum frequency or maximum transition time as condition for certain specifications to be valid.

So at the end of the day, it is completely irrelevant if some theoretical setup might actually give a peak jitter of up to 100ps, because it’s no practical use case and you can certainly find such scenarios in every DSO, no matter what brand or price tag. For all practical use cases, the SDS5000X has proven its trigger system needs not hide behind the A-brand competition.

Now let’s have a look at the real worst case scenario. That’s 2.5mV/div – the highest sensitivity where the full 1GHz bandwidth is available. The increased noise will certainly yield more trigger jitter.

1GHz sine wave, fed into channels 2 and 4 in parallel through 12.4GHz wideband power splitter. Some minor skew between channels because of subtle signal path length differences.

•   Dots display mode
•   Infinite persistence recording for >15 hours(!) to catch any jitter and noise effects.

[attachimg=1]
SDS5104X Sine 1GHz 2.5mV Norm Skew Pers15h NR

Automatic measurements indicate the following:
5.1ps Trigger time error, 20.9ps peak-peak and 2ps RMS jitter for the trigger channel 4.
24.6ps Trigger time, 45.5ps peak-peak and 4.7ps RMS jitter for the independent channel 2.
Channel skew 18.3ps, 46ps peak-peak and 4.8ps RMS jitter between channels.

The persistent picture on the screen confirms the measurements.

When looking at the peak to peak deviations, we should keep the long observation period of 15 hours in mind.
2ps RMS trigger jitter under these conditions is certainly nothing to complain about and the same is certainly true for just 21ps peak-peak deviation.

Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: Performa01 on October 06, 2019, 08:00:42 am
The standard deviation is not RMS! These are calculated differently. Also you should look at the minimum and maximum values to get the worst case values. The standard deviation for noise is typically low because there isn't really any distribution.

Hopefully we need not start discussing the basics here again…

From that other thread, that I linked in reply #333, we could learn that not many DSOs actually specify the trigger jitter. If they do, it’s usually as “RMS (typical)”.

The difference between standard deviation and root mean square is that the latter contains a constant (time invariable) term.
•   In case of noise measurements, it’s the DC offset, which certainly is noise at 0Hz, but we are not interested in it because it can be easily compensated or corrected by simple math. So we use standard deviation for noise measurements.
•   In case of jitter measurements, it’s the constant time shift (error), which again can easily be corrected by simple math since it’s just a constant.

There is a reason why RMS (often without the time invariable constant term, as in our cases here) is used instead of peak to peak deviations in statistics. Peak to peak deviation heavily depends on the sample size (number of samples) which in turn is proportional to the observation time. There is a close relation of this topic to the (in)famous 1/f noise.

The peak deviation might matter in some practical cases, but for most applications RMS or standard deviation are way more useful. At the very least, they are the only valid ones for any sorts of comparisons. For the peak to peak deviation, the final value is proportional to the amount of data (which in turn depends on many factors, including observation time), whereas the RMS value is independent, hence fairly constant, but gets more and more accurate with increasing amount of data.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: nctnico on October 06, 2019, 11:14:13 am
The standard deviation is not RMS! These are calculated differently. Also you should look at the minimum and maximum values to get the worst case values. The standard deviation for noise is typically low because there isn't really any distribution.

Hopefully we need not start discussing the basics here again…

From that other thread, that I linked in reply #333, we could learn that not many DSOs actually specify the trigger jitter. If they do, it’s usually as “RMS (typical)”.

The difference between standard deviation and root mean square is that the latter contains a constant (time invariable) term.
•   In case of noise measurements, it’s the DC offset, which certainly is noise at 0Hz, but we are not interested in it because it can be easily compensated or corrected by simple math. So we use standard deviation for noise measurements.
•   In case of jitter measurements, it’s the constant time shift (error), which again can easily be corrected by simple math since it’s just a constant.
Yes you are right. My mistake. But still using RMS as a number to specify something which is noise starts to smell like using a number which is much nicer than the reality. The peak value of noise seems to be 6 to 8 times of the RMS value so that leaves a rather larg margin of uncertainty.
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: rf-loop on October 06, 2019, 11:42:57 am
The standard deviation is not RMS! These are calculated differently. Also you should look at the minimum and maximum values to get the worst case values. The standard deviation for noise is typically low because there isn't really any distribution.

Hopefully we need not start discussing the basics here again…

From that other thread, that I linked in reply #333, we could learn that not many DSOs actually specify the trigger jitter. If they do, it’s usually as “RMS (typical)”.



The difference between standard deviation and root mean square is that the latter contains a constant (time invariable) term.
•   In case of noise measurements, it’s the DC offset, which certainly is noise at 0Hz, but we are not interested in it because it can be easily compensated or corrected by simple math. So we use standard deviation for noise measurements.
•   In case of jitter measurements, it’s the constant time shift (error), which again can easily be corrected by simple math since it’s just a constant.
Yes you are right. My mistake. But still using RMS as a number to specify something which is noise starts to smell like using a number which is much nicer than the reality. The peak value of noise seems to be 6 to 8 times of the RMS value so that leaves a rather larg margin of uncertainty.

This everyone's known basic fundamentals are quite well and shortly stated here https://www.analog.com/media/en/training-seminars/tutorials/MT-048.pdf (https://www.analog.com/media/en/training-seminars/tutorials/MT-048.pdf)  in page 5/6
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tautech on October 11, 2019, 07:05:16 am
New firmware for SDS5000X models.
New functionality added plus enhancements and fixes etc.

Version 0.8.7R1B1
42 MB
https://int.siglent.com/upload_file/zip/firmware/Oscilloscope/SDS5000X_0.8.7R1B1_EN.zip

Release notes
1. Supported Power Analysis (optional) (Analysis | Power Analysis)
2. Supported Bode Plot (Analysis | Bode Plot)
3. Supported Totalizer (Analysis | Counter). Frequency and period parameters are moved from DVM to Counter
4. Supported 2 math traces and formula editor
5. Optimized FFT
 a) Optimized menu structure
 b) Supported peak and marker (Math | FFT | Tools)
 c) Supported setting max points (Math | FFT | Config)
6. Measurement enhanced
 a) Optimized the UI. In the “Basic” tab the items can be customized (long pressing an item to add to or delete from Basic tab)
 b) Added items: Median, Cycle median, -Bwidth, Time@max, Time@min, 20-80%Rise, 80-20%Fall, +Area, -Area, Area, AbsArea, Cycles, Rising Edges, Falling Edges, Edges, PPulses, Npulses
 c) Supported statistics on maximum 12 parameters at the same time (M2);
 d) Optimized measurement accuracy of Rise/fall
 e) Supported Trend Plot of measurement items
7. Optimized UX of knobs
8. Set the default function of the universal knob as adjusting the trace intensity
9. Optimized SPO display
10. Supported moving the location of the decode buses vertically
11. Supported single step back or forward in Navigator
12. Added bandwidth limit indicator below 2.45mV/div (1GHz, 500MHz)/1mV/div(350MHz
13. Supported Zone trigger in Sequence mode
14. Added entry for Zone trigger in the right side trigger menu
15. Mask Test: Supported failed history (Mask Test | Failure to History)
16. Increased frequency setting digits of the AWG from 3 to 7
17. After gesture control of the vertical gain, the V/div knob still is in the mode that has been used before with the gesture controls.
18. UART/LIN decode/trigger: supported baud rate > 5Mb/s
19. Reference position: Added user defined delay
20. Optimized UI in Zoom mode
21. Deleted the SCPI command which can start Telnet
22. Supported tapping on zone/histogram region to open the corresponding menu
23. Fixed several bugs
Title: Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
Post by: tv84 on October 11, 2019, 08:52:23 am
New options?