Author Topic: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...  (Read 22874 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline peteb2

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 160
  • Country: nz
At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« on: March 15, 2018, 06:16:22 pm »
or a bit of You Tube of it at least..

:)
« Last Edit: March 15, 2018, 06:18:27 pm by peteb2 »
 
The following users thanked this post: rsjsouza, thm_w, tautech

Online tautech

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 15977
  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. NZ Siglent Distributor
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2018, 07:59:21 pm »
Great work finding this Pete.  :-+
This 500 MHz unit will be a mid BW model in this new SDS5000X range I strongly suspect.

WRT comments on AWG, Siglent may be choosing to use the external SAG1021 module as they do for the SDS10004X-E series. That unit is USB powered and controlled in the scope UI.
https://www.siglentamerica.com/accessory/sag1021/

The front panel rectangular socket looks identical to that on the SDS2kX models and it's the MSO/LA pod receptacle.
The SDS2kX uses SPL2016 LA HW:
https://siglentna-qwavztc8hvq2w.stackpathdns.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/PARTS-LIST_SPL2016.pdf

The vid maker obviously isn't aware of Siglent's longstanding participation with LeCroy and their joint venture of the WS/SDS3000 series that each have rights for in Western/Eastern markets respectively.
These 3000 models have been around for some years now and offered BW's to 1GHz.

Release info:
https://www.siglentamerica.com/digital-oscilloscopes/sds5000x/
« Last Edit: March 20, 2019, 10:43:17 pm by tautech »
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 

Offline JPortici

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2560
  • Country: it
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2018, 08:12:36 pm »
they either learned a lot from lecroy or this is going to be a rebadged by lecroy as well.
perhaps with adequate horsepower for today ::)

look at the probus-style BNCs and the user interface!

genuinely curious :)
« Last Edit: March 15, 2018, 08:23:42 pm by JPortici »
 

Online tautech

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 15977
  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. NZ Siglent Distributor
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2018, 08:21:01 pm »
they either learned a lot from lecroy or this is going to be a rebadge as well.
Sorry for your misunderstanding but no Siglents are rebadges !
They make all their own HW !

These SDS5kX models have been under development for at least a couple of years that I'm aware of.  :-X
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 

Offline JPortici

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2560
  • Country: it
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2018, 08:22:42 pm »
Sorry for your misunderstanding but no Siglents are rebadges !

aah i meant it the other way around!!! that maybe lecroy's going to rebadge it!

These SDS5kX models have been under development for at least a couple of years that I'm aware of.  :-X

And i appreciated what i've seen in this very brief video
« Last Edit: March 15, 2018, 08:26:09 pm by JPortici »
 

Offline nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17630
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2018, 09:01:54 pm »
they either learned a lot from lecroy or this is going to be a rebadged by lecroy as well.
perhaps with adequate horsepower for today ::)

look at the probus-style BNCs and the user interface!
The probe interface looks just like Lecroy's interface so I guess it will say Lecroy on the badge and probably have made-by-Lecroy firmware outside China. Then again the Lecroy version is likely to lack peak-detect so not interested.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online tautech

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 15977
  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. NZ Siglent Distributor
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2018, 01:18:37 am »
they either learned a lot from lecroy or this is going to be a rebadged by lecroy as well.
perhaps with adequate horsepower for today ::)

look at the probus-style BNCs and the user interface!
The probe interface looks just like Lecroy's interface so I guess it will say Lecroy on the badge and probably have made-by-Lecroy firmware outside China. Then again the Lecroy version is likely to lack peak-detect so not interested.
:-//
The vid was from a European trade show, not one in Asia and that indicates it will be a Siglent product for all markets.
Word direct from the factory:
New SDS5000X will have Peak Detect mode !
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 

Offline 2N3055

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2085
  • Country: hr
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2018, 08:18:27 am »
:-//
The vid was from a European trade show, not one in Asia and that indicates it will be a Siglent product for all markets.
Word direct from the factory:
New SDS5000X will have Peak Detect mode !

That is interesting.. I have a confirmation by LeCroy that "refresh of 3000 series" (whatever that means) will be released soon...
Fact that Siglent will release SDS5000X into western markets is interesting.. :popcorn:
 
The following users thanked this post: JPortici

Online tautech

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 15977
  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. NZ Siglent Distributor
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2018, 09:09:54 am »
:-//
The vid was from a European trade show, not one in Asia and that indicates it will be a Siglent product for all markets.
Word direct from the factory:
New SDS5000X will have Peak Detect mode !

That is interesting.. I have a confirmation by LeCroy that "refresh of 3000 series" (whatever that means) will be released soon...
Have a good look through the vid for any sign of a mention of LeCroy in the GUI....there isn't.
Unlike the WS/SDS3000 models.
It's a Siglent product and entirely theirs to market as they wish.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2018, 09:16:55 am by tautech »
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 

Offline 2N3055

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2085
  • Country: hr
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2018, 09:45:52 am »
Have a good look through the vid for any sign of a mention of LeCroy in the GUI....there isn't.
Unlike the WS/SDS3000 models.
It's a Siglent product and entirely theirs to market as they wish.

I didn't say it was... Quite the opposite, i think Siglent pulled "the rigol" on LeCroy...
Anyways, seems like interesting product. I hope price will be right, and that it will be well supported and reasonably bug free..
 
 

Offline TheDefpom

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 272
  • Country: nz
  • YouTuber Nerd
    • The Defpom's Channel
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2018, 08:40:10 am »
The four BNC connectors on the rear interest me, I wonder if they finally added a 10MHz reference input?

Offline simone.pignatti

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 328
  • Country: it
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2018, 06:13:43 pm »
Hello, pics I took at embedded world, the scope will come this year in EU probably immediately before or after the SVA1005X.
It has the same touch screen of the SVA1005X.
it will have most probably 250Mpts of memory, for sure 8bit vertical resolution.
As soon as it will be available in EU we will have it for a test and in stock.
Technical Support
 

Offline simone.pignatti

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 328
  • Country: it
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2018, 06:17:37 pm »
:-//
The vid was from a European trade show, not one in Asia and that indicates it will be a Siglent product for all markets.
Word direct from the factory:
New SDS5000X will have Peak Detect mode !

That is interesting.. I have a confirmation by LeCroy that "refresh of 3000 series" (whatever that means) will be released soon...
Fact that Siglent will release SDS5000X into western markets is interesting.. :popcorn:
Do not expect nothing exciting by the LeCroy WS3000
Technical Support
 

Offline nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17630
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2018, 07:35:09 pm »
Have a good look through the vid for any sign of a mention of LeCroy in the GUI....there isn't.
Unlike the WS/SDS3000 models.
It's a Siglent product and entirely theirs to market as they wish.

I didn't say it was... Quite the opposite, i think Siglent pulled "the rigol" on LeCroy...
Anyways, seems like interesting product. I hope price will be right, and that it will be well supported and reasonably bug free..
The biggest question is: who is going to buy it given Siglent's track record of releasing buggy equipment?
I estimate the price will be in the $2000 to $5000 range (above the SDS2000X series) and in that price bracket the hobbyists are spread thin. Companies will require a product which works right straight out of the box the minute it arrives. Waiting for 2 years for Siglent to fix the bugs is not an option. So I really wonder who is going to buy this scope.

Also it won't help to make the A-brands lower their prices because the A-brands don't seem to consider Siglent as a competitor at any level. Keysight, Tektronix and Rhode & Schwarz compare their products against eachother, GW Instek, Lecroy and Rigol but Siglent is nowhere to be found.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2018, 07:43:02 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline 2N3055

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2085
  • Country: hr
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2018, 08:31:29 pm »
:-//
The vid was from a European trade show, not one in Asia and that indicates it will be a Siglent product for all markets.
Word direct from the factory:
New SDS5000X will have Peak Detect mode !

That is interesting.. I have a confirmation by LeCroy that "refresh of 3000 series" (whatever that means) will be released soon...
Fact that Siglent will release SDS5000X into western markets is interesting.. :popcorn:
Do not expect nothing exciting by the LeCroy WS3000

Sadly, I don't... I don't expect anything really new from Keysight either...
 

Offline TAMHAN

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 397
  • Country: sk
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2018, 05:27:12 pm »
As the guy who committed the crime, I just wanted to report in. Sorry for being so silent, but I am overworked as fuck.
Feel like some additional tamile wisdom? Visit my YouTube channel -> https://www.youtube.com/user/MrTamhan for 10min tid-bits!
 
The following users thanked this post: lem_ix

Online tautech

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 15977
  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. NZ Siglent Distributor
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #16 on: March 20, 2018, 07:17:52 am »
As the guy who committed the crime, I just wanted to report in.
Thanks.  :-+

We all knew very little of SDS5000X models before your vid so thanks for that.
Did you find out the amount of memory depth ?
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 

Offline Mr. Scram

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7899
  • Country: 00
  • Display aficionado
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #17 on: March 20, 2018, 07:22:31 am »
The biggest question is: who is going to buy it given Siglent's track record of releasing buggy equipment?
I estimate the price will be in the $2000 to $5000 range (above the SDS2000X series) and in that price bracket the hobbyists are spread thin. Companies will require a product which works right straight out of the box the minute it arrives. Waiting for 2 years for Siglent to fix the bugs is not an option. So I really wonder who is going to buy this scope.

Also it won't help to make the A-brands lower their prices because the A-brands don't seem to consider Siglent as a competitor at any level. Keysight, Tektronix and Rhode & Schwarz compare their products against eachother, GW Instek, Lecroy and Rigol but Siglent is nowhere to be found.
My current hesitation to buy into Siglent equipment is mostly based on the fact that I don't know what to expect from them, and less on the merits of the actual equipment itself. Support in the long run is everything.
 

Offline simone.pignatti

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 328
  • Country: it
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #18 on: March 20, 2018, 07:38:15 am »
As the guy who committed the crime, I just wanted to report in.
Thanks.  :-+

We all knew very little of SDS5000X models before your vid so thanks for that.
Did you find out the amount of memory depth ?
Hello, it is 250Mpts
Technical Support
 

Online Performa01

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 815
  • Country: at
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2018, 04:25:18 pm »
I think it’s quite obvious what this is going to be: an SDS2kX combined with the new system architecture and additional user interface elements of the SDS1204X-E plus some further improvements like the 10.1” capacitive touch screen, enhanced probe interface, reference clock in/out and external monitor support.

Compared to a SDS1204X-E the SDS5kX has 5 times the sample rate, thus enabling 5 times the bandwidth for the top model and it has almost 18 times the sample memory, hence can capture up to 50ms at max. sample rate.

I guess this is going to be a pretty interesting product once again.
 

Online tautech

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 15977
  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. NZ Siglent Distributor
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #20 on: May 24, 2018, 10:31:26 am »
Info on these new SDS5000X DSO's has just appeared on the Chinese website.
There'll be 2 and 4 channel variants with BW's of 350, 500 MHz and 1 GHz.
MSO capability will be with the SPL2016 16ch probe set used on SDS2000X models.



Rear connectivity:


Looking forward to getting my hands on one.  :)
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 

Offline JPortici

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2560
  • Country: it
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #21 on: May 24, 2018, 10:51:15 am »
So,
ballpark price?
options, beside the usual?
probe interface compatible with probus?
 

Online tautech

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 15977
  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. NZ Siglent Distributor
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #22 on: May 24, 2018, 11:01:46 am »
So,
ballpark price?
options, beside the usual?
probe interface compatible with probus?
As yet we can only guess what western pricing will be but 86,880 Yuan is stated for the 4ch 1GHz model with the 350 MHz 4ch model ~1/2 that.
As I surmised the AWG will be the SAG1021 25 MHz USB module used on the SDS1004X-E models.

Until I sit down and translate it all the rest is unknown excepting what you can wean from the Chinese datasheet:
http://www.siglent.com/Chinese_website2014/Datasheet/SDS5000X_Datasheet_DS0105X_C01A.pdf
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 

Offline Electro Detective

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2096
  • Country: au
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #23 on: May 24, 2018, 11:09:07 am »
The DSO is nice and hopefully a nice price too   :clap: 

but why oh why did they not put the inputs directly below each channel control strip

and shift the USB, CAL and rectangular black thingie to the other side   :-//

At least they didn't do the -shared controls- thing, now THAT would be a b*mmer

All that aside, it looks the business   :-+

 

Online Performa01

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 815
  • Country: at
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #24 on: May 24, 2018, 11:09:38 am »
Siglent's new probe interface is not ProBus (LeCroy).
 

Online tautech

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 15977
  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. NZ Siglent Distributor
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #25 on: May 24, 2018, 11:18:04 am »
The DSO is nice and hopefully a nice price too   :clap: 

but why oh why did they not put the inputs directly below each channel control strip

and shift the USB, CAL and rectangular black thingie to the other side   :-//
Siglent first laid out this format in 2013 when they released SDS2000 now superseded by 2000X.
At that time there was comment exactly the same but until you've used one for a while you notice it doesn't really matter a damn, in fact for most that are right handed it's better to have USB and particularly probe Cal on the right.



My one of these ^ might get upgraded .
« Last Edit: May 24, 2018, 11:23:14 am by tautech »
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 
The following users thanked this post: Electro Detective

Offline JPortici

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2560
  • Country: it
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #26 on: May 24, 2018, 01:01:50 pm »
So,
ballpark price?
options, beside the usual?
probe interface compatible with probus?
As yet we can only guess what western pricing will be but 86,880 Yuan is stated for the 4ch 1GHz model with the 350 MHz 4ch model ~1/2 that.
As I surmised the AWG will be the SAG1021 25 MHz USB module used on the SDS1004X-E models.

Until I sit down and translate it all the rest is unknown excepting what you can wean from the Chinese datasheet:
http://www.siglent.com/Chinese_website2014/Datasheet/SDS5000X_Datasheet_DS0105X_C01A.pdf


Google translate was of help
https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=zh-CN&u=http://www.siglent.com/oscilloscope/SDS5000X

SDS5034X is listed as 42,880, nearly 6k euro
However, only basic functions. same old stuff..

High samplerate, high wfm/s, ton of memory, but same old stuff..
hope it's not all, as the new R&S (RTM and RTA) are also listed at about that price and they have more options and 10 bit ADC

fingers crossed :)
 

Offline bugi

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 250
  • Country: fi
  • Hobbyist using the ultra slow and unsure method
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #27 on: May 24, 2018, 02:26:19 pm »
And hopefully they have managed to get the behavior of rotation knobs usable. The SDS2000X series is absolute horrendous with those (or at least mine is). I haven't tested the latest firmware versions, but last time I checked release notes, there were no indications of fixes for the rotation problems.

Hmm.. now that I rechecked the release notes, still no indication for fixing them, but several other interesting fixes, I guess it is time to update.
 

Online Performa01

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 815
  • Country: at
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #28 on: May 24, 2018, 02:39:11 pm »
High samplerate, high wfm/s, ton of memory, but same old stuff..
hope it's not all, as the new R&S (RTM and RTA) are also listed at about that price and they have more options and 10 bit ADC

10 bits are a valid argument. But what else?

That "same old stuff" is not bad after all, is it? What is missing? What would you like to see in such an instrument?

Anyone who thinks there are essential features missing is welcome to share their thoughts.

Hint: The initial release will indeed be not much more than just the familiar old (and good) stuff - of course without most of the limitations the lower end instruments (SDS1004X-E, SDS2000X-E) suffer from. But there is more to come and we could certainly convince Siglent product management to add even more sensible features to their to-do list.

 

Offline Mr. Scram

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7899
  • Country: 00
  • Display aficionado
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #29 on: May 24, 2018, 02:50:10 pm »
Siglent first laid out this format in 2013 when they released SDS2000 now superseded by 2000X.
At that time there was comment exactly the same but until you've used one for a while you notice it doesn't really matter a damn, in fact for most that are right handed it's better to have USB and particularly probe Cal on the right.



My one of these ^ might get upgraded .
Those squared channel buttons look so much better than those horrible oval ones.
 

Online Performa01

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 815
  • Country: at
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #30 on: May 24, 2018, 02:50:38 pm »
And hopefully they have managed to get the behavior of rotation knobs usable. The SDS2000X series is absolute horrendous with those (or at least mine is). I haven't tested the latest firmware versions, but last time I checked release notes, there were no indications of fixes for the rotation problems.

Hmm.. now that I rechecked the release notes, still no indication for fixing them, but several other interesting fixes, I guess it is time to update.

The release notes usually don't list all fixes and improvements. Many changes due to internal test reports aren't documented this way.

Particularly the rotary encoders are a constant issue, that's also why the numerical input dialog has been introduced at some point. As far as I remember, the behavior of the encoders has changed many times, in fact almost with each update. In my opinion, it is not perfect because it lacks smooth continuous acceleration (it has just a few discrete speed steps), but still usable and certainly much better than it used to be initially. Apart from that, there are many more reasons (=fixes & improvements) to keep the firmware up to date.

 

Offline JPortici

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2560
  • Country: it
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #31 on: May 25, 2018, 05:57:40 am »
That "same old stuff" is not bad after all, is it? What is missing? What would you like to see in such an instrument?

For example, there are more protocols around than UART/SPI/I2C/CAN/LIN.
See the complete app package for the keysight DSO-X 3000.
    -> YES, it's shared with all the megazoom scopes, because same platform, minus the 1k and 2k, because product line separation
    -> YES, old scope with tini tiny memory. Let's avoid the same old :blah: :horse: shall we?

See what R&S is offering as options for the RTA and RTM.. now if some more of the RTA options were ported to the RTM it would be cake, i was told it should happen in the near future. And they are
    -> 10 bit
    -> Touch screen with what seems to be a proper UI (Not saying anything about siglent of course, haven't tried it..)
    -> more options to begin with
    -> better reputation, if you want
    -> around the same price, RTM starts at less, RTA starts at that price
and only drawback i can see
    -> Less memory per channel

Look at what picoscopes give you, they may be "cheating" because many things depend on how powerful your computer is, but they do give them.

if i'm even considering 5K eur so i can only look at a signal and see a blazing fast 500 MHz SPI, i'm going to get a lecroy, at least i get histogram and really advanced math (long functions, math on math on math, math on measurements, display measurement trace and so on).

can we also get histograms and really advanced math? Or even an option for power analysis..
:)

To be honest i was expecting it to be about half the proposed price, given the above. I can't see how it can be justifiable if they want to compete
« Last Edit: May 25, 2018, 06:01:00 am by JPortici »
 

Online tautech

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 15977
  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. NZ Siglent Distributor
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #32 on: May 25, 2018, 08:24:29 am »
As the guy who committed the crime, I just wanted to report in.
Thanks.  :-+

We all knew very little of SDS5000X models before your vid so thanks for that.
Did you find out the amount of memory depth ?
Hello, it is 250Mpts
Actually it's 2x 250 Mpts, 250 Mpts for each of the two 5 GSa/s ADC's.
So will all channels active max sampling rate and memory depth will be 2.5 GSa/s and 125 Mpts/channel.

And from the current datasheet we see 1Mpts FFT.

@JPortici
Who knows what additional features will be suggested by the beta testers and I'm quite sure there'll be plenty, yes the protocols offered can only be considered as basic for a DSO in this class. I've already suggested an advanced protocol suite be offered too. Market support will decide on what additional features can be added in in the future as you only well know it's just a firmware update.
The GUI as shown in the datasheet already looks optimized for touch usage with graphics representing the functions of the icons.
Power analysis option is already offered for SDS2kX so there's no reason why it shouldn't be included in the SDS5kX option list.
Until western market release is imminent there's really no point of bitching about your best guess price as all of ours have been way off in the past based on what we see on the Chinese websites.
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 
The following users thanked this post: JPortici

Offline JPortici

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2560
  • Country: it
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #33 on: May 25, 2018, 09:04:39 am »
@JPortici
Who knows what additional features will be suggested by the beta testers and I'm quite sure there'll be plenty, yes the protocols offered can only be considered as basic for a DSO in this class. I've already suggested an advanced protocol suite be offered too. Market support will decide on what additional features can be added in in the future as you only well know it's just a firmware update.
The GUI as shown in the datasheet already looks optimized for touch usage with graphics representing the functions of the icons.
Power analysis option is already offered for SDS2kX so there's no reason why it shouldn't be included in the SDS5kX option list.
Until western market release is imminent there's really no point of bitching about your best guess price as all of ours have been way off in the past based on what we see on the Chinese websites.

Ah, i agree with you! It's way early to discuss and the only thing we can do is speculate and bitching! I don't think it's wrong to put things in perspective and as siglent has started a possibly good trend in by offering a complete scope, with modern hardware and very decent performance for the price class (1000X-E) i'd love them to continue it :-+
 

Online tautech

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 15977
  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. NZ Siglent Distributor
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #34 on: May 25, 2018, 09:30:46 am »
@JPortici
Who knows what additional features will be suggested by the beta testers and I'm quite sure there'll be plenty, yes the protocols offered can only be considered as basic for a DSO in this class. I've already suggested an advanced protocol suite be offered too. Market support will decide on what additional features can be added in in the future as you only well know it's just a firmware update.
The GUI as shown in the datasheet already looks optimized for touch usage with graphics representing the functions of the icons.
Power analysis option is already offered for SDS2kX so there's no reason why it shouldn't be included in the SDS5kX option list.
Until western market release is imminent there's really no point of bitching about your best guess price as all of ours have been way off in the past based on what we see on the Chinese websites.

Ah, i agree with you! It's way early to discuss and the only thing we can do is speculate and bitching! I don't think it's wrong to put things in perspective and as siglent has started a possibly good trend in by offering a complete scope, with modern hardware and very decent performance for the price class (1000X-E) i'd love them to continue it :-+
:)
I'm sure they will and yes the 4ch X-E capabilities were a surprise to some of us too. Siglent really hit a home run shoehorning all that functionality into a ittsy bittsy wheeny DSO.  Of course it will continue and another thing that sticks out in my mind is the same X-E USB AWG for 5000X models.....surely these will have Bode plot capabilities too.
I've said it before and again now.....interesting times.
BTW, PA is included in the options available: SDS-5000X-PA Power Analysis Options

The active probe is listed as SAP1000 1GHz bandwidth, 10X attenuation, 1Mohm//1.2pF input impedance
Do these specs seem satisfactory ?

What else can we come up with that should be included in/with a modern 1 GHz DSO ?
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 

Online Performa01

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 815
  • Country: at
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #35 on: May 25, 2018, 10:13:01 am »
For example, there are more protocols around than UART/SPI/I2C/CAN/LIN.

As already stated, the initial release might be limited to these, but there will definitely be an advanced protocol decoder package for this scope in the near future. Siglent will probably not just copy any package from the competition but rather listen to some experts who are very experienced with mid-range and high-end scopes and know what is actually useful. They will provide beta tests and consulting for the SDS5k.


    -> 10 bit

Yes, that would be great, but quite obviously isn't going to happen with the SDS5k series, as this is 8 bit dictated by the hardware. I'm sure we would be able to convince Siglent to add high resolution DSOs to their offerings, but for now they will have to get started with the current 8 bit platform.


    -> Touch screen with what seems to be a proper UI (Not saying anything about siglent of course, haven't tried it..)

Well, the UI has been completely redesigned in order to fit the touchscreen. I cannot know yet how successful this has been, and it is certainly not reasonable to expect that it will be as posh as the one from R&S right from the start. However, beta testers will suggest improvements where appropriate for sure and after the initial release, reasonable suggestions from users will certainly be considered as well.


    -> more options to begin with

That's just too unspecific. More options in itself is not an option ;)


    -> better reputation, if you want

Well, Siglent certainly cannot design "reputation" into their new product. But just recently I got the confirmation from upper management, that they agree with me to give high priority to open, honest communication as well as listening to customer needs. The SDS1004X-E series has already been a good example as my attempts to improve that platform have been honored by accepting the majority of my suggestions (if at all possible with the existing hardware, that is). I have no doubt that it will be the same for the SDS5k series, where I'm not aware of any hardware limitations other than the 8 bits.


    -> around the same price, RTM starts at less, RTA starts at that price

We don't know the price point yet.


Look at what picoscopes give you, they may be "cheating" because many things depend on how powerful your computer is, but they do give them.

Yes, PicoScope software provides many mid-range and even some high-end features. Rest assured that this will be my personal benchmark for certain areas.


can we also get histograms and really advanced math? Or even an option for power analysis..

  • Power Analysis already exists (SDS2kX for now). Even though I did not have time to test it, it looks very comprehensive.
  • Advanced math (with math on math) is most definitely coming. There will also be a filter package.
  • Not sure about histograms, but we will certainly suggest it if Siglent don't have it on their list already.


EDIT: Ah yes, with "initial release" I mean the domestic release in China. I cannot rule out that we might already get some more than that with the release to the western market, where there is no official release date announced yet.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2018, 10:28:06 am by Performa01 »
 

Offline nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17630
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #36 on: May 25, 2018, 01:37:57 pm »
    -> better reputation, if you want
Well, Siglent certainly cannot design "reputation" into their new product. But just recently I got the confirmation from upper management, that they agree with me to give high priority to open, honest communication as well as listening to customer needs.
IMHO Siglent will do way better to implement better software testing and wait with releasing the firmware until it has been fully tested. There is no use to introduce a piece of equipment into the professional market segment if the software isn't ready and/or riddled with bugs. Better have less features which work than lots of features which don't work. Note that none of the A-brands sees Siglent as a serious competitor in any segment which in turn means the A-brands don't have to adjust their pricing.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2018, 02:04:09 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7899
  • Country: 00
  • Display aficionado
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #37 on: May 27, 2018, 04:29:49 am »
Guys, we know who's a Siglent fanboy and also who will consistently criticise the brand. It's tiring to see the same worn out nagging in every thread by the same people. Could we please just discuss the product without the brand war?
 
The following users thanked this post: rf-loop, TopLoser, kado, tv84, nugglix

Online maginnovision

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1092
  • Country: us
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #38 on: May 27, 2018, 07:53:18 pm »
Guys, we know who's a Siglent fanboy and also who will consistently criticise the brand. It's tiring to see the same worn out nagging in every thread by the same people. Could we please just discuss the product without the brand war?


Getting two different perspectives is useful. The company designing the product is also very relevant. I've found it absolutely helps me decide hearing the good and especially the critical to help decide. You may be tires of hearing both sides but as people are looking for info they may only look at this thread for instance, not every thread on every siglent product. This happens with every brands products siglent just seems worse because there are multiple sellers making sure the last word is theirs and positive.
 
The following users thanked this post: Electro Detective

Offline Hydrawerk

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2380
  • Country: 00
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #39 on: May 27, 2018, 09:41:08 pm »
 :)
Amazing machines. https://www.youtube.com/user/denha (It is not me...)
 

Offline Mr. Scram

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7899
  • Country: 00
  • Display aficionado
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #40 on: May 27, 2018, 10:12:59 pm »
Getting two different perspectives is useful. The company designing the product is also very relevant. I've found it absolutely helps me decide hearing the good and especially the critical to help decide. You may be tires of hearing both sides but as people are looking for info they may only look at this thread for instance, not every thread on every siglent product. This happens with every brands products siglent just seems worse because there are multiple sellers making sure the last word is theirs and positive.
Strongly biased information is useless. Having the same junk information rehashed time and time again is nothing but a waste of forum space. I understand some people may mistake it for something useful, but misinformation isn't. It's confusing and unfair at best and that works both ways.

The only thing it does is making the SNR quite terrible.
 
The following users thanked this post: tv84, nimish

Online maginnovision

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1092
  • Country: us
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #41 on: May 27, 2018, 11:44:24 pm »
So you'd rather people not have strong opinions? Everyone should feel everything in equal measure? If you don't care about other peoples opinions just go to the website and look at the datasheet. Again for a person trying to make a decision it can be useful information even if you don't like it. The posts that are an actual waste of space are ones like these where people try to reason with others over the opinions expressed.
 
The following users thanked this post: Electro Detective

Offline Mr. Scram

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7899
  • Country: 00
  • Display aficionado
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #42 on: May 28, 2018, 12:24:15 am »
So you'd rather people not have strong opinions? Everyone should feel everything in equal measure? If you don't care about other peoples opinions just go to the website and look at the datasheet. Again for a person trying to make a decision it can be useful information even if you don't like it. The posts that are an actual waste of space are ones like these where people try to reason with others over the opinions expressed.
You're not understanding me. We don't mind people having strong opinions here. Anyone who does wouldn't last very long. ;D The problem arises when strong opinions aren't based upon reality and simply consist of bias. They don't add anything of value to the conversation, just noise. Some here make a buck by selling Siglent devices and will always have a very favourable interpretation of how things are. Things are always good, regardless of how they actually are. That's not a valuable opinion, that's noise. Others always criticize the brand whatever it does and the same applies. If the answer is set before the question has been formulated the reply cannot have any value. There is no information.

As soon as there isn't a relationship between reality and the opinions voiced, they become noise. At best, it's a nuisance and at worst it'll confuse and misguide unsuspecting visitors.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2018, 12:26:04 am by Mr. Scram »
 

Offline tv84

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 858
  • Country: pt
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #43 on: May 31, 2018, 05:54:24 pm »
Looking at the latest SDS1000X-E firmware .APP, I see  these references to SDS5000X:

Code: [Select]
void *__fastcall sub_366E20(void *a1)
{
  void *v1; // r0@1
  void *result; // r0@3
  void *dest; // [sp+4h] [bp-10h]@1
  int v4; // [sp+Ch] [bp-8h]@1

  dest = a1;
  v1 = Scope_Model();
  v4 = sub_38934C((int)v1);
  if ( v4 != 3 && v4 != 4 )
    result = memcpy(dest, "SDS1000X-E", 0xBu);
  else
    result = memcpy(dest, "SDS5000X", 9u);
  return result;
}

There is also this reference in another place:
Code: [Select]
  if ( v15 == 5 )
  {
    result = memcpy(dest, "SLA1016", 8u);
  }
  else if ( v15 != 3 && v15 != 4 )
  {
    n = 0;
    v4 = "SDS102E";
    v5 = "SDS104E";
    v6 = "SDS106E";
    v7 = "SDS110E";
    v8 = "SDS115E";
    v9 = "SDS120E";
    v10 = "SDS125E";
    v11 = "SDS130E";
    v12 = "SDS105E";
    v13 = "SDS107E";
    result = (void *)sub_21C8B8();
    v14 = (signed int)result;
    if ( (signed int)result <= 9 )
    {
      n = strlen(&byte_12716A0[15 * v14]);
      if ( (signed int)n > 15 )
        n = 15;
      if ( byte_12716A0[15 * v14] && byte_12716A0[15 * v14] != 32 )
        result = strncpy((char *)dest, &byte_12716A0[15 * v14], n);
      else
        result = strcpy((char *)dest, *(const char **)&v17[4 * v14 - 52]);
    }
  }
  else
  {
    result = memcpy(dest, "SDS5000X", 9u);
  }
  return result;

And other brands possible:
Code: [Select]
signed int get_ScopeBrand_ID()
{
  signed int v0; // r3@2

       if ( gos_strcmp(SCOPE_BRAND, "ATTEN") == 0 )      v0 = 2;
  else if ( gos_strcmp(SCOPE_BRAND, "LECROY") == 0 )     v0 = 0;
  else if ( gos_strcmp(SCOPE_BRAND, "SIGLENT") == 0 )    v0 = 1;
  else if ( gos_strcmp(SCOPE_BRAND, "BK") == 0 )         v0 = 3;
  else if ( gos_strcmp(SCOPE_BRAND, "AKIP") == 0 )       v0 = 4;
  else if ( gos_strcmp(SCOPE_BRAND, "AKTAKOM") == 0 )    v0 = 5;
  else if ( gos_strcmp(SCOPE_BRAND, "KUNDE") == 0 )      v0 = 6;
  else if ( gos_strcmp(SCOPE_BRAND, "OEM_TO_POL") == 0 ) v0 = 7;
  else if ( gos_strcmp(SCOPE_BRAND, "SIGLENT_IE") == 0 ) v0 = 9;
  else v0 = 8;

  return v0;
}

So, does this mean that the SDS5000X will run the same firmware of the SDS1000X-E ?   ::)
« Last Edit: May 31, 2018, 06:05:08 pm by tv84 »
 

Online tautech

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 15977
  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. NZ Siglent Distributor
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #44 on: May 31, 2018, 08:10:56 pm »
Looking at the latest SDS1000X-E firmware .APP, I see  these references to SDS5000X:

There is also this reference in another place:
Code: [Select]
  if ( v15 == 5 )
  {
    result = memcpy(dest, "[b]SLA1016[/b]", 8u);
  }
  else if ( v15 != 3 && v15 != 4 )
  {
    n = 0;
    v4 = "SDS102E";
    v5 = "SDS104E";
    v6 = "SDS106E";
    v7 = "SDS110E";
    v8 = "SDS115E";
    v9 = "SDS120E";
    v10 = "SDS125E";
    v11 = "SDS130E";
    v12 = "SDS105E";
    v13 = "SDS107E";
    result = (void *)sub_21C8B8();
    v14 = (signed int)result;
    if ( (signed int)result <= 9 )
    {
      n = strlen(&byte_12716A0[15 * v14]);
      if ( (signed int)n > 15 )
        n = 15;
      if ( byte_12716A0[15 * v14] && byte_12716A0[15 * v14] != 32 )
        result = strncpy((char *)dest, &byte_12716A0[15 * v14], n);
      else
        result = strcpy((char *)dest, *(const char **)&v17[4 * v14 - 52]);
    }
  }
  else
  {
    result = memcpy(dest, "SDS5000X", 9u);
  }
  return result;


So, does this mean that the SDS5000X will run the same firmware of the SDS1000X-E ?   ::)
Some of it for sure but the GUI will be quite different.
Think, OS and FW.  ;)
SLA1016 subroutine is for the external AWG module also used for SDS1004X-E models.
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 

Offline nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17630
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #45 on: May 31, 2018, 08:59:42 pm »
I doubt the GUI will be radically different. It makes a lot of sense to use the same code base for a wide range of oscilloscopes. Chances are the SDS5000 also uses the Xilinx Zync hardware platform which is an interesting choice.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online tautech

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 15977
  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. NZ Siglent Distributor
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #46 on: October 09, 2018, 08:30:08 pm »
Release in a few weeks is the rumor.............

A couple of screenshots pinched from another thread.



Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 

Offline 2N3055

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2085
  • Country: hr
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #47 on: October 09, 2018, 09:05:09 pm »
U/I looks a bit like a cross between Lecroy(left, bottom and top) and Keysight (status area on the right)...


 

Online Performa01

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 815
  • Country: at
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #48 on: December 08, 2018, 12:20:17 pm »
I've learned that some like to verify scope bandwidth by using fast pulses or squarewaves, rather than the old-school (swept) sine wave approach (which is still the only valid one, since the pulse response heavily depends on the filter characteristics of the signal path).

Yet I thought I would show an example as a reference, what a 100MHz square wave is supposed to look like on a (true) 1GHz scope:


Square 100MHz_Z2ns+FFT

This is a 100MHz square wave with <100ps transition time.

Main timebase is 100ns/div in order to get a sufficiently detailed FFT from DC to 2GHz.
Zoom timebase is 2ns/div in order to get a detailed Y-t view.

Automatic measurements:
FOV = Overshoot after a falling edge.
ROV = Overshoot after a rising edge.
Rise & Fall times are not accurate because of limited scope rise time and also time measurement resolution limited to 20ps at that timebase.

This is from an early pre-production unit of the SDS5104X and the frontend will be further improved at public release.
 

Online tautech

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 15977
  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. NZ Siglent Distributor
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #49 on: January 14, 2019, 03:51:45 am »
This is from an early pre-production unit of the SDS5104X and the frontend will be further improved at public release.
And that's not far away it seems as I got an English datasheet today and pricing due very soon.
The datasheet is 5 MB so can't post it here but can share it by email if anyone can't wait for it to go online.

Things that stick out are the new additional decode protocols only offered as options:  :(
CAN FD, FlexRay, I2S and MIL-STD-1553B
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 

Online tautech

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 15977
  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. NZ Siglent Distributor
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #50 on: January 14, 2019, 09:06:38 am »
A few surprises:

2 Mpts FFT !
Inbuilt DVM and 1 GHz 7-digit frequency counter.
Math on Math.
Noise distribution Histograms.
Full BW down to 2.45mV/div, then BW limited to 200 MHz. (corrected)
User definable Zone Trigger.
Qualified Trigger: Hold off by Events or Time

Overview, PowerPoint slideshow download (10 MB):
https://mega.nz/#%21S40UAYbA%21EmaqcMfk3ve7OV6wNa6cXjTJhOYdq_14BlLivSjrDok
(sorry, a download once only link  :( )
See my reply below.

US Pricing:
SDS5032X   $ 2899   (350 MHz)
SDS5034X   $ 3569
SDS5052X   $ 5289   (500 MHz)
SDS5054X   $ 5689
SDS5102X   $ 5999   (1 GHz)
SDS5104X   $ 7289

MSO Logic probe and SW license $ 798
1 GHz active probe $ 999
CAN FD, FlexRay, I2S and MIL-STD-1553B triggering suite and decoder: $329 ea.

Release date unspecified, ~7 days.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2019, 09:25:13 pm by tautech »
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 
The following users thanked this post: 2N3055

Offline 2N3055

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2085
  • Country: hr
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #51 on: January 14, 2019, 10:37:47 am »
Tautech,

Presentation link doesn't work..

 

Online tautech

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 15977
  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. NZ Siglent Distributor
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #52 on: January 14, 2019, 10:54:10 am »
Tautech,

Presentation link doesn't work..
Oh bugger, it must have been a 'download once' link !  :(

Open invitation to PM me email addresses and I'll attach it to a reply. (NO spam ever sent !)
« Last Edit: January 14, 2019, 09:26:45 pm by tautech »
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 

Online Performa01

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 815
  • Country: at
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #53 on: January 14, 2019, 11:00:13 am »
A few surprises:

2 Mpts FFT !
Inbuilt DVM and 1 GHz 7-digit frequency counter.
Math on Math.
Noise distribution Histograms.
Full BW 500uV/div.
User definable Zone Trigger.
Qualified Trigger: Hold off by Events or Time
A few clarifications:

- Histicons in the measurement statistics (can be enlarged in a separate window)
- Dedicated vertical or horizontal histogram
- 200MHz BW-limit for the high sensitivities <2.45mV/div (it's in the fine print!)
- Zone Trigger and Qualified Trigger
- Holdoff by Time or by Event (relative to acquisition start or last trigger time) as an addition to all applicable triggers, vastly increasing their versatility

plus:
- Cycle to Cycle Jitter measurement, for this the precision and accuracy of time period measurements has been vastly improved down to single digit picosecond level
- Mask Test in the zoom window
- Zoom window as optional input source for Math and Measurements
- Comprehensive Online Help (English only)
- Integrated Web Server even better than on SDS1004X-E

... and a lot more to be added after the introduction.
 
The following users thanked this post: tautech, 2N3055

Offline simone.pignatti

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 328
  • Country: it
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #54 on: January 14, 2019, 12:15:53 pm »
important to say the 350MHz can not be upgraded to 1GHz
IDEA OF EURO PRICING VAT NOT INCLUDED - WILL ADJUST THEM ON THE 28TH
SDS5032X ... €2.500
SDS5034X ... €2.900
SDS5052X ... €4.600
SDS5054X ... €5.000
SDS5102X ... €5.300
SDS5104X ... €6.500

attached is Histogram and Trend diagrams display
« Last Edit: January 14, 2019, 12:41:55 pm by simone.pignatti »
Technical Support
 

Online tautech

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 15977
  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. NZ Siglent Distributor
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #55 on: January 16, 2019, 02:41:30 am »
I now have a smaller 6 MB SDS5000X Introduction pdf if anyone wants it.
Appears to be identical to the 10 MB PPT offered above.

So the choice is now PPT or PDF, your call.
Email required via PM.
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 

Offline simone.pignatti

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 328
  • Country: it
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #56 on: January 18, 2019, 05:05:14 pm »
here is a picture of the 1GHz active probe Siglent SAP1000
Technical Support
 

Offline JPortici

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2560
  • Country: it
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #57 on: January 25, 2019, 12:19:15 pm »
This morning gianmarco from batterfly came to the office so we couod try the sds5000x.

Damn, i was really impressed. Even though some things need refinement (like that it wasn't obvious how to set up zone trigger, auto thresholds for decoders and such things) the funcionality is there. Not sure if some things were working as intended (i expect clear to clear all the screen and not only the persistence) I saw some things that some people may call glitches but really aren't (reduce the timebase, for a moment you may see a cropped waveform.. but it's obviously because there is no data to display and it defaults to zero! Fine by me)

Other pros:
Very quiet.
Very fast interface, even if i enabled literally every function available.
Math on math is always nice.
Never froze or hung up.
Like the screen very much.
Resonably fast to boot (i think 30 seconds?)

Some cons:
They should display decoders like how R&S does. Or at least some color coding.. see lecroy and picoscope.
Some things needs refinement in the decoder section. XY with more options (for now it's like in the dark age, ch1 and ch2 only).
It appears it doesn't save the event table to file, only waveform data or screenshot or setup.
Plus other little things i already passed up

But all in all a great instrument, working as intended from day one. And if some of the enhancements i proposed will get implemented.. it will be software wise on about the same level as a lecroy 4000. Given the price it's really something. IMHO it's already the best of the chinese scopes.

We also had a little contest with a RTB2000, we wanted to see which decoder would crap out first. It was the RTB, even if it was sampling at a higher rate.
The DUT was an I2C bus drawing a framebuffer on an I2C small oled, at a non standard 800kHz (i had that laying around). The non standard frwquency could have upset the hardware decoder in the R&S but i didn't  have the time to load the project and change it so take the result with a pinch :)

 

Offline nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17630
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #58 on: January 26, 2019, 10:46:05 pm »
Just wondering. Is the firmware based on the firmware used on other models? It would be good if it is so features & fixes can be applied across the entire line. A head-to-head comparison with the Rigol MSO5000 would be nice as well. Then again based on your list with cons the firmware doesn't seem to be completely finished yet.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline simone.pignatti

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 328
  • Country: it
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #59 on: January 27, 2019, 09:25:38 am »
Just wondering. Is the firmware based on the firmware used on other models? It would be good if it is so features & fixes can be applied across the entire line. A head-to-head comparison with the Rigol MSO5000 would be nice as well. Then again based on your list with cons the firmware doesn't seem to be completely finished yet.
The SDS5104X FW version was SDS5000X-V0.7.9R1 (RTB had 02.202) . I'm not quite sure this will be the official one on the first batch of stock units, we will discover this soon.
Yes comparing with other models will be nice, just need to find the time for it :(
« Last Edit: January 27, 2019, 09:27:45 am by simone.pignatti »
Technical Support
 

Online Performa01

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 815
  • Country: at
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #60 on: January 27, 2019, 12:15:46 pm »
The SDS5104X FW version was SDS5000X-V0.7.9R1 (RTB had 02.202) . I'm not quite sure this will be the official one on the first batch of stock units, we will discover this soon.
 
Certainly not. Release FW will be V0.8.xxx

Damn, i was really impressed. Even though some things need refinement (like that it wasn't obvious how to set up zone trigger, auto thresholds for decoders and such things) the funcionality is there.
Zone trigger works in combination with the existing triggers and helps to define additional criteria in order to get an ambiguous trigger condition unique, hence stable. The definition of the trigger zones might be a bit tricky, but I think with a little practice we can get used to that. I personally prefer to set up a zone trigger in Stop or even History mode, so that I can select a single acquisition that I’d like to make stable.

Here’s a made-up example. First just edge trigger, this certainly doesn’t define a stable trigger condition:


SDS5104X_Trig_Edge

With an additional “non-intersect” zone everything is fine:


SDS5104X_Trig_Zone2

Not sure if some things were working as intended (i expect clear to clear all the screen and not only the persistence) I saw some things that some people may call glitches but really aren't (reduce the timebase, for a moment you may see a cropped waveform.. but it's obviously because there is no data to display and it defaults to zero! Fine by me)
The button on the front panel is labelled “Clear Sweeps” and it is not the same as [Clear Screen], which can be found in the Display menu. Clear Sweeps deletes all traces on the display except for the most recent acquisition, it also resets persistence, measurement statistics, Roll mode, Averages in FFT – and sure a couple more things I forgot to mention. It is a very frequently used function, hence the dedicated physical button. I don’t think that I’ve ever really missed the [Clear Screen] function, but it’s there for those who do.

Other pros:
Very quiet.
Very fast interface, even if i enabled literally every function available.
Math on math is always nice.
Never froze or hung up.
Like the screen very much.
Resonably fast to boot (i think 30 seconds?)

Some cons:
They should display decoders like how R&S does. Or at least some color coding.. see lecroy and picoscope.
Some things needs refinement in the decoder section. XY with more options (for now it's like in the dark age, ch1 and ch2 only).
It appears it doesn't save the event table to file, only waveform data or screenshot or setup.
Plus other little things i already passed up

But all in all a great instrument, working as intended from day one. And if some of the enhancements i proposed will get implemented.. it will be software wise on about the same level as a lecroy 4000. Given the price it's really something. IMHO it's already the best of the chinese scopes.
Glad you like it already - as I’ve mentioned in an earlier post, there’s a long list of features yet to come.
But similar to some other big brand, the Siglent SDS5000X will be introduced now, even though it will probably take at least one more year until it can reach the “feature complete” state. And this needs not be the end - Siglent has always been open for requests from competent folks.

The X/Y mode is already more than just a basic emulation, it is hardware accelerated, thus very fast and provides most of the functionality of the Y-t mode, including intensity grading, persistence and history. Nevertheless there is an open request for XYZ mode – glad if you are supporting this request too!

Regarding the “other little things”, rest assured that they are seriously considered – and some priorities might have even changed because of that ;)
 
The following users thanked this post: 2N3055

Offline JPortici

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2560
  • Country: it
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #61 on: January 27, 2019, 12:57:42 pm »
A head-to-head comparison with the Rigol MSO5000 would be nice as well. Then again based on your list with cons the firmware doesn't seem to be completely finished yet.

Not completely finished, but completely usable. If anything, it didn't crash or reboot, yet.
I didn't have time to play with it for more than a couple of hours but me and gianmarco wrote down a list of things that could be improved in the interface and that shouldn't be too difficult to implement if they get approved.
 

Offline 2N3055

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2085
  • Country: hr
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #62 on: January 27, 2019, 01:55:51 pm »
Just wondering. Is the firmware based on the firmware used on other models? It would be good if it is so features & fixes can be applied across the entire line. A head-to-head comparison with the Rigol MSO5000 would be nice as well. Then again based on your list with cons the firmware doesn't seem to be completely finished yet.

Well, it is a 1GHz scope, so comparison with at least Rigol MSO/DS7000 ( or the new one yet to be released 1GHZ scope from Rigol) would be more appropriate.

From what I can see, SDS5000X seem to have better analog front end (sensitivity and noise), better concept of GUI (better usage of screen), better concept of history buffers and segmented memory in general.
They are nicely shaping up to be affordable alternative to LeCroy or R&S type scopes. Rigol seems to model it's products after different concept, and frankly I find Siglent's approach both more modern and more usable.
 

Offline nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17630
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #63 on: January 27, 2019, 02:48:09 pm »
Just wondering. Is the firmware based on the firmware used on other models? It would be good if it is so features & fixes can be applied across the entire line. A head-to-head comparison with the Rigol MSO5000 would be nice as well. Then again based on your list with cons the firmware doesn't seem to be completely finished yet.

Well, it is a 1GHz scope, so comparison with at least Rigol MSO/DS7000 ( or the new one yet to be released 1GHZ scope from Rigol) would be more appropriate.

From what I can see, SDS5000X seem to have better analog front end (sensitivity and noise), better concept of GUI (better usage of screen), better concept of history buffers and segmented memory in general.
They are nicely shaping up to be affordable alternative to LeCroy or R&S type scopes. Rigol seems to model it's products after different concept, and frankly I find Siglent's approach both more modern and more usable.
It all comes down to how useable (*) it is when released. So far non of the A-brands considers Siglent a competitor. It seems Siglent has taken testing more seriously by pre-releasing units to beta testers and listening to their feedback. That is a big step forward towards entering the professional market succesfully. Looking forward to see how this unfolds.

*  Equals to: do most of the features actually work as advertised and no show-stopper bugs.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2019, 02:50:54 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline 2N3055

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2085
  • Country: hr
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #64 on: January 27, 2019, 02:54:10 pm »

It all comes down to how useable (*) it is when released. So far non of the A-brands considers Siglent a competitor. It seems Siglent has taken testing more seriously by pre-releasing units to beta testers and listening to their feedback. That is a big step forward towards entering the professional market succesfully. Looking forward to see how this unfolds.

*  Equals to: do most of the features actually work as advertised and no show-stopper bugs.

I agree with everything.
 

Offline 0xdeadbeef

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1313
  • Country: de
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #65 on: January 27, 2019, 03:38:38 pm »
I understand that the probe interface is not Lecroy's ProBus, even though it looks similar. While understandable (from LeCroy's point of view), this is a bit disappointing  since being able to use older active Lecroy probes from eBay would be a big advantage. I wonder if there will be at least adapters for stuff like ProBus and TekProbe. E.g. there's TekProbe adapter for the bigger Rigol scopes (like DS7000) which is at least better than being limited just to a active probes from a B-brand which however cost nearly as much as  from an A-brand even though the resell value is just a fraction of that.

[EDIT]
The datasheet seems to float around already (4.5MB):
https://www.foldertrade.hu/download/SDS5000X.pdf
« Last Edit: January 27, 2019, 03:44:51 pm by 0xdeadbeef »
Trying is the first step towards failure - Homer J. Simpson
 

Offline klaus11

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 156
  • Country: 00
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #66 on: January 27, 2019, 04:35:52 pm »
Maybe a change towards rubber knobs in white or grey neutral color.
HP3458A, HP3245a, Keithley 2000, Fluke 87V, Rigol DP832, TEK TDS5052B, HP33120A
 

Offline 0xdeadbeef

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1313
  • Country: de
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #67 on: January 27, 2019, 07:08:40 pm »
Something somewhat disappointing I noticed in the datasheet is that the bandwidth is limited to 200MHz for anything below and including the 1mV/div range (350MHz model) or even below and including 2.45 mV/div for the 500MHz and 1GHz models. For comparison, the R&S RTB2K has full bandwidth down to the 1mv/div range and the RTM3K down to the 500µV/div range. As far as I can tell, even the Lecroy WS3K scopes have full bandwidth for all voltage ranges (at least I can't find any limitation mentioned in their specs).
Trying is the first step towards failure - Homer J. Simpson
 

Online maginnovision

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1092
  • Country: us
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #68 on: January 27, 2019, 07:25:07 pm »
Something somewhat disappointing I noticed in the datasheet is that the bandwidth is limited to 200MHz for anything below and including the 1mV/div range (350MHz model) or even below and including 2.45 mV/div for the 500MHz and 1GHz models. For comparison, the R&S RTB2K has full bandwidth down to the 1mv/div range and the RTM3K down to the 500µV/div range. As far as I can tell, even the Lecroy WS3K scopes have full bandwidth for all voltage ranges (at least I can't find any limitation mentioned in their specs).

That's one way to keep the noisy front end from causing issues. At least it's pretty decent otherwise. Actually I'm kind of surprised it has less memory than my scope(I have the ext mem option though). Granted the siglent has it all available no matter what where the RTB you can only make full use of it using segmented mode. The ch-ch isolation also seems a little low for this class of instrument? So many little details that make me  ???
« Last Edit: January 27, 2019, 07:48:10 pm by maginnovision »
 

Online tautech

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 15977
  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. NZ Siglent Distributor
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #69 on: January 27, 2019, 07:27:13 pm »
Maybe a change towards rubber knobs in white or grey neutral color.
The knobs look the same as those used in SDS2kX series and are rubberized. They are much nicer than the plain plastic used in Siglent's other DSO's.
In a SDS2304X I had with some 400 starts, the grip on the knobs was still excellent when I sold it.

Occasionally when doing a lot of Multipurpose knob work I would swap one of the larger knobs onto it for finer control but with the SDS5kX having a touch display and virtual keypads I doubt there will be need for that old trick.
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 

Offline simone.pignatti

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 328
  • Country: it
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #70 on: January 27, 2019, 10:38:22 pm »
only thing I have to say ... sorry for my voice!

https://youtu.be/CyHuq0ULiNo
Technical Support
 
The following users thanked this post: egonotto, Apochrom

Offline 0xdeadbeef

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1313
  • Country: de
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #71 on: January 27, 2019, 11:05:58 pm »
It's a shame they didn't learn from LeCroy how design a top notch frontend. Everything else looks pretty much promising.
I guess there are no advanced search/analysis features either like "WaveScan" on the LeCroys.
Still, despite of some drawbacks, this sure looks like interesting entry in the 500MHz/1GHz area where at the moment there's simply nothing in this price class (without hacking etc.).
Let's hope they don't mess anything major up.
Trying is the first step towards failure - Homer J. Simpson
 

Online Performa01

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 815
  • Country: at
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #72 on: January 27, 2019, 11:18:08 pm »
Actually I'm kind of surprised it has less memory than my scope(I have the ext mem option though).
I would be interesting what scope you have that provides more than 2x250Mpts resp. 4x125Mpts = 500Mpts total, even with an extended memory option?

The ch-ch isolation also seems a little low for this class of instrument? So many little details that make me  ???
Maybe you should take into account that e.g. R&S RTM3000 claims >50dB channel isolation only for equal sensitivities on each input channel?
Some of Siglent's specifications are painfully conservative - Offset accuracy is another example.
 
The following users thanked this post: egonotto

Online maginnovision

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1092
  • Country: us
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #73 on: January 27, 2019, 11:27:58 pm »
Actually I'm kind of surprised it has less memory than my scope(I have the ext mem option though).
I would be interesting what scope you have that provides more than 2x250Mpts resp. 4x125Mpts = 500Mpts total, even with an extended memory option?

The ch-ch isolation also seems a little low for this class of instrument? So many little details that make me  ???
Maybe you should take into account that e.g. R&S RTM3000 claims >50dB channel isolation only for equal sensitivities on each input channel?
Some of Siglent's specifications are painfully conservative - Offset accuracy is another example.

The RTB2K with History(ext mem) has 160 x 4(320 x 2) Mpts. Not sure about siglent but you get the same memory for logic also but that's not really 1:1. The RTM has something like 200 x 4Mpts. You can say they're conservative but the datasheet says what it says.  :-//

That wasn't the only example of odd things it was just one that stood out enough for me to query about. If I were still looking at the datasheet I could ask you more but I just started working so can't right now. One thing I did notice is the timebase accuracy is very good. Actually thinking about segmented memory reminded me... The Siglent was something like 2us and the RTM is 200ns between acqs, that's pretty significant.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2019, 11:48:35 pm by maginnovision »
 

Offline 0xdeadbeef

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1313
  • Country: de
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #74 on: January 28, 2019, 05:31:34 pm »
Batronix has them in stock now. The SDS5054X sells for 5901.21€. At least this sounds somewhat more realistic than the (insane) ~9758€ Rigol asks for a DS7054 (which doesn't even have an MSO option). Then again, my understanding is that the  Rigol DS7014 could be currently "upgraded" to a DS7054, so this comparison is a bit off anyway.
So let's see if there will be some kind of promotion or whatever. I still think that 6k€ is too much for a Siglent with so-so frontend and much worse support, probe availability and resell value compared to an A brand.
Trying is the first step towards failure - Homer J. Simpson
 

Offline colorado.rob

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 241
  • Country: us
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #75 on: January 28, 2019, 06:18:12 pm »
important to say the 350MHz can not be upgraded to 1GHz

Does that mean that the 350MHz version can be upgraded to 500MHz?  And that the 500MHz version can be upgraded to 1GHz?

What I really want is an SDS2204X-E, mostly because the LA and protocol decoders on the SDS2204X did not meet expectations and do not meet my needs.
 

Offline 0xdeadbeef

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1313
  • Country: de
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #76 on: January 28, 2019, 07:08:15 pm »
Does that mean that the 350MHz version can be upgraded to 500MHz?  And that the 500MHz version can be upgraded to 1GHz?
Options are listed in the datasheet. There's the explicit phrase there "SDS5034X/SDS5032X cannot be upgraded to SDS5104X/SDS5102X".
So yes, you can update from 350MHz to 500MHz and from 500MHz to 1GHz but not from 350MHz to 1GHz.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2019, 07:09:51 pm by 0xdeadbeef »
Trying is the first step towards failure - Homer J. Simpson
 

Online tautech

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 15977
  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. NZ Siglent Distributor
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #77 on: January 28, 2019, 07:22:32 pm »
So let's see if there will be some kind of promotion or whatever. I still think that 6k€ is too much for a Siglent with so-so frontend and much worse support, probe availability and resell value compared to an A brand.
Why do you think/imagine this to be the case ?  :-//

Did you not see this ?
Siglent has always been open for requests from competent folks............

Regarding the “other little things”, rest assured that they are seriously considered (by Siglent)..............
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 

Offline 0xdeadbeef

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1313
  • Country: de
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #78 on: January 28, 2019, 07:31:10 pm »
Well, don't get me wrong but I can't imagine that the Siglent support can compete with e.g. LeCroy at company level. Like our local LeCroy sales guy came to our department several times to present new scopes, gave us replacement handles for old scopes for free etc. Besides, bigger companies get discounts and if you ask for some additional discount like some decoders included for free, you usually get that as well. Stuff like this.
Trying is the first step towards failure - Homer J. Simpson
 

Online tautech

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 15977
  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. NZ Siglent Distributor
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #79 on: January 28, 2019, 07:51:45 pm »
Well, don't get me wrong but I can't imagine that the Siglent support can compete with e.g. LeCroy at company level. Like our local LeCroy sales guy came to our department several times to present new scopes, gave us replacement handles for old scopes for free etc. Besides, bigger companies get discounts and if you ask for some additional discount like some decoders included for free, you usually get that as well. Stuff like this.
Siglent support is branch based, Hamburg, Ohio or Shenzhen.
The real brand face to face support is at the distributor/dealer level......we are the guys that knock on doors to offer what support we can.......little things like folding bail handles are cheaper than beer at your local pub !
I had to get one for a customer and it was so cheap the paperwork to charge for it would have cost more so I sent it through NC.

The vast majority of support can be provided via emails however one must consider who goes to the effort of providing good support must also have the funding for it from sales profits.
There are no free lunches.
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 

Offline 2N3055

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2085
  • Country: hr
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #80 on: January 28, 2019, 07:55:48 pm »
Well, don't get me wrong but I can't imagine that the Siglent support can compete with e.g. LeCroy at company level. Like our local LeCroy sales guy came to our department several times to present new scopes, gave us replacement handles for old scopes for free etc. Besides, bigger companies get discounts and if you ask for some additional discount like some decoders included for free, you usually get that as well. Stuff like this.

I keep hearing that.
I think support is highly dependent on country.

When I tried to contact them to try to buy a scope, they literally fucked me off , pardon my French. I am small company that would buy one ws3000 or maybe a refurbished one of larger models.
They couldn't care less for me. Too small to care for. And after I already purchased something else, the model I was interested in was offered on E-bay for less than I offered.

I bought Keysight MSO3000T because Keysight was willing to listen to me and respected me as a customer no matter how small I was.

LeCroy was my first choice, I like their concept. After that experience I was sure that if I bought the scope they would give me shit support.

In my experience so far, Siglent and Rigol gave me better support than LeCroy, with Keysight being best so far.
Your mileage may vary...

Regards,

Sinisa
 

Offline 0xdeadbeef

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1313
  • Country: de
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #81 on: January 28, 2019, 08:27:53 pm »
For sure it's a difference if you work for an international company with thousands of employees or a small one with just a few people. Still, you don't want to seriously put Rigol over LeCroy support. The few times I tried to contact Rigol they were either totally incompetent or lied or a mixture of both. For many years you had to beg to get a firmware update and then there was a 30% chance to brick your device. Maybe things got better, but my confidence in Rigol support is totally shattered. Keysight and LeCroy were/are just a totally different league - at least at company level.
I honestly can't tell anything about Siglent or how Keysight or Lecroy would treat me as private customer. So maybe I did Siglent injustice. I just find it hard to believe they have a large local support team of application engineers who are native speakers and know their instruments inside out but maybe I'm wrong.
Trying is the first step towards failure - Homer J. Simpson
 
The following users thanked this post: 2N3055

Offline BillB

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 554
  • Country: us
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #82 on: January 28, 2019, 09:14:17 pm »
When I tried to contact them to try to buy a scope, they literally fucked me off...

Wow, I really hope that wasn't the case.  I hope it was figuratively!   :D
 

Offline 2N3055

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2085
  • Country: hr
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #83 on: January 28, 2019, 09:31:52 pm »
When I tried to contact them to try to buy a scope, they literally fucked me off...

Wow, I really hope that wasn't the case.  I hope it was figuratively!   :D

LOL !!  :-DD
Yes you got it right...
 

Offline Martin72

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 523
  • Country: de
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #84 on: January 28, 2019, 09:41:24 pm »
Batronix has them in stock now. The SDS5054X sells for 5901.21€. At least this sounds somewhat more realistic than the (insane) ~9758€ Rigol asks for a DS7054 (which doesn't even have an MSO option). Then again, my understanding is that the  Rigol DS7014 could be currently "upgraded" to a DS7054, so this comparison is a bit off anyway.
So let's see if there will be some kind of promotion or whatever. I still think that 6k€ is too much for a Siglent with so-so frontend and much worse support, probe availability and resell value compared to an A brand.

Saw it a few minutes ago (on batronix)….
The prices are in the range of an RTB 2000 or "smaller" WS3000Z ( btw, the siglent´s back looks like a WS3000...), the prices for the rigol 7000s seems like a joke against.
So the 5000s siglent must compete against R&S and Lecroy.
I didn´t see the rigol 7000 as a real opponent for the siglent.

Online tautech

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 15977
  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. NZ Siglent Distributor
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #85 on: January 28, 2019, 09:55:09 pm »
I honestly can't tell anything about Siglent or how Keysight or Lecroy would treat me as private customer.
Then don't speculate.
Quote
So maybe I did Siglent injustice. I just find it hard to believe they have a large local support team of application engineers who are native speakers and know their instruments inside out but maybe I'm wrong.
A little, hey we have had problems in the past but now with the worldwide team of excellent beta testers and experienced quality staff from the industry that cover most languages we can only get better.
I can say, when I beta tested SDS1104X-E the product managers I dealt with at the factory were wonderful and with excellent English skills.

How big their product teams are, well we can make guesses from the factory info online but certainly they are not large.
IMHO that's a good thing, as a small highly skilled team gets projects done whereas too many cooks can spoil the broth.  ;)
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 
The following users thanked this post: grouchobyte

Offline nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17630
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #86 on: January 28, 2019, 09:58:32 pm »
Well, don't get me wrong but I can't imagine that the Siglent support can compete with e.g. LeCroy at company level. Like our local LeCroy sales guy came to our department several times to present new scopes, gave us replacement handles for old scopes for free etc. Besides, bigger companies get discounts and if you ask for some additional discount like some decoders included for free, you usually get that as well. Stuff like this.
I keep hearing that.
I think support is highly dependent on country.

When I tried to contact them to try to buy a scope, they literally fucked me off , pardon my French. I am small company that would buy one ws3000 or maybe a refurbished one of larger models.
They couldn't care less for me. Too small to care for. And after I already purchased something else, the model I was interested in was offered on E-bay for less than I offered.
I have a similar experience with Lecroy. I tried to get a good deal on the Wavesurfer 3000 but the local dealer didn't want to do a deal. They offered a Rigol instead  :palm:  (am I at 'Toys are us' now?). Since then I don't bother with Lecroy. Also I won't buy Siglent stuff from the local distributor I bought my SDS2204 from. Utterly useless and they didn't want to take it back when it turned out to be a complete turd. Unfortunately you won't know the level of service until you really need service.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2019, 10:06:56 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
The following users thanked this post: 2N3055

Offline 0xdeadbeef

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1313
  • Country: de
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #87 on: January 28, 2019, 10:31:27 pm »
Then don't speculate.
Well, I will speculate as much as I desire. I sure hope your tone is nicer when dealing with customers as else this would somehow justify my prejudice.

I have a similar experience with Lecroy. I tried to get a good deal on the Wavesurfer 3000 but the local dealer didn't want to do a deal. They offered a Rigol instead  :palm:  (am I at 'Toys are us' now?). Since then I don't bother with Lecroy. Also I won't buy Siglent stuff from the local distributor I bought my SDS2204 from. Utterly useless and they didn't want to take it back when it turned out to be a complete turd. Unfortunately you won't know the level of service until you really need service.
That is an experience with some dealer, not with LeCroy or their support.

But anyway, this has gone a bit offtopic. Partly my fault for which I excuse. Maybe we should focus on the SDS5000X again.
Trying is the first step towards failure - Homer J. Simpson
 

Offline nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17630
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #88 on: January 28, 2019, 11:59:19 pm »
That is an experience with some dealer, not with LeCroy or their support.
The problem is that for some brands you can't choose a local dealer. It is all divided in geographical areas. Ofcourse you can buy from generic outlets like Farnell, etc but then you can kiss making a deal goodbey.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline JPortici

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2560
  • Country: it
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #89 on: January 29, 2019, 04:49:35 pm »
Batronix has them in stock now. The SDS5054X sells for 5901.21€. At least this sounds somewhat more realistic than the (insane) ~9758€ Rigol asks for a DS7054 (which doesn't even have an MSO option). Then again, my understanding is that the  Rigol DS7014 could be currently "upgraded" to a DS7054, so this comparison is a bit off anyway.
So let's see if there will be some kind of promotion or whatever. I still think that 6k€ is too much for a Siglent with so-so frontend and much worse support, probe availability and resell value compared to an A brand.

Saw it a few minutes ago (on batronix)….
The prices are in the range of an RTB 2000 or "smaller" WS3000Z ( btw, the siglent´s back looks like a WS3000...), the prices for the rigol 7000s seems like a joke against.
So the 5000s siglent must compete against R&S and Lecroy.
I didn´t see the rigol 7000 as a real opponent for the siglent.


You get it. I find that the GUI, the general looks and features take a lot of inspiration from LeCroy.

0xdeadbeef raise a good point on the probe interface, i don't think i've seen any document about it...
 

Online Performa01

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 815
  • Country: at
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #90 on: January 31, 2019, 01:43:27 pm »
here is a picture of the 1GHz active probe Siglent SAP1000

I happen to have a frequency response graph for an engineering sample of the SAP1000. Together with the pre-production unit of the SDS5104X, frequency response is flat within +2/-3dB up to >1.1GHz.


SDS5104X_SAP1000_FFT_FR_2GHz_5mV_02


Even though only rated as 500MHz (and there will not be many useful applications at the higher frequencies because of the capacitive load), the supplied passive probes are quite impressive as well . When driven from a 25 Ohm source, frequency response is flat within +/-1.5dB up to ~1050MHz.


SDS5104X_SP3050A_FFT_FR_2GHz_20mV_01
 
The following users thanked this post: 2N3055

Online tautech

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 15977
  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. NZ Siglent Distributor
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2019, 01:33:07 am by tautech »
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 
The following users thanked this post: Martin72

Offline bugi

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 250
  • Country: fi
  • Hobbyist using the ultra slow and unsure method
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #92 on: February 02, 2019, 11:20:44 am »
Why do they call the AWG option "built-in" in the header/title of that section, when it seems to actually be an external device, just being controlled by the scope software (like 2000X-E, which has "module" in the corresponding title)?
 

Offline 0xdeadbeef

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1313
  • Country: de
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #93 on: February 02, 2019, 12:17:19 pm »
I think this was somewhat clear from the very first announcements. Still, it's a bit of a shame that even using an external box, the output signals are limited to +/-3.3V. Also I understand arbitrary waveforms can only use 16k Points.
-> seem somewhat pointless like most "integrated" AWGs.

Honestly, the option model is a bit weird anyway. While it's nice and fait that standard decoders come with the scope, the bundle/price politic seems strange. Like you get CAN for free, but the CAN FD decoder costs $329 plus VAT even though CAN FD just adds a few additional data lengths and the ID part can be sent in higher frequency. So it's a minimum change to an existing decoder for 1ß% of the base model's price. It would have been more air and sensible to include I2S and put CAN, CAN FD and FlexRay in an optional automotive bundle.

I'm also concerned that the MSO and AWG options are split into a HW and SW part. Like the MSO is SDS-5000X-16LA for the SW option on top of the SPL2016 probe. Also I understand you need to purchase the AWG SW option SDS-5000X-FG in addition to the actual USB AWG SAG1021.

Well, I personally can live without the MSO option and the AWG seems much to limited anyway to put any serious money in it, so it doesn't really concern me much. I just don't like the idea of charging twice.
Trying is the first step towards failure - Homer J. Simpson
 

Offline rf-loop

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3069
  • Country: fi
  • Starting with DLL21
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #94 on: February 02, 2019, 02:36:31 pm »


I'm also concerned that the MSO and AWG options are split into a HW and SW part. Like the MSO is SDS-5000X-16LA for the SW option on top of the SPL2016 probe. Also I understand you need to purchase the AWG SW option SDS-5000X-FG in addition to the actual USB AWG SAG1021.


AWG
Why you are concerned about splitted HW and SW?
Just tiny example, if user need signal source only for under 25MHz bode plot he  can just buy SAG1021 HW and nothing else. He not forced to buy SW license.

MSO
User need only buy SW license once.
He can then buy probe as often as need when these wear and tear. Probes are easy-to-wear and breakable goods when used continuously i real work. One accidental drop to floor and then someone walk, one accidental touch with soldering iron, and so on and so on. In some cases 16 channel LA probe is more easy to leave installed when need do some other things. Time is money, so 2 or 3 probes are perhaps more economy than always install probe lines specially if DUT is bit difficult to connect. Only need buy one SW.
Then need only buy probes if need more or one is worn.  Just as buy car tires or brake pads.
 
Or if have many scopes (example on some workshop) but only rare need MSO. Then license to all scopes but only one probe.
I think it is best that user can select what he need and what not.


Old times in one place we buy scopes and triple probe sets for all scopes, because all know that working in "field" is best place to loose probes or defect them. Just one turn and oups.. ... "it was probe". Who have time to wait new probes when need do work. Travel and/or waiting hours may cost 100 or "sky is limit" times more than one shit probe. Also I buy new  socks after they worn... some times buy just new ones if they smell or looks dirty - depending situation and good socks price is like "el cheapo" standard probe" and bit better probe is like shirt, if it wear or looks dirty just buy new one.  If trousers looks worn, well I buy new trousers and _good_ trousers price is nearly as one LA probe.

I'm much more concerned if HW and SW for options are welded together.
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory  is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
It is much easier to think an apple fall to the ground than to think that the earth and the apple will begin to move toward each other and collide.
 

Offline 0xdeadbeef

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1313
  • Country: de
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #95 on: February 02, 2019, 06:32:24 pm »
They could just as well only sell the HW and make the SW option free as this is the case for other scopes.
Trying is the first step towards failure - Homer J. Simpson
 

Offline Martin72

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 523
  • Country: de
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #96 on: February 02, 2019, 11:41:23 pm »
Quote
Just tiny example, if user need signal source only for under 25MHz bode plot he  can just buy SAG1021 HW and nothing else. He not forced to buy SW license.


To me it seems, you must buy a license too to use the SAG1021.

Online Rerouter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4311
  • Country: au
  • Question Everything... Except This Statement
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #97 on: February 02, 2019, 11:45:34 pm »
for bode plot its free, for AWG usage where you can set the frequency amplitude, etc its by license only.
 

Offline Martin72

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 523
  • Country: de
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #98 on: February 02, 2019, 11:51:00 pm »
Ah, ok...

Offline 0xdeadbeef

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1313
  • Country: de
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #99 on: February 03, 2019, 12:52:01 am »
Still, the AWG hardware costs like 140€ (without VAT) and I understand you could use all the AWG features with the free EasyWave SW from the PC while you are supposed to pay another 250€ (without VAT) to do the same from the scope (while you could get an SDG1032X for less)? BTW: for the SDS1004X-E, the SW licenses are around 100€ for LA and AWG which seems more reasonable and fair.
Admittedly, all manufacturers charge much higher prices for the very same licenses on the more expensive scopes. I can somewhat understand the business reasoning behind it (if you can afford 10k for a scope, you can also pay 1k for a piece SW), but it still feels like a ripoff.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2019, 12:53:53 am by 0xdeadbeef »
Trying is the first step towards failure - Homer J. Simpson
 

Online Rerouter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4311
  • Country: au
  • Question Everything... Except This Statement
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #100 on: February 03, 2019, 03:22:41 am »
the AWG they are using is maximum amplitude of 6V pk-pk, with a maximum output of +-4V, e.g. 6V amplitude with a 1V offset,

Above that it triggers the "Output protection" I haven't yet dug into where that is in the margins. and the function can be turned off, But i would like to know what its protecting first.

You can think of it as the second channel of a SDG1025, I am trying to work out if the output voltage can be increased, but not there just yet.

The DAC alone is capable of 125MHz update rate. and it is indeed being updated at that rate, this is obvious because It has 1 sample time worth of jitter when you get close to the maximum frequency (this isn't a design flaw, Its just the limitation of the sampling rate vs output frequency resulting in a poor division)

Equally it has an arb repeat rate of up to 5MHz, and does this by picking intermediate samples when the repeat rate is faster than the update rate can handle. so technically there is no reason this cannot output a 62.5MHz square wave, though it would be much closer to a triangle wave at that point.

Edit: The output has 3 output ranges, 4-63mV pk-pk (+-705mV Offset), 64-631mV pk-pk (+-4V Offset),  and 632-6000mV pk-pk (+-4V Offset) I cannot yet clarify if they have the full 14 bit resolution for all 3 ranges, or if its switching something else.

« Last Edit: February 03, 2019, 04:29:00 am by Rerouter »
 

Online tautech

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 15977
  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. NZ Siglent Distributor
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #101 on: February 04, 2019, 08:23:08 am »
Why do they call the AWG option "built-in" in the header/title of that section, when it seems to actually be an external device, just being controlled by the scope software (like 2000X-E, which has "module" in the corresponding title)?
Yes, I can see how this could be confusing:
25 MHz function / arbitrary waveform generator, built-in multiple predefined waveforms

Maybe a better wording would be in-built and addition of Optional module, however this is only describing the waveform types available in the optional SAG1021 AWG external HW.

These new SDS5000X, SDS2000X-E and SDS1*04X-E all share the SAG1021 AWG HW.
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 

Offline Martin72

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 523
  • Country: de
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #102 on: February 04, 2019, 09:47:22 am »
Still confusing…
So you must buy the HW (SAG1021) and SW (License) to use the AWG functionality?
Or to use the SAG1021 itself?
So the scopes are only the frontpanel for it, right ?
The option cost 296€ (incl. VAT) plus the SAG1021 for 165€....
Why should I spend about 460€ for a 1-Ch AWG with limited possibilities....

Online Rerouter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4311
  • Country: au
  • Question Everything... Except This Statement
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #103 on: February 04, 2019, 10:13:32 am »
Correct Martin, to use it via the scope UI you need to buy both the device, and the licence,

whereas if you have an external siglent AWG, you can still use bode plot mode with it out of the box. Its only the control of the USB AWG from the scope UI that would are paying for with the license.

The other pain I hope they address is the UI controls do not expose everything the device can do, only the "BasicWave" mode, One thing I have put on the table that should make things better is a Waveform Copy - Paste function, So from the UI you could replay waveforms, But I suspect that will take a few firmware updates to become a reality.

This thing can be more than a toy (output voltage limitations aside), you just can't really pull off the fun stuff without using SCPI commands at this point in time, E.g. you can have it setup to repeat a AWG waveform when the frequency counter input gets a trigger event, so you run this to the scope trigger output and can have something that can burst out a AWG waveform on a pattern match of the scope, The functionality is there, I just cant use it without connecting a PC to it.....

To be flat out honest, I bought the device and Licence for my 1000X-E scope, Its useful, but the limitations to the UI hurt when the license is 20% of the purchase price of that scope itself, and feels more like 0.1% of the dev time.
 

Online tautech

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 15977
  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. NZ Siglent Distributor
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #104 on: February 04, 2019, 10:42:14 am »
Still confusing…
So you must buy the HW (SAG1021) and SW (License) to use the AWG functionality?
Yes.
Quote
Or to use the SAG1021 itself?
Only for Bode plot.........but check the documentation as I believe its not been enabled in SDS5kX firmware just yet.
Quote
So the scopes are only the frontpanel for it, right ?
Correct, there's some usage examples in the User manual.
Quote
The option cost 296€ (incl. VAT) plus the SAG1021 for 165€....
Why should I spend about 460€ for a 1-Ch AWG with limited possibilities....
Where ?  :-//
US pricing for SDS2kX-E and 1kX-E SAG1021 HW and SW license is $ 288 ...........sure no taxes but 460 Euro ?  :o  :scared:
It makes no sense the AWG HW option and licensing for SDS5kX should/could be that much more expensive.  :-//

Edit to add
Just hunted out SDS5kX pricing and shocked !
SAG1021 HW             $ 159 (as expected)
SDS-5000X-FG SW $$$ 289  :o  Seems like an error.................
« Last Edit: February 04, 2019, 10:53:01 am by tautech »
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 

Offline 2N3055

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2085
  • Country: hr
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #105 on: February 04, 2019, 10:49:06 am »
Where ?  :-//
US pricing for SDS2kX-E and 1kX-E SAG1021 HW and SW license is $ 288 ...........sure no taxes but 460 Euro ?  :o  :scared:
It makes no sense the AWG HW option and licensing for SDS5kX should/could be that much more expensive.  :-//

Batronix lists it as € 296.31 incl. 19% VAT + € 165.41 incl. 19% VAT. Same in Batterfly, few € up or down.

 

Online tautech

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 15977
  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. NZ Siglent Distributor
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #106 on: February 04, 2019, 11:05:14 am »
Where ?  :-//
US pricing for SDS2kX-E and 1kX-E SAG1021 HW and SW license is $ 288 ...........sure no taxes but 460 Euro ?  :o  :scared:
It makes no sense the AWG HW option and licensing for SDS5kX should/could be that much more expensive.  :-//

Batronix lists it as € 296.31 incl. 19% VAT + € 165.41 incl. 19% VAT. Same in Batterfly, few € up or down.
Thanks but that doesn't explain why just the FG SW option for SDS5kX is the same price as for both the SAG1021 HW and SW license for SDS2kX-E and 1kX-E models.
Seems wrong ......we dealers need ask some questions.
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 

Online Performa01

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 815
  • Country: at
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #107 on: February 04, 2019, 11:38:03 am »
The RTB2K with History(ext mem) has 160 x 4(320 x 2) Mpts. Not sure about siglent but you get the same memory for logic also but that's not really 1:1. The RTM has something like 200 x 4Mpts.
Okay, I've overlooked the additional memory that comes with the Segmented Memory option. To be honest I didn't expect an A-brand to be so generous, but then again, R&S seems to be different ;)

You can say they're conservative but the datasheet says what it says.  :-//
I have measured the actual channel isolation at 580MHz on my pre-production unit and the worst case scenario was from Ch.3 (FS) to Ch.4, both at 5mV/div, resulting in -53dB crosstalk. In all other cases, the isolation was significantly higher:
Ch.1 (5mV/div – 1V/div, FS) to Ch.4, isolation 79-90dB
Ch.2 (5mV/div – 1V/div, FS) to Ch.4, isolation 64-108dB
Ch.3 (5mV/div – 1V/div, FS) to Ch.4, isolation 53-88dB

Actually thinking about segmented memory reminded me... The Siglent was something like 2us and the RTM is 200ns between acqs, that's pretty significant.
Yes it is. BTW, actually measured lowest re-arm time between acquistions was 1.49µs for the SDS5104X.

Generally, the SDS5000X cannot be both cheaper and better than all the competition and in every regard. While its waveform update rate might not be particularly fast, I’m positive the functionality of the SDS5000X will look rather good once it’s feature-complete.

Why do they call the AWG option "built-in" in the header/title of that section, when it seems to actually be an external device, just being controlled by the scope software (like 2000X-E, which has "module" in the corresponding title)?
That’s just a copy & paste error. There have been several such occurrences in the datasheet, most of them got corrected, but the Header on page 7 has been overlooked…


Those who think the SAG1021 + SW Option is not very attractive, you are not alone. To be honest, I don’t understand the whole idea of a built-in (or external USB powered brick) AWG. On a small portable service oscilloscope okay, where the tech doesn’t want to carry more items than absolutely necessary. But on a lab instrument, especially one that is not intended for the hobbyist market?

If I were in that situation, I would of course get something more versatile and powerful instead, like the SDG1032X (or above, especially for a 1GHz scope), without a second thought.

A complete review of the SAG1021 (well, at least the HW and what’s accessible through the scope UI) can be found in this thread, replies #48/49:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1432665/#msg1432665
 

Offline Martin72

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 523
  • Country: de
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #108 on: February 04, 2019, 12:12:56 pm »
Correct Martin, to use it via the scope UI you need to buy both the device, and the licence,

whereas if you have an external siglent AWG, you can still use bode plot mode with it out of the box. Its only the control of the USB AWG from the scope UI that would are paying for with the license.

Therefore welectron (german siglent distributor) did a suggest to buy a stand-alone AWG.
I bought a SDG1032X, it got two channels and much better specs.
And cost 403 €.....

Online tautech

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 15977
  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. NZ Siglent Distributor
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #109 on: February 04, 2019, 03:41:52 pm »
Those who think the SAG1021 + SW Option is not very attractive, you are not alone. To be honest, I don’t understand the whole idea of a built-in (or external USB powered brick) AWG. On a small portable service oscilloscope okay, where the tech doesn’t want to carry more items than absolutely necessary. But on a lab instrument, especially one that is not intended for the hobbyist market?

If I were in that situation, I would of course get something more versatile and powerful instead, like the SDG1032X (or above, especially for a 1GHz scope), without a second thought.
Agreed, on all counts, however it's not like Siglent hasn't later added AWG HW into a DSO as they did for SDS1000X models where it is an additional internal PCB, first it was called the X-S then later the 1000X+ that offered MSO and internal AWG.
These are still available and the basic SDS1000X MSO model without internal AWG is just some $ 240 less than SDS1000X+ models with the additional internal AWG PCB.

For the SDS2000 and 2000X models AWG HW was incorporated into the mainboard in all models from first release.
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 

Offline 0xdeadbeef

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1313
  • Country: de
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #110 on: February 04, 2019, 06:01:55 pm »
Talking of weird pricing: Batronix offers the update "SDS-5000X-4BW10" from 4ch 500MHz to 1GHz for 320€  ;D
Sadly a mistake obviously. I guess they meant 3200€ :(
Trying is the first step towards failure - Homer J. Simpson
 

Online maginnovision

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1092
  • Country: us
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #111 on: February 04, 2019, 06:22:09 pm »
Talking of weird pricing: Batronix offers the update "SDS-5000X-4BW10" from 4ch 500MHz to 1GHz for 320€  ;D
Sadly a mistake obviously. I guess they meant 3200€ :(

No, I think that's the pricing.
 

Offline 0xdeadbeef

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1313
  • Country: de
Trying is the first step towards failure - Homer J. Simpson
 

Offline tv84

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 858
  • Country: pt
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #113 on: February 04, 2019, 06:27:52 pm »
These romans are crazy!!!  It shouldn't be one or the other but... big/strange marketing strategies in play!

Batronix (VAT included):

Siglent SDS5052X - 5484.71€
Siglent SDS5102X - 6222.51€

Why pay 3.200€ for the upgrade?

I think, we'll soon start seeing this option also:  or Best Offer    :-DD
« Last Edit: February 04, 2019, 06:34:40 pm by tv84 »
 

Online maginnovision

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1092
  • Country: us
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #114 on: February 04, 2019, 06:28:27 pm »
Nah...
http://www.saelig.com/product/sds-5000x-4bw10.htm

Yea, that's odd because the upfront cost difference for 500-1000 with same channels is way less.
 

Offline 0xdeadbeef

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1313
  • Country: de
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #115 on: February 04, 2019, 07:04:14 pm »
The upgrade option is usually more expensive than the price difference between two models of different bandwidth. Still, this upgrade seems to be especially expensive.
@tv84: you compared the 2ch prices, but this is the 4ch upgrade. The 4ch price difference of the 500MHz and 1GHz model is 1666€. So the upgrade options costs about twice of that.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2019, 07:12:36 pm by 0xdeadbeef »
Trying is the first step towards failure - Homer J. Simpson
 

Offline tv84

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 858
  • Country: pt
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #116 on: February 04, 2019, 07:33:46 pm »
The upgrade option is usually more expensive than the price difference between two models of different bandwidth. Still, this upgrade seems to be especially expensive.
@tv84: you compared the 2ch prices, but this is the 4ch upgrade. The 4ch price difference of the 500MHz and 1GHz model is 1666€. So the upgrade options costs about twice of that.

I would understand that if it was a hardware upgrade.

Yes, I compared the 2ch but the 4ch was also not 3.2k.

It's a pricing strategy as any other...
 

Online egonotto

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 220
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #117 on: February 04, 2019, 11:09:02 pm »
Hello,



Actually thinking about segmented memory reminded me... The Siglent was something like 2us and the RTM is 200ns between acqs, that's pretty significant.
Yes it is. BTW, actually measured lowest re-arm time between acquistions was 1.49µs for the SDS5104X.




In the datasheet of the RTM3000 there is:
 "continuous recording of waveforms in acquisition memory without interruption due to
visualization; blind time between consecutive acquisitions less than 1.5 μs"

I can not find 200ns.

And the total memory (per channel) is "At interleaved mode." in the datasheet of the RTM3000
Is this in the RTB2000 different or forget they the "At interleaved mode." in the datasheet of the RTB2000?

Best regards
egonotto

« Last Edit: February 04, 2019, 11:20:12 pm by egonotto »
 

Online Performa01

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 815
  • Country: at
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #118 on: February 05, 2019, 12:17:08 am »
Hello,

In the datasheet of the RTM3000 there is:
 "continuous recording of waveforms in acquisition memory without interruption due to
visualization; blind time between consecutive acquisitions less than 1.5 μs"

I can not find 200ns.

And the total memory (per channel) is "At interleaved mode." in the datasheet of the RTM3000
Is this in the RTB2000 different or forget they the "At interleaved mode." in the datasheet of the RTB2000?
What version of the datasheet do you look at?

Version 06.00, January 2019 (on page 24):
Quote
Fast-segmented mode continuous recording of waveforms in acquisition memory without interruption due to visualization; blind time between consecutive acquisitions less than 200 ns
(up to 2 000 000 waveforms/s)

The waveform update rate in fast segmented mode is really impressive - less so during regular operation, where it's just 64k wfm/s.

Yes, the total memory is specified for interleaved mode (= per channel pair) and there it can reach a maximum of 428Mpts, but only in segmented mode and only with the K15 Option (which is some €1000,- without tax). For regular acquisition it is just 80Mpts (interleaved).

The RTB2000 has 2.5µs re-arm time (300k wfm/s) in fast segmented mode and up to 320Mpts memory (interleaved).
 

Online egonotto

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 220
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #119 on: February 05, 2019, 01:30:01 am »
Hello,

thanks for the answer.

I used the datasheet from Batronix it is Version 05.00,  December 2017.

It is an impressive improvement.

Best regard
egonotto
 

Offline 0xdeadbeef

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1313
  • Country: de
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #120 on: February 05, 2019, 06:55:28 pm »
Actually thinking about segmented memory reminded me... The Siglent was something like 2us and the RTM is 200ns between acqs, that's pretty significant.
Yes it is. BTW, actually measured lowest re-arm time between acquistions was 1.49µs for the SDS5104X.
Interesting though that the SDSX5000 datasheet states a minimum (!) dead time of 2µs.
In contrast to this, the 200ns given for the RTM3K is the maximum value. So actually comparing both value doesn't make much sense anyway.
Still, while the 200ns dead/blind time sure is impressive, I don't think 2µs or so would be much of an issue in 99.9% of all the cases where you use segmented memory.
The only thing that concerns me is that Siglent doesn't specify a maximum value at all which makes it impossible to judge if this is a major issue or not.
Trying is the first step towards failure - Homer J. Simpson
 

Offline 2N3055

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2085
  • Country: hr
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #121 on: February 05, 2019, 07:19:59 pm »
I'm confused:
That RTM3000 /RTA4000 spec says :

continuous recording of waveforms in acquisition memory without interruption due to
visualization; blind time between consecutive acquisitions less than 200 ns
(up to 2 000 000 waveforms/s)


They should decide whether is:
200 ns and (up to 5 000 000 waveforms/s)
or
500 ns and (up to 2 000 000 waveforms/s)

 
 

Offline nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17630
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #122 on: February 05, 2019, 07:28:21 pm »
I'm confused:
That RTM3000 /RTA4000 spec says :

continuous recording of waveforms in acquisition memory without interruption due to
visualization; blind time between consecutive acquisitions less than 200 ns
(up to 2 000 000 waveforms/s)


They should decide whether is:
200 ns and (up to 5 000 000 waveforms/s)
or
500 ns and (up to 2 000 000 waveforms/s)
There will be a minimum amount of time needed to do the acquisitions as well (time per sample * number of samples). So the total time per frame equals to the acquisition time plus the dead time.

Interesting though that the SDSX5000 datasheet states a minimum (!) dead time of 2µs.
In contrast to this, the 200ns given for the RTM3K is the maximum value. So actually comparing both value doesn't make much sense anyway. or not.
IMHO Siglent probably got minimum and maximum confused. It doesn't make sense to specify minimum dead time. Maybe they reasoned the smallest guaranteed dead time is 2us and thought they should put that under minimum because it is the smallest (which is wrong ofcourse).
« Last Edit: February 05, 2019, 07:31:08 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online maginnovision

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1092
  • Country: us
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #123 on: February 05, 2019, 07:29:03 pm »
I'm confused:
That RTM3000 /RTA4000 spec says :

continuous recording of waveforms in acquisition memory without interruption due to
visualization; blind time between consecutive acquisitions less than 200 ns
(up to 2 000 000 waveforms/s)


They should decide whether is:
200 ns and (up to 5 000 000 waveforms/s)
or
500 ns and (up to 2 000 000 waveforms/s)

Presumably they assume it takes time to capture data, it's not 100% re arm time.
 

Offline 2N3055

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2085
  • Country: hr
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #124 on: February 05, 2019, 07:39:45 pm »

There will be a minimum amount of time needed to do the acquisitions as well (time per sample * number of samples). So the total time per frame equals to the acquisition time plus the dead time.

Of course, but that still means that blind time + sweep cannot be less than 500 ns.
And if you set it to 10ns /div that is 120 ns +200 ns = 320 ns.
Blind time is not only rearm time, but rearm + processing overhead time.
Max. 2 Mwaveforms means a trigger every 500 ns.

It's nitpicking, I know but specifications are specification.

« Last Edit: February 05, 2019, 07:45:27 pm by 2N3055 »
 

Offline 0xdeadbeef

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1313
  • Country: de
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #125 on: February 05, 2019, 07:40:54 pm »
Interesting though that the SDSX5000 datasheet states a minimum (!) dead time of 2µs.
In contrast to this, the 200ns given for the RTM3K is the maximum value. So actually comparing both value doesn't make much sense anyway. or not.
IMHO Siglent probably got minimum and maximum confused. It doesn't make sense to specify minimum dead time. Maybe they reasoned the smallest guaranteed dead time is 2us and thought they should put that under minimum because it is the smallest (which is wrong ofcourse).
I would tend to agree, but they state it as minimum twice in the data sheet.
1) "The dead time between segments can be as small as 2 μs."
2) "dead time = 2 μs min"
Trying is the first step towards failure - Homer J. Simpson
 

Offline nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17630
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #126 on: February 05, 2019, 07:46:28 pm »
I'm pretty sure Siglent got minimum and maximum confused.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline 2N3055

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2085
  • Country: hr
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #127 on: February 05, 2019, 07:56:55 pm »
Specification  for SDS5000X says:

Waveform Capture Rate (Max.)
110,000 wfm/s (normal mode),480,000 wfm/s (sequence mode)
that is slightly over 2 us between segments.
 

Offline 0xdeadbeef

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1313
  • Country: de
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #128 on: February 05, 2019, 07:57:54 pm »
I'm pretty sure Siglent got minimum and maximum confused.
I hope you're right, but then they also got "small" and "big" confused. So these guys must be rather confused.
Trying is the first step towards failure - Homer J. Simpson
 

Online Performa01

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 815
  • Country: at
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #129 on: February 08, 2019, 11:53:27 pm »
I'm pretty sure Siglent got minimum and maximum confused.
I hope you're right, but then they also got "small" and "big" confused. So these guys must be rather confused.
Well, perhaps the folks at Keysight are confused too (quote from DSOX3000T datasheet):
Quote
Segmented memory optimizes available memory for data streams that have long dead times between activity. Maximum segments = 1000. Re-arm time = 1 μs (minimum time between trigger events)

I have double checked sequence recording with the latest firmware and found the minimum re-arm time to be slightly improved to <1.4µs.

The maximum waveform update rate in sequence mode was originally specified as 500kwfm/s but I had to request a down-rating to 480kwfm/s (as in the current datasheet) because I could not get more than some 490kwfm/s maximum with an early firmware. Now I’m glad to see the original spec is met with the most recent firmware at >517kwfm/s.

The maximum number of segments is 100.000, as specified.

BTW, the R&S RTM3000 with RTM-K15 option does not offer more total acquisition memory than the Siglent SDS5000X:

Siglent SDS5000X provides >400Mpts for record lengths of 50kpts to 25Mpts, with a maximum of 433.5Mpts at a record length of 500kpts (>=430Mpts for record lengths of 1, 2.5 and 5 Mpts).

R&S RTM3000: >400Mpts for record lengths of 200kpts to 20Mpts, with a maximum of 428Mpts at a record length of 2Mpts.

There’s still the fact that the SDS5000X can have record lengths up to 250Mpts, whereas the RTM3000 is limited to 80Mpts.

 
The following users thanked this post: tautech, 2N3055

Offline nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17630
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #130 on: February 09, 2019, 12:40:37 am »
The problem with deep memory is that a powerful processor is needed to do something useful with it. It is interesting to see how the SDS5000X deals with decoding and math for example. Doing a search in a trace of 250Mpts may take forever. The RTM3000 already needs a few seconds to search through 80Mpts for a simple condition. With great memory comes the need for great processing power.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online Rerouter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4311
  • Country: au
  • Question Everything... Except This Statement
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #131 on: February 09, 2019, 03:26:48 am »
I feel I should ask this, If the decoding done by the FPGA, or by the ARM CPU?

Seeing as they are sticking to simple protocols I suspect FPGA based, in which case it can probably decode as fast as the sample rate, but I'm curious.
 

Online Rerouter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4311
  • Country: au
  • Question Everything... Except This Statement
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #132 on: February 09, 2019, 09:32:08 am »
Don't know what of this is known, but there have been some not easily navigable pages appear for all the purchasable Option Codes.

SDS-5000X-4BW05
SDS-5000X-2BW05
SDS-5000X-4BW10
SDS-5000X-2BW10
SDS-5000X-FG
SDS-5000X-16LA
SDS-5000X-I2S
SDS-5000X-FlexRay
SDS-5000X-CANFD
SDS-5000X-1553B
 

Online Performa01

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 815
  • Country: at
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #133 on: February 09, 2019, 11:16:53 am »
The problem with deep memory is that a powerful processor is needed to do something useful with it. It is interesting to see how the SDS5000X deals with decoding and math for example. Doing a search in a trace of 250Mpts may take forever. The RTM3000 already needs a few seconds to search through 80Mpts for a simple condition. With great memory comes the need for great processing power.

One of the main reasons for deep memory is the legitimate request for analyzing signals that contain vastly different frequency components at the same time, such as narrow pulses at low repetition rate, without the need to bother with crouches like peak detect, which would destroy the original waveform and is therefore utterly useless for any kind of signal analysis.

The SDS5000X can maintain full sample rate up to 5ms/div, so we can capture a 50ms record without losing any detail (which can be inspected in zoom mode) and without giving a second thought about aliasing.


SDS5104X_Mem_250Mpts_Zoom_1ns

Attached is a short (5s) video in an archive “Search 02.zip” that contains the mp4 and demonstrates the search speed by showing a sine wave with periodic exponential increase in amplitude, which also leads to an increasing slew rate. The scope triggers on the sync signal of the signal generator, while the search function looks for edges that have a slew rate faster than some 7mV/µs. These settings are not entirely unambiguous on purpose, because this causes the search function to be undecided, hence toggle randomly between considering the second to last rising edge as a hit or not and each individual search yields different results. Because of this, we can get a good visual impression and the search function runs at least 15 times in this short video, so it certainly doesn’t take “forever”.


I feel I should ask this, If the decoding done by the FPGA, or by the ARM CPU?

Seeing as they are sticking to simple protocols I suspect FPGA based, in which case it can probably decode as fast as the sample rate, but I'm curious.
If these protocols are “simple”, which ones would be complicated?

Triggering is performed in hardware (FPGA), since it has to work in real time.

Decoding is a task for the MCU, because it is done after the acquisition of a record is complete. Of course the decoders can use the full sample rate, but there always has to be a bit of oversampling, since the internal sample clock is asynchronous with regard to the serial data stream. Traditionally, the decoders don’t need much oversampling.

 

Offline 0xdeadbeef

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1313
  • Country: de
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #134 on: February 09, 2019, 11:23:54 am »
Some scopes are said to use "HW based" decoding. I could imagine the FPGA is used to detect/measure periods from the raw sampled data. It sure speeds up a SW decoder a lot if you can jump from edge to edge instead of going from sample to sample.
Trying is the first step towards failure - Homer J. Simpson
 

Online Rerouter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4311
  • Country: au
  • Question Everything... Except This Statement
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #135 on: February 09, 2019, 11:36:38 am »
By simple I meant mainly confined to single ended signals, and work off a high / low state, e.g. something that FPGA's specialize in.

Still makes me glad to know its software which can be patched, not bit streams that need to be reverse engineered.
 

Offline 0xdeadbeef

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1313
  • Country: de
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #136 on: February 09, 2019, 11:44:23 am »
Well, perhaps the folks at Keysight are confused too (quote from DSOX3000T datasheet):
Quote
Segmented memory optimizes available memory for data streams that have long dead times between activity. Maximum segments = 1000. Re-arm time = 1 μs (minimum time between trigger events)
This is perfectly correct. The maximum dead/blind time defines the minimum time between trigger events.
However, the siglent data sheet says "The dead time between segments can be as small as 2 μs." which is at least inartfully expressed. Maybe they are trying to say "the time between trigger evens can be as small as 2µs" but by using the term "dead time", they kinda inverted the meaning.
Trying is the first step towards failure - Homer J. Simpson
 

Online tautech

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 15977
  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. NZ Siglent Distributor
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #137 on: February 28, 2019, 09:22:11 pm »
New publicly available firmware for the SDS5000X series.

This may be the release version as there are no items in the changelog.  :-//

Version V0.8.0R1B5
38.6 MB
http://old.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Firmware&Software/firmware/SDS5000X_0.8.0R1B5_EN.zip
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 

Offline rf-loop

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3069
  • Country: fi
  • Starting with DLL21
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #138 on: March 01, 2019, 06:51:37 pm »
This may be the release version as there are no items in the changelog.  :-//
Version V0.8.0R1B5

Perhaps or then not... ;)
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory  is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
It is much easier to think an apple fall to the ground than to think that the earth and the apple will begin to move toward each other and collide.
 
The following users thanked this post: tautech

Offline nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17630
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #139 on: March 01, 2019, 06:54:44 pm »
How can they thouroughly test releases which are released with so little time in between?  :-// Who says fixing one bug doesn't introduce another one?
« Last Edit: March 01, 2019, 09:01:56 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online Performa01

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 815
  • Country: at
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #140 on: March 01, 2019, 09:33:24 pm »
How can they thouroughly test releases which are released with so little time in between?  :-// Who says fixing one bug doesn't introduce another one?
Oh yes this would be a valid point - if there were any releases at all. But as anyone really interested in the topic can see, there are none as yet (20190301/22:30):

https://www.siglenteu.com/service-and-support/firmware-software/digital-oscilloscopes/#sds5000x-series

https://www.siglentamerica.com/service-and-support/firmware-software/digital-oscilloscopes/#sds5000x-series

Just because quite obviously it has become fashionable to advertise internal beta releases, this does not mean that there will be any official release without thorough production testing.
 

Offline bugi

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 250
  • Country: fi
  • Hobbyist using the ultra slow and unsure method
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #141 on: March 01, 2019, 11:47:43 pm »
How can they thouroughly test releases which are released with so little time in between?  :-// Who says fixing one bug doesn't introduce another one?
It depends on the type of bugs, too. For example, fixing typos or a small change UI color are obviously quite small and independent changes, and easy to "test" (more like "check/confirm that the change got in"). Another example might be e.g. simple fix on DSP math with samples; changing sample values a bit will obviously not break the rest of the math chain (assuming the math is done in a usual way, using "normal" numbers and functions). In these cases, it would be enough to just check that the change/fix itself works.

But of course there are plenty of bugs/changes that (can) mess up a lot, too.

As part of longer development process, devs can choose to e.g. bring lots of easy changes first (with quickly made version(s)), collecting bigger changes to a specific later version which then needs more testing.  At least we do this kind of development with our software, so that we don't have to do the multi-day testing ordeal on every release; small independent changes can be tested as part of the fix process of each individual issue, and a release then rolled out in few hours with few cursory checks.

And the internal-versions vs. actual public releases -stuff as already mentioned by Performa01. Although considering the history, I am quite skeptic on the "...not mean that there will be any official release without thorough production testing" -part :P  But one can always hope for better..
 
The following users thanked this post: Martin72

Offline nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17630
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #142 on: March 01, 2019, 11:58:44 pm »
How can they thouroughly test releases which are released with so little time in between?  :-// Who says fixing one bug doesn't introduce another one?
It depends on the type of bugs, too. For example, fixing typos or a small change UI color are obviously quite small and independent changes, and easy to "test" (more like "check/confirm that the change got in"). Another example might be e.g. simple fix on DSP math with samples; changing sample values a bit will obviously not break the rest of the math chain (assuming the math is done in a usual way, using "normal" numbers and functions). In these cases, it would be enough to just check that the change/fix itself works.
I wouldn't bet my life on that. I've seen weird bugs pop up due to simple fixes. Sure pre-release versions aren't fully tested but look at the lift rf-loop posted. There is about 5 weeks between V0.8.0R1B5 and the previous version. No way there has been some serious development AND testing going on in such a short time frame. I'm involved in software engineering projects myself and much simpler software products take a week to test.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online tautech

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 15977
  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. NZ Siglent Distributor
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #143 on: March 02, 2019, 12:13:11 am »
How can they thouroughly test releases which are released with so little time in between?  :-// Who says fixing one bug doesn't introduce another one?
It depends on the type of bugs, too. For example, fixing typos or a small change UI color are obviously quite small and independent changes, and easy to "test" (more like "check/confirm that the change got in"). Another example might be e.g. simple fix on DSP math with samples; changing sample values a bit will obviously not break the rest of the math chain (assuming the math is done in a usual way, using "normal" numbers and functions). In these cases, it would be enough to just check that the change/fix itself works.
I wouldn't bet my life on that. I've seen weird bugs pop up due to simple fixes. Sure pre-release versions aren't fully tested but look at the lift rf-loop posted. There is about 5 weeks between V0.8.0R1B5 and the previous version. No way there has been some serious development AND testing going on in such a short time frame. I'm involved in software engineering projects myself and much simpler software products take a week to test.
Sure, for a small team.

Current SDS5000X beta testers are worldwide and yes a few are EEVblog members too, some of very long standing and experience. Knowing just a few of them I have full faith that they in conjunction with the factory know exactly what they are doing.

Of course it seems the FW version I linked was a beta version (B5) that one might assume has been tested well enough for V08.1R1 shown in rf-loop's list to now be the latest version.

Why was B5 placed on the factory website firmware page, well a 38.6MB file might offer issues to send as an email attachment through some email providers.
Anyways, it's just conjecture as now V08.1R1 seems like the latest version for the beta testers to test with.
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 

Offline nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17630
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #144 on: March 02, 2019, 12:43:32 am »
Letting a few people do random testing isn't software testing but stabbing around in the dark. When I do an oscilloscope review I spend about 20 to 30 hours on testing and I'm not even close to covering 10% of all features. Real software testing means going through each and every function & feature for every possible permutation according to a test plan. For a modern oscilloscope this will take at least 3 to 4 weeks fulltime and it needs to be repeated for every release. And even then the testers won't be able to catch all bugs (which is where beta-testers come in). Test plans usually evolve over time to also catch the more elusive bugs. Software testing is expensive & time consuming and it is tempting to skip it but it will come back and haunt you if you do skip software testing.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2019, 12:52:40 am by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline bugi

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 250
  • Country: fi
  • Hobbyist using the ultra slow and unsure method
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #145 on: March 02, 2019, 09:39:34 am »
Letting a few people do random testing isn't software testing but stabbing around in the dark.
That sentence assumes that the few people random testing is all there is. I'd think they do much more (still not necessarily enough).

Quote
When I do an oscilloscope review I spend about 20 to 30 hours on testing and I'm not even close to covering 10% of all features. Real software testing means going through each and every function & feature for every possible permutation according to a test plan. For a modern oscilloscope this will take at least 3 to 4 weeks fulltime and it needs to be repeated for every release. And even then the testers won't be able to catch all bugs (which is where beta-testers come in). Test plans usually evolve over time to also catch the more elusive bugs. Software testing is expensive & time consuming and it is tempting to skip it but it will come back and haunt you if you do skip software testing.
The last sentence I can agree 90%. It is often more expensive to skip some testing, yet in many cases much cheaper to do risk management, skip some testing and do few fixes afterwards. It is details of where one can vs. should not skip some testing where I apparently disagree.

The need for full multi-week (or in our case "just" few days) testing only applies when there is either no previous testing done at all (like the situation for an external reviewer, or first release), or when the system is critical (say, space ships or nuclear power facility or such), or if risk management indicates so (like typically for so called "major releases" which have likely collected many changes that have inter-dependencies). As I mentioned before, in practical projects, simple fixes that can be seen clearly to be independent from the rest of the system do not create a need to make full 100% all permutations included -type of testing. Doing full tests for any tiny change would be like shooting a fly with a tank, there is simply no sanity in doing do so in most software projects, including oscilloscopes. (Unless that scope goes into space/nuclear power facility, but in that case, the responsibility and coverage of testing is managed by that project, not by the scope manufacturer).

Sure, sometimes a developer makes a mistake and a "clearly simple" fix ends up having side-effects after all, but these are (at least for us) very rare, and typically are not a disaster even if they slip through. And even when we know a change can have wider effects we still limit testing, simply for keeping the costs sane. Much cheaper to have few micro-level releases afterwards (typically come out in few days between each after a major release) than do the 100% testing beforehand.

That is simple common sense and economic thinking. I'm not the budget manager, and I'm actually one of the most testing-demanding coders in our sub-organization, but even then, I do apply some common sense when deciding testing coverage (per fix and per release).

We do run automated tests (unit tests and some integration tests) on every release, they only take about 2 minutes of work to start and a 50 minutes coffee-break. But those tests won't really cover a lot, especially not UI.


And in the end, it is the customers that define the level of testing they want. If they want 100% testing for every little thing, they need to pay for it. None of our customers have been ready to do so, not even close. Siglent/Rigol customers seem to be typically even less willing to do so.


In short, the "short" time between versions is not (necessarily) a problem here, even if they had been public releases. I'd be fine with even public releases with just one day in between, if the latter release's changelog states merely "changed words chanel->channel, current->selected".

My negative "feelings" towards Siglent's software dev side has grown mostly from them (previously) letting through many bugs that are so obvious to detect that even quick (thus cheap) testing would have caught them, and many of them being so simple (thus cheap) to fix that there really was no excuse for those bugs ever to be seen in public. But all this external beta-testing stuff seems to indicate Siglent is growing up.
 

Offline 0xdeadbeef

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1313
  • Country: de
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #146 on: March 04, 2019, 11:08:53 pm »
For the record: someone at Batronix finally noticed that the price for the 1GHz update was wrong. It's 2.450,21€ now including VAT.
Trying is the first step towards failure - Homer J. Simpson
 

Offline tv84

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 858
  • Country: pt
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #147 on: March 04, 2019, 11:48:25 pm »
This probably is old news but, according to the bitstreams, it has 2  Xilinx Artix-7 XC7A200T (Part Name: 7a200tffg1156) and a Xilinx Zynq-7020.
 

Offline nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17630
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #148 on: April 08, 2019, 04:08:08 pm »
Did anyone do a really in-depth review / testing yet?
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline 2N3055

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2085
  • Country: hr
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #149 on: April 08, 2019, 04:42:32 pm »
Did anyone do a really in-depth review / testing yet?
Not that I know of.
I would like  to compare it to MSOX3104T but I'm not prepared to buy one just for that.. It would be interesting to see how it compares in real life scenarios.. I really like the general concept..
 

Offline nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17630
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #150 on: April 08, 2019, 04:46:41 pm »
Did anyone do a really in-depth review / testing yet?
Not that I know of.
I would like  to compare it to MSOX3104T but I'm not prepared to buy one just for that.. It would be interesting to see how it compares in real life scenarios.. I really like the general concept..
Same here. For me the big IF is wether the product developers at Siglent got their heads wrapped around decoding the entire acquisition and not just what is on screen.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline 0xdeadbeef

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1313
  • Country: de
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #151 on: April 08, 2019, 05:24:58 pm »
I wonder how the 5000X line is actually selling at this price tag. No matter if it's a good price for its capabilities or not: company customers will stick to major brands at that ("invest" range) price tag and for hobby users it's typically above what one could justify for "now and then" use. I guess it would sell a bit better if the 350MHz version could be upgraded to 1GHz. Then some people might take the risk hoping it will get hacked to 1GHz.
Trying is the first step towards failure - Homer J. Simpson
 

Offline 2N3055

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2085
  • Country: hr
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #152 on: April 08, 2019, 05:59:22 pm »
I wonder how the 5000X line is actually selling at this price tag. No matter if it's a good price for its capabilities or not: company customers will stick to major brands at that ("invest" range) price tag and for hobby users it's typically above what one could justify for "now and then" use. I guess it would sell a bit better if the 350MHz version could be upgraded to 1GHz. Then some people might take the risk hoping it will get hacked to 1GHz.

It needs few good reviews and some time.. Price difference compared to RTM3000 or MSOX3000T is still two for one. At first people will buy one A brand and a few Siglents, until they get confident it works.. They are already doing this with Rigols .. And for general purpose 350 MHz is more than plenty..
 

Offline Martin72

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 523
  • Country: de
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #153 on: April 08, 2019, 08:12:37 pm »
On the batronix website there is one review about:

https://www.batronix.com/versand/oszilloskope/Siglent-SDS5034X.html#yoReviews

( in german )
 
The following users thanked this post: nctnico, 2N3055, Aidanator7000

Offline Aidanator7000

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 18
  • Country: nz
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #154 on: April 09, 2019, 12:01:17 am »
Here is some footage

 

Offline JPortici

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2560
  • Country: it
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #155 on: April 09, 2019, 07:11:49 am »
I wonder how the 5000X line is actually selling at this price tag. No matter if it's a good price for its capabilities or not: company customers will stick to major brands at that ("invest" range) price tag and for hobby users it's typically above what one could justify for "now and then" use. I guess it would sell a bit better if the 350MHz version could be upgraded to 1GHz. Then some people might take the risk hoping it will get hacked to 1GHz.

I am sure it's selling and it's selling because people at workplaces have tested it. All the features WORK and work as intended. I haven't managed to crash mine yet during normal use
 
The following users thanked this post: tautech

Offline tv84

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 858
  • Country: pt
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #156 on: April 29, 2019, 03:00:35 pm »
A few teardown pics.
 
The following users thanked this post: tinhead, Performa01, ggchab, thm_w, kj7e, Martin72

Offline tv84

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 858
  • Country: pt
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #157 on: April 29, 2019, 03:04:14 pm »
pack 2
 
The following users thanked this post: tinhead, Performa01, ggchab, kj7e

Offline tv84

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 858
  • Country: pt
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #158 on: April 29, 2019, 03:05:46 pm »
pack 3
 
The following users thanked this post: tinhead, Performa01, ggchab, kj7e

Offline tv84

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 858
  • Country: pt
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #159 on: April 29, 2019, 03:07:01 pm »
pack 4
 
The following users thanked this post: tinhead, Performa01, ggchab, kj7e

Offline tv84

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 858
  • Country: pt
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #160 on: April 29, 2019, 03:08:04 pm »
pack final
 
The following users thanked this post: tinhead, Performa01, ggchab, kj7e

Offline 0xdeadbeef

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1313
  • Country: de
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #161 on: April 29, 2019, 04:08:19 pm »
So hacking begins now ;) ?

Side note: I notice 5 (partly capacitive) trimmers in the frontend for each channel, even with a placement option for a 6th. Is this still state of the art? I faintly recall the MSO5000 doesn't have any trimmers at all and the calibration etc. is supposed to be stored in some NVRAM.
Trying is the first step towards failure - Homer J. Simpson
 

Offline dermeister

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 19
  • Country: us
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #162 on: April 29, 2019, 04:30:36 pm »
I'm thinking of buying this scope, can anyone of the owners chime in about how they like it so far? I'm particularly interested in UI responsiveness and if it is usable in its current state and not riddled with show stopping bugs.
 

Offline tv84

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 858
  • Country: pt
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #163 on: April 29, 2019, 04:32:25 pm »
They have a SPI flash where the info about calibration, ADC config and license config is stored.

The Debug menu allows access to cal deletion, board temps, HW version, etc.
 

Offline thm_w

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1366
  • Country: ca
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #164 on: April 29, 2019, 08:43:05 pm »
Seven relays on each channel, 500pc quantity they are about $2.40 So we are talking $67 in relays alone! No wonder its not cheap.

https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Omron-Electronics/G6K-2G-Y-DC5
 

Online tautech

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 15977
  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. NZ Siglent Distributor
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #165 on: April 29, 2019, 08:54:43 pm »
Seven relays on each channel, 500pc quantity they are about $2.40 So we are talking $67 in relays alone!
10,000 or 100,000 quantities pricing ?

There are relays in other Siglent equipment.  ;)
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 

Offline nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17630
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #166 on: April 29, 2019, 08:56:15 pm »
@tv84: are the BNCs bolted to the chassis or not?
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline JPortici

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2560
  • Country: it
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #167 on: April 29, 2019, 09:01:43 pm »
I'm thinking of buying this scope, can anyone of the owners chime in about how they like it so far? I'm particularly interested in UI responsiveness and if it is usable in its current state and not riddled with show stopping bugs.
UI is always responsive. The trace will take some time to update during high memory captures at low time/div, or when doing FFT at 2MPts at some time/div settings, but that's to be expected because it phisically takes some time to acquire the waveform.

Make sure you get the latest firmware (rf-loop has posted in the past a picture of the latest available release. i don't know the version that is shipped with units but mine came with an earlier version that lacked histograms,dvm and was prone to crash. I haven't been able to crash the scope a single time with the latest firmware)

To me trigger is solid, the functionality is there and most of the fixes i'd like to see are cosmetic like new touch screen actions.

I can make a small video if you want to see something in particular :)
 

Offline JPortici

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2560
  • Country: it
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #168 on: April 29, 2019, 09:03:33 pm »
BNCs are not bolted. it may have something to do with the active probe interface..
 

Offline Mr Nutts

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 142
  • Country: us
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #169 on: April 29, 2019, 09:37:05 pm »
BNCs are not bolted. it may have something to do with the active probe interface..

As far as I know my Agilent DSO8064 has bolted BNCs despite the active probe interface, they just put the board that has the interface contacts in front of the bolted connector :)

I think I'd rather see bolted connectors on such an expensive scope ;)
 

Offline tv84

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 858
  • Country: pt
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #170 on: April 29, 2019, 09:42:31 pm »
@tv84: are the BNCs bolted to the chassis or not?

"By your command!"
 
The following users thanked this post: Performa01, thm_w, exe, Mr Nutts

Offline nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17630
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #171 on: April 29, 2019, 09:50:19 pm »
Looks good! It may sound minor but since the BNC input connectors on an oscilloscope see a lot of abuse it is better the chassis takes the mechanical stress than the PCB.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline JPortici

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2560
  • Country: it
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #172 on: April 29, 2019, 09:51:38 pm »
Ah nice :D I haven't removed the front panel, i assumed that they weren't
 

Online tautech

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 15977
  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. NZ Siglent Distributor
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #173 on: April 29, 2019, 10:04:40 pm »
Ah nice :D I haven't removed the front panel, i assumed that they weren't
If they weren't it would have been a major departure from Siglent's normal chassis to PCB layout.

I think the industry has well learnt the lesson from the days of Tek TDS210/220 were it was common for the unsecured input BNC's to break off the PCB.  ::)
« Last Edit: April 29, 2019, 10:11:18 pm by tautech »
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 

Online tautech

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 15977
  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. NZ Siglent Distributor
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #174 on: April 29, 2019, 10:24:39 pm »
They have a SPI flash where the info about calibration, ADC config and license config is stored.

The Debug menu allows access to cal deletion, board temps, HW version, etc.
Yours or one on loan ?  ;)
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 

Offline tv84

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 858
  • Country: pt
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #175 on: April 29, 2019, 10:31:50 pm »
Yours or one on loan ?  ;)

Loan. But from what I saw, regarding the implementation side and not so much the operational side, getting one is a real possibility. ;)

I will wait for the operational experts to place their opinions (fanboys from all places  ;D ).
 
The following users thanked this post: tautech, 2N3055

Online tautech

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 15977
  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. NZ Siglent Distributor
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #176 on: May 11, 2019, 10:09:16 am »
For anyone looking at these SDS5000X DSO's and the 1 GHz active probe there is a manual available now for the the SAP1000 probe:
http://old.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Documents/manual/SAP1000_UserManual_UM60010-E01A.pdf
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 

Offline 0xdeadbeef

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1313
  • Country: de
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #177 on: May 11, 2019, 12:47:42 pm »
I wonder if it's a rebrand. If so: any idea of what?
Anyway, the PMK Tetris 1000/1500 (which R&S rebrands as HZO30) is around the same price with slightly better specs and better documentation about the technical specifications.
E.g. the SAP1000 manual just states a probe bandwidth, but no system bandwidth or even if the bandwidth is specified at -3dB.
I'd also expect a graph for the input impedance over frequency and for the input voltage/dynamic range over frequency.
Anyway, it's good to see that Siglent is willing and able to come up with active probes. I wonder if there will also be a high frequency differential probe. Currently, they seem to offer only high voltage differential probes (most likely rebrands).
Trying is the first step towards failure - Homer J. Simpson
 

Online Performa01

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 815
  • Country: at
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #178 on: May 11, 2019, 01:38:53 pm »
Since I've got an engineering sample (= pre production prototype) of the SAP1000 I'd not expect it to be a rebrand.

According to my tests, the specification states the system bandwidth. I've measured >1.1GHz +2/-3dB - and that's been with a pre-production sample of the SDS5104X, which did not entirely meet the frequency response flatness specifications. As a result, the system bandwidth with final units of the SDS5100X (which got a frontend re-design) could be even better.

See my reply #90 here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/at-last-siglent_s-sds5054x-touchscreen/msg2165488/#msg2165488
 

Offline JPortici

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2560
  • Country: it
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #179 on: May 12, 2019, 09:47:07 am »
I wanted to use the webserver via LAN, but i don't have a router in the room. Do i need a crossover cable to connect the PC and the scope?
 

Online Performa01

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 815
  • Country: at
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #180 on: May 12, 2019, 10:04:03 am »
I wanted to use the webserver via LAN, but i don't have a router in the room. Do i need a crossover cable to connect the PC and the scope?
You shouldn't need one - modern network ports on a PC have auto-sensing and swap the lines if necessary.

You can't use the DHCP feature though (because without router there's usually no DHCP server), so you have to configure the ethernet settings manually.
 

Online tautech

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 15977
  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. NZ Siglent Distributor
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #181 on: May 12, 2019, 10:13:18 am »
I wanted to use the webserver via LAN, but i don't have a router in the room. Do i need a crossover cable to connect the PC and the scope?
You shouldn't need one - modern network ports on a PC have auto-sensing and swap the lines if necessary.

You can't use the DHCP feature though (because without router there's usually no DHCP server), so you have to configure the ethernet settings manually.
Correct, connection is very possible but a bit of a PITA to get all the IP stuff set into the scope correctly.

Open a CMD window and 'ipconfig' the PC's settings. Mirror them into the scope and just +1 for the scopes IP. Then Save.
Should work fine.
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 

Offline nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17630
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #182 on: May 12, 2019, 10:21:08 am »
I wanted to use the webserver via LAN, but i don't have a router in the room. Do i need a crossover cable to connect the PC and the scope?
You shouldn't need one - modern network ports on a PC have auto-sensing and swap the lines if necessary.

You can't use the DHCP feature though (because without router there's usually no DHCP server), so you have to configure the ethernet settings manually.
Correct, connection is very possible but a bit of a PITA to get all the IP stuff set into the scope correctly.

Open a CMD window and 'ipconfig' the PC's settings. Mirror them into the scope and just +1 for the scopes IP. Then Save.
Should work fine.
That is very bad advice! If there is no DHCP server to manage the IP addresses then someone has made a plan manually. Better consult with that person before causing all kinds of weird network problems. A duplicate IP address leads to all kinds of odd behaviour in a network.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline JPortici

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2560
  • Country: it
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #183 on: May 12, 2019, 12:12:30 pm »
I see. Still, it worked and i was able to control the scope from the webserver :-+
Unfortunately my knowledge of netwroks is sub-zero so i can only say i'm glad this workaround works
 

Offline 2N3055

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2085
  • Country: hr
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #184 on: May 12, 2019, 02:20:57 pm »
If you are just connecting scope and PC directly with cable you only have to make sure scope IP is different from PC's.. So PC's IP+1 is just fine.
 

Offline Martin72

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 523
  • Country: de
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #185 on: May 12, 2019, 07:21:43 pm »
If I understand the manual right, it´s got a free definable and moveable measuring-gate (A, B, AB).
If it´s so, it will be very interesting for our testdepartement since we know, that lecroy doesn´t have this very useable feature anymore on their modern scopes.


Online tautech

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 15977
  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. NZ Siglent Distributor
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #186 on: May 12, 2019, 08:57:34 pm »
I see. Still, it worked and i was able to control the scope from the webserver :-+
Unfortunately my knowledge of netwroks is sub-zero so i can only say i'm glad this workaround works
Great, yes I know it's a bit of a PITA but for a 'one off' it works just fine.
If you have to do it frequently grab a cheap little 4 port switch to have close to your PC and still have full your LAN and DHCP by just plugging into the switch.
They are so cheap these days the investment pays for itself very quickly with time saved.

I have in the past used a spare ADSL 4 port router but they can add another set of IP issues ................
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 

Offline 0xdeadbeef

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1313
  • Country: de
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #187 on: May 12, 2019, 09:46:34 pm »
If I understand the manual right, it´s got a free definable and moveable measuring-gate (A, B, AB).
If it´s so, it will be very interesting for our testdepartement since we know, that lecroy doesn´t have this very useable feature anymore on their modern scopes.
Hm. Even the lowish WS3000 features gates for measurements. The current 12bit HDO line has gates for sure, all the previous Wavesurfers and Waverunners I ever used in the last ten years had movable gates. On "my" 6zi at work you can drag the gate cursors with the touch screen.
For sure it's nice that the SDS5000 seems to have inherited the gate feature from LeCroy. AFAIK no HP/Agilent/Keysight scope I ever used had this feature and they usually measure from the screen buffer anyway.
Trying is the first step towards failure - Homer J. Simpson
 

Offline 2N3055

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2085
  • Country: hr
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #188 on: May 12, 2019, 10:07:02 pm »
If I understand the manual right, it´s got a free definable and moveable measuring-gate (A, B, AB).
If it´s so, it will be very interesting for our testdepartement since we know, that lecroy doesn´t have this very useable feature anymore on their modern scopes.
Hm. Even the lowish WS3000 features gates for measurements. The current 12bit HDO line has gates for sure, all the previous Wavesurfers and Waverunners I ever used in the last ten years had movable gates. On "my" 6zi at work you can drag the gate cursors with the touch screen.
For sure it's nice that the SDS5000 seems to have inherited the gate feature from LeCroy. AFAIK no HP/Agilent/Keysight scope I ever used had this feature and they usually measure from the screen buffer anyway.

Keysight 3000T measures from whole screen width, from a zoomed portion, or gated between cursors..
And not from screen buffer, but from a measurement buffer that is decimated and some 64k in length. So not full data (which is a shame), but in practice good enough.
Same with 64k for FFT.
 

Offline JPortici

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2560
  • Country: it
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #189 on: May 13, 2019, 05:56:27 am »
Yes, there is gated measurement and yes it works.
I suggest you use it with long acquisitions, because measurements and math trace are calculated on full memory buffer and there can be significant blind time between acquisitions with all measurements on. altough i don't think i ever used measure-all in my life for anything other than checking it out

The FFT instead doesn't have this problem.. 512k-2Mpts FFT will take 100s of ms to be computed but it won't add noticeable blind time.. My guess is that FFT is done in the FPGA while the measurements are all on the CPU side

If there is one thing i miss from the rigol is the cursors that track measurements..
And there are some measurements missing i forgot to ask if/when they wil be added, basically slew rate
« Last Edit: May 13, 2019, 05:58:11 am by JPortici »
 

Online Rerouter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4311
  • Country: au
  • Question Everything... Except This Statement
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #190 on: May 13, 2019, 07:04:44 am »
There is a tracking cursor mode. But would need a better description of how you used it to know if its suitable
 

Offline JPortici

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2560
  • Country: it
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #191 on: May 13, 2019, 07:15:43 am »
tektronix style, you move X and Y is tracking the waveform
 

Offline 2N3055

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2085
  • Country: hr
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #192 on: May 13, 2019, 07:49:04 am »
tektronix style, you move X and Y is tracking the waveform
Same on Keysight 3000T series. In manual mode you have 2 horizontal and 2 vertical independent cursors. In Track mode, you get 2 horizontal/vertical cursor pairs that track waveform.
 

Online Performa01

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 815
  • Country: at
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #193 on: May 13, 2019, 09:11:33 am »
If there is one thing i miss from the rigol is the cursors that track measurements..
And there are some measurements missing i forgot to ask if/when they wil be added, basically slew rate
Cursor display for automatic measurements will be added, the same is true for a number of additional measurements, including slew rate.

Math will see some major additions and improvements and we will also get a comprehensive filter package.
 
The following users thanked this post: 2N3055

Online Rerouter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4311
  • Country: au
  • Question Everything... Except This Statement
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #194 on: May 13, 2019, 09:15:37 am »
On the SDS1104X-E the cursors track on Y when you move the X, I assume the same functionality exists on the 5000 series, or at minimum will be easy to port,
 

Offline Martin72

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 523
  • Country: de
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #195 on: May 13, 2019, 05:30:42 pm »
Hm. Even the lowish WS3000 features gates for measurements.

Maybe I was misunderstood, yes it does it like every newer lecroy does it.
But: The tracking-function was gone, like older waverunner got it.
Even the 2004 WS 422 don´t have it anymore:



You can adjust start div. and stop div., displayed by the white lines and it will measure inbetween, but when you will examine another part of the signal, you´ll have to adjust it again to this part of the display.
With the trackfunction you could define a gate, which could be moved all over the screen (very useful for examining loadsteps):



This function does not exist anymore, even not on the expensive models ( asked lecroy for this).
Therefore, the siglent 5000 would be a very interesting candidate for our testdepartement.
Btw, this is a known ( and promised to be fixed ) bug of the ws3000(Z) series:



No white gate-lines visible….

Offline 0xdeadbeef

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1313
  • Country: de
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #196 on: May 13, 2019, 07:09:28 pm »
Hm, you mean the gating cursors could be moved together in the past? I know I can move the measurements cursors together on Windows based Waverunners/Wavesurfers but for the gating cursors, you're probably right that this isn't possible (anymore). Never really missed it to be honest, but yeah, looks like the SDS5000X can do this (judging from the menu in the user manual).
Trying is the first step towards failure - Homer J. Simpson
 

Offline Martin72

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 523
  • Country: de
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #197 on: May 13, 2019, 07:40:27 pm »
Quote
Hm, you mean the gating cursors could be moved together in the past?

Yes, on Waverunner LT models (also 9XXX models), you could choose between tracking/non tracking and as I saw the A,B AB movement possibility in the SDS5000 usermanual, I think, this will be the same.

Quote
Never really missed it to be honest

Maybe this was/is the reason, lecroy didn´t implement it anymore in the newer models and we are the only ones who use it.

It´s quiet nice for the above mentioned loadstep-measuring ( Loadstep of a 400Hz sinewave output, first 3 cycles rms-value - you define a 2.5ms gate and measure the three cycles after loadstep).

I think the SDS5034X have a better overall performance than the ws3000z, also some decoding functions are free implemented - and it costs nearly the half, comparing to the WS3034Z.
Could be a good deal.
Edit:
Rigol MSO5074 have it too:

« Last Edit: May 13, 2019, 07:57:24 pm by Martin72 »
 

Offline Mr Nutts

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 142
  • Country: us
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #198 on: May 13, 2019, 09:03:32 pm »
Even the 2004 WS 422 don´t have it anymore

From what I understand the WS400 was a much simpler scope than any Waveruner (or even the later Wavesurfers) which lacked most of the functionality available in other Lecroy scopes ;)

I think WS400s were made by Iwatsu and ran a special cut-down version of the software (X-Stream?) while other Lecroy Windows scopes all ran the same (full) software. WS400 software did also see only a few updates back then and could not be updated with normal X-Stream releases :(
« Last Edit: May 13, 2019, 09:08:07 pm by Mr Nutts »
 

Offline Martin72

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 523
  • Country: de
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #199 on: May 13, 2019, 09:17:11 pm »
Yep, wavesurfer are always the "light version" of the waverunners, in every case.

Quote
X-Stream?

Yes again.


Offline Mr Nutts

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 142
  • Country: us
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #200 on: May 13, 2019, 09:41:24 pm »
Yep, wavesurfer are always the "light version" of the waverunners, in every case.

That's true but not what I meant. What I was saying is that to my knowledge the WS400 is different from any other Lecroy X-Stream scope including later Wavesurfers. The WS400 was particularly simple unlike any other X-Stream scope, so it's not surprising it lacks most of the functionality in the LT. But a lot of that functionality is found in the successor model which I believe is Wavesurfer Xs ;)
 

Offline Martin72

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 523
  • Country: de
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #201 on: May 14, 2019, 07:28:59 pm »
Ah ok, nevertheless, the tracking gate function was gone with the elder Waverunner models and wasn´t implemented anymore.
Every brand does have it today, only lecroy not.
So I´ll suggest the siglent to buy for our testfield.

Online Performa01

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 815
  • Country: at
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #202 on: May 17, 2019, 09:58:24 pm »
Siglent scopes have always supported gated measurements and there is a mode to position the measurement gate without altering the gate width (Gate A-B):


SDS5104X_Gate_Ampl

It should be noted that Siglent offers dedicated gate cursors, whereas the regular cursors are still available for manual measurements:


SDS5104X_V_Cursor_XY_Track_M1

The screenshot above shows the M1 display mode with a compact box showing all the measurement results from the (tracking in this example) cursor pair, like we’re used to it from other Siglent scopes. On the SDS5000X, this box is movable though, hence can be positioned freely.

Alternatively, we also get the M2 display mode, where the measurement results are displayed next to the cursors:


SDS5104X_V_Cursor_XY_Track_M2
« Last Edit: May 19, 2019, 07:16:30 am by Performa01 »
 

Offline jemangedeslolos

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 60
  • Country: fr
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #203 on: May 18, 2019, 07:26:14 am »
Hello everyone,

Im looking to move on a more advanced scope ( I have a SDS2204x ).
There is some competitor at this price range and it seems that R&S will introduce promotion for their RTB and RTM series....
The price difference will be not that high between a full loaded SDS5000x and a R&S scope so it will be difficult to choose even if there are high end feature on the Siglent.
Do you know if the analog frontend is different between the 350Mhz and the 1Ghz model ?
It seems that yan can only upgrade to 500Mhz from the 350Mhz version  ?

Thank you
 

Offline 0xdeadbeef

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1313
  • Country: de
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #204 on: May 18, 2019, 10:38:53 am »
At least you can only update the 500MHz model to 1GHz. So this could mean that the 350MHz version has a different frontend than the 500MHz and 1Ghz models.
Trying is the first step towards failure - Homer J. Simpson
 

Offline tv84

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 858
  • Country: pt
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #205 on: May 18, 2019, 10:53:14 am »
Anyone has a 350MHz version?
 

Online Performa01

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 815
  • Country: at
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #206 on: May 19, 2019, 08:01:42 am »
Do you know if the analog frontend is different between the 350Mhz and the 1Ghz model ?
It seems that yan can only upgrade to 500Mhz from the 350Mhz version  ?
The 350MHz model has a different (500MHz) frontend. It can be upgraded to 500MHz by software, but such an upgraded scope is still not identical to the genuine 500MHz model.

The 500MHz model has the higher end (1GHz) frontend and if upgraded to 1GHz there will be no difference to the genuine 1GHz model.

Anyone has a 350MHz version?
I think member JPortici has got one.
 
The following users thanked this post: 2N3055

Offline jemangedeslolos

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 60
  • Country: fr
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #207 on: May 19, 2019, 09:14:14 am »
Hello Performa01,

Thank you for the info. There is a huge gap between the 350Mhz price and the 500 Mhz  :-X

Around 5000€, there will be some competitor like R&S promo....It will be difficult to choose  |O
 

Offline 0xdeadbeef

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1313
  • Country: de
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #208 on: May 19, 2019, 10:16:32 am »
Not really. Letting aside that the 500MHz version is around 6k€ with VAT, there is not much in this price range from competitors. The 4ch RTM3000 with 500MHz is around 12k€ (with VAT, 10k€ without). Also the promotion will be only for all options (1GHz MSO with all decoders and AWG). My guess is that it will will reduced from 20k€ to 12k€-14k€ [Edit: actually 10.2k€ with VAT, 8.6k€ without]. So not really the 5k€ range.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2019, 06:09:32 pm by 0xdeadbeef »
Trying is the first step towards failure - Homer J. Simpson
 

Offline 2N3055

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2085
  • Country: hr
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #209 on: May 19, 2019, 10:27:14 am »
Hello Performa01,

Thank you for the info. There is a huge gap between the 350Mhz price and the 500 Mhz  :-X

Around 5000€, there will be some competitor like R&S promo....It will be difficult to choose  |O

No it won't. Promo is nice for fully loaded 350 MHz RTB2000 at 3200 € that is a nice scope but has many limitations compared to SDS50000X.

One that SDS50000X should be compared to is RTM3000K, but on that one promo is only for a fully loaded 1GHz one for 8600€.
Which is a good deal actually if you need 1GHz. Despite fact that on RTM3000K they don't even have search on basic protocols and segments so large memory they are promoting so much is pretty much useless...

RTM3000 with basic protocols (optional) and 500 MHz  bandwidth will set you back 8100€ +2500 € for app bundle (+VAT).
Which is also part of the good news from R&S. Namely, while you can get 1GHz for what is not a bad price in their new promotion, in the same new promotion app bundle for RTM3000 is back to full price of 2500€ + VAT.
So their new promotion makes all of the scopes with lower bandwidth more expensive if you want options. Which you do, because NOTHING worth having is built in. NO segmented memory (which you really want and is standard with every single manufacturer except them), NO very nice spectrum display mode (which would be nice advantage to other scopes), no basic protocols (SPI, I2C and UART trigger and decoding is as common as edge trigger and rise time measurement nowadays). etc etc..

So if you want pretty advanced 500MHz scope, that will get even better in coming months with all the upgrades Siglent is planning, than SDS5000X has no competition whatsoever in current R&S product line. And with Rigol upcoming 1GHz scope, and necessary price adjustments because Siglent is getting ahead, it is going to get pretty interesting pretty soon.
That is exact reason why R&S is doing promotions so they can attract customers in that segment so they don't get any ideas with Siglent and Rigol.
 
The following users thanked this post: Performa01, tv84

Offline nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17630
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #210 on: May 19, 2019, 10:36:01 am »
On the R&S RTM3000 the 'protocol' item in the search menu is greyed out (with version 1.4) so that is probably something R&S is still working on.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline 2N3055

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2085
  • Country: hr
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #211 on: May 19, 2019, 11:14:49 am »
On the R&S RTM3000 the 'protocol' item in the search menu is greyed out (with version 1.4) so that is probably something R&S is still working on.

And I asked and they said that officially that's not something they gonna promise.
It's been more than a year since introduction.
That is basic functionality. Sorry.

But hey it's so cool it has kindergarten crayon style finger painting... That is more important than search  :palm:

So I gave up and bought Keysight 3000T.

If SDS5000X was available then I would have taken it into consideration, over RTM3000.

it is simple. 350MHz scope is pretty much enough for 99% of time. For the price of 100 MHz RTM3004 with no options whatsoever, you can get 350MHz MSO with segments, huge memory, basic protocols, histograms, basically low cost LeCroy..
To me, for a general purpose mainstream scope, choice is obvious.

If you need more than that you need to go up the food chain anyway..

 

Offline nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17630
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #212 on: May 19, 2019, 12:41:19 pm »
Either way it would be nice to put the Siglent SDS5000 and the R&S RTM3000 head to head once the  firmware for the SDS5000 reaches version 1.x .
« Last Edit: May 19, 2019, 12:56:14 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
The following users thanked this post: 2N3055

Offline Martin72

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 523
  • Country: de
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #213 on: May 19, 2019, 08:49:46 pm »
Quote
it is simple. 350MHz scope is pretty much enough for 99% of time. For the price of 100 MHz RTM3004 with no options whatsoever, you can get 350MHz MSO with segments, huge memory, basic protocols, histograms, basically low cost LeCroy..
To me, for a general purpose mainstream scope, choice is obvious.

For me too, for our departement spoken.
It seems that the siglent 350Mhz model is more than enough to fullfil our daily needs, they also offers pretty good current-clamps which are, surprise surprise, equal to the ones Lecroy offers ( and Rigol by the way).
I would also recommend a Rigol MSO5000 when it would be clear, that all Bugs would be fixed in the near future - But this is not clear and additional to this, a big point was open:
What about the support.....
Not only Rigol concerning, also Siglent.
From Lecroy I am used to become a quick help what problems concerning.
I´ve told my departement manager about the siglent SDS5000 series and he replied, well let us invite a representative to show the benefits of an SDS 5000 - And me : ehhhh…... ;)
This seperate the pro´s from the amateurs, when siglent is seriously interesting to be a player in the family of pro-outfitter, they must be more present in this cases than actual.

« Last Edit: May 19, 2019, 08:51:21 pm by Martin72 »
 

Offline rf-loop

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3069
  • Country: fi
  • Starting with DLL21
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #214 on: May 19, 2019, 09:11:03 pm »
Either way it would be nice to put the Siglent SDS5000 and the R&S RTM3000 head to head once the  firmware for the SDS5000 reaches version 1.x .

2.x

(you perhaps know this "De ja vu")
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory  is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
It is much easier to think an apple fall to the ground than to think that the earth and the apple will begin to move toward each other and collide.
 

Offline nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17630
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #215 on: May 19, 2019, 09:58:07 pm »
Either way it would be nice to put the Siglent SDS5000 and the R&S RTM3000 head to head once the  firmware for the SDS5000 reaches version 1.x .

2.x

(you perhaps know this "De ja vu")
According to my sources the SDS5000 firmware is currently at version 0.8-ish.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online Performa01

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 815
  • Country: at
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #216 on: May 19, 2019, 10:05:54 pm »
Hello Performa01,

Thank you for the info. There is a huge gap between the 350Mhz price and the 500 Mhz  :-X

Around 5000€, there will be some competitor like R&S promo....It will be difficult to choose  |O

When comparing the SDS5000X to a competing product, you should compare specifications and have a clear idea what is really important for you. If you think you need 10bit, then the R&S is the only option quite obviously. But let me express my honest opinion on this: 8bit is enough for the majority of tasks and should you ever need high resolution in a scope, chances are that 10bit won't cut it either. You'd want at least 12 bit, but then we're talking about LeCroy HDO series. If you don't need high bandwidth, then Picoscope 4000/5000 series could serve as a complement for the special tasks where you really need high physical resolution (that's the way how I personally handle it).

In any case you should also be aware that:

•   The SDS5000X comes as a fairly complete package; none of the essential features are optional (except for the digital channels, but then not everyone needs them, so it's okay to be an option).
•   If you actually need more than what comes as standard, options are quite reasonabl priced on the SDS5000X IMHO.
•   The SDS5000X series is far from feature complete yet. Siglent’s to-do list is much longer than what you’d possibly imagine. Some of these topics will be options, like additional decoders or analysis packages, but the majority will just improve/complement the standard functionality.

One that SDS50000X should be compared to is RTM3000K, but on that one promo is only for a fully loaded 1GHz one for 8600€.
Which is a good deal actually if you need 1GHz. Despite fact that on RTM3000K they don't even have search on basic protocols and segments so large memory they are promoting so much is pretty much useless...
I should point out that the SDS5000X cannot do a search for serial triggers right now. But I have requested this quite some time ago and it's on Siglent's to-do list.

Search across segments on the other hand – yet another request from me – has already been implemented in the latest firmware. Search is also reasonably fast, even with full 250MPts memory (<400ms per search) as I think I was able to demonstrate in an earlier post.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2019, 10:32:00 pm by Performa01 »
 
The following users thanked this post: 2N3055

Online Performa01

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 815
  • Country: at
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #217 on: May 20, 2019, 09:14:39 am »
What about the support.....
Not only Rigol concerning, also Siglent.
From Lecroy I am used to become a quick help what problems concerning.
I´ve told my departement manager about the siglent SDS5000 series and he replied, well let us invite a representative to show the benefits of an SDS 5000 - And me : ehhhh…... ;)
This seperate the pro´s from the amateurs, when siglent is seriously interesting to be a player in the family of pro-outfitter, they must be more present in this cases than actual.
Since there is an increasing offer on midrange gear from Siglent, that's a valid request. At least in Europe I know about solid plans to improve product presentation/service to customers – despite the fact that Siglent is a rather small company with limited human resources. Because of that and the fact that Siglent don’t sell any gear directly, I guess this will most likely end up in tight partnerships with selected (competent and trustworthy) distributors.

Apart from that, you have two options:

1.)   You can wait until LeCroy includes the SDS5000X into their "Teledyne Test Tools" series. You'll pay a premium, but you'll get the support you're used to.

2.)   Right now you can just contact Siglent Europe headquarter, either via the contact form on their web page  https://www.siglenteu.com/contact-us/ or just send an email to info-eu@siglent.com (you can use German language!) and they will arrange something.

« Last Edit: May 20, 2019, 09:16:28 am by Performa01 »
 
The following users thanked this post: Martin72

Offline 0xdeadbeef

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1313
  • Country: de
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #218 on: May 20, 2019, 10:15:50 am »
1.)   You can wait until LeCroy includes the SDS5000X into their "Teledyne Test Tools" series. You'll pay a premium, but you'll get the support you're used to.
I somewhat doubt this will ever happen. LeCroy's current strategy seems to be to relabel only models "below" the WS3000Z (and yes, I know, the WS3000Z is the result of a cooperation with Siglent, but it's not a rebrand). But letting aside the reduced bandwidth in the low voltage ranges and a slightly lower specified update rate, the SDS5000X has better specs than a WS3000Z in important aspects like sample rate and memory depth. So it will be hard to place the SD5000X as low cost option below the WS3000X and placing it next to the WS3000X or even slightly above doesn't seem to make much sense from LeCroy's perspective. At least it would be hard to explain why someone should pay much more for the WS3000X. I.e. the SDS5034X with VAT costs ~3.4k€ while the WaveSurfer 3034Z with VAT costs ~7.9k€, so even if LeCroy would double the price for the SDS5034X rebrand and remove the decoders, it would still be cheaper than the WS3034Z.

Trying is the first step towards failure - Homer J. Simpson
 

Offline EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 29658
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #219 on: May 21, 2019, 04:38:35 am »
Test post due to consistent 500 error.  :-//
Reported for admins to investigate.

No other reports.
Testing...
EDIT: Hmm, a small PNG (different to below) took ages to load and then failed.
 

Offline 0xdeadbeef

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1313
  • Country: de
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #220 on: May 21, 2019, 10:00:20 am »
For the record: Dave uses his SDS5104X in the "sinc" video ... and seems to have stumbled over a bug in this short demonstration.
Trying is the first step towards failure - Homer J. Simpson
 

Offline tv84

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 858
  • Country: pt
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #221 on: May 21, 2019, 10:08:46 am »
According to my sources the SDS5000 firmware is currently at version 0.8-ish.

The one I looked into had FW v4.6.0.8.0R1B5.
 

Offline 0xdeadbeef

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1313
  • Country: de
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #222 on: May 21, 2019, 10:10:38 am »
Looked into? Already gave it back? No "investigation" going on?
Trying is the first step towards failure - Homer J. Simpson
 

Offline nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17630
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #223 on: May 21, 2019, 10:13:19 am »
According to my sources the SDS5000 firmware is currently at version 0.8-ish.

The one I looked into had FW v4.6.0.8.0R1B5.
Then it is a) weird people talk about .8-ish and b) not in Beta stage like I assumed? Or does B5 indicate it is a Beta version?
« Last Edit: May 21, 2019, 10:15:29 am by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline tv84

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 858
  • Country: pt
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #224 on: May 21, 2019, 10:16:59 am »
Looked into? Already gave it back? No "investigation" going on?

Yep. "Investigation" ended successfully.
 

Offline JPortici

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2560
  • Country: it
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #225 on: May 21, 2019, 10:18:26 am »
I'll check tonight (name of the firmware file doesn't correspond 1 to 1 with what's written on the system info page)
but it should be this one http://old.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Firmware&Software/firmware/SDS5000X_0.8.0R1B5_EN.zip
(from http://siglent.com/ENs/gjjrj.aspx?id=15)
 

Offline 2N3055

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2085
  • Country: hr
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #226 on: May 21, 2019, 10:24:01 am »
According to my sources the SDS5000 firmware is currently at version 0.8-ish.

The one I looked into had FW v4.6.0.8.0R1B5.
Then it is a) weird people talk about .8-ish and b) not in Beta stage like I assumed? Or does B5 indicate it is a Beta version?

I believe member RF-loop  explained some time ago that full string consists of boot loader part (4.6. part) and software ver part( 0.8.0R1B5.)
Boot loader part would be partially connected with mainboard hardware revision probably....
 

Offline tv84

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 858
  • Country: pt
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #227 on: May 21, 2019, 10:24:17 am »
According to my sources the SDS5000 firmware is currently at version 0.8-ish.

The one I looked into had FW v4.6.0.8.0R1B5.
Then it is a) weird people talk about .8-ish and b) not in Beta stage like I assumed? Or does B5 indicate it is a Beta version?

Nico,

Don't know the answer...

What I saw was:

 <Manufacturer>SIGLENT TECHNOLOGIES</Manufacturer>
 <Model>SDS5104X</Model>
 <SerialNumber>SDS5X..........</SerialNumber>
 <FirmwareRevision>4.6.0.8.0R1B5</FirmwareRevision>
 <ManufacturerDescription>SDS5X............</ManufacturerDescription>
 <HomepageURL>http://www.Siglent.com</HomepageURL>
 <DriverURL>http://www.Siglent.com</DriverURL>
 <UserDescription>SIGLENT TECHNOLOGIES SMU</UserDescription>
 <IdentificationURL>http://169.254.32.14/lxi/identification</IdentificationURL>
 <Interface xsi:type="NetworkInformation" InterfaceType="LXI" IPType="IPv4" InterfaceName="et0">
 

Offline JPortici

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2560
  • Country: it
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #228 on: May 21, 2019, 11:00:17 am »
I believe member RF-loop  explained some time ago that full string consists of boot loader part (4.6. part) and software ver part( 0.8.0R1B5.)
Boot loader part would be partially connected with mainboard hardware revision probably....


makes sense, at some point they have changed the first number on the 1000X-E, the actual firmware was the same
 

Online tautech

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 15977
  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. NZ Siglent Distributor
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #229 on: May 21, 2019, 11:45:10 am »
Very first impressions before this SDS5034X must go to my customer.  :(

Big display, the same physical size as those used for SSA and SVA models.
Super quiet fan that make some little noise when booting but slows to nearly inaudible before boot has finished.
SDS5034X (350 MHz) comes with 10x auto-sense SP3050A 500 MHz probes.
They have 1x LF and 2x HF compensation adjustments in the BNC box and with the normal accessories like a spare needle tip, probe to BNC adapter and ground spring.
https://siglentna-qwavztc8hvq2w.stackpathdns.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/SP3025A_3050A_Users_Guide.pdf

The scope is a joy and simple to use, front panel layout is good and intuitive.
Knobs are rubber coated like we've seen in SDS2000X models.
Touch display works just fine even through the factory screen protector tear-off and can be toggled ON or OFF.
Rear VGA ports to an external monitor perfectly with zero visible latency.
The current factory firmware is 0.8.2R1 The full string from the webserver info is: 4.6.0.8.2R1
SN# indication: SDS5XDAD2R0***

Some meaningless play screenshots.
Ch4 1 MHz 1V p-p from SDG1032X for probe HF adjustments*. (*SDG1032X risetime marginal)
Connection via BNC adapter to SP3050A 10x probe.

Ch1 500 MHz 0dBm from SSG3021X
Connection: Siglent 6 GHz rated N-N cable with unknown N-BNC adapter.






One thing is quite an improvement on other/older Siglent models is the Zoom display proportioning.
This shot shows a much improved ratio of the un-zoomed and zoomed working area.


« Last Edit: May 22, 2019, 07:46:58 am by tautech »
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 

Offline BillB

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 554
  • Country: us
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #230 on: May 21, 2019, 12:56:10 pm »
I once munged-up a thread on this board by posting a png that was really a bmp or something like that.  Ensure that the uploaded images aren't corrupt/improper format.
 

Offline tv84

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 858
  • Country: pt
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #231 on: May 21, 2019, 01:37:07 pm »
It seems tautech did a DoS attack to the thread...  ;D
 

Offline gnif

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 1109
  • Country: au
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #232 on: May 21, 2019, 02:49:24 pm »
Quite simply the image you are attempting to attach is broken/invalid and the forum is crashing out trying to load it to generate a thumbnail.

Code: [Select]
geoff@aeryn:~/Downloads# pngcheck a.png
a.png  CRC error in chunk IDAT (computed dade6bff, expected 00000000)
ERROR: a.png

Please do not try to attach this image again, it is clearly corrupted.

Attached a test PNG image to this post to show that attachments are working fine.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2019, 02:52:22 pm by gnif »
HostFission - Full Server Monitoring and Management Solutions.
https://hostfission.com/
https://twitter.com/HostFission

I volunteer my time to manage this server, if you would like to support this work I have a patreon here:
https://www.patreon.com/gnif
 
The following users thanked this post: tautech

Offline JPortici

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2560
  • Country: it
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #233 on: May 21, 2019, 03:06:53 pm »
* I've had issues with corrupted PNGs generated by the scope saved to USB *
but it's not an issue with the scope per se.
Basically, wait a few more seconds before ejecting, or you'll have corrupted files / corrupted filesystem. Windows can render the image (it may show noise on corrupted areas) but other systems are not very happy..
I happens quite a lot with me, linux and > 8GB pen drives.
I've suggested they add an unmount button.
 

Offline JPortici

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2560
  • Country: it
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #234 on: May 21, 2019, 03:08:36 pm »
Quite simply the image you are attempting to attach is broken/invalid and the forum is crashing out trying to load it to generate a thumbnail.

Code: [Select]
geoff@aeryn:~/Downloads# pngcheck a.png
a.png  CRC error in chunk IDAT (computed dade6bff, expected 00000000)
ERROR: a.png

Please do not try to attach this image again, it is clearly corrupted.

Attached a test PNG image to this post to show that attachments are working fine.
agh, so close to deadbeef
 

Offline tv84

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 858
  • Country: pt
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #235 on: May 21, 2019, 03:09:45 pm »
Yep, the test went OK.

Probably they aren't doing the sync (flush) command after save and the last PNG becomes incomplete.

If the USB standard was correctly implemented a USB removable drive doesn't require an explicit unmount from the user.

I bet this is one of the consequences of the way the USB disks can be used in this equipment...  ::)
« Last Edit: May 21, 2019, 03:13:16 pm by tv84 »
 

Offline 0xdeadbeef

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1313
  • Country: de
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #236 on: May 21, 2019, 03:13:09 pm »
Yeah, could be a write cache enabled. Note that even Win10 now disabled the write cache for USB devices by default to avoid problems like that.
Trying is the first step towards failure - Homer J. Simpson
 

Offline nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17630
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #237 on: May 21, 2019, 03:59:54 pm »
Quite simply the image you are attempting to attach is broken/invalid and the forum is crashing out trying to load it to generate a thumbnail.
Code: [Select]
geoff@aeryn:~/Downloads# pngcheck a.png
a.png  CRC error in chunk IDAT (computed dade6bff, expected 00000000)
ERROR: a.png
I guess that is another SDS5000 firmware bug  >:D
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline jemangedeslolos

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 60
  • Country: fr
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #238 on: May 21, 2019, 05:19:16 pm »
Thank you Performa01 and 2N3055.
I was a bit overexcited by the R&S promotion.

Im still young and I still make unreasonable choices.
R&S is for me like Ferrari....you know, one day maybe ?!

But on paper there is no competition between SDS5000X and RTB2000.
The RTM3000 is out of my budget.

I have a SDS2204X and im pretty happy with it but there is still few bugs I had to report te Siglent.
The SDS5000X has everything I need ( or everything the SDS2000X miss ? ), 350Mhz is enough for me 95% of the time but 500Mhz will be a nice feature.
It is not a bad idea from Siglent to have two different hardware and purpore a very capable scope a low cost.

If Siglent introduce a 25-30% discount like it is for the SDS2000x currently, I will buy one right know !
Nobody wants to buy my SDS2204X, it seems that it is not easy to sell an oscilloscope like this one  :-\

I think I have to take a subscription to the gear acquisition syndrome thread  :palm:
 

Offline JPortici

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2560
  • Country: it
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #239 on: May 21, 2019, 06:07:10 pm »
Yep, the test went OK.

Probably they aren't doing the sync (flush) command after save and the last PNG becomes incomplete.

If the USB standard was correctly implemented a USB removable drive doesn't require an explicit unmount from the user.

I bet this is one of the consequences of the way the USB disks can be used in this equipment...  ::)

I don't know how things work but I think the flush is performed at time intervals, because a few more seconds and you can't get the bug, period. A < 8 GB drive and you can't get the bug, period (or maybe the flush is performed sooner so you don't have the chance to encounter it?)
In any case, i have to dig out the emails but IIRC they were pointing the finger at the linux side of things and i believe them.
i never, ever, ever ever had this issue with my mac or windows machines, only with linux machines, computers or embedded platforms.
 

Offline 2N3055

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2085
  • Country: hr
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #240 on: May 21, 2019, 06:36:22 pm »
On that topic:

https://superuser.com/questions/646232/do-usb-memory-sticks-have-controller-and-disk-cache-on-board

Like Jportici said, it would be nice to have remove (unmount) function.
 

Offline nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17630
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #241 on: May 21, 2019, 06:42:07 pm »
I'd expect that a file is written when the notification on the screen of a piece of test equipment dissapears. Perhaps Siglent should disable write caching on removable media if that isn't the case.

@Jportici: I have had my fair share of Windows problems with USB sticks as well if I don't 'eject' them first. It depends on some setting in Windows and it isn't a given it is set correctly for removable media.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline tv84

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 858
  • Country: pt
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #242 on: May 21, 2019, 08:00:20 pm »
So, it's not an easy question but Siglent has a bug/lack of feature.

I saw one of tautech .PNGs and the tail of the file was not missing. It's was there but it was all 00s. This is a different thing from being truncated. But it could have been added when the file pen was re-inserted back in the PC...

JPortici, I don't recall people reporting this problem in the SDS X-E

2 things are certain:

- Siglent must address this theme
- Dave / other admins must protect the forum servers against this .PNG "bug" since it can be used to attack the forum's security.
 
The following users thanked this post: nctnico, JPortici, 2N3055

Offline tv84

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 858
  • Country: pt
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #243 on: May 21, 2019, 09:18:23 pm »
I believe member RF-loop  explained some time ago that full string consists of boot loader part (4.6. part) and software ver part( 0.8.0R1B5.)
Boot loader part would be partially connected with mainboard hardware revision probably....

I've rechecked in System Status. The FW version format is like this:

Uboot-OS Version: 4.6
Software Version: 0.8.0R1B5
 
The following users thanked this post: 2N3055

Online tautech

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 15977
  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. NZ Siglent Distributor
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #244 on: May 21, 2019, 09:24:44 pm »
On this .png issue, yes maybe I did not allow enough time for the scope to finish writing to the stick and in this case it was a stick without 'busy' LED indication that I much rather prefer.
So today there will be experiments to find the cause of this bad inconvenience to the forum and it might just be to use another USB stick.
Thanks to all that have helped.  :clap:

I believe member RF-loop  explained some time ago that full string consists of boot loader part (4.6. part) and software ver part( 0.8.0R1B5.)
Boot loader part would be partially connected with mainboard hardware revision probably....

I've rechecked in System Status. The FW version format is like this:

Uboot-OS Version: 4.6
Software Version: 0.8.0R1B5

This scope I have has later SW and a reply from Dave in another thread confirms the SDS5104X he has also has this newer version.
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 

Online tautech

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 15977
  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. NZ Siglent Distributor
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #245 on: May 21, 2019, 10:44:46 pm »
On this .png issue, yes maybe I did not allow enough time for the scope to finish writing to the stick and in this case it was a stick without 'busy' LED indication that I much rather prefer.
So today there will be experiments to find the cause of this bad inconvenience to the forum and it might just be to use another USB stick.
Thanks to all that have helped.  :clap:
Previous post is now repaired and with new png screenshots.  :phew:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/at-last-siglent_s-sds5054x-touchscreen/msg2426481/#msg2426481
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 

Online tautech

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 15977
  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. NZ Siglent Distributor
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
Re: At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...
« Reply #246 on: May 21, 2019, 11:52:55 pm »
More checks.....
Noise floor<