Author Topic: Audio via Sound Card Line In and Spectrum Analyzer  (Read 5523 times)

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Offline kirk specTopic starter

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Audio via Sound Card Line In and Spectrum Analyzer
« on: July 12, 2023, 03:26:53 am »
Hi,

I want my analog audio to be inputted into a PC spectrum analyzer software. What is the best sound card/interface/system that can do this with minimal distortion? Is this related to Total Harmonic Distortion? I don't want the frequency of the original analog audio to be altered. So I want it to pass through the line in and into the PC software itself. If the recording quality of a sound interface or card is good. Does it automatically mean the Line In audio would be good too. What is the relationship between recording and pass through (what is the right term?)

And what sound card/interface/system can you recommend?  Thank you.
 

Offline Anthocyanina

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Re: Audio via Sound Card Line In and Spectrum Analyzer
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2023, 03:39:09 am »
you could try waveforms, made by digilent. i havent tried it with a soundcard, but know it supports it, and it is a really good software

Edit: disregard, i misread your question as asking for spectrum analyzer software that works with a soundcard  :palm:
« Last Edit: July 12, 2023, 09:24:05 am by Anthocyanina »
 

Offline dobsonr741

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Re: Audio via Sound Card Line In and Spectrum Analyzer
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2023, 03:47:29 am »
I have the Behringer U-PHORIA UMC202HD for this purpose.
It has the XCMOS cpu, price is reasonable while the guts are the same as the higher priced ones.

Read about the pros and cons here: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/behringer-umc-202hd-for-measurements.341309/
 

Offline kirk specTopic starter

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Re: Audio via Sound Card Line In and Spectrum Analyzer
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2023, 04:28:55 am »

What do you think of the Xtuga E22 2i2 (cheaper than the Behringer) and the more expensive Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 USB Audio Interface (3rd Generation)?

So if the recording is good. Pass through via Line In is automatically good?

Also if I just use a data acquisition board, can I use any spectrum analyzer software real time? Or does real time only mean a sound card is required? And why can't data acquisition board give real time spectrum analyzing?
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Audio via Sound Card Line In and Spectrum Analyzer
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2023, 04:53:10 am »
What do you think of the Xtuga E22 2i2 (cheaper than the Behringer) and the more expensive Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 USB Audio Interface (3rd Generation)?

It's not going to make any difference to the spectrum analyzer.

So if the recording is good. Pass through via Line In is automatically good?

Yes, but it's not important. Just get one of these if you want perfect passthrough:

« Last Edit: July 12, 2023, 04:54:58 am by Fungus »
 

Offline dobsonr741

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Re: Audio via Sound Card Line In and Spectrum Analyzer
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2023, 05:12:19 am »
XTuga is a Chinese company, expect cost cutting and less reliability on the long run. I would bet not having the XMOS cpu in it.

You can use other DACs, however these audio oriented ones are having 24 bit ADCs, measurement oriented dacs might not be 24 bit. The audio interfaces expected to be lower distortion, but you need to tell what DAC you are comparing with.

Real time vs not is the property of the software, not the hardware. I use REW, and it has a real time updating FFT at 64K points. I also use my own Jupyter notebook to get the same FFT.

 

Offline kirk specTopic starter

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Re: Audio via Sound Card Line In and Spectrum Analyzer
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2023, 05:19:27 am »
What do you think of the Xtuga E22 2i2 (cheaper than the Behringer) and the more expensive Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 USB Audio Interface (3rd Generation)?

It's not going to make any difference to the spectrum analyzer.

So if the recording is good. Pass through via Line In is automatically good?

Yes, but it's not important. Just get one of these if you want perfect passthrough:


Why would the stereo splitter make a passthrough?

The inputs are XLR, are they male or female? What XLR brand to get for distortion free passthrough?
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Audio via Sound Card Line In and Spectrum Analyzer
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2023, 05:23:29 am »
Why would the stereo splitter make a passthrough?

I think you're going to have to define "passthrough" for us.
 

Offline kirk specTopic starter

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Re: Audio via Sound Card Line In and Spectrum Analyzer
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2023, 05:46:38 am »
Passthrough means you are not using the sound card recording or playback, but only line in. Meaning your signal is riding in its ADC sampling wave only.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Audio via Sound Card Line In and Spectrum Analyzer
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2023, 06:19:47 am »
Passthrough means you are not using the sound card recording or playback, but only line in. Meaning your signal is riding in its ADC sampling wave only.

Ok. To me "passthrough" usually means it has to go in and back out again to somewhere else. The best/easiest way to do that is with a splitter cable.

Any sound card will do, I wouldn't worry too much over that.

Start with whatever you've got now and see what happens. Upgrade only if you discover it isn't good enough.

For best quality you should probably look for a USB device with separate power supply but that's for later, see above.

48kHz is enough and you only need 24 bits if the input signal is very, very low.
 

Offline kirk specTopic starter

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Re: Audio via Sound Card Line In and Spectrum Analyzer
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2023, 07:15:32 am »

I already ordered the Behringer U-PHORIA UMC202HD just to be sure and not the Xtuga which I almost ordered.

But I'm not sure my laptop can power the Behringer. My Microsoft surface laptop can't even charge an IPad 9th gen. Can any powered USB hub do? Or would it introduce noises? What powered USB hubs do you guys use for the Behringer?

Also my analog signal can reach 2 to 3 volts. What voltage the UMC202HD Line In can accept?

If my signal is 3 volts and I used a resistive divider to make it 1V to match the Line In. Can it distort the frequency?

 

Offline jonpaul

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Re: Audio via Sound Card Line In and Spectrum Analyzer
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2023, 08:05:10 am »
best interface is none...We use a simple 4 cond 3.5 mm male phone to 3x RCA cable.

PC is Lenovoo Carbon X1

NO amps, sound card, just the PC onboarrd ADC.

Free audio SA SW is SoundCard Scope, for speech analysis INFORMANT, RTpitch and RTspect, all free.

The best solution is the simplest.

Jon
An Internet Dinosaur...
 

Offline kirk specTopic starter

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Re: Audio via Sound Card Line In and Spectrum Analyzer
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2023, 08:26:59 am »

My Microsoft Surface 2017 notebook has no audio input.

I found in my things a 4 in 1 Venton USB HUB with mini-usb power supply port (where you plug the 5V adaptor to the mini-usb slot).

I just want a rough idea how the USB Hub is able to route the power from the external mini-usb adaptor to one of the USB slot when the slot is already getting power from the notebook USB? Won't the mini-usb adaptor power and notebook usb power collide?  I need to know in preparation to power the Behringer.



Th
 

Offline jonpaul

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Re: Audio via Sound Card Line In and Spectrum Analyzer
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2023, 08:40:40 am »
Hello again, the old 3.5mm><USB headphone adapters that used to come with Logitech HP 10..20 yrs back had an ADC in the USB dongle.

We have many usually free at street and garage sales or with the HP.

Fine for most uses


Jon

An Internet Dinosaur...
 

Offline noisyee

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Re: Audio via Sound Card Line In and Spectrum Analyzer
« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2023, 08:50:29 am »
What's your signal like and what THD performance do you want?
Mic-In have a high gain mic-phone preamp which is for very small signal but degradation the system THD performance. Line-In usually mean bypass that preamp and direct feed input to the ADC, which is good for 1 Vrms or 2 Vrms "standard" line level.
A typical PC onboard sound card will have better than -50dB THD for mic-in and -80dB for the line-in, which is good enough for most case. But be careful some mic-in have AGC that can not be by-passed, and the frequency response is not that flat (some will have low cut or voice boost :palm:).
A dedicated sound card will have better performance, and also other feature like variable gain and attenuation setting. Which is good for different signal level.

I'd recommend try onboard sound card first to see if it suits your need. Entry level dedicated sound card usually don't have enough performance advantage over onboard sound card. Professional sound card is much much more expensive(almost 1 decade higher).
If you really need high performance comparable to an audio analyzer but with budget price, the E1DA Cosmos ADC may be a good choice. It has good reputation among some audio hobbyists.

Also be careful with the OS sound mixer, it sometime can ruin your test. If your software support input method like WASAPI or ASIO, the use it rather than DS(DirectSound or System Sound). If not, make sure you have disabled system sound effect, mic-phone boost, noise reduction, etc.
 
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Offline kirk specTopic starter

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Re: Audio via Sound Card Line In and Spectrum Analyzer
« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2023, 09:47:00 am »

I just cancelled my Behringer order when I heard about the E1DA Cosmos ADC. It has very low distortion which I need. My signal is mainly human voices, I want to analyze voices so I need very clear reproduction without added distortions.

Why didn't you guys get the E1DA Cosmos ADC as some kind of sound card? How does it differ to a sound card?

Also to evaluate my notebook sound (without any input). First I need to get hold of free PC software audio spectrum analyzers. Please list the free ones that are easy to use and complete. I'm not familiar with Mathlab. Thanks.

 

Offline noisyee

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Re: Audio via Sound Card Line In and Spectrum Analyzer
« Reply #16 on: July 12, 2023, 10:06:45 am »
Why didn't you guys get the E1DA Cosmos ADC as some kind of sound card? How does it differ to a sound card?

Cosmos ADC doesn't have mic preamp, that mean you just can't plug a mic direct into it. It will not work AT ALL. You will need a separate mic preamp like the Cosmos APU.
The functionality of the Cosmos ADC is more likely a audio ADC evaluation board rather than a commercial sound card.
Some audio hobbyist mainly use it as a distortion meter to test audio amplifier. The distortion of the Cosmos ADC is over killed for most application.
 

Offline kirk specTopic starter

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Re: Audio via Sound Card Line In and Spectrum Analyzer
« Reply #17 on: July 12, 2023, 10:27:33 am »
Why didn't you guys get the E1DA Cosmos ADC as some kind of sound card? How does it differ to a sound card?

Cosmos ADC doesn't have mic preamp, that mean you just can't plug a mic direct into it. It will not work AT ALL. You will need a separate mic preamp like the Cosmos APU.
The functionality of the Cosmos ADC is more likely a audio ADC evaluation board rather than a commercial sound card.
Some audio hobbyist mainly use it as a distortion meter to test audio amplifier. The distortion of the Cosmos ADC is over killed for most application.

I don't need a preamp, because my line out already has about 1 Volt output directly to Line In of the Cosmos ADC.

If the Cosmos ADC has this spec:

THD+N   0.00007% @ 1kHz, @ -5dBFS, SR 48kHz, BTW 20Hz - 20 kHz.

And it's at $150. Why can't other sound cards more expensive match the spec?

And if you have Line Out already without needing any Mic preamp Why can't hobbyists use it as sound card/interface at all?
 

Offline kirk specTopic starter

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Re: Audio via Sound Card Line In and Spectrum Analyzer
« Reply #18 on: July 12, 2023, 10:45:50 am »
Why didn't you guys get the E1DA Cosmos ADC as some kind of sound card? How does it differ to a sound card?

Cosmos ADC doesn't have mic preamp, that mean you just can't plug a mic direct into it. It will not work AT ALL. You will need a separate mic preamp like the Cosmos APU.
The functionality of the Cosmos ADC is more likely a audio ADC evaluation board rather than a commercial sound card.
Some audio hobbyist mainly use it as a distortion meter to test audio amplifier. The distortion of the Cosmos ADC is over killed for most application.

I don't need a preamp, because my line out already has about 1 Volt output directly to Line In of the Cosmos ADC.

If the Cosmos ADC has this spec:

THD+N   0.00007% @ 1kHz, @ -5dBFS, SR 48kHz, BTW 20Hz - 20 kHz.

And it's at $150. Why can't other sound cards more expensive match the spec?

And if you have Line Out already without needing any Mic preamp Why can't hobbyists use it as sound card/interface at all?

It looks like the E1DA Cosmos ADC are already sold out everywhere?

https://www.linsoul.com/products/e1da-cosmos-adc?variant=42117413142745

They discontinued it somehow? Why?

If I get one and connect it to spectrum analyzers, I can get output in real time with the real time input, right?
 

Offline radiolistener

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Re: Audio via Sound Card Line In and Spectrum Analyzer
« Reply #19 on: July 12, 2023, 10:55:17 am »
I want my analog audio to be inputted into a PC spectrum analyzer software. What is the best sound card/interface/system that can do this with minimal distortion? Is this related to Total Harmonic Distortion? I don't want the frequency of the original analog audio to be altered. So I want it to pass through the line in and into the PC software itself. If the recording quality of a sound interface or card is good. Does it automatically mean the Line In audio would be good too. What is the relationship between recording and pass through (what is the right term?)

And what sound card/interface/system can you recommend?  Thank you.

if you don't want to original signal frequency be altered, you're needs sound card with ADC that has good enough dynamic range and linearity.

The main parameters which you needs to check is dynamic range (SNR), third-order intermodulation distortion (IMD3) and total harmonic distortion (THD).

For a good result you're needs to use professional sound card with very high dynamic range, usually they based on modern 24 or 32 bit ADC which SNR reaching up to 120 dB and even better.

For example, if you don't expect very expensive top performance, Creative E-MU 1212M is a good working horse with 24-bit ADC.

Avoid soundcard with switching mode DC/DC converters, because they have noise. Also avoid cheap portable USB sound card because they have dirty power and bad filtering and shielding
« Last Edit: July 12, 2023, 11:11:20 am by radiolistener »
 

Offline radiolistener

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Re: Audio via Sound Card Line In and Spectrum Analyzer
« Reply #20 on: July 12, 2023, 11:21:27 am »
It looks like the E1DA Cosmos ADC are already sold out everywhere?

https://www.linsoul.com/products/e1da-cosmos-adc?variant=42117413142745

They discontinued it somehow? Why?

Manufacturing such devices is expensive and complicated, it requires manually tested expensive ADC chips which is hard to buy. It's more easy to sell cheap Chinese crap... :)


But you can try Chinese version: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003798311819.html
« Last Edit: July 12, 2023, 11:25:30 am by radiolistener »
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Audio via Sound Card Line In and Spectrum Analyzer
« Reply #21 on: July 12, 2023, 12:11:59 pm »
Why didn't you guys get the E1DA Cosmos ADC? How does it differ to a sound card?

The connectors on the front.

The "ADC" part will be the same.
 


Offline dobsonr741

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Re: Audio via Sound Card Line In and Spectrum Analyzer
« Reply #23 on: July 12, 2023, 12:16:20 pm »
Quote
I can get output in real time with the real time input, right?

Any sound input/output on the PC will be real time - they are streams of data with a few millisecond latency.

Any good spectrum analysis software will take your real time audio stream, take out the FFT buffer size chunks, do the analysis and refresh your screen. 64K buffer size with 48KHz sample rate it will refresh your display every 1.36 seconds. It’s up to you to define sampling rate and buffer size for the analysis.
 

Offline kirk specTopic starter

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Re: Audio via Sound Card Line In and Spectrum Analyzer
« Reply #24 on: July 12, 2023, 12:42:32 pm »
This is the E1DA Cosmos ADC noise floor

https://linustechtips.com/topic/1400393-e1da-cosmos-adc-noise-floor/



What free software can display that too so I can try my notebook internal audio ADC. I tried it on my android cell phone. It needed to have the microphone recording on before the Spectroid app would even run. In the PC/Windows. Do you also need the input on to run it? but the noise floor above was with the input all off. Please give example what  you do to get the noise floor in your PC, and the software  you used. Ty.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2023, 12:50:24 pm by kirk spec »
 


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