Author Topic: Audio via Sound Card Line In and Spectrum Analyzer  (Read 5525 times)

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Offline Fungus

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Re: Audio via Sound Card Line In and Spectrum Analyzer
« Reply #25 on: July 12, 2023, 12:48:49 pm »
For example, if you don't expect very expensive top performance, Creative E-MU 1212M is a good working horse with 24-bit ADC.

Not going to fit in his Microsoft Surface.  :)

I just want a rough idea how the USB Hub is able to route the power from the external mini-usb adaptor to one of the USB slot when the slot is already getting power from the notebook USB? Won't the mini-usb adaptor power and notebook usb power collide?  I need to know in preparation to power the Behringer.

That's what electronics engineers are paid for.

I believe you're over-thinking the sound card aspect. If you want to record human voice the microphone will be orders of magnitude more important than the sound card.

Plus: Many voice-optimized microphones come with USB output these days so you won't even need a sound card.
 

Offline dobsonr741

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Re: Audio via Sound Card Line In and Spectrum Analyzer
« Reply #26 on: July 12, 2023, 12:55:59 pm »
Try Rew to see the noise floor of your laptop ADC: https://www.roomeqwizard.com/
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Audio via Sound Card Line In and Spectrum Analyzer
« Reply #27 on: July 12, 2023, 01:03:28 pm »
Try Rew to see the noise floor of your laptop ADC: https://www.roomeqwizard.com/

That page recommends this calibrated USB microphone:

https://www.minidsp.com/products/acoustic-measurement/umik-1

I don't know anything about it but it could be what the OP really needs instead of a sound card (or something similar to that)

 
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Offline kirk specTopic starter

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Re: Audio via Sound Card Line In and Spectrum Analyzer
« Reply #28 on: July 12, 2023, 01:50:35 pm »
The E1DA Cosmos ADC has this spec:

Input Range
1.7Vrms 640Ω,
2.7Vrms 1kΩ,
3.5Vrms 1.3kΩ,
4.5Vrms 1.66kΩ,
6.7Vrms 2.46kΩ,
7.6Vrms 2.82kΩ,
8.5Vrms 3.12kΩ,
10Vrms 3.48kΩ,
43Vrms 13.6kΩ
Note: Unbalanced impedance about 30% less.

I know input and output impedance is important due to the idea of resistive divider where the larger value will receive more voltage. How do I measure the resistance above? Is it the ADC input impedance or is it the source impedance of the Line Out?
 

Offline RPP

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Re: Audio via Sound Card Line In and Spectrum Analyzer
« Reply #29 on: July 12, 2023, 03:13:29 pm »
I've been using a Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 with REW, AudioTester and ARTA software for a while now.  It works well for me . . .

Rich
 

Offline radiolistener

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Re: Audio via Sound Card Line In and Spectrum Analyzer
« Reply #30 on: July 12, 2023, 03:35:23 pm »
Any sound input/output on the PC will be real time - they are streams of data with a few millisecond latency.

it depends on the sound card. Professional sound card can support ASIO drivers with low latency down to 2-3 ms. Usual PCI-E sound card has about 100-300 ms latency. Some cheap Chinese sound card can have up to several seconds latency
 

Offline radiolistener

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Re: Audio via Sound Card Line In and Spectrum Analyzer
« Reply #31 on: July 12, 2023, 03:39:34 pm »
Plus: Many voice-optimized microphones come with USB output these days so you won't even need a sound card.

usb output is a sign that microphone is not professional and has a bad sound quality
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Audio via Sound Card Line In and Spectrum Analyzer
« Reply #32 on: July 12, 2023, 03:41:02 pm »
... several seconds latency

I really doubt that.
 

Offline radiolistener

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Re: Audio via Sound Card Line In and Spectrum Analyzer
« Reply #33 on: July 12, 2023, 03:43:05 pm »
How do I measure the resistance above?

With amplitude measurement and using Ohms law. When you connect some sound source to sound input, both have some impedance and your connection turns into voltage divider. When impedance is the same it turns into 1:2 voltage divider, because both resistance is the same.

But high impedance is very bad, because higher resistance means worse noise floor due to Johnson–Nyquist thermal noise. This is why hi-end ADC and DAC max impedance is limited to about 2 kΩ max, because they will be unable to keep 140 dB dynamic range with higher impedance.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2023, 03:52:15 pm by radiolistener »
 

Offline dobsonr741

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Re: Audio via Sound Card Line In and Spectrum Analyzer
« Reply #34 on: July 12, 2023, 03:47:04 pm »
E1DA impedance: those voltage / impedance values are for the ADC input.

What is your source? Voltage level and impedance of the source?

 
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Audio via Sound Card Line In and Spectrum Analyzer
« Reply #35 on: July 12, 2023, 03:51:00 pm »
usb output is a sign that microphone is not professional and has a bad sound quality

You mean like this one?

https://www.shure.com/en-US/products/microphones/mv7?variant=MV7-K
 

Offline radiolistener

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Re: Audio via Sound Card Line In and Spectrum Analyzer
« Reply #36 on: July 12, 2023, 03:56:31 pm »
You mean like this one?

https://www.shure.com/en-US/products/microphones/mv7?variant=MV7-K

Yes, such kind of microphones are intended for these people who like how microphone looks and they don't take care about actual microphone performance specifications and sound quality... Different kind of bloggers, etc...  :)

You can find a lot of examples on aliexpress. For example:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005385033091.html
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005145354029.html
« Last Edit: July 12, 2023, 04:00:55 pm by radiolistener »
 

Offline radiolistener

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Re: Audio via Sound Card Line In and Spectrum Analyzer
« Reply #37 on: July 12, 2023, 07:00:04 pm »
Looks like original E1DA store for Cosmos ADC on aliexpress:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003391728199.html
 
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Offline kirk specTopic starter

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Re: Audio via Sound Card Line In and Spectrum Analyzer
« Reply #38 on: July 12, 2023, 10:28:29 pm »

I'm not sure of the source impedance because this would be related to singing auditions. I'm studying great singers voices for patterns in the spectrum analyzers. Whatever. I want to see for myself.

1. My Microsoft surface just doesn't have any line in. Also I bought a cheap USB sound stick before, I found out most usb sound module just doesn't have line in. Do you know what cheap USB stick has line in? While waiting for the legendary E1DA Cosmos ADC from china which can take months to arrive, I want to have a USB stick with Line In first.

2. Second. The E1DA Cosmos ADC has low input impedance. Let's say in the future I got source impedance that is very high. It can make the signal in the E1DA so low because of resistive dividing. Are there gadgets where you can decrease or adjust the source impedance to make it much lower so the signal to the E1DA won't be so degraded in magnitude?

3. If no cheap USB stick has Line In. I may just get the cheap (compared to the Behringer) M-Audio M-Track Solo first to try. The reason I mentioned cheap is because I can't get 2 $150 units (both Behringer and E1DA) as I need budget for other things. The temporary one has to be $50 or less. What do you think of the M-Audio M-Track Solo?
 

Offline noisyee

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Re: Audio via Sound Card Line In and Spectrum Analyzer
« Reply #39 on: July 13, 2023, 01:46:27 am »
And it's at $150. Why can't other sound cards more expensive match the spec?
And if you have Line Out already without needing any Mic preamp Why can't hobbyists use it as sound card/interface at all?

Cosmos ADC use a new released ESS ES9822, while other sound cards use very old AKM, CirrusLogic, or TI parts. It will take a long time for a new part to hit the market. Also the ES9822 is quite expensive, don't expect it appear on a cheap sound card.
Most hobbyists would use their sound card. Like I said, the Cosmos ADC is over killed for most application, so only those guys who are really serious about THD but can't afford the expensive Audio Precision would use Cosmos ADC.

For example, if you don't expect very expensive top performance, Creative E-MU 1212M is a good working horse with 24-bit ADC.

Yes E-MU 1212M is a good alternative for a quite good performance without spending too much.

I know input and output impedance is important due to the idea of resistive divider where the larger value will receive more voltage. How do I measure the resistance above? Is it the ADC input impedance or is it the source impedance of the Line Out?

It's the Cosmos ADC input impedance. Due to it full differential amplifier input architecture, the input impedance is not high enough. It's a tradeoff between gain setting resistor and noise.

it depends on the sound card. Professional sound card can support ASIO drivers with low latency down to 2-3 ms. Usual PCI-E sound card has about 100-300 ms latency. Some cheap Chinese sound card can have up to several seconds latency

It also depends on hardware driver. Intel Ethernet card driver will cause a very high DPC Latency, a bug last for several years.
Use DPC Latency Checker to see if you are affected.

I'm not sure of the source impedance because this would be related to singing auditions. I'm studying great singers voices for patterns in the spectrum analyzers. Whatever. I want to see for myself.
1. My Microsoft surface just doesn't have any line in. Also I bought a cheap USB sound stick before, I found out most usb sound module just doesn't have line in. Do you know what cheap USB stick has line in? While waiting for the legendary E1DA Cosmos ADC from china which can take months to arrive, I want to have a USB stick with Line In first.
2. Second. The E1DA Cosmos ADC has low input impedance. Let's say in the future I got source impedance that is very high. It can make the signal in the E1DA so low because of resistive dividing. Are there gadgets where you can decrease or adjust the source impedance to make it much lower so the signal to the E1DA won't be so degraded in magnitude?
3. If no cheap USB stick has Line In. I may just get the cheap (compared to the Behringer) M-Audio M-Track Solo first to try. The reason I mentioned cheap is because I can't get 2 $150 units (both Behringer and E1DA) as I need budget for other things. The temporary one has to be $50 or less. What do you think of the M-Audio M-Track Solo?

1. As far as I know, no.
2. You need a buffer amplifier. Most high impedance audio source comes from mic, so a mic phone preamp may do the job.
 
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Offline dobsonr741

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Re: Audio via Sound Card Line In and Spectrum Analyzer
« Reply #40 on: July 13, 2023, 03:45:27 am »
M-Track Solo looks OK for a single singer mic recording. With the mic preamp and phantom power you are covered for most of the professional type mikes.
 

Offline kirk specTopic starter

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Re: Audio via Sound Card Line In and Spectrum Analyzer
« Reply #41 on: July 13, 2023, 04:51:13 am »

How does the preamp of the M-Track Solo compared to the preamp of E1DA Cosmos APU?

https://www.linsoul.com/products/e1da-apu-cosmos

Maybe getting both E1DA Cosmos ADC and E1DA Cosmos APU would be the best of both worlds? Why not?
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Audio via Sound Card Line In and Spectrum Analyzer
« Reply #42 on: July 13, 2023, 05:07:50 am »
You mean like this one?

https://www.shure.com/en-US/products/microphones/mv7?variant=MV7-K

Yes, such kind of microphones are intended for these people who like how microphone looks and they don't take care about actual microphone performance specifications and sound quality... Different kind of bloggers, etc...  :)

You can find a lot of examples on aliexpress. For example:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005385033091.html

So you're painting the $250 Shure with a $12 Aliexpress brush? Got it.

 

Offline kirk specTopic starter

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Re: Audio via Sound Card Line In and Spectrum Analyzer
« Reply #43 on: July 13, 2023, 06:40:00 am »

My usb sound stick only has microphone and headphone output in the Windows Surface notebook that has no microphone input at all. Is there any device available so I can use my friends line out gears on the USB audio stick? Something that can decrease the 1 Volt Line Out output back to millivolts so the Line Out can be inserted into the microphone input? What do you call such device?
 

Offline kirk specTopic starter

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Re: Audio via Sound Card Line In and Spectrum Analyzer
« Reply #44 on: July 13, 2023, 07:59:37 am »

About 2 weeks ago I ordered a data acquisition module from china in order to get it to accept Line In and get the audio displayed in the spectrum analyzer and learn the secrets of great singers:





I'm doing some reading the past hours. The ADC in it seems to be based on the imposing  ARM32 (very military sounding) and have 5 Mega samples per second. So it's like 5Mhz sampling versus the audio 44.1kHz? 

What do you make of it if the data acquisition module would be used as sound board? The sampling is 26 times better than 192 kHz. What would Mariah Carey sound in the data acquisition board?

Also I presumed Audacity can display the above module data real time but at 5 Megahertz?
 

Offline kirk specTopic starter

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Re: Audio via Sound Card Line In and Spectrum Analyzer
« Reply #45 on: July 13, 2023, 09:43:46 am »
And it's at $150. Why can't other sound cards more expensive match the spec?
And if you have Line Out already without needing any Mic preamp Why can't hobbyists use it as sound card/interface at all?

Cosmos ADC use a new released ESS ES9822, while other sound cards use very old AKM, CirrusLogic, or TI parts. It will take a long time for a new part to hit the market. Also the ES9822 is quite expensive, don't expect it appear on a cheap sound card.
Most hobbyists would use their sound card. Like I said, the Cosmos ADC is over killed for most application, so only those guys who are really serious about THD but can't afford the expensive Audio Precision would use Cosmos ADC.

What is the equivalent of the E1DA Cosmos ADC in the Data Acquisition Devices (DAQ) world? Does DAQ need also very flat THD?  And if DAQ has flat THD the same as the Cosmos ADC, then the DAQ can equally work for audio too?
 

Offline uktony

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Re: Audio via Sound Card Line In and Spectrum Analyzer
« Reply #46 on: July 13, 2023, 10:26:49 am »
After a lot of testing and experimentation, I'm currently using an Asus Xonar STX card for audio testing. The Asus Xonar DX is a lot cheaper and also gives very good measurements.

Another ADC I'm using is an Olivine 2 from Altor Audio which is useful for portable measurements (it's a USB device with isolation) https://www.altor.co/products/test-equipment/olivine-2-adc

There are other better options out there, such as the E1DA Cosmos ADC mentioned previously in this thread.

I built a front end buffer / gain stage which plugs into the input of my sound card (and also provides a measure of protection for the sound card) and I use a custom built Crystal CS 4398 DAC as a signal generator, using the WaveGene signal generator software.

The software I use for measurements is WaveSpectra and Virtins Multi Instrument.

It's all documented on my website here -> https://gtkc.net/audio-test-and-measurement-for-diy

I hope this info is useful.

This is a screenshot of Virtins Multi Instrument software, showing a typical measurement.

 
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